What happens in an actual FL?

[PompeyPaul]

I've wondered this a few times. If it ever did happen to me I've presumed that I would just go through the drill, put down into a field, and retire for tea and crumpets.

I'm curious to know what it's actually like though, especially from relatively low hours (sub 200) PPLs

What happened when the donkey gave out? Did you react almost immediately? Did it take a while to sink in?

Did you trim out and then go through the restart? What did you think when the restart was unsuccessful ?

Did you then select the field and approach? Was it thought or was it all automatic? Did the aircraft fly the same as it would with power idle and trimmed out? Any noticeable differences?

I've always presumed I'd react to it almost as an automatic pilot. I'm simply there for the ride whilst my body goes through the drilled motions. I've practised it so many times it now feels as natural a reaction as breathing.

That said, I've never done it for real.....

[Jan Olieslagers]

What's an FL? Flight Level, no?

[PompeyPaul]

Like a pfl but without the "p" part

[mad_jock]

Forced Landing either powered or unpowered.

Most folk forget that you can still be forced to land with the engine working.

Perfectly acceptable doing a controlled landing into a field given the option of doing that or going into IMC untrained.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Cheese us! Why must folks use codes and abbreviations - and confusing ones at that - even in the subject of their outings?

[007helicopter]

Like a pfl but without the "p" part

whats a pfl ?

[mad_jock]

A practise FL :D

[stevelup]

whats a pfl ?

It's where you reach up for that handle above your head but don't actually pull it :ok:

[thing]

I've got around 150 hours powered. I've had carb ice which made the engine cough a bit. My immediate response (I'm talking about a second or so after the first splutter) was to decide the wind direction at surface and look for a good field, probably another five-ten seconds. I then selected carb heat as my first option which cleared it. It wasn't something I'd drilled myself on; I just did it. You can muck around with the engine, talk to people etc after you have decided where you're going if it all turns dog.

I'm not even sure that's the way I was 'formally' trained to do it now, but that's how I reacted.

Having said all that, I'm a glider jock so having a likely looking field in view is just something I do subconsciously.

[Pilot DAR]

It's where you reach up for that handle above your head but don't actually pull it

Hahaha! Touche'!

I've only done four actual forced landings. It was with great fortune that each one was into a field or runway from which the aircraft could be flown out following a resumption to airworthy, and no damage was done.

None were a problem, and two were much to low to consider attempts to restart. just get it back on the ground, and deal with it there. The most public was ice crystals in the fuel on a very cold winter day, sightseeing over downtown Toronto. Happily, when the 182 quit right beside the CN tower (really tall), I just told the Toronto Island Airport controller that I'd had an engine failure, and was landing right now, and he cleared the airport for me. Can't mess up the landing though, as 5 of the 6 undershoots/overruns end up in the lake.

I've been trying to cut down on real forced landings as I get older, and just practice.....

[DeltaV]

10 replies before someone turns up who's done it for real.

It sure gets your attention when it goes quiet. I've made 3, for real, engine quit, forced landings but like Pilot DAR I too was fortunate in being over or near a strip each time and just landed. On each occasion I was not high enough to consider an airstart so just focused on making the field.

Stopping the prop gives a better glide, the disc seems draggier than just the stationary blades.

[achimha]

I always keep track of landing fields, one my GPSes usually has the NRST page open. A general idea of the wind direction is always good to have, therefore one of the things I like most about my new Aspen is air data computer with the wind vector displayed all the time. Until some time ago, I used to verbally comment on forced landing options from time to time but this made my passengers freak out :)

[India Four Two]

I've had a real one while being checked out in a Motorfalke. The owner assured me there was enough fuel for a few circuits. However, the pitch attitude on the climb out uncovered the fuel line and the engine stopped.

The owner took over and we turned back and barely got the wings level before touching down on the adjacent runway on the triangular runway field (BCATP Innisfail, AB). There was no way we would have made it back to the runway we took off from, without bending the aircraft.

Two lesson learned from that. Always take more fuel and don't turn back until you are really high enough. There were plenty of fields ahead. I think the owner was motivated by not wanting to de-rig and hand carry the aircraft back to the airfield!

[foxmoth]

Twice for me, first was with power, classic of a forecast being more optimistic than it turned out, picked a nice big field with a farmhouse at the end for a cuppa while we waited the wx out and a bit of a non event apart from the field being very sticky for departure, so long that I tried to take off downwind (only 5kts or less) but the Pup150 accelerated to about 2kts below TO speed and would not go any faster, just stopped, turned into wind and all OK. The farmers wife was a bit surprised when we knocked on the door and said sorry, but we have left our aircraft in your field!
Second was a dH82a doing Aeros, but had made sure before starting that we were in a good area for fields, always a good idea if doing aeros in an aircraft with no starter motor!

[overandout]

When mine engine failed for real ...12000ft VMC on top of Alaska range of big mountains with only lakes and trees and rocks below..was not much fun. three things only to do.
don't panic
fly the plane accurately
be glad you did lots of PFLs in years gone by.

Still here to tell he tale

['India-Mike]

Be prepared for time apparently stopping. That's what really took me by surprise.

I've had one, sudden and without warning, engine failure. Literally BANG. Propeller stopped. My abiding memory is that I felt I could slide the hood back, step out onto the wing, walk out to the tip, have a look at the cowling and get back in. Then I snapped back into reality, time ran as normal and training took over.

I've had one other experience of time stopping like that, but it wasn't an engine failure - somebody tried to roll off the top of a loop with what I knew was too low an airspeed. I'd had my engine failure by then so knew what the time-stopping was.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Like Foxmoth I once had to put an L4 Cub into a field en-route not due to engine failure. It was big field, and the only problem was that the group of cattle up at the far end were curious and wanted to eat the Cub so I couldn't leave the aeroplane. My mate found help in the form of a local microlight pilot who pointed out a stock-free field nearby that he used regularly; smaller than 'my' field, but big enough. So I started up (which caused the cattle to run away) and took off to land in the other field.

