RAF Observers

[Q-RTF-X]

Could anybody please help clarify what the role of an Observer was with the RAF during WW2 ? I get the impression it was a combination of Navigator plus other functions, dependant on aircraft type. It’s something that has been puzzling me for quite some time. Any info greatly appreciated with thanks in advance.

[iRaven]

Try the following book:

Observers and Navigators and Other Non-Pilot Aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF
by Wing Commander C. G. Jefford


Part I traces the rise of the first generation of non-pilot aircrew, the observers, aerial gunners/gunlayers and kite balloon observers who flew with the RFC, RNAS and latterly the RAF between 1914 and 1919.

Part II examines the way in which the peacetime RAF rapidly dispensed with its observer officers and spent the next fifteen years attempting to make do by misemploying airmen as air gunners on a part-time basis. This inadequate practice is contrasted with the very positive attitude towards non-pilots that prevailed within the Royal Navy. The story continues with the reinstatement of observers in 1934, albeit still as part-time corporals until 1939. Wartime experience soon revealed that the omnipotence of pilots was a myth and by the summer of 1940 all observers and gunners were at least sergeants and increasing numbers were being commissioned. Part II goes on to examine the proliferation of non-pilot aircrew categories until 1942 when the system was substantially reorganised, the observer being supplanted by the air bomber and a variety of specialised types of navigator. This section ends with a summary of wartime training.

Part III covers the rest of the century, including the last two years of WW II and the ill-conceived '1946 Aircrew Scheme'. Following the latter's demise in 1950, the RAF adopted an all-officer policy for its pilots and navigators, the fact that they were to have equal career prospects having been announced as early as 1948. Part III examines the way in which this policy of equality has actually been applied while continuing to trace the rises and falls in the fortunes of all non-pilot categories to date.

What emerges, along with a much clearer impression of the crucial importance of non-pilots to the RAF, is a discriminatory attitude towards them. The author demonstrates that this attitude had its roots in the RFC where it became so institutionalised that its effects are still detectable today.

[Wensleydale]

Initially, the observer was just that - a lookout who was later armed. The pilot was responsible for all aspects of flight including navigation. As aircraft became more complex, the air gunner was added to the crew with the observer assisting the pilot with his navigation (pointing out landmatks etc).

This situation carried on into WW2 with aircraft such as the Hampden carrying an observer and two gunners, one of whom manned the radio. Once again, the pilot was responsible for the safe navigation of the aircraft. The observer also acted as the bomb aimer. Sometimes, a second pilot (usually a new pilot) acted as the observer to gain experience. There are many stories of the pilot being wounded and the observer pilot taking control.

However, with the advent of night bombing, a dedicated crew member was required to plot the aircraft position and later to use the new electronic navigation aids. Given his own plotting table in the heavies, the navigator (as he was now called) was required to move into the nose to act as bomb aimer over the target. This was not practical, so on raids such as Augsburg, Nettleton carried an extra navigator for this role. This crew member eventually became the Bomb Aimer and replaced the nose gunner.

'Twas a little more complicated than this, but time and space limit the answer.

[Whopity]

Then of course there were the Radar Observers (RO) who flew in the Meteors and Javelins.

[Rossian]

...the last one I remember meeting was the boss of 204 Sqn at Ballykelly on 1967/68? - O.G. Williams. A nice, if slightly old fashioned, chap. So I have no doubt there were others still floating about at that time.

The Ancient Mariner

[Melchett01]

Google is your friend as they say, but only if you put the right question in! The attached link might be of interest which is from the RAFCommands.com site and is a thread covering the differences between the old Air Observer and Air Navigation schools whilst they were running concurrently in the early 1940s.

Difference between Air Observer School and Air Naviation School? (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?9449-Difference-between-Air-Observer-School-and-Air-Naviation-School)

[Tankertrashnav]

the last one I remember meeting was the boss of 204 Sqn at Ballykelly on 1967/68? - O.G. Williams. A nice, if slightly old fashioned, chap. So I have no doubt there were others still floating about at that time.



A little later there was a senior officer at one of the nav schools who still wore the Observer brevet (quite unofficially I am sure). It may be recalled that the 'O' brevet was often referred to "the flying a---hole" and it was generally agreed that the description was very appropriate in his case.

The navy of course has to be different - their navs are still called observers, I believe. Also in the navy a pilot is someone who tries to prevent the captain steering his ship onto the rocks - with varying degrees of success ;)

[airborne_artist]

The navy of course has to be different - their navs are still called observers, I believe.

Fondly called lookers, because apart from that they don't do much ;)

[Whopity]

A little later there was a senior officer at one of the nav schools who still wore the Observer brevet Group Captain Harry King, RAF Gaydon 1966-69, a lawyer who wrote the MAFL

[Union Jack]

The navy of course has to be different - their navs are still called observers, I believe. - TTN

Fondly called lookers, because apart from that they don't do much. - AA

..... whilst better still, in ships of the Royal Navy, the navigator is fondly called .... "Pilot" and just look where that led!:ok:

Jack

[Ron Cake]

In the 1950's and 60's it was not unusual to see aircrew of more advanced years sporting the 'O' brevet. I assumed it was because they were proud of having qualified as an Observer and wanted nothing to do with any new fangled 'N' brevet.

