View Full Version : It is acceptable....
...for a FTO to take almost two weeks (and counting) to gather the paperwork to send to the CAA once you passed your skills test, or am I justifiably getting frustrated?
Having never been here before, I don't really know if it's something they should do straight away, or if it's normal to take this long, but to me it doesn't seem reasonable or considerate towards a paying customer...
I work during away during the week so can only pick it up at weekends, so if it's not done by tomorrow then it'll be another week. The only reason given is that the CFI is spending all his time flying and will only be able to look at the paperwork when they are grounded due to WX.
Should I be getting cross with them by now?!
Duckeggblue
4th Aug 2012, 10:36
Hmmm.. Difficult one this.
If it's only a small training organisation I suppose they are up against it - especially as the poor weather has curtailed so much flying.
Maybe you have to turn the question around and ask whether you would have been happy to have your flying/skills test put on hold because the CFI was processing a licence application?
Hope it's all sorted for you soon Ds3 - if it's any comfort, I am near Cambridge & it's raining cats & dogs here at the moment. Every silver lining has a cloud? :)
Aspiring Pilot Alex
4th Aug 2012, 10:38
It doesn't sound like your FTO is very well organised. My school kept a file with my training records and straight after my skills test I filled in, along with the examiner, all the necessary paperwork (they even gave me a big brown envelope) to send off to the CAA. One hour after my test, all the necessary paperwork was in the post to the CAA recorded delivery and 2 weeks later I was flying with my mum as my first pax.
I think your CFI needs to pull his/her finger out.
Alex
I recall it took my CFI a while to do the relevant paperwork for my PPL, mostly because re-checking my logbooks etc took some time. If you did your test at a different school to the place where you did most of your training, the CFI will need to check and verify your training records from both establishments.
From the tone of a few of your posts, it sounds like you need to learn to be a little more patient. In aviation not everything happens straight away. The weather can be a real downer, lovely when you're working and rubbish on weekends, leaving you frustrated on weekends and not able to fly for weeks and weeks. The aircraft you had booked might go tech, and then maintenance takes a month longer than they had anticipated. CFIs and FIs are only human, and they have many customers at any one time, and sometimes they cannot revolve around any one person. And the CAA will take their own sweet time...
Getting angry or hassling people in any of these situations will not help anyone. I would suggest that if you were to phone the CFI on a weekday when flying trade is less intense, to ask when would be best to collect your stuff, at least he/she will be able to give you a deadline to work to.
Note that if you do delay submission until after sept 17th, you'll get a lifetime EASA licence as opposed to a 5 year JAA licence, which would have to be changed to an EASA licence within that 5 years at an additional cost. So there could be a benefit to a long delay.
@ Duckeggble, my skills test was delayed by over a month due to their disorganisation :D Since I posted, it's started raining heavily here too so you never know lol!
@fwjc, I think that's a little harsh without knowing the specifics of my situation. Over the last 6 months there have been some very significant delays at my FTO that have been entirely avoidable. I completely appreciate there are alwys delays such as weather and tech issues, however other delays can easily be mitigated by running a vaguely efficient organisation. The test was done at the same school where every hour of my training was flown eventually.
Naturally I have already phoned my FTO during the week, they have said they will call me back four times (make that five today) and haven't done so once, and the only message I have been given is that he is waiting for bad weather.
I know CFIs are only human, but at the end of the day surely part of their job is the paperwork as well as the flying and they should manage their workload around that, rather than relying solely on bad weather. They had almost £10k of my money over the last year and all I'm asking is for them to spend the last what, 30 minutes, hour? to get my paperwork together so I can move forward...
Very interesting point regarding delaying the application though. Will everything I've done by valid for the EASA license and it's simply a matter of waiting to submit it then? It'd be annoying having to wait until then, but I may have to do a bit more research to way up the benefits of doing so.
biffo28
4th Aug 2012, 11:13
My paperwork was ready for submission within an hour of my skills test.
Whopity
4th Aug 2012, 11:17
...for a FTO to take almost two weeks (and counting) to gather the paperwork to send to the CAA once you passed your skills test, or am I justifiably getting frustrated?It is not the FTOs responsibility to submit your application. Its your licence and your responsibility to apply for it. Did your driving school apply for your driving licence?
I would suggest that you are lucky that they actually did it for you!
Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, I'm not waiting for him to submit the application to the CAA. I'm waiting for him to give me the relevant paperwork so I can do so.
keith williams
4th Aug 2012, 11:33
If the school is running a worthwhile system of training records and keeping them up to date, then only one further piece of information will be required on completion of the skills test......the results of that test.
BEagle
4th Aug 2012, 11:38
As the Skills Test may only be attempted once all other training requirements have been met, I used to use the applicant's planning time to check that all his exams had been completed, marked and signed for by the examiners and that he had achieved all the hours requirements, Q X-C etc. Also that he had everything else which was needed to send off to the Authority assuming that his Skill Test was successful.
The FE charges a lot of money for sitting and watching a Skill Test. So it's only fair that he/she confirms that the applicant is able to take the test and that all paperwork is in order during the debrief. Those who just turn up, give the applicant the brief, take the cheque, fly the trip and then hand over the Skill Test report before disappearing are letting the side down, Whopity.
But why don't FIs check the application checklist with the applicant in advance? How often have simple things like proof of identity been overlooked? Or personal flying log books been in rag order. Or exams completed, but no examiner's signature in the PPL application form...:mad:
Quality assessment of a school should include noting the average time between an applicant passing the Skill Test and receiving the licence.
stevelup
4th Aug 2012, 11:52
My club had all my paperwork ready for the day I did my skills test and I took it away with me that day.
In my opinion, anything other than this is completely unacceptable.
Whopity
4th Aug 2012, 11:53
I agree with Beagle, I expect to see all the paperwork complete before conducting the test, if not, there is no test.
He did so some checks whilst I was preparing, such as checking I'd done adequate solo hours etc. And they know I've done all the exams.
This is why I'm getting a little frustrated. I don't really understand what it is they need to do that's taking so much time, other than gather a few bits together and sign a form or two.
Booze ups, breweries etc. etc. Stand over him while he does it, if he attempts to go home at the end of a day's flying without doing it, nail his feet to the floor.
It's years since I did my PPL but I wouldn't have tolerated a day's delay on the paperwork nor did I suffer it, I even had the same day for IMCR and IR.
Gertrude the Wombat
4th Aug 2012, 15:16
same day for IMCR
For IMCR the examiner and I sat down after the flight and filled in the form together. He'd checked all the paperwork in advance.
GingerFI
4th Aug 2012, 20:22
I would say not acceptable. Before an FI submits a student for test, they should make sure that all i's are dotted and t's are crossed so all the examiner should do is check and sign the application form, and check and sign the logbook. Then the student can (as long as the RT test has been done) chuck it all in an envelope and send it off, before having a well deserved cold beer. (and then spend 3 weeks getting angry at the CAA for relieving you of lots of money and then still taking lots of time to print several sheets of paper).
The CFI/examiner needs to make time to complete his/her paperwork, that is part of the job that you are paying (very good money) for them to do. I think a 2 week wait for them to even put a couple of signatures down and hand you back the paperwork is completely out of order!
Also £10,000 for a PPL, did you have any particular troubles/delays during your PPL? or are they simply ludicrously expensive?
stevelup
4th Aug 2012, 21:13
I'd name the school so everyone else can avoid them...
Well I'm glad most people seem to share my view. After expressing my frustration today I finally had a call back inviting me to go and and sit and wait in the clubhouse tomorrow until the CFI has a convenient moment between flights to get it sorted!
GingerFI, despite making great progress in 2011 I have suffered a lot of delays in 2012 - some of which are down to WX, but also to lack of instructors and disorganisation - I've flown about 60 hours many of which were down to my desire to keep flying, rather than actual progress towards my PPL. The club is reasonably priced at £136 dual.
I won't name the club in this thread, but I'm sure that if anyone local searched my previous posts they wouldn't have any trouble deducing where it was.
Ok so now I will name the club, which is Peterborough Sibson, and ask advice on if there is anyway to lodge an official complaint about an FTO?
Despite stern words and repeatedly broken promises my paperwork still hasn't been sent off, nor will the CFI give me the paperwork to send off myself. He hasn't given any reasonable excuse for this other than he still needs to do some work on it, and is too busy flying.
It's been three weeks now, not only am I getting seriously ****** off, I'm also starting to get very suspicious about why it's not being done. I don't believe there's any issue with my training per se, I've definitely done all the excercises, passed all exams, and got the temp slip to confirm I passed the skills test, but maybe there's any issue with the club or his licensing??