The really hard thing I had to do was to actually make the descision to cease 'pressing on' and to land, with all the inconvenience that causes. The self-imposed pressure to defer the 'land' descison was almost overpowering, and one can see how some accidents happen when that descison is delayed too long.

The second occasion required no descison from me. Climbing out of Barton on 09 in the Chipmunk, the engine coughed as we crossed the fence. I made a mental note to stay in the overhead until I was entirely happy that the engine was OK, but a few seconds lated all hell broke loose. The engine started misfiring and vibrating, and lost a lot of power. Instinctively I lowered the nose and looked for somewhere to put it on the ground, but that climb out is notorious for being heavily built up. But despite the appalling cacaphony and vibration I found I could just maintain height (about 300 feet) so commenced a very gentle left turn to downwind.

Because of the noise, I couldn't hear the radio despite using headsets in the Chippy, so transmitted blind 'SL partial engine failure, immediate return to land'. This I repepated several times in case someome else was transmitting and my transmission hadn't been heard. The implied message was 'this is My runway and I AM LANDING; everyone else clear off!'

During the ever so gentle turn to downwind three white swans flew majestically past at our level going the other way. Both myself and Mike (in the back seat) remember this as quite surreal in the circumstances!

I hugged the northern boundary of the field until abeam the 09 numbers, pulled off what little power remained, while turning in to land, noting the fire truck following us along the runway. Once on the ground at the engineer's hangar the engine seemed not too bad, but a run up had it jumping and popping in the airframe. The diagnosis was old spark plugs breaking down at high power (the engine used an old-style plug, and even 'new' ones off the shelf were about 40 years old). We had the heads modded after that to take 'modern' plugs instead!

Looking back I realise I didn't have to make any descisions. It was 'Pavlov's dog' reaction; loss of power, lower the nose. No thinking about it (there isn't time when the aeroplane is slow and climbing and suddenly loses power - it HAS to be instinctive). And we were extremely lucky that it continued to give us enough power to remain airborn.

Chances are if you have an EFATO you'll simply revert to the many times you've practiced it, and your actions will be automatic. We were lucky in that I didn't actually have to pick a place to put us down off the airfield (very difficult off 09), so I'm still not sure if I'd handle that all right!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Firstly an engine failure does not necessarily lead to a forced landing, and a forced landing is not necessarily precipitated by an engine failure.

I've had half a dozen engine failures during low speed testing on homebuilts (always for some reason with Jabiru engines). On all but one of them, training kicked straight in and I restarted the engine, the last I was on short finals for a glide approach anyhow and there didn't seem much point so I just landed it.

I've done two precautionary / forced landings due to descending cloudbase and deteriorating visibility, both in flexwing microlights. Both times I set up a constant aspect circuit onto my preferred bit of field, and flew a low/tight/CA circuit from the start of the downwind leg to landing. Both were (relatively) uneventful - one into an empty meadow, one onto a golf course.

I've had an engine stop flying aeros in a Gypsy Major equipped Auster. I put the nose down to 110mph, fish-tailed a bit, and slowly advanced the throttle; the engine started happily at about 1/3rd throttle and I continued with the sortie.

I've had a genuine engine failure (blocked fuel filter it turned out to be) with a 2-stroke Rotax in a flexwing microlight. I was lowish, over a huge stubble field, and pointed roughly into wind. So I landed, got a lift home, trailered the aeroplane back, and sorted it out in the hangar.

And the only one that really spooked me, was severe rough running in a large vintage aeroplane taking off from a busy GA airfield with limited options on climb-out. As the engine hadn't fully stopped, I elected to turn back - due a strongish wind and residual thrust I clearly was going to overrun the runway (despite max sideslip). However, I used the residual height and power to turn 270degrees to land on a disused crosswind runway. Taxied off, did a quick engine run, identified (a) fault: it eventually turned out to be a combination of elderly carbs and fouled plugs, put it in the hangar, thanked the tower, debriefed with my student, got in my car to drive home. Shut the car door, and went to pieces. Half an hour later I pulled myself together again, drove home very slowly, then got quietly p****d. Next day I was fine.

G

[Rocket2]

Although not me flying, I was in the back of a DH Otter floatplane many moons ago returning to Goose Bay after a fishing trip when we had a lightning strike that stopped the donkey. I shall never forget the sight of the pilot working like a one armed paper hanger up front getting the engine re-started & time slowing down as the noise of the infernal inertia starter slowly increasing to engagement point while we sunk like a brick to almost certain oblivion.
Being able to re-start the engine depends on so many variables, not least if its in a fit (safe) state to be re-started

[PompeyPaul]

Very interesting replies. I guess it confirms what I had hoped, then if / when it happens it's probably going to be an "instinctive" response rather than lots of thinking.

[paulp]

Just remember that the group replying is a selective one. They are the ones who survived! Unfortunately, we can't hear from the ones who didn't so we don't get to hear what not to do.

[PompeyPaul]

Yep,

Internet forums pretty much represent 0.0001% of the community, or less, and are generally representative of an extremely small, highly vocal majority.

Individual mileage may vary etc etc :O

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Read relevant AAIB reports for what not to do. If you get an EFATO you'll be at low speed and climbing. Get the nose down IMMEDIATELY. Don't pi55 about looking for the problem or getting on the radio. FLY THE AEROPLANE. If you omit to do that (and some have), nothing else matters 'cause you'll probably be dead.

Much better to crash ahead even into an unpromising area than to stall / spin in.

[ChampChump]

I've had one, which at under 1200' was a no-brainer. There was no warning; the engine stopped after sounding healthy for the preceding 2 hours.