I bet there are are some WSO's who have declined the new badge and continue to wear their 'N' and 'AE' brevets. Same thing, really.

Incidentally, Jeff Jeffords book, mentioned in the initial post reply, is a thoroughly researched and definitive work on the subject. An excellent read.

[Hipper]

Immediately post war my father flew in Lancasters and was described as 'Air Bomber/NAV II'. I presume therefore that there was a 'NAV I'. What did each do?

Later in the 1950s flying in the V-Bombers there was a Nav/Plotter and Nav/Radar.

[goudie]

When 617 Sqdn was reformed, with Vulcans, at RAF Scampton in '58 the CO was Wing Commander Bower. He wore an Observers brevet. One of the old school and an absolute gent.

[Prangster]

I've been observing the RAF for some time now and am becoming increasingly worried about its health. Were it on an intensive care unit obs would be carried out every 15 minutes. Just a thought

[Wensleydale]

'Air Bomber/NAV II'


This was his rank. In order to serarate the ground NCOs from the NCA of the time, a new rank structure was developed together with new rank badges and independent messes.

The rank had classes plus the aircrew position. (eg Pilot 1; Navigator II etc). Aircrew started as Aircrew Cadet then moved on to Aircrew 1/II (Corporal); Aircrew III (Sgt); Aircrew IV (FS) then Master Aircrew (WO). Only the latter remains in regular RAF - the others were abolished in 1949(?)

ps. If anyone has one of the old NCA rank badges (except Master) the Waddington Heritage centre could do with some examples! Please pm me.

[Tankertrashnav]

Wensleydale - In 30 years of dealing I had about two examples of these badges pass through my hands. Saw a full set at a collectors fair at least ten years back with an eye-watering three-figure price-tag. Good luck to the Waddington Heritage Centre!

Incidentally Whopity, the officer about whom I made some less than complimentary remarks was not the Gp Capt King you refer to - never ran across him. My man had better remain anonymous!

[Barksdale Boy]

My fellow nav (plotter) on my first Vulcan crew (101 Sqn, 68-70), who had won his DFC and Croix de Guerre avec Palme before I was born, wore an Observer's brevet on his mess kit. He was also a very " nice, if slightly old-fashioned" chap.

IIRC Gaydon's CO IN 1966, Group Captain King, retired from the service to be ordained as a priest in the Church of England.

[Q-RTF-X]

Lots of good stuff posted, thanks to all concerned I have a much better picture now and a much expanded view; for instance, I never knew there was any such animal as a Radar Observer. I remember in my time as "an 'orrible boy entrant" at St. Athan there was a Squadron Leader medical officer in sick quarters (a rather temperamental gentleman) who wore an observer’s brevet and, I also remember once when transiting Sharjah sighting a Trucial Oman Scouts officer sporting similar. I have a hazy recollection of seeing a couple of others, but the details evade me now. Fantastic response – PPRuNe showing a good face. :ok:

[reynoldsno1]

The Stn Cdr at Gatow in 1974 also sported an "O" - Jack Wilson ISTR, lovely guy.

[Barksdale Boy]

Sorry, guys - brain fade due to claret excess setting in. Group Captain Knight was the Gaydon stn cdr who later became ordained; King was his successor.

[Wander00]

OC Admin at Watton '67-'68 ish wore an "O" brevet. Cannot remeber his name. Big chap, and a few years later worked with his son when I was at Marshall of Cambridge and he was at CIBA - trying to make bonded noise attenuation panels for the carbon-fanned RB 211.

[Tankertrashnav]

I never knew there was any such animal as a Radar Observer.


Just to add a little detail they wore an 'RO' brevet, frequently misidentified as "Radio Operator/Officer" on the lists of militaria dealers.

[Lima Juliet]

I bet there are are some WSO's who have declined the new badge and continue to wear their 'N' and 'AE' brevets. Same thing, really.

Just an observation (excuse the pun!), but it would appear that more AEOp/AEOs have switched to the new WSO brevet than Navs - why is this? The only N-breveted navs that I know that sport the WSO brevet are the ones that thought it might be good for their career :ugh:

Also, I think it is dreadful that RAF stores no longer keep the older brevets in stock. I've heard of Navs going on e-bay to buy their brevets. In 1952 did they cease stocking King's Crown Pilot's brevets - I doubt it!

If you read the book in post #2 (there's a copy in the RAF Club library) there is a big section on the new WSO brevet. Originally, it was planned to be a 2-winged brevet for Navs that flew in the boot of Tornado, Phantom and Buccaneer. But when some of the other fleets got wind of it (Nimrod, E3 and Truckies) they wanted 'in' and so it went back to the current debacle. I know a Nav who went from Tornado to E3 at the time of the change of brevet - he said that it was madness that he had flown 12 years as a Nav on a Tornado with weapons and now he was a Weapons Systems Officer (Nav) he flew the E3 with no weapons!!! :ugh:

Finally, ACM Sir Simon Bryant was a Nav and he never changed to the new WSO brevet. He was the first, and probably only, 4 star Nav.

LJ

PS. The older brevets are here: RAF Flying Badges_U (http://www.rafweb.org/Badges3A.htm)

And the current ones are here: RAF Flying Badges_U (http://www.rafweb.org/Badges3.htm)

What is really odd is that we have, since the instigation of WSO brevets, invented new ones for Image Analysts to go with Airborne Techs and Fighter Controllers (or Air Battlespace Managers as they are now known) - what a cluster!

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

72 Sqn's SEngO mid-90's sported a pair of pilot wings, but I am ashamed to say that for the life of me I cannot remember his name.

[threeputt]

I'll get in first! ACM Sir Stuart Peach is another.

3P:ok:

[Wensleydale]

What is really odd is that we have, since the instigation of WSO brevets,
invented new ones for Image Analysts to go with Airborne Techs and Fighter
Controllers (or Air Battlespace Managers as they are now known) - what a
cluster!


The Fighter Control and Airborne Technicians wing are no longer "brevets" - they are termed as "flying badges". As an aside, the first FC to be awarded his badge was on AEW Shackletons. A Scottish reporter at his graduation was heard to comment "I thought that FC Brevet was an Italian football team".

I was one of those Navs who continued to wear the old badge rather than WSO. I had been awarded that badge after much sweat and tears - I was not going to give it up for something different! (The AE bretheren probably want to wear something with more taste - hence the larger uptake of the WSO/WSOp badge for them).

[Brian 48nav]

I was reaching to log-in to correct you until I noticed you had rectified your post.
I was 'naving' once, down in Oz I think, when a Group Captain appeared on the flight deck and lo and behold it was Grp Capt Knight sporting a dog collar.
I believe the sequence of Stn Cdrs' names at 2ANS was Chamberlain,Knight,King.
I vaguely recall several O badges being sported at Gaydon, not sure if Harry King's was one of them.
I guess he was the Harry King who was the only survivor of Flt Lord's Dakota crew at Arnhem. He parachuted from the burning aircraft and was captured.After repatriation he made his report and Lord was posthumously awarded the VC.

[Brian 48nav]

30 Sqn had 2 engineers doing co-pilot tours; including training they must have been at least 4 years away from their 'trade'.

IIRC they were Bob Katon and ???? Dennett.

We also had 2 former WIWOLS as co-pilots, Chris Horsley and Chris Cureton - both very nice guys...for ex-single seaters:ok::ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Threeputt

Good spot, me old, I'd forgotten about Peachy and the 4-star Jt Force Comd job. :ok:

I'm guessing that Osby might be in with a shout in the future? A man that could lead and inspire me to almost anything.

LJ

[Biggus]

Leon,

Regarding the relative take up of the new WSO brevet by the old trades of Nav and AEO, I'll offer a few comments. Some are facts, some my own opinion, and some possibly contentious....

First of all, I am a Nav, with a similar outlook to Wensleydale. Why should I wear a brevet (WSO) that I am not entitled to? I haven't done any training that qualifies me as a WSO - are they just giving away the WSO brevet now? I attended an Air Navigation School, where, as part of a particular Air Navigation Course, I qualified as an "Air Navigator" (that's what it says on the certificate in my log book). Like Wensleydale I put considerable time (how long is the AEO training course?) and effort into the qualifying process. I keep wearing the old Nav brevet not out of nostalgia or loyalty but because I consider I am entitled to - personally I would feel a fraud wearing a WSO brevet.

As for AEOs, well here comes the contentious bit. In my opinion, by embracing the WSO brevet the AEO branch got a boost in status, by bringing themselves up to the equivalent of nav (what was the highest ever ranking AEO? Gp Capt?). This opened up new career opportunities for AEOs (now able to do jobs previously "nav" annotated as opposed to limited to the small pool of AEO jobs), and also improved their financial status....

People may question my last comment. Well, when Nav and AEO were separate branches they topped out on the PA payspine two levels apart. By creating the WSO branch PA AEOs (whatever brevet they chose to wear) eventually benefited by about £2,000 a year.

Thus I believe AEOs were much more likely to embrace the WSO concept in all aspects, including wearing the brevet.

It is often difficult to judge the tone of a written piece. If the above sounds like sour grapes, or me having a dig at the AEO branch, it was not so intended. My own thoughts and feeling reference wearing the nav brevet are just that. My relative comments on AEOs are my own opinions, but I have tried to keep them dispassionate and explain how I reached them. I count myself lucky to have had the privilege of of working with some good AEOs over the years, fine operators and decent human beings.

[Lima Juliet]

Biggus

Regarding AEOs, I think you're probably "on the money" - they were my thoughts as well, but I was apprehensive to air the same views!

LJ

[Rossian]

...as a very old former AEO may I add that the most senior were Alan Hicks and Mike Butler both whom were Air Commodores. Both were squadron commanders in the maritime force, (42 and 120 respectively).

I actually passed on my No6 and a not-much-worn No1 to a newly commissioned AEOp before he set off on his first commissioned tour. He was well pleased that they both had the AE brevet.

I didn't realise that there was a potential financial penalty in sticking with the brevet one was initially qualified to wear.

I was always very pee'd off that AEOs were shut out out of the back seat of the Bucc - I'd have loved that job. When, many years later, I did get a backseat ride from Lossie with a large red haired flt cdr (who did his damndest to make me throw up) I remarked to the squadron boss afterwards that "that's what I should have been doing for the last 25 years". I loved it!

