rating cost: R22 -> S300C

[Reely340]

I was wondering how many hours a freshly baked R22 private pilot would have to spend in an S300C to get the additional rating?

Background: a local school (A) offers the PPLH for R22 at 19999€ all inclusive (down to tax, fuel and landing fees!).
Another one (B) wants 20040€, excluding landing fees.
The school (C) I'm interested in signing up is near by but wants 23900€ excl. landing fees for a PPLH on a S300 :ooh:

I'd like to argue, that for the 4 grand difference (C-A) I could get me 8 hours in an S300 and would have both ratings for the price asked by C for just the S300. And I don't want to embarrass myself by arguing used foul numbers. :cool:

[tony 1969]

Be careful, surely the price they quote is on the minimum hours and you will have to pay per hour on top of that, It may take you longer to learn in an R22 than the 300 (this is generally the case) so costs usually end up similar.
Which aircraft will you want to fly or is available to you after the PPL?

[Reely340]

weighing in at 240lbs I'd rather fly the 300, there's a slight chance I might be able to load a passenger. I've got 2 schools who rent S300s and one place having R22's within an hour drive of my home.:ok:

I'm wondering whether the additional 3900€ for S300 based training are pure "greed" or if they are justified by actually higher operating cost per hour for the school. Its an uneasy feeling paying 20% more just because the people a friendly and train on S300s..:(

[krypton_john]

No greed. The school offering the S300 training is quite likely making less profit. Their operating cost will be way higher.

As mentioned, most don't complete their PPL(H) in the minimum hours those numbers will be based on. It is possible that the R22 budget would blow out by more than the S300 - or so I have heard.

I don't think anyone with greed as a driver would be offering flight training to PPL(H) students!

[GoodGrief]

To answer the original question, you need two hours plus a checkride to get the additional HU269 rating.

Factor in the initial PPL with approximately 50 hours of flight time.
If you do it part time, like weekends only and have longs breaks inbetween i.e. due to weather, make it 55 to 60 hours.

[Hughes500]

having worked for a school that had both types most students finished their ppl usng about 15% less hours in a 300 than in an R22
The 300 has the advantage of giving you and the instructor a bigger margin of error so one tends to learn quicker on the 300.
Realistically the most important aspect is the instructor, Get one who has a good 1000 hours on type, he will know the machine well and then stick with him

Good luck, or get an R22 rating and come over to UK and i will do a 300 conversion ( have about 4000 hours teaching on 300's);)

[Whirlygig]

To answer the original question, you need two hours plus a checkride to get the additional HU269 rating.

Are there different rules in non-UK Europe as opposed to UK Europe? I did my PPL (and CPL) in an S300 and did R22 type rating in 5 hours 5 minutes (5 minutes over the minimum). And I'm a pretty crap pilot - never did anything else in anywhere near the minima!!

With 250 hours under my belt when I started the R22 rating, I still found the R22 tricky; twitchy (I had to actually manipulate the yaw pedals rather than use them as a foot-rest), carb-heat (eek - scary), but governor-off training? Hardly noticed!!!

If you can fly an S300, you can fly anything.

With all the hindsight I can possibly muster with my 300 hours experience, I'm glad I learnt first on a Schweizer; it's a cracking little helicopter that will forgive the odd trangression - the R22 might not!

Cheers

Whirls

[hueyracer]

Although 5 hours is the minimum, you will have to do a "safety course" flying a R22 first-that sums up to 10 hours total....

[rjtjrt]

I have the exact opposite view th that expressed by WhirlyGig.
I am glad I trained on the R-22 and then transitioned to the H300.
Still it does not matter one way or the other.
Most people find the R-22 much more difficult to fly than the H300, as it is very light and exceptionally sensitive on the comtrols compared to the H300.
My instructor advised training on the R-22 and then moving to the H300, as most students found moving from R22 to 300 easy, but many foundvit a challenge to go the other way (a challenge, but very doable with a bit of extra time).
It is alsosaid if you can fly an R22, you can fly anything, but I haven't heard it said about thr H300 before.
In the end, when I went to transition onto the H300, I was amazed at how stable and almost boring it was (just as a good training helicopter should be).
So you will be able to fly both easily, and thevone you train on will be the one you prefer over the other (I love the twitch lightness ofvthe R22 and the fact it makes you do auto's perfectly, as you can't get away with near enough. i think this makes you a better pilot (to learn on the more difficult machine), but probably justbthat having trained on the 22, I am prejudiced in favour of it.
In the end, both will teach you to fly well if you have a good instructor, the 22 is harder to fly, the 300 safer, and you will transition more easily frona22 to a 300, than from a 300 to a 22.
Enjoy the journey.

