View Full Version : Restricted FIs
25th Jul 2012, 16:41
Hello all. What is the usual practice with restricted FIs? Do they have to be signed out by an un-restricted FI for each and every flight? Lasors states that a restricted FI has to be supervised by an un-restricted FI but doesn't say anymore than that. Different schools seem to have different ideas.
25th Jul 2012, 18:01
Different schools seem to have different ideas.
You've hit the nail on the head there.
Unfortunately it isn't a very black and white statement, so the level of supervision will vary massively.
You certainly won't need to be signed out for each and every flight, and the only practical limitation is you are unable to send someone on their first solo, or their first solo navigation flight.
A good policy should be to assign you a supervising instructor who will sit in on the occasional brief, possibly even the occasional flight, and will offer a lot of guidance on when the weather is suitable for certain lessons, as well as for solo flight.
A not so good policy is to tell you that you are being supervised by someone who isn't even at the school that day, possibly on a day off and not even within an hours drive. Unfortunately this is probably closer to the norm for a lot of places.
When it comes to applying for the removal of the restriction, someone needs to sign to say you are ready.
25th Jul 2012, 20:19
Thanks for that. I'm actually at my 3rd flying school with 7 yrs, 500 hrs instructing time, but only 21 solo sign-offs. First 2 schools just let restricted FIs get on with it, but latest demands all restricted FIs get both the movement sheet and tech log signed before each flight. And it can be a complete pain, especially as there often isn't an unrestricted FI around. And especially after 7 yrs instructing. Wasn't sure if the first 2 schools were a bit lapse or the latest a bit strict.
25th Jul 2012, 20:25
See here for the CAA's opinion on the matter;http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/TRAININGCOM%201-2007.pdf
I would say that your latest school a bit strict. Also a bit strange that they have the insistance of a sign-off for all flights, but don't bother to have a supervising FI around to do it.
25th Jul 2012, 20:37
thanks for the link. Interesting that getting signed out isn't mentioned. It isn't that the school doesn't bother to have a supervising FI, its more that they have usually just gone flying. The intentions are good, it's just a bit impratical sometimes. Was just wondering if any other schools out there have the same policy.
25th Jul 2012, 20:56
I haven't come across anyone being that fussy, however, I can see why they might decide to, possibly had their fingers burnt in the past. It's their flying school, if you choose to work there, then you should play by their rules.
26th Jul 2012, 03:34
As I understand it things have tighened up lately (why do they never slacken) and the requirement is that the supervising FI has be on the airfield as opposed to being contactable. Never Knew there was arequirement to be signed out by the supervising FI and this may just be a school thing.
26th Jul 2012, 07:16
As I understand it things have tighened up latelyI don't believe that there has been any tightening or slackening in the past 12 years, the requirement has not changed one iota. The listed requirements for the supervision of AFIs and FI(R)s in the UK has always been written slightly differently giving rise to some confusion, even though one requirement was taken directly from the other. The issue is, what constitutes supervision? How it is administered varies considerably and will no doubt continue to do so. The only sign offs required are to clear the Restriction. It will be interesting to see how this works under EASA because there is no such thing as a FI(Restricted) rating, only an FI rating that is restricted until certain experience requirements are met. In some States it has always been self administered.
26th Jul 2012, 08:24
7 yrs, 500 hrs instructing time, but only 21 solo sign-offs
I find that amazing !
26th Jul 2012, 08:41
It depends on the school setup and how the instructors get payed.
Quite a few schools its virtually impossible to get solo sign offs because the CFI takes all of them so they get payed to sit on the ground.
I got one lad to visit for a week just so he could do all ours so he could get his applied instruments removed after 500 hours instructing. He got sacked as soon as the CFI found out because it meant that his hour rate jumped by 10 quid an hour. Some places the restricted instructor pays the supervising instructor for supervising them.
The supervising thing has always been an issue though with some. Being supervised from tescos sometimes without even a visit at start of day isn't uncommon. And I sure that mine was 3 sheets to the wind some days when he went home early.