The Ancient Mariner

[Ron Cake]

BIGGUS

.... few points about your comments to Leon.

1. The AEO course was 13 months - ie longer than the pilot and nav courses

2. Pilots, Navs and AEOs were not separate branches but were aircrew categories within the GD flying Branch. All, in theory, had the same career prospects and were paid the same. Are you saying that the system changed and that commissioned aircrew in the three categories were once on different pay scales?

3. '....bring themselves up to the status of navs' !!! BIGGUS, tell me it's a put on, PLEASE

4. '..... working with some good AEOs, fine operators and DECENT HUMAN BEINGS. Phew! that must have been a relief. I know it's well meant, BIGGUS but you shouldn't patronise

[iRaven]

1. The AEO course was 13 months - ie longer than the pilot and nav courses

Ahem, the Pilot course elementary, basic and advanced is ~2 years and the Navs is about 2 months short of that - best case not including OCU! So 24 months and 22 months versus 13 months; no wonder you are an AEO/AEOp! :ok:

We tried some AEOs in Tornado in the early days. Yes, they could work the kit, but they did not have the skills to do the planning and airborne navigating. Yes, you could have trained them, but why bother when they would need to do the bulk of the Navs course. In fact, some AEO/AEOps did a Pilot or Nav crossover and turned into very fine aviators indeed; as have Navs doing a Pilot crossover. There are also many experienced Navs that have whooped qualified Pilots in ACT in either a twin-sticker or Hawk in the past.

So I guess it comes down to training and/or experience. After "you can teach monkeys to fly better than that!" :ok:

iRaven

[Biggus]

Ron,

Point 1 - Incorrect, as has already been pointed out!

Point 2 - Yes, on the PA spine they were paid different amounts, in that they had different ceilings on the pay spine that they could reach, so their pay topped out at different amounts.

Point 3 - Compare rank ceilings, job opportunities, etc of Navs vs AEOs. In the latest round of redundancies they were looking for 2 Wg Cdr AEOs. There were currently 8, yes 8, in the RAF. How many Wg Cdr Navs in the RAF? It's not a pi**ing contest, but the Nav branch was much bigger, offered a wider range of opportunities and the prospect of greater advancement. In an RAF generally run by FJ pilots, most of whom had never ever met an AEO, the Nav branch had more impact, visibility, and effectively status. Officer aircrew were generally labelled as pilot, nav and rearcrew officer, the latter term encompassing commissioned LM, AEs and AEOs in one group. I'm not boasting, simply telling it as it was - live with it!

Point 4 - I'll try not to patronize if you try to get your facts right (see points 1-3 above)

Have a nice day!




Edited to add - My comments were (I would like to think obviously so) in relation to the relative proportions of Navs/AEOs who changed to the WSO brevet. We are therefore talking about the situation pertaining in approx. 2002, and the people who were in the RAF at the time. Lengths of training courses in the 40's, 50's and 60's are therefore irrelvant, as nobody of the that vintage (well there may have been the odd one from the late 60's) was still in to make the maintain/change brevet decision. Lengths of training course in the 70's and beyond would be relevant.

[Hipper]

Quote:

'Air Bomber/NAV II' This was his rank. In order to serarate the ground NCOs from the NCA of the time, a new rank structure was developed together with new rank badges and independent messes.

The rank had classes plus the aircrew position. (eg Pilot 1; Navigator II etc). Aircrew started as Aircrew Cadet then moved on to Aircrew 1/II (Corporal); Aircrew III (Sgt); Aircrew IV (FS) then Master Aircrew (WO). Only the latter remains in regular RAF - the others were abolished in 1949(?)

ps. If anyone has one of the old NCA rank badges (except Master) the Waddington Heritage centre could do with some examples! Please pm me.

My Dad was a Flight Leiutenant at the time.

[Ron Cake]

iRaven

Length of Nav course.

On another current thread (58 Nav course), ICM posted that the Nav course 'was all done inside 12 months'. He gave as an example No 72 course at Hullavington which ran from Jan to Dec 1965.

I have just called a nav chum from those days who dug out his records. They showed that his nav course ran from 1 Sep 59 to 30 Aug 60. I make that 12 months. So if these two navs are right, the nav course was one month shorter than the AEO course. I'm checking the pilots course duration in the early 60's

I think the discrepancy lies in the different eras involved. My comments about course length clearly referred to the 1960s when the AEO course was extant. You, I imagine, are talking about more recent times.

As for your attempt at a little dig at the end - well, I'm tempted, but I am far too old to get involved in a PPRuNe type slanging match.

[iRaven]

I started Nav trg at Finningley in early Sep and finished late Feb in the 2nd year - no holds or fails, so that is 18 months. Plus then I needed the Fast Jet lead in at Brawdy that was a further 4 months including groundschool, single seat sea survival and then the 14 trips or so. Total 22 months prior to starting the Tornado OCU.

My mates going through Pilot trg that I went through officer trg joined me on the Sqn about 2-4 months later.

Sorry, me old, but Nav trg in the 80s/90s for Group 1 Fast Jet was a lot longer than your chaps in the 60s.

iRaven

[Lima Juliet]

These days it takes 103 weeks to train a FJ Pilot to the input standard for a FJ OCU. For a WSOp Linguist it takes 95 weeks (including the 72 week language school), 40 weeks for a Multi-Eng Crewman and 65 weeks for a Rotary-Wing Crewman - all graduate as WSOps and go direct to OCU after these times.

So in aircrew trg time, the Pilots take 30-40 weeks longer than most WSOps and even WSOp Linguists who have to complete a 72 week Defence Language School course as part of their 95 weeks.

As Biggus said earlier, it takes longer to train "front end" crew than "rear end" crew - sadly the "front end" navs are now drying up and I suspect that at some point in the future we will relearn the exceptional value of a 2-man crew in a high-end threat saturated combat environment. But for now we are going back towards single seat ops on our FJ fleets for the foreseeable future.

LJ

[Wensleydale]

My Dad was a Flight Leiutenant at the time


H, the rank structure that I described was for NCA (Non-commissioned aircrew) - the officers' ranks were unchanged.

However, if I may correct myself, I got the equivalences wrong in my earlier posts... in fact Aircrew I was the FS rank while Aircrew IV was for the corporal. The confusion comes from the number of stars in the rank badge. Aircrew 4 has one star while aircrew III has 2 stars and aircrew II has 3 stars. Aircrew 1 has a crown over the 3 stars. In effect, the stars replaced the ground trades chevrons... no wonder it didn't catch on!

[Vortex_Generator]

The Fighter Control and Airborne Technicians wing are no longer "brevets" - they are termed as "flying badges".

I recall reading an article recently by (I think) Wg Cdr Jefford who stated that they were all "flying badges" and the term "brevet" has no official recognition.

Possibly in a recent RAF Historical Society Journal, which I can't access at the moment.

[Fareastdriver]

We wouldn't have let fighter controllers and airborne technicians into the Brevet Club in Mayfair.

[longer ron]

Brevet (Fr) = diploma,certificate.

Badge (Fr) = Badge

[teeteringhead]

One was slaving away on the 4th Floor of MoD Main Building when the WSO/Op "RAF" brevet was being staffed. Originally and (IMHO) incredibly, the original draft had the Crown only on WSO (ie commssioned) brevets!

Until we pointed out that whern we had non-commissioned pilots, their wings also had crowns ..

And of course I write as a fully paid up, commissioned member of the TWMR! :ok:

And I'm sure I saw Simon Bryant with a WSO brevet?

[longer ron]

Interestingly MOD call the Pilots wings a 'badge' and the rear crew wing a 'brevet' :)

Qualification Badges
0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 – 436)
currently in issue
BADGE DESCRIPTION
Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and
surmounted by a crown – on dark blue melton cloth.
Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm)
long – on dark blue melton cloth.

Air Electronics Officer ]
or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note)
Air Engineer (E) ]
Air Loadmaster (LM) ]

Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will
be no further provisioning of the current brevet.
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an
outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above).
Fighter Controller (FC). The letters ‘FC’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Airborne Technician (AT). The letters ‘AT’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.

[ian16th]

Was any course in the RAF, aircrew or ground crew, longer than the Aircraft Apprentice's 3 years?

[iRaven]

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/images/localpeople/ugc-images/275778/Article/images/12760321/2942687.png

No WSO brevet for Sir Simon Bryant - thank goodness!

Furthermore, in answer to the Apprenticeship 3 years question.
A. It's impossible to compare as Flying Trg for commissioned aircrew has many stages and is not a straight through course - in my time 5 months Initial Officer Trg, 19 months Basic Nav Trg, 6 months TWU and 6 months FJ OCU = roughly 3 years with the odd 1-2 week "hold" on top.

[London Eye]

"No WSO brevet for Sir Simon Bryant - thank goodness!"

Although he did one wear one on his woolly pully iirc. Probably couldn't get a new 'N' brevet from stores following one of the many changes of jumper design....

[Pontius Navigator]

...as a very old former AEO may I add that the most senior were Alan Hicks and Mike Butler both whom were Air Commodores. Both were squadron commanders in the maritime force, (42 and 120 respectively).

I believe Derek Hands (IIRC) ex-stn cdr at St Mawgan possibly reached 2* rank before being compromised in the toilets at Shepherd's Bush and reported in the currant bun.

Then Brian MacLaren went from Sgt AEOp to Air Cdre.

[Pontius Navigator]

On another current thread (58 Nav course), ICM posted that the Nav course 'was all done inside 12 months'. He gave as an example No 72 course at Hullavington which ran from Jan to Dec 1965.

I have just called a nav chum from those days who dug out his records. They showed that his nav course ran from 1 Sep 59 to 30 Aug 60. I make that 12 months. So if these two navs are right, the nav course was one month shorter than the AEO course. I'm checking the pilots course duration in the early 60's.

Concur. I was on 42 Course. 8 months at 2ANS and 4 at 1ANS. Talk of then doing OCU etc is a red herring as everyone did that. As a Nav Rad I also did the 'short' 4 month NBS Course. The previous NBS course had been 12 months and much of our syllabus had not been trimmed.

[Ron Cake]

As PN said, the early Nav Rad courses at BCBC Lindholme ran for a full year. I believe students had to do much of the NBS/H2S syllabus right down to circuit level. It must have needed good maths and physics and a real dedication to hard work.

So how did the P staff persuade newly qualified Navs to opt for the Nav Rad training when it meant a further year of hard graft. And it had the prospect of life in the V force at the end of it. It must have been a hard sell.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ron, persuade? You must be joking. If you were an abo it was your course commander, CNI and poster that determined your posting.

If you were a retread there was indeed some persuasion or more like mis-selling. We had an ex-Canberra nav and an ex-JARIC nav and both had been given the fast ball albeit for the 4 month course. Another retread decided he didn't want to pass and did little work in ground school. At the culmination we underwent a Viva with all the kit set out but power off.

His Viva lasted 7 1/2 hours. Needless to say, they wouldn't let him fail.

[Willard Whyte]

the observer assisting the pilot with his navigation (pointing out landmarks etc).

That's largely how I got across the 'States on training sorties: navigating from interesting feature to feature. A straight line may often be the quickest way, but it's seldom the most interesting.

[Daf Hucker]

Pontius,

Ref your #49 - you are hereby fined a slab for mentioning him that shall not be named.

[Pontius Navigator]

Daf H, the latter not the former I presume, although not too much difference?

[thing]

I believe in the German Air Force (WWI) the observer was always an officer and a/c captain. The pilot was a Sgt and looked on as some kind of chauffeur in their recce 'planes.

I have no vested interest in the pilot v others by the way....:)

The Dennett EngO referred to in an above post was John Dennett, he was Sengo on 3 at Gut in the late 70's. There was also a WgCdr Cheeseman at Sealand in the early 80's, an eng with pilot's wings and the CO was a Group Captain eng who's name escapes me now but he wore an AEO badge.

[Barksdale Boy]

84 Nav course lasted from mid-Jan to mid-Dec 66 - 11 months tops.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Dennett EngO referred to in an above post was John Dennett, he was Sengo on 3 at Gut in the late 70's. There was also a WgCdr Cheeseman at Sealand in the early 80's, an eng with pilot's wings and the CO was a Group Captain eng who's name escapes me now but he wore an AEO badge.

There was a scheme in the late '50s early '60s that saw medical officers and engineers undergoing aircrew training so that they could better understand the modern aircraft systems. There was a wg cdr doc pilot at AMTC and we had an elect eng offcer AEO on one of the sqns, IX or 35, at Cottesmore. We were surprised that he only did one tour as he was a good AEO.

I don't know how much benefit the Eng branch got from a relatively small number of aircrew trained officers.

[Party Animal]

thing,


I believe in the German Air Force (WWI) the observer was always an officer and a/c captain. The pilot was a Sgt and looked on as some kind of chauffeur in their recce 'planes.




Not exactly the same in the Maritime Air Force (Nimrod) but very similar idea!! :ok:

[Ron Cake]

PN - a few points about your recent posts

Thank for putting me right on how Nav Rad's were selected. I should have realised that a certain amount of 'leaning' would have been needed. I bet it caused a lot of resentment. I remember on long overseas sectors our Nav's would sometimes change seats. ....how the Nav Rad loved to get his paws on the INS and Green Satin for an afternoon.

In the banter about AEO's who reached high rank you introduced the name of a two star who, in the mid 70's, was done for 'cottageing'. He was, in fact, a pilot and not an AEO. ...thought I'd mention it.

I too remember the scheme whereby Eng Officers graduating from the RAF Tech College at Henlow could apply to do an aircrew tour as either a pilot or AEO. But I don't think they had the option to remain in the GD branch after one tour. Career Eng Officers from Henlow were far too valuable to sit around in Squadron crew rooms playing cards/ uckers

[langleybaston]

If I have recalled this before, apologies in advance.

A colleague was briefly brevetted with M for Met.Observer, and was required to report to an HQ for some reason.

Whilst waiting to be summoned, a senior officer passing by asked him what the M represented.

"Flying Midwife sir, lots of trooping flights with pregnant wives on board".

Lived to tell the tale.

[Tankertrashnav]

Re the NBS course

H2S magnetron frequency 9375 MHz, klystron frequency 9330 MHz, giving a beat frequency of 45 MHz. Learned in 1970 - never forgotten.

But why can't I remember what I've come upstairs for :confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, now why did I think it was 9310?

[Pontius Navigator]

In the banter about AEO's who reached high rank you introduced the name of a two star who, in the mid 70's, was done for 'cottageing'. He was, in fact, a pilot and not an AEO. ...thought I'd mention it.

Thank you, I know he was very hands on and wrote on a staff paper when he was OC at SM "What about the straffing Backfire". I then had to convince my staish that the Backfire was unlikely to strafe and that its best weapon against the MPA was a 500 kg retard stick right down the flight line. My staish then made me contact Strike to confirm which they kindly did,

But I don't think they had the option to remain in the GD branch after one tour. Apart from the loss of flying pay the Eng I knew was quite happy to hang up his helmet and work in an office with windows.

[Ancient93]

The earlier RAF aircrew role of Air Observer included navigation, bomb aiming, air gunnery, air photgraphy and reconnaisance. It was a lenghty training period. By 1942/3 the four engined a/c were coming into use and decisions were made to split many of the duties of Air Observer - hence a specialist Bomb Aimer role and with the use of powered gun turrets, specialist Air Gunners. Coincidentally the Air Observer role was discontinued and a specailist Navigator role came into being. This specialisation also permitted a significant reduction in training time.
The brevet of an Air Observer - the single-winged "O" (incidentally I believe it was the "oldest" RAF brevet stemming from the artilliary Observers up in their balloons in 1914) was the source of much ribbing by pilots ("Drivers, airframe) - who often called us "Flying orrifices" (or similar). Needless to say we who were privilged to qualify as Air Observers greatly value our position in both Bomber and Coastal Commands of the RAF. Any queries I'll be happy to try and answer them.

[Union Jack]

Now that's got a certain ring to it as a thread title, Sir, and I'm pretty certain that Danny would greatly appreciate any input you may care to add to http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11.html !:ok:

Jack

[BBadanov]

In the 1950's and 60's it was not unusual to see aircrew of more advanced years sporting the 'O' brevet. I assumed it was because they were proud of having qualified as an Observer and wanted nothing to do with any new fangled 'N' brevet.

I bet there are are some WSO's who have declined the new badge and continue to wear their 'N' and 'AE' brevets. Same thing, really.


Meanwhile, out in the Empire...
The RAAF changed last decade from "Nav" to the "ACO" (air combat officer) category.
The wing changed from "N" to a double wing - same shape as a pilot's, but with the Southern Cross stars in the centre (designed by nav John M---r).


This was to catch up with the RCAF (which brought in the double wing in about the 1960s, with a globe of the earth in the centre). And the Yanks have always had double wings. Actually, the real reason the RAAF changed was for PR and try and make the job more attractive for recruiting.


The ACO category also brought in the Fighter Controllers !!! WTF I hear you say. I would rather see them labelled "FC", but not only did it bring in the flying AEW type chaps, it also included ground-based FCs !!
So a chap (or chapesse) might never have stepped into an aircraft, but was awarded wings!


So it was one step forward, three mighty steps for mankind backwards...

[Darvan]

What?.......Will you be awarding brevets (wings) to ATC controllers and Ops Support personnel aswell? What about the good chaps that fix our kites also? (I missed the Blitz my Aussie friend, did you make it this year?)

[ancientaviator62]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/2aba676e-9471-47b3-8d22-95579be85c73_zps4e5676c7.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/2aba676e-9471-47b3-8d22-95579be85c73_zps4e5676c7.jpg.html)
This is the qualification page from a copy of a log book. As I have lost touch with the owner of the original log book I have blanked out the gentleman's name.
He survived the war as a Wing Commander and was OC a bomber squadron by the end of hostilities.

[Tengah Type]

As I understand it, in the 60s and 70s, the rules for wearing flying badges/brevets were that you had to wear your current brevet; but after you were no longer appointable to flying duties you could wear any brevet you had been entitled to.

So lots of ex "O" brevet wearers were still in the RAF but no longer flying.

There was a Wing Commander Admin at Topcliffe who wore either an "O" or Pilots Wings as the mood took him.

The rules may still apply.

[HAS59]

My old mate Bill, who is sadly not with us any more, was an Observer on Maritime Wellingtons, 621 Squadron in and around Aden. He said he was on the last course to qualify as an Observer in August 1943. This was at No 44 Air School (AONS) Advanced Air Observer Navigation School - Grahamstown in South Africa.

We used to rib him a bit when we learned that the O-Brevet was referred to as a 'Flying A***hole'. He used to just smile as he was proud of it. He went on to say that the N brevet stood for Not good enough to be a pilot. Which may even be true in some cases.


The Observers course he did was pretty intense, going by his log book which I have. Flying was on Oxfords and Ansons, navigation & bombing (day and night), photo reconnaissance, air gunnery, fighter evasion, sea patrol, then low level navigation and bombing.


When he qualified he was promoted to sergeant and was on 13 shillings and sixpence a day!

[ian16th]

It may be of interest that the South African Air Force has just gained 10 newly qualified pilots, 5 navigators, 6 flight engineers and 1 loadmaster.

The South African Air Force (http://www.saairforce.co.za/news-and-events/1326/saaf-gains-ten-new-pilots)

[reynoldsno1]

but it would appear that more AEOp/AEOs have switched to the new WSO brevet than Navs

Funny, I flew on Nimrod MR.1's with a Master Signaller who refused to change to AEOp, even though he would have got a pay rise ...

[BBadanov]

Funny, I flew on Nimrod MR.1's with a Master Signaller who refused to change to AEOp, even though he would have got a pay rise ...


Maybe a loss of their perceived status... Having achieved "Master", didn't want to be in the masses as an AEOp ?

[ValMORNA]

There was a 'Master Nav' on our transport squadron in the middle east in the mid-1950's whose technique was to stand with his head in the astrodome, look around outside, step down and mark our position on his chart. That was the significance of someone wearing an Observer brevet. An observer by trade and a master of bullsh!t3 by rank.

[reynoldsno1]

Maybe a loss of their perceived status... Having achieved "Master", didn't want to be in the masses as an AEOp ?
Err, no - "Master" refers to his rank, i.e. a Warrant Officer with aircrew qualification. He could have become a MAEOp, but preferred to retain his original qualification ....

[charliegolf]

Then Brian MacLaren went from Sgt AEOp to Air Cdre

He was the AAITC staff when I was in 79 ish.

