Portugal HEMS

[400hover]

It looks like that in the beginning of 2013 Portugal is about to reorganize their HEMS service... Right now there is 3 x A109E + 2 B412EP, and there the new organization will be: 3x A109E + 2 KA32 (WTF) + 1 AS350

The government says that it will be better than before, and that they are using the Ka32 (which belongs to the national govern) in order to save money!!

Does the heat of the summer has some secondary effects on the politics mind???

[RicardoGarces]

Hello friend.

It's not as you have put it.

Portugal at the present time has a National company that operates the civil protection aircraft. Usually they are called to perform firefighting and other missions related with the area.

From 2013 that national company will cease it's existence and the aircraft will be moved to a new company that will take both civil and HEMS operations.

Unfortunately at a given point in history someone thought that buying KA32's would be a great idea... this is just another example of politics messing with things that should have been the pilots to decide and to provide valid opinions.

But, then again, there must have been some special deal, not necessarily aeronautical related to have Portugal buy those helicopters. Politics.

Now we are stuck with those beasts. They are expensive, they are a mess, but there is no turning back on the clock.

Cheers!

[apb]

It could be temporary because the initial idea was sell their Kamov.
This is another bad new for Inaer group, These two 412 are operated by Inaer.

[Jet Ranger]

Does that mean that INAER PORTUGAL lost their national HEMS contract ?

And that in the future some kind of state agency (company) will do that?


JR

[RicardoGarces]

Not sure what the outcome will be.

Inaer didn't lose anything so far... they might even get everything.

But I guess this is a tricky deal... can you imagine having to integrate KA32's in your fleet!? and make them profitable?..

Let's wait and see.

[hueyracer]

Come on, guys-the rotary business has never gone well in Portugal-neither has the performance on INAER.....

Insisting to use their own pilots over more experienced european pilots, several crashs EVERY year.....

[malabo]

What's the issue with the Ka-32? Utility guys use them here for heavy-lifting and they work well. Reliable, plenty of power, good autopilot system. Needs some avionics added. Compact and no tailtrotor should be a bonus for EMS. They push a lot of air in a hover though, but then so does the 139.

Sounds like your problem might be pilot training or a maintenance program.

[Clavileño]

Insisting to use their own pilots over more experienced european pilots, several crashs EVERY year.....

It´s nothing to do with Inaer and Portuguese pilots... :=
The accidents are caused by a deficient ops organization, training, maintenance , inactive administration...
Besides... I thought we were also Europeans :*

[hueyracer]

Yeah....sure...

I have seen (and trained!) some of your "experienced ex-military portugeese" pilots....

If a company considers an ex-military pilot with just about 700 hours total time an "experienced pilot" for a medium twin on fire fighting-sorry, that should be a "no go"....

[Clavileño]

If a company considers an ex-military pilot with just about 700 hours total time an "experienced pilot" for a medium twin on fire fighting-sorry, that should be a "no go"....
You´re right.
But, It´s not wise generalizing when talking about a huge collective if you are doing it with limited experience.
:rolleyes:

[merlin_driver]

hueyracer:
regarding "several crashes every year", do these occur in Portugal or in Spain? It's not the same country, and not the same company (I don't work for any) Also, can you name any accidents that happened with former Portuguese Air Force pilots?

All of the "portugeese (sic) 700 hr" INAER guys come from the same squadron, and I believe they are a bit more experienced that 700 hours, though not quite a lot, I admit.
Did they tell you about their work in the Air Force? Regularly flying in the North Atlantic, day and night Sar Ops, 45 kts in the winter, over 300 NM offshore (one of the guys that flies there went to 350 Nm to pick up a fisherman from a fishing vessel, does anyone else in Europe do this?). They all left the Air Force as Captains, and did quite well, I flew with all of them. I understand your concern about "hours", but most of their flight time is turbine multi engine in real IFR, not VFR traffic patterns...


Also, some of them did Sim training with CHC Norway in the old Puma days, and we now train with the excellent outfit at the CAE Merlin Sim at RAF Benson. Which helps explain why the Portuguese Air Force has flown 50.000 hours of SAR Ops in the North Atlantic since 1977 with zero accidents.
Can you name any other outfit/company/country that matches that?

Best wishes

[RicardoGarces]

wow. Guys come on... this is escalating.