I've been saying ever since it was the best luck for several reasons. A hot, sunny, windless day, over Lincolnshire; the chosen triangular field turned out to be owned by a farming family who used to have crop dusters based there; the subsequent discoveries made the repairs all but a total rebuild, but I now have the most beautiful 66 yr old aeroplane; lastly, I proved that certain parts of my experience and training were highly useful.

I have always had half an eye on landable fields and this, plus gliding experience, made a quick decision relatively easy. The rest happened very fast, very slowly.

Unless you are the ace of the base, with a lot of height in hand, the priority must be aviate, navigate, communicate. And even then, the same applies. Always. I found that by about 700' I had time to consider a radio call, but as I'd not been talking to anyone, the millitary in the area were closed for the weekend and I was low, it would have been pretty pointless. I didn't expect anyone to fly the aeroplane for me and was pretty confident that I could land in my chosen field and avoid the cows.

Just my two pennyworth.

[waldopepper42]

Slight thread drift - a friend of mine, superb pilot who does a lot of flight testing for the LAAers on the field (and has had more than his fair share of in flight problems as a result) once had a complete engine failure but managed to get the a/c back to the field in one piece, albeit minus a cylinder. When asked why he went for the airfield, his answer? "I couldn't find a school or hospital to just miss, so I decided to go home"!

:D:D:D

[Whopity]

I'm curious to know what it's actually like though,Its just like flying a glider, they do it once on every flight.

Every event will be different so its unlikely that any two experiences will be the same, that's why you practice for the worst case and hope you'll get something better. Why is it that people train for an occurrence and then in the event that it happens seem keen to do something different?

[Piltdown Man]

I was flying PA38 on a dual cross country exercise in Western Australia and my instructor came out with a "Jeeez! Did you see that!" looking to the left, behind the aircraft. Well suckered, I too looked to see what he said he could see. I saw nothing. He then said he thought his eyes were playing up. About two minutes later, the engine stopped. We were at 4,000' or so. "Oh" I said, "We'll be late for the pub." However, the fields in WA are pretty big and fortunately there was a town nearby with a a large building with "Fosters" written on the roof. Sanctuary. So I started to make my way to the (very large - 2 to 3 square miles) field. My instructor was now getting a bit nervous. "Aren't you going to do any checks mate?" I told him I wasn't as I hadn't touched anything I reckoned the engine had just quit and as there was a pub nearby, why bother. Eventually, after much persuasion, I did the checks only to find some bastard had turned the fuel off. The fuel was turned back on and we tried to re-start the engine, but it was having none of it! So I did a deal with him. He tries to restart and and I'll perform a field landing if he fails. The engine finally came to life at a couple of hundred feet. We both learnt lots from that one!

PM

[vee-tail-1]

PA38 in S Africa. I am on a check out flight with an instructor. All going well then at 1500 ft agl he pulls the throttle closed and announces a simulated engine failure. I had been expecting something like that so had already noted a short bush airstrip within easy landing distance. Emergency checks completed I turned to line up for an approach to the strip, noting the wind direction from a convenient windpump located near the threshold. All went well until I realised that something was going wrong with my carefully set up approach ... we were overshooting the aiming point and the ground speed seemed much too high ... in fact we were about to miss the strip altogether!
The instructor restored power and took over ... he then pointed to a wisp of smoke from a village in the distance, and compared it to the rusty windpump stuck in its false wind direction. We were trying to land downwind with a good 20 knts on our tail! Good lesson for me ... beware complacency :sad:

[inbalance]

This: http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4467/p1030196i.jpg

is a part of an exhaust valve of a gipsy major engine.
It was fitted to a tiger moth I once flew.

The valve shaft came lose from the rest of the valve and the part shown in the picture dropped into the cylinder.

That happened 2 minutes after departure of Kassel airport in germany.
The engine was running very rough and we where trailing smoke, but still producing some power. Maybe 50%.
I wasn´t able to maintain altitude, but was able to strech the glide a little.

I turned back to the airport and made a succesfull landing.
The engine however was scrap. A hole in no. 3 Piston and a lot of metal debris in the oil.
But the aircraft was saved.

During take off an inside voice told me not to turn on my planned heading to early, because it would have brought me over higher terrain. So I continued on runway heading longer to get more altitude. That has saved my life and the aircraft.

I kept this valve as a souvenir.

Inbalance

[foxmoth]

I had time to consider a radio call, but as I'd not been talking to anyone, the millitary in the area were closed for the weekend and I was low, it would have been pretty pointless.

A good reason, even if not in touch with them to either have the radio on a local frequency that others nearby will be on, London (or other appropriate) info or 121.5, although the agency itself might be out of range there will probably be other aircraft that will pick up your call!:ok:

[Rod1]

I have had one total just after takoff and one partial. With the EFATO I had a plan before takoff and just followed it with no time to think, got back on the ground without any damage – crank had failed due to faulty manufacture. The partial was more of an issue. I was over the Cairngorms when I got a very rough running engine. Best I could manage was going down at 50fpm which gave some time to plan but not much. There was a parachuting site not too far away and with the help of ATC we got down ok, much to the relief of my two passengers. A mag had failed and the other mag had an unknown wiring issue which had been there for some time – C of A aircraft looked after by a top firm…

My advice is always have a plan for EFATO before you start the takeoff. If you have a problem in flight, knowing your location and what is around you saves a lot of time which you might not have. The site I landed at was mostly behind the aircraft so if we had not turned immediately we would have had very few good option. Very few inflight failures are total, most are reduced power. Reduced power is almost never practiced and is hard to handle. If this happens make sure you do not stall.

Rod1

[rusty sparrow]

It's happened to me twice:

1. PFLs in a Cessna 150 when the instructor pulled the mix control out to stop the engine on downwind at around 800'. It came all the way out of the dashboard so I continued the landing, this time in a glider.