CG

[nimbev]

two star who, in the mid 70's, was done for 'cottageing'. He was, in fact, a pilotI know that most of those posting here have memory problems - time flies by either too fast or too slowly - but the incident in question was 1989/90. (not that I was there I hasten to add)

[thing]

Forgive my naivity but is 'cottageing' the same as 'dogging'?

[Willard Whyte]

You could always Google them. At work.

[thing]

Thank you Willard; I see after your advice that there isn't much difference.

[Willard Whyte]

It just reminded me of a day in the office a few years back when a senior pilot asked, of no-one in particular, what 'dogging' was. I think he was looking at a BBC or newspaper website.

One of the engineers took to google on his work computer and found out. Much hilarity ensued when it was pointed out that the IT department - or whatever they were called, it doesn't matter - could access our internet records...

[thing]

I had never heard of 'cottageing', I had an idea that dogging was something sexual but I am now enlightened on both fronts. What a strange world we inhabit...:).

[NutLoose]

I thought this was well presented on ebay and went for a low price considering most were originals

12 x Genuine RAF Pilots & Crew Cloth Wings Collection ~ Framed Display | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311213586957?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_279wt_942)

[gzornenplatz]

Nutloose, I met a Wing Commander Air Trafficer at Shawbury with an "M" brevet. He told me he had been a Met observer. A rare breed.

[Bratman91]

Once upon a time, the RAF also had Master Technicians. Does the RAF still have any "Master" ranks still serving, and what were/are/would be the equivalent for females - Mistress AEO, Miss Signaller?

[26er]

From leaving school until N/S call-up I was a meteorological assistant. I then began a pilot course at No 1 ITS RAF Wittering from Jan '50. After a couple of weeks I received a letter offering me immediate promotion to Sgt Air Met Observer with an "M" brevet on my chest. Although it seemed impressive I declined and have never regretted my decision. The thought of "thums","prats" etc. (ask Langley B) would drive me mad.

[teeteringhead]

Nutloose, I met a Wing Commander Air Trafficer at Shawbury with an "M" brevet. He told me he had been a Met observer. A rare breed And he was the very last.

I recall being at his retirement D-I-N and it was mentioned that when he went the Ms would be no more - late 70s early 80s IIRC??

[Danny42C]

Pontius Navigator (your #58)

"....I don't know how much benefit the Eng branch got from a relatively small number of aircrew trained officers...."

One of the versions (at the time) of the inadvertant flight by W/Cdr "Taffy" Holden in a Lightning at Lyneham had him as having done one of these Courses. Don't know if it's true.

(And if it were, it certainly wouldn't have qualified him to fly a Lightning !)

The marvellous thing about that episode was that they managed to hush it up so successfully that the papers didn't get on to it for years afterwards. A side effect was that all manner of tales were running around in the RAF after it happened (on a Saturday, I think).

It reached the Instructors' Common Room at JATCS (Shawbury) on the Monday morning. We rang Lyneham ATC, but could get nothing out of them. Somewhere way back in the last three years I Posted our (highly coloured)version on the "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread under the title "Le Pilote Malgré Lui".

D.

PS: Traced it - "Lightning Engineer Airborne" Thread: Page 3 #42. This was the rumour as it reached us at Shawbury - almost entirely fictitious and much embroidered ! :8

[Union Jack]

This was the rumour as it reached us at Shawbury - almost entirely fictitious and much embroidered!

Danny - Despite the disclaimer above, I like your version so much - not least because of your vivid description of the alleged reaction on the ground! - that I hope you don't mind me highlighting http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/161406-lightning-engineer-airborne-3.html:ok:

Jack

[langleybaston]

QUOTE

Once upon a time, the RAF also had Master Technicians. Does the RAF still have any "Master" ranks still serving, and what were/are/would be the equivalent for females - Mistress AEO, Miss Signaller?

Air Loadmatress of course.

An ex-Air Met Observer says that the M brevet doubled as Midwife ..........

[Danny42C]

Jack,

I would never take objection to any of your wise, witty and pertinent comments on my Posts !

But always bear in mind that, when the Guinness and the craic is flowing, the literal Truth sometimes takes a back seat !

Danny.

[nerus1]

I have been reading the various posts regarding airmen aircrew and the demise of the prized "O" brevet and replaced by the very mundane "N".
I joined as cadet airmen navigator in January 1949 for 8 years regular and 4 on the Reserve.
When our group got to No.1 ITS at RAF Wittering, among our instructors was a wonderful Master (equivalent to Warrent Officer) aircrew Navigator who wore the "O" brevet. We were told that the course we were on would also qualify us for the same illustrious brevet. Needless to say, Air Ministry put a stop to that, and all we got was the "N", even thought we had qualified as observers; i.e. navigators and bomb-aimers.
Another interesting raised by some was the decision to train us as airmen and not officers. On our course, 3 of us applied for Cranwell cadetships but I was unsuccessful. One of the 2 successful guys, Jock Cochrane, went on to become one of the Concorde test pilots.
Anyway, halfway through our course, Air Ministry had a change of heart, and we suddenly became officer cadets and finally completed our navigation/bomb aiming course training, and graduated as Pilot Officers with our "N" brevet.
Finally, would be fascinated if any readers went through their aircrew training at the same time as me.