Hueyracer, I know that most people when think about the Iberian Peninsula, the first thing that comes to their minds is Bullfights and Antonio Banderas.

Unlike many others I think that when someone who is not Iberian makes a reference to us "Portuguese pilots" and is actually addressing a National from Spain is quite a honorable thing, because they are indeed our brothers and our first King was the son of one of the daughters of the Spanish Emperor Afonso VI.

( And I thank Clavileño for sticking out for us. Muchas gracias hermano. )

I don't think it is wise to generalize either. There are good and bad pilots, from the military or commercial paths.

I believe in your experienced statement, but I must intervene and defend most of my instructors that were/ are Air Force ( although I followed the commercial path). They were top notch and I think we were well taught.

We have a pretty solid safety record here in Portugal. The only two major accidents I can recall from the last 8 years are one related to firefighting in which lack of experience was the reason ( the guy was really inexperienced... a tragedy allowing him to get on the chopper ). And there was a crash with a Jet Ranger I think that was covering a rally, but everyone was ok.

I am not aware of what's going on in Spain and what is Inaer's safety record at the present time, but I don't think there are many Portuguese pilots flying there... I might be wrong.

Back to the Air Force subject... Portuguese Air Force is a very Honorable Institution, and even if you consider those pilots you met un-experienced, the Air Force has a pristine safety record, both in FW and Rotors. They fly the old Alloettes and there is also a few Merlins, which as you probably know are used for SAR, and even without that many experience as you say they have saved thousands of lives.

Malabo. I have nothing against the KA32's, I have seen them around and it amazes me the high power those machines show. But apart from the heavy lifting and firefighting those helicopters are just too powerful. I cannot even start to imagine how much is the operational cost of such aircraft, and while there is 1 on the sky, could probable be 3 AS350B3 or AS355.

and Malabo, there has never been a crash with KA32's. If you thought that Hueyracer was making reference with the KA32's envolved in accidents.

Cheers guys!

[hueyracer]

Ok, guys, first let us please not start the discussion about military/civil pilots (AGAIN)-that discussion doesn´t lead anywhere, and there are no winners/losers on this game...

Second:
I don´t know how many differences Portugal filed from JAR-FCL, but one of my portugese copilots during firefighting had a total time of just about 300 hours (on R22), holding an ATPL(H) with that-how´s THAT possible?
(Non-ex-military, by the way).

Regarding portugese pilots/INAER-sorry for the misunderstanding.....i didn´t mean to throw both of them in one pot....i should have seperated the two topics more clearly...

Sure there are also experienced pilots in Portugal....
But afai have heard, some of them prefer flying in Brasil (with their experience)...

What i am saying (and this doesn´t only refer to Portugal, but to any other country, two), is that a lot of the "young pilots" (with less than 1500 hours-because that is the limit where the accidents reports seperate "beginner" from "experienced") lost track of what they are ABLE to do-and what they are UNABLE to do.

I understand everyone in the business always looking for a job...
But 3 out of 4 portugese CoPilots i flew with (in one year) were pretty much convinced they were god´s gift to the rotary world (with just about 500 hours), but couldn´t even land a helicopter properly......

But again that doesn´t only apply to portugese pilots....

Interesting to see what they are going to use the KA32´s for....

[merlin_driver]

hueyracer:
in this forum some comments in the past have been made regarding flying in Spain/Portugal which are a bit "snob", so sorry if I misunderstood you.

Regarding the civil/military discussion, I have flown SAR in the military for the past 10 years, and I fail to understand why the military should do better a mission which is 100% civilian. In Portugal we do most of the offshore SAR because we have the equipment (EH101) and we train hard, but we are not supermen...
I know this is not the view shared by other members of the forum, and I understand that the military "ethos" sometimes makes you think you are the best thing around. When I did my first Sim in Norway, at Helikopter Service in Stavanger, I was still a 100 hrs copilot, but I went there thinking "What do these civilians have to teach us?". I got the lesson of a lifetime, as I met some of the best professionals I have ever had the fortune to work with, and it was indeed very humbling. What I learned in that simulator and with those pilots is absolutely priceless.
Fly safe

[RicardoGarces]

I am glad the conversation got back to good ground. Ideas and experiences can be shared without people escalating into discussions.