Then there is the days when you suddenly find out that you have been supervising 10 instructors all day when you have been minding your own buisness doing trial flights after coming in as a freelance of a weekend. And if you had known you were the supervising instructor one of them would have been grounded at lunch time for a talk with the CFI.
26th Jul 2012, 23:07
Why would a CFI want all the solo sign-offs ?
Surely he/she would want to help his own instructors progress, that benefits everyone.
You got one lad in who nicked all the flying and solo sign-offs himself? I'd want him and you sacked.
Pay the supervising instructor ? Tell me you're joking. :bored:
27th Jul 2012, 07:02
Why would a CFI want all the solo sign-offs ?So that he can claim the Instructional fee for the flight! You would think that any school would want to get its FIs unrestricted as quickly as possibly but there are a number that meet MJs observations. Perhaps they are best avoided.
27th Jul 2012, 07:21
Whats wrong with getting a mate in that needs the signoffs?
I was flying 25-30 hours a week and could do with the break to be honest. He did the 30 min trial flights and the solos and check flights.
We went through 3 50 hour checks that week with 4 aircraft. There was 2 of us mid week and another 3 part timers turned up at the weekend.
There was no way I was going to get sacked for the school flying 165 hours in 7 days. 130hours of that was cash sales. It was 4K profit.
27th Jul 2012, 16:57
mad_jock, it is very kind of you to help out that 500-hour-instructor who got screwed by his CFI, and what I write below might not apply in your case.
In my mind [as FI(R) myself] supervision is part of learning to become a better instructor. I go though my students' progress with my CFI, he reads my student notes, and I use him as a sounding board for instructional ideas at tricky training stages. As my students progress through to solo flying (one hopefuly in the next couple of weeks) that will continue, so when I supervise a solo flight, my supervisor will look over my shoulder (not literally) and be a mentor for me.
The 100 hours and 25 solos approximately 2-3 ab inito students, and that should provide a good basis for removing the restriction.
Hence, there is a lot wrong with a CFI "taking" sing-offs from instructors to make money for him/herself, and a little bit wrong with an instructor "giving away" sign offs to FI(R)s who "need" them - 100 hours of Ex. 3, followed by 25 supervisions of circuits "donated" by somebody, would not form a good basis for removing the restriction.
27th Jul 2012, 18:32
Cobalt not everyone is in your situation.
Some of the part time instructors are never around at the right time etc.
To be honest the 25 solo's are a pile of rubbish and prove nothing.
As you say having a log of exercises taught so each one is cover at least twice and handing over say 5 students to an unrestricted which were ready would in my opinion be more useful.
Folk cheat anyway and send there students up for 30mins followed by a break then another 30mins then another break and repeat in the afternoon.
27th Jul 2012, 18:54
The purpose of the supervisory period is to allow a FI to gain sufficient experience with ab-initio students, to be able to judge when they are ready and safe to go solo. Under the old pre JAA route, AFIs quite often gained the 200 hours experience by conducting trial flights which did not give them relevant experience. The JAA in their wisdom halved the hours requirement and added the 25 solo sign offs to ensure greater exposure to ab-initio students. To achieve this, some effort and planning is required on the part of the school; all too often this is missing, as indicated by the difficulty many FI(R)s have in completing this requirement in a reasonable time frame.
28th Jul 2012, 01:45
You have all made me appreciate where I am more, judging by the shambles and back stabbing that seems to be out there.
If my CFI (who should really have moved on from Ex 12+13 at PPL level) was taking all the sign-offs, I'd walk out.
If a senior guy brought in his mate, who got all the sign offs I'd kick up a massive stink, and if it didn't change, I'd walk out.
Cobalt is right on.
Some of the part time instructors are never around at the right time
this translates to me as can't be ar**d finding them, or planning the days flying so that he gets someone who will solo.
I will happily take the trial lesson so that my fellow FI(R) can have the guy going solo, to help him get his sign-offs... cause that's what all the others did for me.
I think they call it teamwork. :ok: