Aerobatic rating: Decathlon or Robin?

[maehhh]

I feel like it is time to learn some aeros this summer and get my aerobatic rating, so here is my quick and easy question:

I narrowed it down to two flight schools which both seem quite good to me. Number one uses a Super Decathlon the other one a Robin 2160d. What is the better choice to start with? Is the Decathlon worth the extra money? What's the better aircraft to learn in?


Cheers
maehhh

[BackPacker]

I learned on the Robin as that's the only one that was available. But as far as aerobatic technique is concerned, it will not matter much. They're both capable aerobatics planes up to Sportsman level (which will keep you busy for a few years) but at that level each have their own character, so you will need to work all controls properly to make things look pretty.

And I think the Robin is prettier...

Apart from that, it's the usual considerations. A good instructor with a lot of (competition) aerobatics experience is important. Driving time to the airfield. Availability. Price per hour. Location of the usual aerobatics practice area. And so on.

[Mark1234]

What Backpacker said. Personally I'll confess a slight preference for the decathlon. Both excellent for aeros training and beyond.

The biggest difference is you'll (presumably) need to learn tailwheel as well as aeros in the decathlon, you may regard that as a benefit or not.

Again, I'd agree with BP's list of considerations, and add: pick the one you *want* to fly..

[DB6]

Decathlon without question. I am pretty sure the Robin doesn't have inverted fuel and oil systems, and for anything other than very basic aeros you definitely want them. Plus which tailwheel handling is excellent fun, and you will be surprised how much better a pilot it makes you.

[BackPacker]

I am pretty sure the Robin doesn't have inverted fuel and oil systems,

Generally true, although I think the factory did produce a few with an inverted flight system just before it went under.

So in the Robin you'll never be able to go beyond the "Sportsman" level. But at that level it's possible to compete with, and even win, from Pitts', Extras and Fireflies (I just proved that last weekend at Connington).

Like I said, it's a good aerobatics training aircraft which will remain interesting for three years or so. After that, you will want to step up to something better. But the same goes for a Decathlon.

[500 above]

No contest. The Decathalon any day.

[stiknruda]

Decathlon without a doubt!

[maehhh]

How about sitting next to your instructor vs. sitting in a row? Does that affect much?


Sadly aerobatic aircraft seem somewhat rare around here, the R2160 would be the only one which is located conveniently close while the Decathlon is quite a drive. However I feel like it would be the nicer aircraft with a CS prop, more power, inverted fuel/oil system and some tail wheel experience along the way...

I'm pretty confident that both schools will provide quality training however the choice of aircraft is a tricky one for me... :confused:

[Mark1234]

Personally I don't feel the tandem/side by side thing is much of an issue - the main advantage I see with side by side is that a considerate/attentive instructor can see you turning green (I prefer side by side if I have anyone else onboard). If you're willing to speak up that's less of an issue.

The CS prop does make life easier, and inverted fuel/oil is nice - I find stall turns neater in the decathlon, but it's not that likely you'll spend much time really needing it. I'm also a big fan of failwheels.. but you may well find you'll be able to fly the robin more often in comparison.

The short answer is there isn't a wrong answer :ok:

[DB6]

CS prop is another big advantage. You could argue that a fixed pitch prop teaches greater engine awareness but when all's said and done you really just want to be able to jam the throttle wide open and leave it there.
Fore/aft seating is better for rolling as you are on the rolling axis rather than offset to one side. Otherwise no problem as long as you can see ASI, altimeter, turn needle, Ts & Ps and fuel.

[maehhh]

Thanks for your advise everyone!

I feel like I ow u an update. It wasn't an easy decision but in the end I decided to go with the Robin for the initial training and couple of hours because of the better availabiltiy and price and then proceed on to the Decathlon and all its sweet little features in the very near future (wanted some tailwheel
time anyway...)

Training starts in ~ 2 weeks.
Any tips for me to deal with the motion sickness in the beginning? :E


cheers
maehhh

[Armchairflyer]

Any tips for me to deal with the motion sickness in the beginning?Try ginger capsules, they are among the few things against motion sickness without any piloting-prohibitive side effects. Your mileage may vary of course, but when I started my PPL training, they immediately converted my stomach from queasy earthling to Lt. Pete "Maverick" Mitchell, so to speak (unfortunately, just my stomach). Another thing that reportedly works well is a highly-dosed vitamine C shot, but I haven't tried this yet.

[markkal]

Put something solid in your belly, dry piece of bread, no liquids...

And look outside during maneuvers, at the slightest hint of nausea, go straight and level again. Make short sorties after a while, you'll get accustomed
Good luck

[foxmoth]

no liquids

Whilst not a good idea to fill yourself full of tea/coke etc just before, it is also bad if you get dehydrated so drink little and often beforehand, and make sure you use the loo, nothing worse than trying to fly with your legs crossed!:eek:

[Miserlou]

I would choose the Super Decathlon.

The Super Decathlon is built to be an aerobatic aircraft whilst the Robin is built to be capable of aerobatics.
The Decathlon also has a semi-symmetrical wing section.

If you get bitten by the aerobatic bug then the Decathlon will set you up much better for more advanced aerobatic types.

[FleetFlyer]

I've not flown the Decathlon, but have aerobatted a Robin, and wasn't keen on it for learning aeros. The reason is you're learning to coax a not particularly capable aeroplane around the sky, so are effectively spending a good deal of your time learning the aeroplane rather than the figure. I went from the Robin to a Bulldog and due to the extra capability I spent my time learning the aerobatic figures and not having to learn the plane, which more or less went where it was pointed.

[goldeneaglepilot]

Rolls in the Decathalon are much easier to get axial than the Robin (provided you start with the pitch attitude correct to the horizon) The rudder seems to have better authority at all speeds and its easy to snap roll accuratly (both entry and exit being clean). In my book the Decatholon wins!!

[Mark1234]

Just for the sake of balance I think you're being somewhat unfair on the Robin. Yup, the rudder's a bit hefty, but otherwise there's not that much between them.

Flown quite a bit in an Alpha 160A (which is a 2160 robin built under license in NZ) and both a regular/super decathlon. Yes, I prefer the decathlon, largely 'cos I'm a tailwheel snob, but frankly the Robin is perfectly capable aircraft.

Nausea advice: You will get it, and it will get easier the more regularly you fly / with acclimatisation. Plan frequent short flights, and knock it off when you start to feel bad!

[BackPacker]

I've not flown the Decathlon, but have aerobatted a Robin, and wasn't keen on it for learning aeros. The reason is you're learning to coax a not particularly capable aeroplane around the sky, so are effectively spending a good deal of your time learning the aeroplane rather than the figure. I went from the Robin to a Bulldog and due to the extra capability I spent my time learning the aerobatic figures and not having to learn the plane, which more or less went where it was pointed.

You can also turn this argument around.

Every aircraft, from the C152 Aerobat to the Edge 540, will suffer from various aerodynamic traits like adverse yaw, to a certain extent. Once you start flying any aircraft to the limits of its capability, you will have to work with or against these aerodynamic traits to coax the airplane through a particular figure.

The earlier in your aerobatics career you learn how to use these aerodynamic traits/limitations to maximum effect, the less you have to unlearn bad habits at higher levels.

I'm sure it's great to aileron-roll an Edge 540 on a perfect horizontal line at 540 degrees per second, just by slamming the stick to the side. But it requires far more skill to aileron-roll a Robin on that same horizontal line at 200 degrees per second, where you initially use the adverse yaw to keep the nose up, and later need to counter the adverse yaw with significant rudder.

If you want to learn aerobatics so you can impress your passengers or the good folks on the ground, get the most capable aircraft you can. But if you want to learn aerobatics because you want to learn to fly better, you will be challenged most by an aircraft that more or less matches your capabilities.