Hitting the plateau

[localflighteast]

not literally !
I'm working on my PPL, have about 15 hours at the moment.
Seem to have hit a bit of a plateau, learningwise in the circuit.

Normally I can see the progress I've made form one lesson to the next but the last couple of lessons , I don't see any major improvement.

My instructor seems to think I'm doing fine ( funnily enough I believe him a lot more when he's telling me what I'm doing wrong, than when he's telling me I'm doing well!)

I guess this happens to everyone, i just wondered if anyone has any magic words of wisdom?

There's just sooo much to do in such a short space of time. If i get one thing right then I seem to forget about something else:{

[Genghis the Engineer]

Trust your instructor !

Odds are he's looking for consistency at this point. That can take a little while to build up.


G

[localflighteast]

yep I know. I guess ;)

My landings are a touch on the "firm" side at the moment :*

I think i'm coming back down to Earth ( no pun intended) from the fact that personally I've achieved so much up until this point.

A year ago I was so scared of turbulence that I needed therapy to get on an airplane ( long story, not that interesting). Now I'm flying one!

Now I'm just bashing out those circuits (literally with my landings!)

[Pace]

Local

Landings are all about confidence! You think firm then thats what you will expect and get!
Its strange but even us old hands have a spate of absolute greasers where you hardly feel the aircraft touch!
Then out of the blue they go! Still good landings but not quite the greasers!
What causes that?
It can be the tiniest hesitation from one landing which did not come up to what you wanted and then the rest do not quite come up to what you want for a while.
Then you come back to a phase of greasers again.
In your case as a Student its quite normal the only difference being that your variations are more pronounced than us more experienced guys.
Its that grain of confidence no more no less.
Relax and enjoy it and you will soon move through that phase to advancing again!
The learning graph is always up but expect dips and plateaus in that increasing graph.

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

There's just sooo much to do in such a short space of time.

The time, is what you define, you're not being rushed - don't rush yourself. 45 hours is a small fraction of the time it takes to learn to fly a plane through its reasonable envelope of capability and conditions. 45 hours seems to be the minimum the authorities place, but believe me, that at 46 hours and a wet ink PPL, you're still at the beginning of learning - you're simply safe, and compliant with the standards for skill.

The first part of the learning curve is steep, then you reach your plateau. That's when familiarity make's it look like you're not learning so fast. You're still learning - after 36 years of flying, I am....

[localflighteast]

DAR , I have no illusions about completing my PPL in 45 hours that's for sure.

I'll get it when (or if) I get it.
It is the circuit I was referring to , so much to do. I'm barely comfortably established in the climbout before it sems I'm doing my landing checks.

I'm working on the relaxing ( is that an oxymoron?) I seem to anticpate the touchdown by tensing my arms and screwing up my face! Not the best approach I know.

I did manage one reasonable landing last time.Nothing more scary than looking over and seeing your instructors hands are no where near the controls

[Pace]

Nothing more scary than looking over and seeing your instructors hands are no where near the controls

That should be the most reassuring sign of all as it means the instructor is happy with the way the approach is looking and with you???
RELAX RELAX RELAX and do some positive talking to yourself " I am in control not the aircraft and I am going to really enjoy this".

Pace

[Miken100]

Hello Local.... What you are describing is completely normal... I assume you haven't solo'ed yet and if so this phase does need you to take a lot on board.... be patient; trust your instructor and keep it up... things will suddenly start to fall into place.

I remember this only too well (15 years ago now) and felt exactly very similar to the way you describe (no t'interweb so no Pprune help in those days - lol)

Hang on in there and very best wishes... Mike

[Fuji Abound]

First, its perfectly normal.

Second, it takes time for things to become automatic. You can help yourself by making absolutely certain you know all the checks, speeds, calls etc off pat, keep rehearsing them in your mind.

Third, and for what its worth, i did my multi rating with a few thousand hours in hand on single engine aircraft. I was totally comfortable in the circuit, or so i thought. The first couple of sessions in the twin took be right back to my initial ppl. The speeds were higher and it was easy to get behind the aircraft. Inexcusably i hadnt learnt the drills and power settings so not only was i struggling with the extra engine but also a host of new procedures. I put that right and everything else quickly fell into place.

So dont worry it will come be diligent and be patient.

[Pilot DAR]

Nothing more scary than looking over and seeing your instructors hands are no where near the controls

Haha,

A long time ago, with very little tail wheel time, I asked a very experienced pilot I knew, with a PA-18, if I could fly a few circuits with him, to improve my tailwheel skills. "Sure" he said, "let's go". I asked if he wanted me in the front seat, or back. He thought for a moment, and said the front, so in I got.

After a I flew few adequate circuits, I shut down, and we got out. It was then that I noticed that he had no controls in the back!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I guess this happens to everyone
Yes.
There's just sooo much to do in such a short space of time.
Yes, I remember circuits being like that - how on earth do you get everything done in five minutes?

Now the same five minutes is plenty long enough to chat to passengers, show them the sights etc.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Nothing more scary than looking over and seeing your instructors hands are no where near the controls
One of my mates is sometimes a nervous passenger. Took him flying in Oz, with an instructor because it wasn't worth getting an Oz licence whilst on a short holiday.

So I explained: "What you need to do is look at the instructor's hands. If they're in his lap, then there isn't a problem and you're perfectly safe; if they're on the controls then there isn't a problem and you're perfectly safe."

He did understand!

[localflighteast]

well thanks for the encouragment

just heard from my instructor so I'm going to head down shortly and throw the plane round the circuit for an hour or so!

let's see how many landings I can actually get in this time.

Last lesson had three go arounds, One for a medevac chopper. One because i was practically over the threshold and still didn't have my landing clearance (sod's law as soon as I pushed the throttle in, ATC remembered about me) and one dodgy approach.

It was busy that day, at one point I was #4 for the runway and I don't think I flew more than one "standard" circuit, all the others I had to extend various legs or switch runways or both

I'll let you know how it goes

[lenhamlad]

All those go-arounds add to the experience. As a recently qualified PPL I fully understand your frustrations. One thing I did was to suggest to my instructor that we go off and do some general handling - steep turns , introduction to stalls etc and then come back to the airfield for a circuit or two. Remember, as others have said, it is not a race and any time in the air is useful, even if you do not think you have learned anything from that particular lesson. Subconciously you have. Took me nearly eighty hours toget to my skills test but did I care? Not one bit. I enjoyed the experience as much as I do now that I have my licence. Happy landings.

[funfly]

My instructor who shall be nameless (Jerry Bream) always insisted on me taking a boiled sweet from him while I was in the middle of the most complicated manoeuvres - like on finals etc. How could I take, unwrap and put in my mouth a sweet when my hands and legs were doing fifty to the dozen? What a marvellous man.:D
By the way, my lovely wife just couldn't crack landing so the instructors wisely passed over that and finished the rest of the techniques, she finally went solo after about 75 hours by which time she had covered nearly everything else. If you get stuck with one thing it's often wise to put it to one side and return at a later stage - methinks.

[Pace]

After a I flew few adequate circuits, I shut down, and we got out. It was then that I noticed that he had no controls in the back!

Pilot Dar

There used to be an old joke about a wartime instructor who taught on and old bi plane.
His trademark before sending a pilot solo was to remove the rear stick and on final throw it out telling his student to follow everything he had been shown and land the plane.
One student knowing about this smuggled a spare stick into the aircraft.
The instructor did the same routine throwing out his control stick with the usual comment of following everything he had been shown.
"OK Sir said the student and threw the spare stick he had concealed out of the aircraft. :ok:
I believe the instructor bailed out leaving an amused student who landed

Pace

[Big Pistons Forever]

It is not unusual to hit a plateau presolo when you get to the circuit. One of the causes is insufficient time spent on the fundamental flying skills of holding the rich attitude for the desired flight condition and/or insufficient emphasis on trimming the aircraft. Too many instructors rush their students to the circuit and then spend many frustrating hours making no progress, The circuit is not the place to learn ex 5-9.

One strategy I have used successfully is instead of starting a lesson right into the circuit,I go to the practice area and practice flying a circuit at altitude ( ie the runway is North at 2000 feet AGL and the circuit is at 3000 feet). This lets you practice the rhythm of the circuit without the pressure of the runway looming in the windshield. Concentrate on flying "finals" on speed with a stable pitch attitude and in trim. Now when you go back to the circuit you will be warmed up and ready to go :ok:. It is also a good exercise as it makes you practice a go around.

[Genghis the Engineer]

It is not unusual to hit a plateau presolo when you get to the circuit. One of the causes is insufficient time spent on the fundamental flying skills

I'm starting to build up some reasonable experience now as an instructor; as a CRI rather than FI only dealing with people who already hold some form of pilots licence.

I've come to realise that a lot of pilots *think* they should be going into the circuit as soon as possible, but lack the skill and familiarity with the aeroplane to use that effectively.

So, moving into the circuit early can be a retrograde step and serve to mess up a pilots confidence and skill in the aeroplane,rather than improve it.

That, hopefully, does not apply to the OP, but it has certainly applied to several pilots I've taught.

G

[Pace]

G

As long as its not a busy airfield where you will annoy the sh+t out of other pilots the instructor could start with wide circuits and long final to give the student the thinking space they need.
As they get used to that tighten the circuits up!
A longer final will also allow the student time to stabilise the approach as well as his mind !

Pace

[mad_jock]

As long as its not a busy airfield where you will annoy the sh+t out of other pilots the instructor could start with wide circuits and long final to give the student the thinking space they need.

Nah pace everything and I mean everything should be done away from the circuit until you only need to do a bit of RT work, situational awarness and the waggling the peddles and controls at the bottom for landing.

I completely agree with BPF that going into the circuit before the student has cracked the preceding lessons just causes the whole thing to become a torture for both student and instructor.

Giving wide circuits etc is just compensating to the fact the student is struggling with S&L etc. The circuit is not the place to be teaching and working on S&L and trimming.

[Pace]

MJ

I am not and instructor so bow to the superior knowledge of you and BPF : ) plus tend to agree keep the buggers away from
The circuit and banish them to designated disused airfields

Pace

[mad_jock]

You don't even need a disused or even get below 1000ft.

You just pick a field/feature as an aiming point and fly a circuit round that starting at 2000agl and going around at 1000ft agl.

Do a couple and then move somewhere else if you have a load of moaning locals.

[Genghis the Engineer]

You don't even need a disused or even get below 1000ft.

You just pick a field/feature as an aiming point and fly a circuit round that starting at 2000agl and going around at 1000ft agl.

Do a couple and then move somewhere else if you have a load of moaning locals.

Exactly what I've been doing lately, the results have been good - much better than trying to do this in the circuit.

G

[popstar]

Hey guys, can I just butt in to say "what a pleasant read this thread is".
All positive help to the new pilot. Wish more threads were like this.
Keep it up.

[Fuji Abound]

Don't worry it wont last. ;)

MJ - you don't know what you are talking about, utter tosh. ;);)

[riverrock83]

You just pick a field/feature as an aiming point and fly a circuit round that starting at 2000agl and going around at 1000ft agl.

I believe there is a rocky knoll that is a similar shape to an airfield (although you couldn't land on it) not far from our training area (outside CAS) that is away from moaners so a number of instructors use it.

It has been known for multiple students to be "in the circuit" at the same time, but somehow calls of safetycom would still be wrong...

[localflighteast]

Well thanks for all the helpful comments
I don't think anyone is suggesting anything that my instructor hasn't or isn't trying!

As promised I'll let you know how yesterday went

Well it was challenging with a 8 gusting 12 knot crosswind
I think my circuits are improving , the climb out and crosswind and most of the downwind is ok

Landings are still a bit on the firm side but I managed an awesome side slip landing with no instructor assistance at all

Im stuck in a meeting at the moment but I will reply more fully later

Thanks guys

[I Love Flying]

A quick tip, in case you haven't been given this already by your instructor...

I was advised to practice my downwind checks whilst driving. Disclaimer - Obviously use your common sense about where you choose to practice this, especially at first! Once I got the hang of going through the checks and driving at the same time, I then tried to envisage where I needed to look to check an instrument and moved a hand in the general direction of where, say, the flaps would be. Finally, I then did the same with the radio playing quietly in the background, to get used to 'flying', performing my checks, and having to deal with background noise too. For me personally, it really helped. :ok:

[Big Pistons Forever]

Landings are still a bit on the firm side


There is a widely held fallacy that the only "good" landings are the ones where you are hardly feel the wheels touch. There are plenty of instances (eg contaminated runways, strong/gusty crosswinds, short fields) where a landing "a bit on the firm side" should in fact be the desired result.

For someone just learning to fly do not concern your self with firm touchdowns, and obviously I don't mean when the airplane comes crashing out of the sky, I mean the one where there is a distinct bump as the wheels touch.

What you should be IMO grading your landing on is the following.

1) Did I fly a nice stable approach

2) Was the touchdown at the correct attitude to get a proper main wheel first touch down. You should give yourself a big smack up side the head if the aircraft touches on all 3 wheels at the same time or worse nosewheel first :uhoh:

3) Was the aircraft straight when it touched. If it gave a little lurch to one side when the mains touched it was not straight.

4) Was the touchdown on the centre line and near the chosen touchdown spot

As an instructor I would much rather see a good solid stable approach with the flare commenced at the right spot and the nose rotated to the correct touchdown attitude which is held steady until the wheels touch. This will result in the aircraft likely dropping the last couple of inches for a safe firm landing.

What I do not want to see is a pumping of the wheel as the student tries to feel for the ground trying for the hero pilot "grease job" landing

[localflighteast]

I love flying - my instructor knows I don't drive - now do you see what the poor guy is up against ;-)

Bpf - some good points to think about , but one of my landings near knocked my headset off :)
So still a bit firm for anyone's liking :)

[Pace]

Localflighttest

I have a feeling that in your landings you are allowing yourself to be more if a passenger than being in control of the aircraft!
You are getting near the ground wound up and hoping it will all work out ok?rather than controlling the aircraft and making it do what you want!
It is quite normal to be apprehensive and regard the landing as something that your glad when it's over rather than enjoying the experience of landing!
Get your instructor to take you to a long airfield !
Fly the aircraft up the runway maybe at 6 feet in the landing configuration but don't land!
When you are comfortable being near the ground just reduce the power you need to fly level and pitch the nose a tad!
Then watch how easy it is for the aircraft to sink onto the runway and land!
As you feel it sinking try and stop it by adding more back pressure until
You feel the tires touch,
A great exercise for being near the ground and for seeing how easy it really is !
It is a confidence thing no more no less and we have all been there at one time or another,
Most of all change your mindset and enjoy that part don't dread it !

Pace

[localflighteast]

Pace ,
I really like that idea, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I will admit that the runway thing scares me in that it is pretty much surrounded by water and not much room for error ( busy-ish airspace too)

I think I am improving (my instructor says I am)but I don't think the crosswind helped much last night. Although the biggest improvement from my point of view is I did actually feel the stuff that the instructor was pointing out to me.

I'm not sure how to describe what I mean but it was really the first time that I'd "felt" the plane sink or "felt" the crosswind push me to the side.
I guess the next phase is working on what do do when I feel those things.

It'll come slowly I'm sure . I just really appreciate the advice. I think I'm quite a high maintenance student in that I need constant reassurance that I'm doing OK;)

[localflighteast]

Pace – I wanted to thank you for your detailed post and take the time to answer your questions as I really appreciate what you are trying to say
1) Did I fly a nice stable approach – I’ve quickly come to realize that crappy approaches make crappy landings. If I maintain circuit height all the way in my downwind, then usually my approaches are fairly OK. I can certainly judge if I’m too high or low and take appropriate action. I’m usually trimmed OK for the correct speed as well

2) Was the touchdown at the correct attitude to get a proper main wheel first touch down. You should give yourself a big smack up side the head if the aircraft touches on all 3 wheels at the same time or worse nosewheel first - I’ve never done nosewheel first – sometimes my landings are a bit flat though , last time I may have overcompensated

3) Was the aircraft straight when it touched. If it gave a little lurch to one side when the mains touched it was not straight. – usually OK here – managed a good crosswind , one wheel then the other last night

4) Was the touchdown on the centre line and near the chosen touchdown spot – I’m working on the centre line thing. I don’t seem to be able to pick a good visual clue to line us up straight – instructor says use rivet line , but when he showed me as a demo , it didn’t seem to line up for me. I’m always down in the first third of the runway
Anyways thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts I appreciate them all

[Pace]

Localflighteast

Firstly some of the comments above were from BPF not me : )
BPF knows what he is talking about so take his advice.
But really do relax ; ) we all have glitches we have all experienced what you have at your stage.
Above all this is a forum! We do not know you or how you fly! Only your instructor knows that so talk to him! He really actually sounds pleased with your progress so maybe you are being hard on yourself ?
Above all it costs money ! Your money! So enjoy it

Pace

[flyinkiwi]

OP, you appear to have all the drive and enthusiasm you need to go all the way with this flying thing, all that is required is a touch of patience. Some aspects of flying can only be learned by repetition, and that takes time. You have plateaued because this is a stage in your flying where you simply need time in the cockpit for everything your instructor has taught you so far to come together.

Trust all the other PPRUNERS and I when we say just relax and enjoy your flying, and it will come in good time.

[localflighteast]

Right, so another lesson booked for Saturday. I think i'm just going to go with the flow and see what happens. Just concentrate on flying the plane and see how I go.

Going to stop obsessing over this now, just feeding my lack of confidence.
I will keep you informed of my progress though :)

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to pass on their words of wisdom

[funfly]

Pace makes a good point.
Fly in front of your aircraft, never let it get ahead of you.

[MacSki]

I know exactly what you are going through as I went through it myself earlier in the year. Good news is I have two photographs on my wall, one of me just having done my first solo and the other passing my skills test so I am now a holder of a new PPL.

Like you I put a lot of pressure on myself to get it right when hour after hour of circuits went by without success never seemingly able to repeat the good parts of the previous circuit.

What I learnt which may be of use....
1. Trust the instructor, they have done this so many times before
2. Check your seat height, a very small adjustment upwards in my case did help although didn't solve the problem.
3. Go to another airfield. This helped me enormously, my first solo was not done at my home airfield but another a short flight away. This seemed to work because it was an easier runway to land on (centrally aligned, no hump in the middle) but I think more importantly no negative memories of failed attempts.

What I did also learn was through the 'failed' circuits even though I wasn't getting the landings I needed/wanted I was getting airmanship, learning how to deal with other flyers in the circuit not following local procedures, how to recover when I'd got myself into difficulties etc.

I do feel whilst I wouldn't have chosen that path it made me a better pilot overall and I still treat landings with the full respect they deserve.

[peterh337]

Perhaps 2 points:

Try to fly more often than once a week (if not doing so already). If flying just once a week, a lot of currency is being constantly lost. If you have just 1 day a week free, try doing 1 flight in the morning and 1 in the afternoon.

On landings, as BPF says, a firm landing is fine and is indeed more or less necessary if landing on a short-ish runway or in any sort of crosswind. IMHO the most important thing is to fly a good approach trajectory, so work hard on maintaining the "picture in the window" despite turbulence, wind shear, and watch the airspeed at the same time, all the way down.

[mad_jock]

Just to add peter is not an instructor either.


Sod the airspeed keep the picture. Once you get past the learning how to molest the aircraft bit please do listen to peter on how to get from A to B.

[peterh337]

Sod the airspeed keep the picture.

Are you completely mad, MJ?

Sure I am not an instructor but I am still alive after 12 years of doing this, and have never bent anything :ugh:

[Pace]

Peter

I do not think MJ was talking about down the approach but in the actual landing phase.
Pinning your reference speed until you get to placing the aircraft in the landing attitude should mean that unless you have flared ridiculously high speed is no longer the prime reference attitude is.

Pace

[alexbrett]

Possibly a bit late but hopefully as a bit of encouragement to the OP I felt I was in a similar situation at the end of last week - I'd got the first part of the circuit OK, and my approaches were in general reasonable (not totally consistent but the bad ones were becoming rarer and rarer), but I just couldn't seem to master the flare and hold off - I'd either do it far too early and have to go around, or do it at the right time but still have power on and thus balloon and go around, or do it late and bounce and go around, and this didn't seem to be improving from lesson to lesson making me wonder if I'd ever get it.

However, this week it was all change - I had a lesson on Thursday where out of the blue I managed 3 perfectly safe landings in a row, with the instructor not having to do anything so clearly something had just clicked. I had another lesson on Friday where I was able to repeat it, and it then came as rather a surprise to me when the instructor then sent me on my first solo, so in two lessons I went from wondering if I'd ever get it and thoughts of giving up starting to stir to going solo and still having a grin on my face now!

[peterh337]

Pace - yes; during and after the flare, airspeed is not controlled anymore. But it has to be controlled before than, otherwise the bit that follows is not going to work :)

We probably have too much Iphone-style writing here :)

[24Carrot]

And talking of attitude, I would +1 the previous advice to check your seat height, and consider using a cushion. The more ground you can see over the nose, the more attitudes you can monitor.