2. Rough running engine in a Jodel D9 - engine dying below around 1800 and carb heat having no effect. Got back to the field prepared to turn in early and land crosswind. Finally died at around 200' on final as I reduced power. Nose down to keep 60 knt and then one of my best ever landings. Carburettor jets needed replacing.

Number 2, really started about 10 miles from the field when the engine neary died as I throttled back after the climb - and took about 15 min from start to finish. Apart from an initial Oh S***! it all went well. No time for any fear as there's too much to think about - the engine was still going but I didn't know if it might stop at any moment so was scanning for fields and concentrating on maintaining best flying speed.

I have had a few hundred flights in gliders and that gives you a hell of a lot of confidence when the engine does quit.

[Pace]

I have had one in a single and one in a twin.
The Single was in a PA28! I had just got my PPL back in the 80s and had come into flying from racing Cars.
I took a friend for a flight and as all the 150s were being used took the PA28 which i had just been checked out on.
Not having much money back then I decided I could afford no more than 30 minutes in the PA28 a more expensive aircraft than the 150s.
We made a direct climb to the north to 10,000 feet and not being experienced or really knowing what I was doing decided to try and make a straight in from 10,000 feet.
I descended fast with a closed throttle trying to get onto final for the southerly runway! No good I was still going much to fast to land so instead decided to impress the crowd around the control tower by doing a high speed low pass, a pull up, a tight circuit and a landing off that.
Pulling up the whole machine started shuddering and applying power made the shuddering worse.
I was only a couple of hundred feet high and loosing altitude. Ahead was a field and realising I was going down I made a perfect almost glide approach into the field.
Just as I flared to touchdown the passenger took fright, panicked, pushed the door open and attempted to jump out.
The aircraft touched down and thinking he would break his neck jumping out I reach over grabbing his jumper.
The aircraft was now trundling down the field with him on the wing me halfway out of the door and no one at the controls.
I could hold on no longer and let him go into the field where thankfully he was unharmed!
I clambered back onto the controls but by then it was too late to stop the aircraft which demolished a hedge.
Sadly in the middle of the hedge was a chopped off treestump which sliced through the wing.
The next morning the event was all over local radio and press.
I was a hot headed fresh out of car racing idiot, a new pilot who thought I could do more than I could!
The CFI examined the crash site and the touchdown point and speed were perfect.
Had my friend not lost the plot and attempted to jump out or had I let him go and stayed with the aircraft it would have stopped easily aircraft undamaged!
But sadly the aircraft was out of action for some time a hard lesson learnt!

Pace

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have had one in a single and one in a twin.
The Single was in a PA28! I had just got my PPL back in the 80s and had come into flying from racing Cars.
I took a friend for a flight and as all the 150s were being used took the PA28 which i had just been checked out on.
Not having much money back then I decided I could afford no more than 30 minutes in the PA28 a more expensive aircraft than the 150s.
We made a direct climb to the north to 10,000 feet and not being experienced or really knowing what I was doing decided to try and make a straight in from 10,000 feet.
I descended fast with a closed throttle trying to get onto final for the southerly runway! No good I was still going much to fast to land so instead decided to impress the crowd around the control tower by doing a high speed low pass, a pull up, a tight circuit and a landing off that.
Pulling up the whole machine started shuddering and applying power made the shuddering worse.
I was only a couple of hundred feet high and loosing altitude. Ahead was a field and realising I was going down I made a perfect almost glide approach into the field.
Just as I flared to touchdown the passenger took fright, panicked, pushed the door open and attempted to jump out.
The aircraft touched down and thinking he would break his neck jumping out I reach over grabbing his jumper.
The aircraft was now trundling down the field with him on the wing me halfway out of the door and no one at the controls.
I could hold on no longer and let him go into the field where thankfully he was unharmed!
I clambered back onto the controls but by then it was too late to stop the aircraft which demolished a hedge.
Sadly in the middle of the hedge was a chopped off treestump which sliced through the wing.
The next morning the event was all over local radio and press.
I was a hot headed fresh out of car racing idiot, a new pilot who thought I could do more than I could!
The CFI examined the crash site and the touchdown point and speed were perfect.
Had my friend not lost the plot and attempted to jump out or had I let him go and stayed with the aircraft it would have stopped easily undamaged. But sadly the aircraft was out of action for some time a hard lesson learnt!

Pace

At the risk of being rude I have a big problem with the fact that your take away from this incident seems to be "it's the passengers fault that the aircraft was damaged".

How about the less then ideal decisions on your part, like

1) A power off descent from 10,000 feet, that unsurprisingly leads to an engine that doesn't want to report for duty when you bang up the throttle, and

2) You decide to fix a too high too fast approach by doing a "low pass, a pull up, a tight circuit and a landing off that". I again find it unsurprising that the passenger was rather freaked out and when it all went bad could only think about getting out.

It would seem to me based on your description only good luck put a field in front of you and the fact that nobody was hurt, largely occurred despite your actions, not because of them.

[Pace]

BigPistons

Totally agree ;) but it was a long time ago 25 plus years!!!Hot foot out of car racing and a new and inexperienced PPL! I have not put a foot wrong since!! Then in my twenties now getting grey :{ We do learn!! some of us with harder lessons than others.

Pace

[Big Pistons Forever]

. Very few inflight failures are total, most are reduced power. Reduced power is almost never practiced and is hard to handle. If this happens make sure you do not stall.

Rod1

Rod 1 makes a very good point here. The sudden complete engine failure with no prior warning that is the standard beginning to practice forced approaches at flying schools is in fact the least likely scenario for a real world engine failure. A partial failure is more likely then a complete loss of engine power and is a scenario that is almost never covered in training. I make a point of making sure that my students know the approximate minimum RPM (for fixed pitched props) that will maintain level flight. That way in the event of a partial power loss a quick determination if the airplane is going down now or can at least initially hang in there maintaining altitude can be made and a plan developed accordingly

The accident statistics show that approximately 80 % of all real engine failures are caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot, with fuel exhaustion/mismanagement/contamination and carb icing being the most common. So obviously preventing the engine from failing in the first place is preferable then having an "FL" story to post on pprune.

However another area that flight training doesn't do very well IMO is place sufficient emphasis techniques to getting the engine going again if it fails. A fellow at the flying club I sometimes teach at crashed his C 172 after an engine failure in inhospitable terrain. The airplane was wrecked and there were serious injuries but thankfully no deaths. The tragedy was that when the wreckage was examined the fuel selector was set to the left tank which was empty but there was still 10 gals of fuel in the right tank. He was at 3500 feet AGL when the engine stopped and a quick "cause" check would have restored power. Instead he was so fixated on flying the forced approach procedure like his instructor taught him he never made any attempt to find out why the engine failed.

Mechanical failures do occur so there is still a possibility an engine can fail on any flight. The engine failure that I had on a single engine airplane (Cessna 150) occurred when a tooth broke on the oil pump drive gear. This caused the gear to disintegrate over a period of about 5 minutes until the oil pump drive failed completely resulting in a total loss of oil pressure. Fortunately for me my CPL instructor (old school ex RCAF) beat into me the habit of regularly scanning the engine gauges and making a mental note where each one was pointing. This allowed me to catch the dropping oil pressure early enough to head back to the airport and by the time the oil pressure went to zero I was established on a comfortable gliding final to the runway which allowed me to shut down the engine and make an uneventful landing.

[DeltaV]

A friend of mine had the throttle cable break on his single. The spring took the throttle to full open so instead of having insufficient power to stay aloft he had too much to get down. He had no option but to position for a landing then switch off the mags for a glide approach.

[peterh337]

Why not use the mixture lever?

[hum]

First time it happened to me was in a Harrier on short finals, semi thrust-borne. Simulator training kicked in and I ejected immediately (convinced I was going to be in trouble for not doing any of the drills). It was later pointed out to me that I was very fortunate indeed not to have attempted any of the immediate actions as I would not have survived. :ooh:

Next forced landing resulted from an in flight shut-down during a decent from mid 20's FL cruise on a twin turbo-prop due to a frozen throttle cable; not normally a big deal. However, when the prop failed to feather it turned into a forced landing as the aircraft would not maintain altitude. Here GPS was vital to work out exactly where to go to achieve a safe landing in an unfamiliar area.

Next one was simple enough, a fuel selector valve blockage resulted in a partial engine failure after take-off in a light piston type at around 300 ft off the end of a farm strip. It stopped completely on a tight downwind. Luckily crop had recently been harvested and I was able to land across the normal strip without damage. :\

The next one was during my first trip in an unfamiliar complex homebuilt type I was ferrying from UK to Europe.. Just crossed the channel when the engine note changed slightly... I did the usual things with fuel, carb heat etc but then vibration and a nasty smell followed so I decided it was going to stop... Not ideal at 1500 ft (cloudbase) with standing corn everywhere.. Pan call, GPS nearest.. airfield.. go to.. thankfully St Omer appeared 2 miles ahead as the prop stopped and I got away with a downwind landing with no further drama.. a conrod had come through the side of the engine. :mad:

In summary I would say I agree with Big Pistons: prevent, fault analyse, know your systems. However, when it turns pear-shaped it is nice to have practiced forced landings realistically (ie all the way to the ground) recently. know the glide characteristics, I usually think 2 miles per 1000 ft (ie 1:12) for most GA piston aircraft. Try this: 'calibrate' yourself in your aircraft - fly 2 miles from a known point at 1000 ft (or 4 at 2000 ft) and see where it 'cuts' through your field of view.. that's the 'cone' you can reach nil wind.. Think wind, it will, of course, have a huge effect on where you can reach. Use the GPS.

Don't get slow.

Be lucky ;-)

[Pace]

Don't get slow.

Very interesting history of your FLs!
Your statement highlighted is the most important of all as its pilots who stall aircraft.
Far better to fly under control into maybe something less than ideal than to stall / spin into the ground in a FL.
That is the killer in a FL not taking out a hedge or ground looping etc
Do not fixate on a chosen landing spot but always have "outs" left or right of your track! Don't be afraid to use them if your chosen landing spot looks pear shaped! Never ever try to stretch the glide!
Enroute always be aware of surface wind and direction! Get that from smoke or even lakes below !

Pace

[Prop swinger]

Why not use the mixture lever?Rotax, ie no mixture lever?

[hum]

Reading the original post again I think I may have missed the actual question and gone for the war stories a bit soon...

I'm curious to know what it's actually like though..

I think this very much depends on the circumstances..

Time critical stuff that require immediate action is OK, the human mind is actually well equipped to deal with traumatic situations. A short sharp burst of adrenaline can be a good thing, speeding up thought processes, heightening awareness suppressing fear etc, but it can also deceive... temporal distortion is an interesting research area of human psychology to pilots..

http://peterhancock.cos.ucf.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Hancock_Weaver_On-time-distortions-under-stress_2005.pdf

Of course 'coming down' from an adrenaline-fuelled incident can be more traumatic that the incident itself.. nicely summed up by Ghengis earlier:

.. Half an hour later I pulled myself together again, drove home very slowly, then got quietly p****d. Next day I was fine. :D

On the other hand, that horrible feeling that comes when the realisation sets in that a series of errors or bad decisions have led to a powered aircraft turning into a glider is no fun at all... The danger here is self-inducing a stress level beyond where best performance is.. more great jellyhead stuff for pilots..:E

Yerkes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerkes%E2%80%93Dodson_law)

The trick is to prioritise correctly, worry about blame, consequences, insurance, egg-on-face etc later.. fly the plane, fly the plane fly the plane.. :ok:

[Big Pistons Forever]

On the other hand, that horrible feeling that comes when the realisation sets in that a series of errors or bad decisions have led to a powered aircraft turning into a glider is no fun at all...


I think this is another very important point not addressed in training.

You will screw up.

For example inattention which caused you to miss that growing headwind or maybe a bit of wishful thinking on how much gas you have left and the flight that started out fine is now going pear shaped :uhoh:

Don't say it won't happen to you because it eventually happens to everyone.
The temptation to push on will be strong but this is where the men are separated from the boys. Realizing that you are deliberately giving up safety margins and then doing something about it is the mark of the good pilots. Easier said then done of course but wholly within the control of the pilot.........

[Pace]

With advanced GPS and displays it should be possible for the avionics manufacturer to build in a Forced Landing mode!
Hit the forced landing mode button
And have a guidance display with a continually updated landing spot displayed.
As companies like Cirrus seem to
Be into gadgets could this be a useful one to have ?
But one minute Cirrus already have a forced landing handle in the roof ?

Pace

[The500man]

Pace, I think the VP-400 (http://verticalpower.com/vp-400/) is what you're describing there.

[Pace]

Amazing piece of kit if its as good as they claim ;) At this rate we will not even have to be pilots to be motored around the skies :(

Pace

[DeltaV]

With advanced GPS and displays it should be possible for the avionics manufacturer to build in a Forced Landing mode! Hit the forced landing mode button and have a guidance display with a continually updated landing spot displayed.
The engine quits and you want to reach for the GPS? Good luck! For the sake of your family I hope you have good life insurance.

[Andy H]

DeltaV makes a very good point. Don't muck about when the fan stops - put the nose down and look for a field - quickly!

My three "real" FLs were due to frozen controls, runing out of fuel and the prop falling off. In each case I landed OK because I concentrated, I aviataed and I ignored everything else.

The real problem though is the owner of the field you come down in. I've been lucky, only one was a b*****d. He sent in the heavy gang and I had to do a runner. The other two were real gentlemen

Andy

[Pace]

DeltaV

I know what I would do but as so many Cirrus drivers appear to want to pull the chute believing they stand a better chance than a forced landing maybe such a device could improve their odds of a successful landing!
We had a long thread about how incurrent many PPLs are with forced landings and how into gadgets the current pilots are that such a device may help : )

Pace

[DeltaV]

But this isn't the Cirrus chute-pull thread. There are more people flying around in aircraft that aren't a Cirrus than people who are and very probably more people flying around in aircraft with no red handle in the roof liner than those with. For most, then, an engine quitting is going to result in a forced landing flown to the ground, which is what the OP posted about, and unless it's flown there by the pilot in charge the outcome is not going to be great.
By all means use the GPS when you're down and parked to tell your friends where to find you.

[foxmoth]

a quick "cause" check would have restored power. Instead he was so fixated on flying the forced approach procedure like his instructor taught him he never made any attempt to find out why the engine failed.

If that is what his instructor taught him then I am surprised, most would teach that once you have set the aircraft up initially you then do a cause of failure check (though this can be omitted if there has been a big bang and bits of engine flying off!)for exactly this reason. I will say though, that when checking PPLs out a lot of them will not do these checks, nor a Mayday call or crash checks.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

The first one I got away with more by luck than judgement, a cylinder gave up on a PA28 on climb out and I landed on the cross runway, engine quit completely at 250'

Then came the BIGGIE, with an uncontained turbine burst taking out lots of systems including hydraulics, a couple of control runs and a few other bits as well as setting off the second engine fire warning and starting a hydraulic oil fire (this was a rotary twin) It all went wrong at 400' on the approach and I managed to do what Bob Hoover advised and "flew it as far as possible into the crash" When I listened to the CVR I was surprised at how calm the P2 and I sounded, it was almost like the simulator, but I realised we had forgotten something, I told the AAIB man and he said that everyone misses something when it all goes wrong, and that in our case it wouldn't have made the slightest difference. This was when CVRs stopped on first impact (now they run for 45 seconds or so after the G switch operates) we had 17.5 seconds from first loud bang to CVR stopping, but still managed a lot of the memory drills.

One thing worth looking at is the frequency of engine failures at high power (take off, climb etc) compared to in the cruise or during normal power reduction. I don't have the figures available, but I believe the rate of failure at high power is approx 3-1 the rate of failure in the cruise.

As for running out of fuel as a cause, maybe we should all take advice from Vince of Dundee golf course fame.

SND

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Partial engine failure, with an instructor on board, who immediately took control at which point I was essentially a passenger (along with my family in the back).

The instructor did it by the book, as I had been trained:

(1) set up for glide

(2) decide where to go (in this case a lake round the other side of the mountain that I didn't even know was there)

(3) as there was now plenty of time to faff around (we had about 9,000' to go) he worked methodically across the controls and instruments ...

... and found and fixed the problem.

Sort-of reassuring that what you've been trained to do does actually work ... provided that, like this guy, you don't panic.

[Doodlebug]

Hello Mr Paul. I had an actual failure when I had around 150 hours total time, powered, so here's my tuppence-worth. At the time I'd reached 'Silver C' level in gliding. The aircraft was a Piper Super Cub and I had a glider on tow at the time. It's been a little while (just had a think, touching 20 years ago, actually :uhoh:) but I think I can answer you relatively accurately:

''What happened when the donkey gave out? Did you react almost immediately? Did it take a while to sink in?''
The airspeed decreased very rapidly, no doubt the additional drag of the tow-rope and glider didn't exactly help. Stuffed the stick forward and yes, that part was pretty much instinctual. I knew pretty much immediately that the engine had passed away, yes.

''Did you trim out and then go through the restart? What did you think when the restart was unsuccessful ?''
Didn't even think of trimming out. Never crossed my mind. I remember frantically rocking to signal the glider to release, because in the surge of adrenaline I'd clean forgotten his registration and therefore didn't use the radio. A glance into the mirror showed him long gone - he'd released instantly when he saw his ride nosing over, clever man. Didn't do any restart procedures. I was low and over a quarry, therefore prioritizing sorting out my landing, which was obviously very imminent . (utilising perfect 20/20 hindsight, I just might have recovered partial power for some time had I experimented with the mixture, seeing as the post-mortem discovered sand and dirt in the needle-and-seat, the aircraft being refuelled in the field from drums. But who knows?)

''Did you then select the field and approach? Was it thought or was it all automatic? Did the aircraft fly the same as it would with power idle and trimmed out? Any noticeable differences?''
The glider pilots in that club tended to want to go to a nearby quarry when the sun was low, and I had always regarded either the golf-course or the highway, both next to the quarry, as my emergency strips. The approach was almost pre-determined as I was circling at the time of the failure and the combination of strong wind, low sun and the direction of turn dictated parking the thing in a particular direction, on the golf course, so not much thought required to flesh out the base to final. I kept the tow-rope attached because it tends to shorten your landing-run, so yes, the aircraft flew the same as when I'd come in to land after a routine tow. No noticeable differences, other than the two elderly gentlemen on the green ahead of me who normally aren't on the runway during approach. Anyway, the old chaps made it out of the way and I made it down (and into the local rag!) without hurting the machine, much to the delight of the gliding-club.

I think that that one worked out primarily because of my gliding background, the drag of the tow-rope slowing me down, the grass surface and the strong headwind. More luck than anything else.

[Big Pistons Forever]

If that is what his instructor taught him then I am surprised, most would teach that once you have set the aircraft up initially you then do a cause of failure check (though this can be omitted if there has been a big bang and bits of engine flying off!)for exactly this reason. I will say though, that when checking PPLs out a lot of them will not do these checks, nor a Mayday call or crash checks.

I think the fact that the C 172 pilot forgot to do the cause check is reflection of the fact that when the forced approach is taught the student "knows" the restart is not going to be successful because the exercise is always presented as practice flying the forced approach profile. So the student mindlessly rattles off the checks at warp speed 7 and then gets down to the business of trying to make the field. By not emphasizing the importance of the checks I think under pressure a low time PPL is going to revert to what he/she practiced most, which was the purely flying part of the exercise.

Personally if the student doesn't get an effective methodical set of cause checks with him touching each control as he calls them out early in the PFL then I terminate the exercise at that point and we climb back up and go find another field and try again. The best way to deal with an engine failure is to get the engine going again, with the obvious caveat that there has to be sufficient time and space to execute the cause check and the cause check is only carried out after the gliding attitude is established and the aircraft is pointing at a landable surface. But the bottom line from my POV is that an effective cause check is as important as the skill to fly the actual forced landing pattern and training should reflect that

BTW A great exercise is fail the engine and then when the student gets to the fuel part of the cause check and says he had switched tanks, push the throttle back in and say OK power restored, now what are you going to do :E.

[The500man]

Cause of failure check? Is anyone actually taught this? From the instructors I've flown with it's always been a case of going through a memory check list, which doesn't involve looking at gauges like fuel quantity/ flow, oil temp/ pressure, CHT/ EGT etc. The typical check list is fuel on, mixture rich, master on, ignition both or start to turn the prop. If it doesn't start shut it down. I thought the point of the restart check list was that if you do all of those things and it doesn't restart than what happens next is the same as if you had looked for the cause and discovered the reason?

[foxmoth]

the typical check list is fuel on, mixture rich, master on, ignition both or start to turn the prop. If it doesn't start shut it down.
Unless you were doing aeros (in which case you will be looking to do this, but already know the cause of failure) the prop will almost certainly still be rotating unless it was a mechanical fault, so it is the cause checks that will sort out something like fuel starvation (changing tanks and fuel pump on) or faulty mag (which is why you should try them independently). Checking gauges I would agree not so important, though a quick glance at them might save a bit of time, the important thing is that you cover all the items that might get the engine going again and your list missed at least two of these for most aircraft!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The typical check list is fuel on, mixture rich, master on, ignition both or start to turn the prop.
Plus primer knob not hanging out ...

[The500man]

You guys are just nit picking! It's up to you to know what fuel systems you have on your baby (alternate tank, boost pump, manual primer, shut-off valve etc.) and since it is aircraft specific I thought "fuel on" was sufficient to cover it.

Foxmoth, I didn't think a faulty magneto would stop the engine unless you were running solely on the one that failed. Wouldn't you just have rough running (too rich) and an RPM drop?

[Big Pistons Forever]

.

Foxmoth, I didn't think a faulty magneto would stop the engine unless you were running solely on the one that failed. Wouldn't you just have rough running (too rich) and an RPM drop?

I had a mag fail in flight. The mag cam broke and the effect was to massively advance the spark on one set of pugs. The engine did not like the dueling spark plugs very much and ran very rough at a much reduced power output. Simply switching off the bad mag restored near normal power and allowed an uneventful landing. In this case the "nitpicking" of checking the mags probably saved me an off airport landing..........

I would also suggest that the first thing you do if the engine fails is get the carb heat out because if the engine failed due to carb icing the only heat left will be the residual heat in the exhaust pipe which will only provided usable hot air for a few seconds after engine combustion stops.

[The500man]

BPF, I was discussing a restart scenario, so basically what you've written is you had a mag fault and the engine didn't stop but you had noticeable symptoms that you could take preventative action. The same would apply to carb icing. It would be very noticeable before the engine died and let's not forget not all engines have carb heat. :)

[PompeyPaul]

the important thing is that you cover all the items that might get the engine going again and your list missed at least two of these for most aircraft!By not mentioning them you may have condemned somebody reading this thread to a sticky end! :ouch:

[The500man]

Bull****! If you don't know your own checklist for a restart you should at least know how to plan your forced landing and fly your airplane. To suggest someone may die because someone wrote a summarised checklist on the internet is UTTERLY STUPID!