John

[timprice]

Hi

We at Shoreham Helicopters Ltd can match the S300 in an Enstrom 480 turbine just got to add landing, sortie, fees etc plus dreaded VAT.
If thats any use to you.

Kind Regards

Tim Price
Head of Training

[rotornut]

If you can fly an S300, you can fly anything.
I wish that were true for me. After I got my CPL wth 100 hours on a 300C I transitioned to a Bell 206 to get an endorsement. The 206 is very sloppy in the hover compared to the 300 and even though I got an endorsement, I never liked the Jetbox.

[Reely340]

We at Shoreham Helicopters Ltd can match the S300 in an Enstrom 480 turbine just got to add landing, sortie, fees etc plus dreaded VAT.

Amazing, indeed! Is that because AVGAS costs JetA1 x 2 per liter?

[Reely340]

So, finally we have a deal. His 23600€ now include 47(!)h with FI.
In case I need them for additional training.
Or, should I turn out to be 45h PPL type, I've got 2 "free" hours of private flying, including gas.

Fair deal, all are happy, and I've already clocked 3h airtime.

Flying and especially turning by rotor-disk vs. horizon check (instead of hopping thru all instruments) is beginning to work, hovering with stick+paddle works for ~15 secs. ;) Training IS a hoot :ok:

[FLY 7]

Good choice.

Three reasons for training on the R22:
- You want the lowest cost
- There's lots around
- You plan to fly other Robinson products

Three reasons for choosing the S.300
- It was developed as a training helicopter
- It has a more sophisticated design
- It has greater active and passive safety

Remember with the later 300s there are three models - CB, CBi and C - The 300'C' being the best.

Interesting Tim should mention the EN 480 Turbine. I learnt to fly in a 300C, but now regularly fly an EN 480B. However, for fun, I still regularly fly a 300C.

I can tell you, the 480 is much easier to fly than a 300 or R22. If learning to fly a helicopter quickly was an issue (not necessarily sensible) then I would recommend the 480.

[timprice]

EN480 is the best training machine at the moment, based on how long the average person will take to complete the course.
If you want safety, nothing beats an Enstrom.
Pound for pound its very difficult to beat.

[krypton_john]

I'm intrigued - why train in a 480 instead of a 280? Wouldn't the 480 add a lot of cost when the rest of the package is quite similar in terms of handling?

[RMK]

I believe the purpose of helicopter training is to make you the best/safest pilot possible – not an exercise in finding the cheapest/fastest/lowest hours/easiest to fly route.

Yes, seek a good deal, but the most important part of training is the guy sitting next to you – your chosen instructor.

R22 can be an excellent training machine with a good instructor. Yes, there are easier-to-fly and more crashworthy designs. An example: a R44 will hide a lot of sloppy piloting, but in the R22 no mistake goes unnoticed.

Some notes:

- Be wary of deals with all inclusive pricing (they haven’t even seen you fly yet, let alone consider all the variables that can increase/decrease your hours to examination flight.

- Take into consideration what type of flying you will doing after getting PPL (can you SFH that type where you live)

- R22 weight limit is 240lb/seat, whereas R44 limit is 300/b/seat. You noted you were heavy (possibly also consider a R44 Raven I which can be found at pricing near S300 in some locations)

[Reely340]

We at Shoreham Helicopters Ltd can match the S300 in an Enstrom 480 turbine just got to add landing, sortie, fees etc plus dreaded VAT.

btw how does that work?
If I switch on "helicopters" in Aircraft Cost Summary (http://www.conklindd.com/CDALibrary/ACCostSummary.aspx) the 480 Turbine costs twice as much as a S-300C, per hour.

[topik22]

Hello everyone.
I agree with all that S300 is easier to fly...Even know the place where you can made that for 19,000 Euro (45hours)...in place with nice girls:)
Greets
Jack