"Keeping the picture" only works if you can, er, see the picture!

PS I'm not an instructor either.
PPS I hope "+1" doesn't count as "iPhone writing"!

[Fuji Abound]

We all know that landings are all about visual cues. They take time to learn because the visual cues are short lived (it happens quickly) so it takes a lot of landings for the brain to sort out whats going on. (some take longer than others ;)).

Give the brain more exposure to the visual cues and you will learn quicker.

Find a long runway and a good instructor, fly the approach, settle almost into the flair, but dont land, just hold it off for as long as the runway safely permitts. Do that half a dozn times. Next have your instructor land on two wheels, nose high and wheel the aircraft down the runway without letting the nose wheel touch.

You will be amazed how much more quickly your brain learns
the visual cues. Landings will seem easy.

When they do forget all about stabilised approaches. Intentionally throw in some really horrible ones, too high, too fast, hot and high, its your job to recover. Its amazing what can be recovered and it makes a stabilised approach and landing seem a sinch the next time you fly the approach accurately.

[Pace]

Peter

airspeed should be controlled so that you arrive at your reference speed at the right point just to confirm that does not mean you have to fly your reference speed all the way down the approach as some do ;)
But whoops we are in the student pilots forum so cannot discuss things like different approach techniques what constitutes a stable approach etc until after nine pm :)

NB

Fuji and Peter are another two to be added to the list of to be listened to with lots of knowledge and experience :ok:

Pace

[peterh337]

I hope "+1" doesn't count as "iPhone writing"!

No; it shows you spend way tooooo much time on FB or Tw**tter :)

[24Carrot]

it shows you spend way tooooo much time on FB or Tw**tter

Is that where it comes from?:eek: I had wondered;)

[mad_jock]

Peter there are some of us that make students fly the whole circuit with no instruments. The student actually is more accurate with thier speed than when the instruments are uncovered.

Needle chasing and not flying an attitude is quite a common fault.

[Pace]

The student actually is more accurate with thier speed than when the instruments are uncovered.

MJ

How do you know that if you cannot see the things ;)???

Yes excellent exercise keep the bugg+rs looking out and feeling the aircraft rather than thinking they are flying MSFS:E

Pace

[localflighteast]

Just a quick reply
Heading out the door shortly for another lesson
Runway switch this time (08 rather than 26)
Maybe 8 will be my lucky number

I've got a couple of strategies planned
One - sod it , I used to enjoy this flying lark
, so I'm going to go out and have some fun, inevitably there will be a landing but maybe if I'm having fun I'll relax a little and land it

Two - work on getting the approach right every time , if I concentrate on that then maybe the landings will be easier

Three - if I'm still frustrated after today's lesson then I'm going to ask my instructor to move onto something else , maybe revisit stalls , spirals , spin recovery etc

Or maybe even some Nav and cross country
Just to enjoy it again !

A couple of remarks about visual clues , a couple of you mentioned cushions
I'm very short , I already use two cushions behind me ( otherwise I can't get full rudder deflection) and one underneath me !

Also I really don't instrument watch, it's something I did at the start of my training so worked hard to correct
Once I've turned base I judge my altitude purely by visual clues for example

The winds look very light today so fingers crossed and I'll report back!

[mad_jock]

One - sod it , I used to enjoy this flying lark
, so I'm going to go out and have some fun, inevitably there will be a landing but maybe if I'm having fun I'll relax a little and land it


That is exactly what you need to do. But you also have to have the same attitude when your doing circuits. When you start to relax and have a laugh is when everything seems to slow down and it just starts working.

The type of cushions makes a difference as well in my expernece, the ones off your sofa arn't that great for some folk. Firmer medical type cushions like what you can get off wheel chairs seem to work better.

And pace apart from the fact I know what the speed of the aircraft is without looking at the ASI you can see it if you really must if you put the post it note vertically, with the flap open to you :-P but as the whole lot was usually covered with a chart that wasn't an option. MSFS must have cost students a fortune over the years.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Localflighteast

Good Luck ! and don't worry, the good news is it will all come together.......the bad news is it doesn't matter how long you fly there will still be those days where you make a Hound Dog (or Fox Hound for you Brits) landing.....that's when the tyres go YELP, YELP, YELP :O

[Big Pistons Forever]

MSFS must have cost students a fortune over the years.