[Pace]

You also have to consider whether a restart is advisable? Loose the engine low level and your full concentration should be on flying the aircraft, selecting a suitable landing site estimating the winds and flying the correct profile.
Fiddling around with this and that might mess up the important bits mentioned above.
Ok if you have altitude and time run through the full works but not at the expense of more important things.

usually it is apparent as to what sort of engine failure you have and whether a restart will be a distraction or not!

Also more than likely you will have some power still avialable.

I lost an engine at 200 feet in the climbout at grosse weight in a Seneca 4 twin.
The aircraft had 100 hrs total time. It transpired on examination that the rocker shafts has been incorrectly torqued at manufacture causing three of the rocker shafts to fail.

I knew by the feel of the aircraft that shutting down an engine which was still producing 30% power would mean that I would be going down.
One hand on the prop lever ready to feather if there was a large bang kept the aircraft just climbing till I got to 1000 feet. In level flight I shut down the engine and did a single engine landing.

As a light twin addendum! Most litght twins make a good job of single engine level cruise but a bad job of single engine climb at grosse.
In many circumstances why attempt a climb when the aircraft will fly level quite happily at a few hundred feet? just something to consider!

So make sure you have lost the engine completely as little power can be better than no power.

pace

[PompeyPaul]

Bull****! If you don't know your own checklist for a restart you should at least know how to plan your forced landing and fly your airplane. To suggest someone may die because someone wrote a summarised checklist on the internet is UTTERLY STUPID!

Cool story bro....

[The500man]

Cool trolling bro! :cool:

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF, I was discussing a restart scenario, so basically what you've written is you had a mag fault and the engine didn't stop but you had noticeable symptoms that you could take preventative action. The same would apply to carb icing. It would be very noticeable before the engine died and let's not forget not all engines have carb heat. :)

Well the engine was not developing enough power for me to maintain level flight so I would classify that as an "engine failure" . What does appear to be clear is that if the exact same scenario had occurred to you, your "restart checklist" would not have caused the engine to restart as by your own admission you would not cycle the mags. So you would have forced landed an aircraft with an engine fault that was fully rectifiable by an effective cause check.

Therefore the difference between me and you is I parked the airplane in its regular tie down spot after an uneventful landing, you would have parked it in a field probably with the major damage typical in most actual forced approaches :rolleyes:


Finally with respect to carb heat, if carb icing is so "very noticeable " how come there are so many accident reports where carb ice was th probable cause for the engine failure ?

Personally I think you should wind your neck in and rather than insult other posters you should open your mind to the distinct possibility you still have a lot to learn.........

[The500man]

BPF,

It wouldn't have occurred to me to use a restart check list for an engine that was still running. You're speculating that I would try to restart a running engine, and that I would damage an aeroplane landing it in a field.

I know you would advocate use of the aircraft POH, and I'm sure you know that for say a C172 that the restart check list does not include checking individual magnetos. In fact of the POHs I have none of them include it.

Would a failed magneto stop an engine? That was what I asked. If it could why isn't it included on the restart check list?

Have you ever had an engine stop due to carb ice? I've experienced carb ice and what I noticed wasn't the initial RPM drop but the brief dips in RPM as the engine ingested some of the ice. No doubt there can be much more severe cases where a busy pilot would not have noticed it in time, but if you are flying something with carb heat, then it will be on your check list. It isn't on mine.

The only way to post safely on Pprune seems to be if you write a post that covers every single aeroplane that anybody reading your post could possibly be flying because otherwise a whole page will be devoted to what should be included on a check list. USE YOUR POH CHECK LIST NOT MINE.

I do not believe for a second that anybody reads this forum and then changes from their own POH procedures to what someone else has written in a post. PompeyPaul's suggestion that someone could be condemned to a sticky end because they used a restart check list they had read on the internet is stupid. It's stupid mostly because a pilot is someone that can fly an aeroplane with or without a running engine even if they are clueless enough to use an inappropriate check list. They had to demonstrate this to get their license in the first place.

I have a great deal still to learn, but that applies to everybody here, and will never change.

[PompeyPaul]

Did something really bad happen to you recently that made you really angry? Calm down dude.

Perhaps we could get back to the original question about how people actually reacted in that situation? Not sure if it's worth starting a new topic, for those interested, about engne restarts and which checklists people should be using?

Just an idea like :8

[The500man]

Did something really bad happen to you recently that made you really angry?

No, there was no anger felt or intended. :ok:

Perhaps we could get back to the original question about how people actually reacted in that situation?

Yeah sorry for the drift.

Not sure if it's worth starting a new topic, for those interested, about engne restarts and which checklists people should be using?

Probably best not to! I'll go and ask an engineer about possible magneto faults. ;)

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF,

It wouldn't have occurred to me to use a restart check list for an engine that was still running. You're speculating that I would try to restart a running engine, and that I would damage an aeroplane landing it in a field.


I can't help myself, I just have to ask. What checklist are you going to use to deal with a situation like the mag failure ?

That is where the engine is still running but is not producing enough power to keep you in the air ?

Only in training are engine failures binary, the engine either is perfectly functional or has totally failed. Unfortunately the real world is a bit more messy with engine problems ranging from normal power but unusual roughness to a partial losses of power but with enough to maintain level flight to partial loss of power and the inability to maintain level flight to a total loss of power.

That is why I teach a "cause check", because it, combined with good systems knowledge will maximize the possibility that the pilot can restore a usable amount of power regardless of what the engine is doing, not just be limited to restarting a totally failed engine.

Anyway to the original poster, sorry for the thread hijack I will shut up now. :O

[The500man]

BPF, over here (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/492279-engine-checks.html#post7343949)! :)

[Vladicopter]

It s not clear enough,pfl is a Practice Forced L. :=