I need to move this forward, but short of violence (joking, obviously) or staging a sit-in protest I'm a little short on ideas - any suggestions welcome please...
S-Works
13th Aug 2012, 18:44
Nah, I assume it's Frank, he can be a bit of a cluster****.
Drop me a PM, I may be able to help.
cavortingcheetah
13th Aug 2012, 18:51
Facebook has always proved my friend when dealing with recalcitrant airlines.
Steve6443
13th Aug 2012, 20:15
Can only hope that others learn from this and don't go near this flying club with a 10 foot barge pole. I think it's despicable for this person to withhold the documents, I hope he explains himself - I for one would be extremely curious to find out his reasons for a 3 week delay. Simply saying that "he's too busy flying" is not acceptable, after all, he isn't flying 24 hours a day, and, as my old boss used to say - if there aren't enough hours in the day, use the night time as well.......
At the same time, does any one else know of a flying club near Stilton they can recommend, my cousin was looking to learn to fly but I'm damned if I will allow him to go through the same problems - I will be warning him against this outfit.
DS3: Thanks for naming the club, the only way to hit these groups is by naming and shaming them. When punters stay away, maybe then this CFI will realise that paperwork is not an unnecessary evil but his duty to comply with.
taybird
13th Aug 2012, 20:32
In their defence, I have never had any problems with Sibson. It's amazing how a single disgruntled customer's outpouring of frustration (btw I'm not judging whether it's justified or not, but it's clear you -are- frustrated and upset) can lead to an outright lynch mob when only one side of the story has been told.
Can we just get a sense of realism and understand that not everyone can be happy 100% of the time and schools don't get it right 100% of the time. One bad experience does not make a rubbish school. If there are lots of bad experiences, then maybe there's a case. And there may be other factors at play that might be temporarily having a negative effect on efficiencies at the school. Fact is that it's not a multinational corporation, and the industry is extremely challenging, and where we can I think we should be trying to support places like this to fix things rather than jump on a virtual bandwagon to destroy them. Ultimately it's shooting us in the foot too.
That's not to say that genuine scam artists or cowboy outfits shouldn't be highlighted and brought to task, but I genuinely believe this isn't the case for Sibson.
Steve6443
13th Aug 2012, 20:57
Taybird, I am more than willing to let Sibson state clearly and concisely why they have delayed doing what clearly should have been done - completing Ds3's paperwork to allow him to send off - but in my mind there is no real justification for it unless they have a problem which, 3 weeks later, should have been explained to Ds3 a long time ago.
What worms me the most is that Ds3 stated that he was told to go in on the 5th of August and wait for the CFI between flights, which, given Ds3's eagerness to get the paperwork completed, I presume he did and as he still didn't get the result he wanted meant a wait in vain. On top of this, someone has already stated that it was probably "Frank who is a bit of a cluster****" which shows that they know this person is "unreliable", to say the least.
I am not "upset" or "angry", as you claim, I am just stating an honest truth; the fact that you are defending them shows that either you have a lesser expectation towards "customer service" or you have a personal bias on the situation and are not reacting as a neutral outsider. To that extent, imagine this whole situation happened to someone else at a different club and your brother / cousin or best friend was looking to start learning there - would you keep your mouth shut or would you look to recommend them go to another club?
This is not in a "lynch mob" manner as you call it but if someone is going to part with his hard earned cash to learn to fly then once he has paid his bills, completed his exams, logged his hours and passed the skills test, he has a right to expect the paperwork to be finalised in a timely and prompt manner to allow him to realise his dreams - or do you disagree with my view of this whole sorry situation?
Duckeggblue
13th Aug 2012, 22:44
am more than willing to let Sibson state clearly and concisely why they have delayed doing what clearly should have been done -
We all post on a voluntary basis. But not everybody looks at PPRuNe, or would be comfortable to post - so the club in question may be oblivious to the fact that they are beng asked to justify their actions as Steve6443 is requesting or, as a
a service provider, they may find it more difficult to post with respect to a customer ( or at least I would hope so!) than a customer finds it to complain of them. This doesn't make them right, or wrong, just at a disadvantage in these circumstances.
ShyTorque
13th Aug 2012, 23:18
You could complain to Trading Standards.
Or, to the Small Claims Court and ask them to get your money back. ;)
taybird
13th Aug 2012, 23:52
Firstly, I do not fly from Sibson, and have no involvement with them other than having flown a couple of times with Frank a few years ago. So I'm afraid any accusation of being an "insider" will be a misplaced accusation. In my personal experience, Frank was a very good instructor, and I have heard the same opinion from more experienced aviators than me. Whether his paperwork is up to scratch, I don't know, but I also know several other instructors / examiners who are not always the most organised in paperwork terms. I also know bose-x, and if he says he can help, he probably will, but my sense is that he won't have intended the cluster comment to be seen as so derogatory. I am sure he can speak for himself.
Secondly, I am amazed at the aggressive nature of the demands that are being made by people who are not even the aggrieved party. It makes me sad to think that people can be so quick to judge on one person's story.
I do hope the paperwork can be sorted soon, whatever happens.
Obi_Wan
14th Aug 2012, 07:58
DS3,
You could just ask for your student records, which should contain all the relevant paperwork, and take them with your logbook down the road to Conington. The CFI there is very... thorough, so I doubt it'll be a quick visit, but he doesn't teach, so has the time for this, no matter how busy the club is.
Steve6443,
Conington must be closer to Stilton than Sibson. I think Stilton is one of the noise sensitive areas in Conington's circuit, it's that close. There's also Bourne a little further up the A1(M) depending where you are.
Old Ben
Chaps this thread wasn't intended as a witch hunt, nor a personal attack on anyone be they registered here or not. It's specific purpose was to ask for advice as to how I could expedite the paperwork that I rightly should have been given three weeks ago. There's some good people at Sibson and it's a great little airfield to fly out of, and you'll see from some of my other posts that whilst I have had some organisational issues there, topped off by this delay, I've also made some positive comments regarding the club.
Taybird, yes I am frustrated and upset - I've spend the last year and a lot of money working towards getting my license and I should be awaiting a courier knocking on my door now, not left wondering why my application hasn't been sent and whether it's even valid. I absolutely agree that Sibson aren't a cowboy outfit and wouldn't suggest that to anyone, but there is clearly a significant issue here which I hope no other students will have to suffer.
Sibson may not have the means to defend themselves on PpRuNe, however they have had more ample opportunity to provide me with a justifable reason why the paperwork isn't being sent off and have comprehensively failed to do so. Despite being left holding the ****ty end of the stick, my posts here will be factual and if Sibson provide me with a proper explanation I will gladly relay that here.
Steve6443, yes on the 5th I went and sat in the clubhouse for a couple of hours, gave the CFI a copy of my passport and medical, signed the relevant forms, and asked if I could then take the paperwork with me which was declined, with the only reason being he needed to do some more work on it first. I was assured then it would be posted on the 6th. It wasn't. I went up there to fly on on the 11th, complained, and was assured it would most certainly go on 13th. It didn't.
Are the CAA not interested in complaints regarding FTOs then, even when there's suggestion of a possible licensing issue that may need investigating?
Obi_wan - I've asked if I can take the paperwork myself a number of times but they won't give it to me...
lenhamlad
14th Aug 2012, 08:20
but there is clearly a significant issue here which I hope no other students will have to suffer.
What exactly are you missing out on DS3? I too had to wait a couple of weeks to get my paperwork together before I took it to the CAA myself. I then had to wait about three weeks for the licence to arrive. Meanwhile I continued to do as I had before - went flying with my instructor and did a few solos with the agreement of one of the available instructors on the field. Yes it is a bit of a pain having to wait for the licence but it will be worth it. I learnt a long time ago that what is important and urgent to me, almost is certainly not as important to someone dealing with a host of other things.
S-Works
14th Aug 2012, 08:39
I also know bose-x, and if he says he can help, he probably will, but my sense is that he won't have intended the cluster comment to be seen as so derogatory. I am sure he can speak for himself.
Certainly not, cluster**** just used as a humorous term, its a left over from my military days. Cluster**** is commonly used to descriptively generalise any situation with a scale of disarray. I would say three weeks to process paperwork fits that bill?
Frank is a great Instructor and honest as the day is long. But when it comes to organisation and especially paperwork he can be a bit of the aforementioned cluster****. :ok:
lenhamlad, it would seem you and I are the exception as most people appear to have been given their paperwork on the same day they passed their skills test.
I'm waiting to join a group which will allow me to fly the same (type of) plane at less than half the hourly cost, obviously I appreciate flying is and always will be an expensive hobby, but flying during these apparently unnecessary delays is costing me money.
Also, due to lack of availability of the club planes, I'm very restricted on when I can fly, and when I do get the opportunity it's only for a max of an hour so I'm restricted to a few circuits or a short local flight - whilst this is all good experience there are plenty of other things I'd like to be doing too.
BabyBear
14th Aug 2012, 09:00
Ds3, a note of support from me, you have been more than patient. Not only is leaving you hanging and lying to you poor customer service it is downright ignorant and p1ss poor business practice, irrespective of how good an instructor he might be.
For those paying customers that feel this sort of customer service level to complete a few forms (and being blatantly lied to) is acceptable then I wish you well as you will surely reap what you sow.:ugh:
BB
foxmoth
14th Aug 2012, 10:03
Not sure if it will work, but there is i believe a legal phrase "time is of the essence", if you give them a reasonable deadline (after this time I would say a week), and use this phrase then you can claim compensation (I would think at least all the money you have spent flying their aircraft above what you would have spent if it had been the group aircraft). I would suggest you go in and either use this, making sure they know the consequences and/or advise them you will go to trading standards. I am not a lawyer though so do not take this as gospel. I would normally be very reluctant to take things this far but it certainly sounds like you have been waiting long enough.
Good luck.
Steve6443
14th Aug 2012, 10:21
Taybird, nobody has accused you of being an insider, I simply said that either you have a lesser expectation on customer service - which might be the case - or you have a personal bias - ie, you have seen the better side of Sibson and see Ds3's treatment as a "trivial matter". In no way have I claimed you to be an insider. However I can assure you that delaying Ds3 in being able to send off his documentation to get his licence, that being told "you will have it tomorrow" yet a week later STILL waiting is - in my mind - neither trivial nor acceptable.
Nor have my words been aggressive - quite the contrary, I have simply stated what I believe to be the truth, that Ds3 has been extremely poorly treated and in no way whatsoever could or would I accept his treatment as acceptable hence will advise my cousin NOT to go near Sibson with a 10 foot bargepole - which I'm sure you'll agree is, as a concerned relative, my right. As you correctly say, this story might not affect me directly but if I don't do anything, it COULD. I for one do NOT want him to come back to me and say "why didn't you warn me this could happen" or get as frustrated as Ds3 is.
Thankfully others have PMd me to give me details of other clubs, I even got one very helpful PM which listed numerous reasons WHY I should choose club X over Sibson......
fattony
14th Aug 2012, 10:36
or staging a sit-in protest
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Go to the club and tell them in a friendly manner that you're not leaving without the completed paperwork in an envelope addressed to the CAA. Don't get dragged into an argument. Don't get angry with them. Just sit there until you get what you want. I'm sure that kind of insistence will get things moving.
niceday2700classic
14th Aug 2012, 11:13
None of us would tolerate this sort of shambolic performance in any other facet of life. Especially not when paying so much.
Sadly, this is aviation. The normal rules don't apply I'm afraid.
Aviation attracts 'characters' and it attracts people who are in love with flying and could never consider working in another industry. This means they rarely have experience of working in businesses outside aviation, where such a shambles would never be tolerated. To aviation 'lifers', this is normal.
BabyBear
14th Aug 2012, 11:33
To aviation 'lifers', this is normal.
If pilots adopt the above attitude and accept it then it will be normal and hell mend them.
Whether it was the norm or not, was it me I would be introducing new ideas and be receiving better customer service. Even if it did revert to 'normal' thereafter!
Absolutely no excuse or justification. It's an insult to the individual customer and stinks of I have your dosh now so you don't matter.
Ds3, best of luck, it appears to me you have been too civil over the matter.
BB
Final 3 Greens
14th Aug 2012, 12:58
Ds3
If I were you, I'd find a local solicitor, explain the situation to them and get them to write a suitable letter to the club, giving them a deadline to produce the paperwork.
I think that might get their attention and the money it costs you will be peanuts compared to the cost of learning to fly.
Steve6443
14th Aug 2012, 17:34
Although part of me agrees with you I just think it's totally unacceptable that he would have to take additional expense on himself by going through a lawyer to receive what he can rightly expect - the club wouldn't accept having to go through a lawyer to get their money so why should Ds3 have to resort to such tactics? I can only hope someone at Sibson reads this forum and realises the effect this sort of treatment will have on their own future business and gets to grips with their instructors PDQ....