Amen to that. I just cringe when I hear "I have been practicing on MSFS" from an ab initio student :uhoh:

[mad_jock]

.the bad news is it doesn't matter how long you fly there will still be those days where you make a Hound Dog (or Fox Hound for you Brits) landing

Thats so true on the work machine if we do one we have to go and do the walk of shame and say sorry to the punters.

Did an approach into leeds on a horrible night and and raped the runway. Hostie once we had got the pax off announced "hey lads that last one managed to get my tit out my bra" Which would be funny normally but when translated into yorkshire dialect broke the "bloody hell" atmosphere in the cockpit and started the "I made a right pigs ear of that, what i reckoned went wrong was apart from being ****e......" "yep sounds about right, forget about it, leeds is a bastard when its blowing a gale"

But strangely its the calm dry days that I manage to pull off my least impressive arrivals.

[lenhamlad]

MJ

Hostie once we had got the pax off announced "hey lads that last one managed to get my tit out my bra"

Would it have been worth it?

[mad_jock]

She was just back off maternity leave so depends what your thing is.

She was a bloody good hostie to boot. Stopped flying when she had a second kid.

[mad_jock]

I don’t seem to be able to pick a good visual clue to line us up straight

This I have to work on a fair bit with FO's because of getting used to the seat change.

The way I teach it is to look at the sides of the runway in relation to each other.

If it appears that they are both pointing in the same direction move in the oppersite direction.

If one is straight and the other at an angle move a very little in the oppersite direction its leaning.

When one side leans one way and the other side leans the oppersite way you have pretty much cracked it.

Once in the flare its focusing on the end of the runway.

[localflighteast]

Well I promised you all an update after today's lesson

It was:mad: amazing :)

So different from last time. I was in total control of that plane. The ciruit was spot on , altitude maintained beautifully, circuit flown square, and it was FUN!!!!

my instructor said I showed "amazing resource management" in the cockpit. I knew what tools I had available to me and used them appropriately. I corrected fror the calm conditions by knowing what that'd do to my descent rate. When they sent me out on long final, I used my flaps at the right time instead of coming in too low. I realised that I had a longer time to drop the altitude.

The landings are improving. I actually believe that now. I ballooned on a couple of them , but now I am confident that I can SEE and FEEL what I did wrong. I don't know if this sounds bizarre but the landings aren't coming as a suprise to me anymore

Guess I'm back on the upward curve.

Appreciate the suggestions. My instructor helped a lot by showing me a wheelie down the runway to demonstrate what the nose up attitude should look like!
That was cool

Its also good that this thread got to three pages before we started discussing breasts. :D
At the start of my training I selected the sturdiest sports bra possible after discussing the issue with another girl at ground school we decided that :D" our landings were the only thing we wanted to worry about bouncing!"

Safe flying all

[mad_jock]

Glad you enjoyed yourself it makes a huge difference to the learning process.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I don't know if this sounds bizarre but the landings aren't coming as a suprise to me anymore
Yeah, that's it. It's the difference between waiting to see what the aircraft does (and being surprised by the result), and knowing what it's doing (even if you can't always get it to change its mind in time).

[Fuji Abound]

Glad you took my wheelie suggestion - it does work!

Try the hold off next time.

Strange but one test of a good pilot of any light single or twin is whether they can demonstrate a good wheelie - its definitely not appropriate in some circumstances or on some types but that is another story.

Well done.

[Armchairflyer]

(mad_jock):
MSFS must have cost students a fortune over the years.Would that be for hardware and add-ons or flying lessons? :E

My MSFS experience arguably was neither a burden nor an asset during my flying lessons. Strangely, learning to fly real airplanes made me a better armchair yoke-and-pedals pilot, but no handling skill transfer the other way around :O. Still, besides being fun and a cheap substitute drug, I also find it somewhat useful for headwork, flight planning, radio navigation, situation awareness and R/T if practiced with an "as real as it gets within limits" approach, and it's a nice opportunity to experience free and ultimately harmless but still instructive "oh sh..."-moments, too.

[Fuji Abound]

Armchairflyer - the problem is msfs pilots do have a significant tendendency to instrument fly because most screens neither give the 3D perception or the definition.

Its great for instrument flying on the other hand and with fewer caveats.

[mad_jock]

Its usefull once you have the basics of looking out the window and flying visually.

For an instructor its alot easier working with a blank canvas it always take longer/ more effort to untrain someone than it does to train them from fresh

[localflighteast]

I've only ever used MS Flight Sim once.
I lined it up at the end of the runway , attempted to take off and the next thing I knew I was impaled on top of the CN tower :p

The only thing I used it for after that was for going through my pre take off checklists, to familiarise myself with where everything was.

I probably could have achieved that with a decent computer screen wallpaper.

[Armchairflyer]

Gotta admit that it took (and still takes) me some conscious effort to keep my looking at the instruments to a minimum. Don't know if that's really an FS-induced thing, though (with my new MSFS PC including TrackIR and a big flatscreen one can actually look "outside" quite well :8), or rather my being leery of letting airspeed and altitude unchecked for some time, especially in maneuvring flight.

WRT wallpapers, to my knowledge several people actually hang cockpit posters at their walls for familiarisation and checklist flow practice (not so much for simple SEP aircraft, though).

[Pace]

Armchair

I was quite heavily involved in MSFS development a few years ago with Rob Young and RealAirSimulations.

The flight dynamics engine was atrocious and it was always a compromise to get half real flight dynamics.

We actually got one to spin (The first ever) But that was Rob Young genius!!
There are benefits to using MSFS but mainly for instrument work and preferably on auotpilot ;)

The weird thing is a few times flying a real aircraft in bad weather I had a false sense of security thinking that if I crashed on the runway a notice would come up saying that I had crashed and the game would reset!!!

Pace

[mad_jock]

Some Auld boy in the commitee decided that the club would benifit from a station with feeback joystick and pedals and MSFS.

Crap day sea Haar in and we decided that we should all learn to fly a helicopter. Tried and tried and apart from pulling full collective and as soon as it lifted sticking the nose down we crashed. Another instructor who had a few hours in a robbie came in at lunch same thing.

Thought sod it lets go and find the helimed pilot he looks pretty **** hot the way he handles that eurocopter we must be rubbish.

Same thing for him.

I used to used it to brief the instrument scan bit and vors and ADF but not the visual flying as Pace says.

Apart from that I never saw anyone use it apart from flying under bridges in a 747 and kids playing on it.

[Armchairflyer]

@Pace: Nice job then, they really make excellent add-ons (and the new Legacy is faaaaast, too :ok:). As for the "false security" of MSFS crashing, it's rather the other way around for me; for instance, barely failing to get "reset" on an attempted VFR approach in foggy weather or making an airplane-shaped virtual hole in the virtual runway (and killing my merited FSpassengers pilot and all pax on board) after defiantly ignoring ILS visibility minima did add some pseudo-firsthand reinforcement of the obvious message "don't f... with VFR into IMC" (and a tremendous sense of relief that it's just a PC game :O). And there have been many other quite instructive minor and major cock-ups during my sim hours which I don't want to repeat in a real airplane.

Full agreement with you and jock on the (lack of) usefulness for airplane handling improvement, though. MSFS (or any other PC sim, as good as the physics engine may be) is good for headwork (and R/T if you fly online) but useless for airwork IMHO
(although I like flying with Heidi in the A2A Cub :E).

[localflighteast]

Just to keep you fine folk up to date
Another good , solid lesson
Looks like I've broken through to the other side !

Did a couple of simulated engine failures today , made the runway both times !

[Pace]

@Pace: Nice job then, they really make excellent add-ons (and the new Legacy is faaaaast, too ).

Armchairflyer

I was the pilot who setup RealAirSimulations with Rob Young as well as working on Fly! with him.
I parted company with them due to my real world commitments and a disagreement on bringing in more graphic designers but full credit to Rob Young they continue to make the best addons for MSFS ;)

Localflighteast

congratualtions on breaking this hurdle ;) There will be others and other dips but the graph is always up even with the dips :ok:

Pace

[localflighteast]

Thanks Pace.

It's hard to describe how different I'm feeling inside about the whle process, much more confident. I was starting to think that maybe I'd reached the limits of what I could achieve.

My instructor summed it up nicely, he said "for the past two lessons, you've been in COMMAND of that airplane, rather than just flying"