HueyRacer, can I ask you where did you fly firefighting? Was it here in Portugal?

From what I have heard sometimes they do employ more inexperienced co-pilots in firefighting but the reason is for "language coordination". Many pilots that come here to fly are unable to speak Portuguese and as you know coordination is imperative with the ground firefighting crews.

I am myself an in-experienced pilot and I agree what you say regarding us "young pilots", that's why I like so much my R44 :) I am not in a hurry to get to larger, faster, better, machines.

From what I know, Portugal Aeronautical Authority ( INAC ) follows JAA by the book. A standard CPL(H) IR (H) is attainable with 185 hours and you get a frozen ATPL ( with 25 hours SIM training ).
Most part of training is conducted either in R22/R44 and Schweizer 300, like anywhere else.

Regarding the Air Force, they do make more hours than the commercial path, because before having the chance to fly helicopters they start with FW.

Being "cocky" is not a military thing... it's a pilot's thing. Even if the pilots are screw ups. ( follow Chuck's adventures from "ChickenWings" :) ).

Some pilots do have CLP(A/H) IR, FI, and :cool: Cocky Rating :)

Back to the subject PORTUGAL HEMS

I think starting in January 2013 we will witness some power moves at some companies. It is still to early to understand what will be going on but the new contract will be for 5 years, so everyone will certainly be interested. Whoever wins the contract will have to integrate the actual helicopter fleet and airplanes from the state company, so it will not be that easy... Let's wait and see :)

Cheers!

[hueyracer]

Yes, i also flew in Portugal.......on several bases......with portugese Co-Pilots....as you said...

Some of them where really good...other´s weren´t...


While i can still see a use for the A109´s and he 412´s, i am still curious how often they are going to use the KA32´s...

How often do they fly nowadays?

[RicardoGarces]

During the winter I think they use the KA32's in works related to droughts. During the summer in firefighting they use it a lot:

Last report 15/5/2012 - 18/07/2012

85 Flights - 124:49:00 - they dropped 1020 buckets of water, aprox 4,080,000 liters of water.

I don't condone the use of these helicopters. I wish we had even more, but I do question the operational advantage VS other options.

With hope someone out there has experience in this matter and would spare a couple minutes writing their point of view, would be great. We are here to learn :)

[CS-Hover]

Every single day, firefighting.... ;)

In the winter, they do some SAR (land mainly) and now and then, some HEMS -and yes, i don't think it is a proper HEMS machine... but who make the rules, like to "re-invent" the wheel...

In the line with this, there are a "line of tought", that says that the EH101 should/must firefight (wherever this means/cost ... ) - what these people really now, beats me...

If the "coastal" SAR, was given more often to the Ka32 leaving the EH101 to the long range SAR (and islands, for now...) and around Lisbon, where the base is near... more missions could be done by them, as well accepted stable platform.

Portugal, was/is one of the first European countries with a 24/24 HEMS service ( between hospitals and crash site to hospital) and with a very good safety record (in line with appens with the Portuguese Air Force)

In the other hand, when the last contract (for HEMS) has "design" the only thing missing was saying the type (company??), since the requirements where cleary made for a given type, excluding "better" machines...

Crusing speeds better than 100 kts with less than 5 yers old machine.... for that size/category all other type have much better cruising speeds, than the winner....no?

During many years, one of the primary requirements was a medical seat at the patient head (like eE135, Ec145, MD900 or Bbell429), but someone forgot that ... ...for an A109 win, maybe?

So, the ideia with this, is group the cards and deal again.... will see how much better it can be.

[Vertical751]

Just a small correction: there are only a very few portuguese pilots flying in Brasil ( and other foreigners for that matter ). Brazilian law doesn´t permit any pilots from "outside" ( with some very peculiar exceptions ).

The portuguese guys who fly there are, generally, brazilian citizens as well.

Cheers,

[merlin_driver]

The Merlin could do firefighting. At 8000+ Eur per hour I just don't think that is a good idea, especially as the Ka-32 is an excellent firefighting machine, much better than the Merlin.

[Coconutty]

Was on a little trip the other day and snapped this :

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/MedCruise25.jpg

A little too heavy for the Helipad ( which is on the bow about 7 or 8 decks down from where the photo was taken from ),
The casualty was winched up. ( Never did find out what happened to him / her ) .

Very interesting to watch though - ship heading into wind at about 15-20kts,
and the wind speed felt like it was the same again - nice job :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Vertical751]

Coconutty can you confirm the name of the ship?

Was it the "Independence of the Seas"?

Cheers,

[Coconutty]

It certainly was - 16th June out of Southampton :O

IIRC the incident was on the 20th June, out of Gibraltar on 19th and en route to Cannes.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[RicardoGarces]

Where is the "like" button?

Great picture Coconutty!

Hope the casualty has recovered well.

Great work guys. Keep making us proud!

Cheers.

[Vertical751]

Thanks Coconutty,

I´ll pass this wonderful photo to the crew involved on that rescue.

To our knowledge, the casualty recovered well. ;)

Here´s a video from another passenger of that AIREV mission:

sQ-sItyH41I


Best regards,

[400hover]

Hey people, please put the air force pilots and the inaer problems out of this post!!!!! Lets keep it on the Ka32!

"
What's the issue with the Ka-32? Utility guys use them here for heavy-lifting and they work well. Reliable, plenty of power, good autopilot system. Needs some avionics added. Compact and no tailtrotor should be a bonus for EMS. They push a lot of air in a hover though, but then so does the 139.

Sounds like your problem might be pilot training or a maintenance program. "

Hello Malabo!! This post its about HEMS, in the case, the future of HEMS in Portugal! The issue with KA32, its NOT A SINGLE issue, in my point of view, and that is what i find hilarious about the Ka32!

In fact its a good heli for heavy lift, fire fighting and not much things more...

Regarding HEMS... Ka32 should be a NO GOOD mean for the mission! Its to much big for HEMS, you need almost an elevator to put someone laying inside, it has a dangerous downwash taking in account that you will probably land near car accidents and other stuff related to HEMS, the auto pilot its not better than the one in Bell 412EP and A109E, even the speed is lower. Inside the Ka there is no space for working around the paciente, inside the A109E i think its a bit close space also, its very noisy inside, and in the summer, you can have temps of around 45ºc inside the cabin, and you have no A/C!! So as you can see plenty of reasons why its should not be used for HEMS!!

And also, its an expensive helicopter compared to what you have now in Portugal!! With 1 hour of Ka32 you can fly 4 or 5 from A109E or another light multi engine heli !!!

You wont see much more KA32 around the world making HEMS... maybe some iluminated mind is reinventing the whell !!

Another funny thing about what its going to happen is, if the Ka32 will be delivered to a civil operator for HEMS, how will the AOC look like???
Even EASA dont like the Ka32 for HEMS!! Its Cat B, only day & night VFR , NO IFR, AND THE BETTER part ... passenger transport is not allowed!!!

You can check the EASE certificate:

http://www.easa.europa.eu/certification/type-certificates/docs/rotorcraft/EASA-TCDS-R.133_(IM)_Kamov_Ka--32A11BC-02-08062011.pdf


I am seeing anything wrong in here???

[RicardoGarces]

400Hover

you are.

As I have explained before the new contract will integrate both civil protection and HEMS areas. No one is saying they will use KA32's for HEMS.

I am guessing they will use them for what they have been using so far.

I cannot even imagine how can a KA32 be used for HEMS. I was inside of one at Helitech and although it had room in the back the ceiling was very low. Plus the door is what 2 meters above ground!?

Can you imagine these aircrafts landing in the side of a highway and throwing debris everywhere?

Please don't get me wrong I have no intention to criticize que aircraft, I am just thinking of it in the theater of operations.

Because people usually don't read previous posts, and before someone starts throwing things at me, let me repeat I would be very glad we would have many more around here, especially when these :mad: fires ravage our beautiful Country.

Cheers!

[Vertical751]

I do think they want to put the KA-32 doing HEMS service.

Check it here:

INEM | Notícia (http://www.inem.pt/PageGen.aspx?WMCM_PaginaId=28809&noticiaId=46435&pastaNoticiasReqId=28807)


Cheers,

[Focha]

You can read all about EMA's contract here:
http://dre.pt/pdfdbdiacp/2012/07/136/406254734.pdf

Contract objective: "Acquisition of owned aircraft's maintenance and operation and lease of complementary aircraft for Internal Administration Ministry and National Institute of Medical Emergency."

Also there are 6 Kamov Ka32A11BC and 3 AS350 B3 operating in Portugal, this aircraft belong to EMA (public company). Primary missions; Fire Fighting, SAR, secondaries; Surveillance, organ transport, HEMS, boarder patrol, etc.

HeliSul (Inaer's company) has a contract with INEM (National Institute of Medical Emergency) for 2 Bell 412EP and 3 AW109E for HEMS. That as nothing to do with EMA.

Apart from that there are more companies (Helibravo, Heliportugal, HTA, etc) that lease aircraft during the summer in the bush fire season.

Portugal is a small country, in the actual economic crisis is impossible to maintain things as they are. That's the reason EMA's contract appear.

Off Topic: For those guys talking about pilots; There are good pilots and bad pilots everywhere. That does mean good pilots become the bad pilots and bad pilots becomes the good pilots once in a while.
It depends of the definition you have of a good and bad pilot.
Experience is not all. Knowledge is not all. Attitude is not all.

There are so many variables. So don't put all in the same bag.

I think you guys got the picture.

Back to topic again. :}

[400hover]

Focha, you're right... EMA has nothing to do with the other civil operators! But that is the present situation!

What will happen is that EMA will disappear, and the fleet/ services will subject of an international tender for 5 year contract! And then after a civil operator will do the present job made by EMA!!

That tender predicts HEMS whats is depicted in the link that Vertical751 has shown! 3 light helis for hems + 2 Ka32 + 1 AS350 !! And than the questions arises again: AOC for Ka32 ??? Who will be the civil operator that will risk doing something with an helicopter that the EASE certificate doesnt allow???

[RicardoGarces]

Ok guys. I admit I was wrong.

In the worst case scenario the winning company will take the KA32's and will avoid at all costs to have them in the air if required for HEMS.

But that will be after they have addressed the subject brought by 400Hover, which is on the spot. KA32's cannot do HEMS unless INAC goes against EASE and say they can :)

So people grab the popcorn because we are in for a long feature film.

[400hover]

RicardoGarces... that was an single shoot 100% !! Now you see the point!

[CS-Hover]

sorry my lack of knowledge, but right now, EMA with the Kamov aren't doing some - yes the down wash is a little more than a "conventional" HEMS machine - HEMS missions, a little between costal/land SAR and HEMS ? :rolleyes:

with what they have, I think they do a very good job... if there are better options, for shure, but like a Portuguese saying "who don't have a dog, hunt with a cat" :ok:

if it was possible to make a better service, even with less cost, for sure, but wasn't the same thing... :hmm:

as an example, of HEMS Ka32 mission...

EMA Facebook photo (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150960695877840&set=t.100003188750756&type=1)

regards

[merlin_driver]

I think the KA-32 are currently operating as State Aircraft, which exempts them from the AOC (it's the same with the Air Force HEMS). So, if the Ka-32 remain as state owned aircraft, which I believe they will, problem is solved. :}

[RicardoGarces]

Not quite Merlin_Driver.

If the aircraft are operated by a state department, then yes they are allowed to go outside of any rulings. But if the aircraft go to a private operator, they will ultimately be responsible for whoever they carry on board of their aircraft and therefore insurances will become a problem which will certainly have significant operating cost effects, assuming they will manage to get the insurance.

CHC warned me recently that my IR rating would not be accepted because I would have it done on a R44 IR training platform and it would go against the book. I guess it has nothing to do with the training itself. Flying IR on a R44 must be much more complicated than in an aircraft with AP and stabilizing gadgets of all sorts. It must be insurance related.

What can we expect from insurance companies regarding the transportation of medical patients on an aircraft that is not allowed to?

[merlin_driver]

From what I've read, the Ka-32's will pass from EMA to INAC. It is the same thing, if the aircraft are state owned. When a Merlin transports a HEMS patient in the Azores, there is no insurance company, it's the State, and it's essentially the same situation we are discussing.
From what I've read, I understood that the private company will be operating a State owned aircraft (strange, yes), therefore crewmembers will need to have valid JAA licenses, etc, but the helicopter will be exempt. It's not very different from what has happened ever since the Ka-32 arrived in Portugal, if you think of it...
But as I said before, I am not into the details of the situation...

[heli1]

The Ka-32 is execellent for firefighting.It can lift more water than other helicopters of similar size as all the power goes to lifting and it can operate better in turbulence typical of wild fire scenarios.It can also be used out of wind if needed.Inaer have used it for some time in Spain and also in Chile,whilst the Russians and South Korea are also among operators in this role

[400hover]

heli1, indeed they are awesome machines when its time to take heavy loads... but for HEMS??? are joking? what type of prank is this...

[pilas40]

Entrega de meios de combate a fogos a privados alvo de providência cautelar - País - Notícias - RTP (http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=582697&tm=8&layout=122&visual=61)

:E:E:E

[400hover]

It's not the first time for that guy... but again... it will not happen nothing.

[Tazzz]

http://http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=511868208837485&set=a.324114190946222.81337.100000429324957&type=1&theater

Kamov as start the h24 HEMS Operation in Portugal.

They say It will be cheaper.

Photos in Empresa de Meios Aéreos Facebook.

[400hover]

Hey Tazzz watch out with what you may say... because... Kamov Ka32 and HEMS in the same sentence is something that EASA may not like... and because its cheaper and better to be like that.

[Tazzz]

MULTI ROLE STATE-OF-THE-ART KA-32A11BC IFR-CAT1 GLASS COCKPIT PASSENGERS ALLOWED PORTUGUESE VERSION HELICOPTER

It's a fact, they are doing it.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-TsIv2GOx3iI/UJfUKMUVuOI/AAAAAAAAABk/gzbpFvTP9cE/s288/fotografia.PNG

[9Aplus]

Well miracles are around us :cool:


11. Operating Limitations Category B
VFR Day and Night
16. Minimum Flight Crew 2 Pilots for VFR, Category B operations
17. Maximum Passenger Seating 9 – Persons essential to the aerial work being performed only
No passengers allowed


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CFQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.easa.europa.eu%2Fcertification%2Ftype-certificates%2Fdocs%2Frotorcraft%2FEASA-TCDS-R.133_%28IM%29_Kamov_Ka--32A11BC-02-08062011.pdf&ei=IEQFUNKLHsjTtAan0YCPBw&usg=AFQjCNEiFp6GbENNTZ44mxgX7aZ2Zy04Fw&sig2=K0jK6Wl2TyTXJN-fw1ONAw

[Peter PanPan]

Tazz you mean CAT A certified performing in Class 1 ops right?

[Tazzz]

I do not think that the Portuguese Kamov fit the EASA certificate at all.

They are a special version for Portugal.

So special that are banned from flying into Mother Russia. :E



So far on public sources they are flying with a special "Permit to Fly" issued by INAC that restricts the aircraft to aerial work.

Based on that, HEMS or any passengers carrying is banned.

Just to mention one.

Be Safe.

[Tazzz]

Any way, this is how they "sell" it.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-62mdR3B-_3g/UJk8vmQtKKI/AAAAAAAAAB8/UF1psg8W_MU/s512/Anexo%25201.PNG

[Shawn Coyle]

I'm not sure I'd want to be the medical crew trying to work on someone in the back of a KA-32 in the summer.

[9Aplus]

Pls do not worry. Croatian military flying "HEMS" for 15 years already
on Mi 8MTV-1 without any civilian "permit to fly", med equipment or SOP-s..

No insurance for patient, he/she is on board on own responsibility,
even in state of unconsciousness :}

Service is "cheap" or "free", but recent info is cost around 7.000 euro per block
hour, without any insurance.....

[400hover]

One of the problem is that this company is delivering a service with no safety compromise...
A ka32 has fallen a few months ago... the next thing we hear on the media is that the maintenance publications of the productor are not in accordance with the maintenance... WTF? A ka32 is down due to publications out of date???
The ka32 were grounded for 1 month, for transmission and engines changes they say (only between helicopters), and in the first flight after grounding is lift one of the captains strikes a tree with the blades and keeps flying for 2 hours... WTF??? Only in that company!!!

[400hover]

EASA will take some action soon, i believe, or maybe will close soon enough so that the mess they are making can stop. Opening a tender and putting the Ka32 has PC1 and PC2 is hilarious!!!!

[hueyracer]

WTF??? Only in that company!!!


You say it....!
:ok:

[400hover]

Yes... its a shame that a government company puts money in the garbage and in the hand of some pilots...