Scotland would get 18 fast jets plus 26 helos if it splits

[Navaleye]

Plus 2warships and 26 tanks. Enjoy!

Scottish independence: Minister spells out Scotland (http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-minister-spells-out-scotland-s-share-of-uk-armed-forces-1-2422290?)

[FATTER GATOR]

I suppose it depends on what you would call 'independence'.

If we are talking about total economic, political, judicial, social and geographical independence-with no reliance on the rest of the UK economy or resources; my reaction would be 'paid for with what exactly?' They are going to have to run, staff and maintain schools, free healthcare for all, police, roads, welfare, fire service, free university tuition, criminal justice, parliament, civil service, bus subsidies, tram subsidies, railway subsidies, farm subsidies, NATO subscription (yes they are planning to do that), foreign development, a diplomatic service, culture, media and anything else that people expect of governments. Where does the money for an armed service come from on top of everything else (which they won't be able to afford)?

The argument that Scotland pays most of that on its own already just doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny. The Scottish 'government' may decide what to do with the money it 'generates', but it is the UK which generates that money.

I suspect that if Scotland did vote to 'begin negotiations for independence', the UK governemnt would play hard-ball and negotiate for total economic severence and seek to reduce the interdependence between the 2 economies. Will the SNP learn the lessons from Ireland? I for one hope they don't vote for independence or I may have to leave this bonny land which I have come to love before it exposes its economy to the rest of the world's overspending and lives beyond its own means to pay for fighters, warships and helicopters.

Rant, rant burble rant...

[KiloB]

Won't that represent the total equipment of the entire RAF by then?

KB

[xenolith]

So that's what will happen to the AAC.;)

[Corrona]

And assuming that Alex Salmon wouldn't want any wretched English sounding folk in his newly independent kingdom's military, I assume that all Scottish sounding folk would either run for their new homeland military or be pushed!

[Agaricus bisporus]

And when I become Life President Grand Panjandrum in Chief of the Nation of Rutland I'm going to demand a Bomber sub, two fire engines and a subscription to the Beano.

I've never heard such idiotic bolleaux in my life.

But as we live in a democracy we, the British - that is all of us, will get to vote in a referendum whether we want our nation split up and part of it handed to a minority bunch of fanatical isolationists.

Won't we?

[PURPLE PITOT]

Since the assets belong to Betty, they won't be getting anything unless they buy it!

[baffman]

And assuming that Alex Salmon wouldn't want any wretched English sounding folk in his newly independent kingdom's military, I assume that all Scottish sounding folk would either run for their new homeland military or be pushed! Would Irish and Commonwealth citizens also be banned from the English/Welsh/N Irish armed forces?

A more serious point is that in the event of Scottish independence/separation, the new Scottish defence force (call it what you will) would be competing with England/Wales/N Ireland for some of the same people. This would surely be a problem North of the Border in specialist areas like SF.

The hypothetical independent Scotland would be holding one joker - HMNB Clyde. It would be unlikely to accept the deterrent being based there indefinitely, but there has been increasing chatter about the SSBN/SSN fleets remaining there for the life of Trident.

Arguably this week's news of Salmond's personal support for NATO membership, to be debated at his party's autumn conference, helps to make that a more feasible prospect.

The "18 fast jets, 26 tanks" etc is a calculation based on the national asset register - not a reflection of the actual split which would be in the interests of both countries. It would not be sensible for an independent Scottish defence force to be an exact miniature of the present UK armed forces. Against that, England/Wales/N Ireland might be making a case, in extremely complex negotiations, not to be left with a disproportionate share of expensive legacy assets.

[Hummingfrog]

Agaricus bisporus

Don't worry there isn't a chance that the residents of Scotland will vote for independence. The SNP are back tracking so quickly on all their major issues like NATO, keeping the pound, HM the Queen as head of State, that most sane people can see they are running scared.

The latest load of rubbish is their defence policy - keep Lossie and Leuchars - for what a few 2nd hand FJs, transports and helicopters. You could house them all at say Prestwick and save money. The SNP won't admit that though as they would lose votes so their policy is VOTE FOR Wee Eck AND INDEPENDENCE and nothing will change which the Scots are seeing for the big lie it is. Lots will change and all for the worse.

HF

[brakedwell]

But as we live in a democracy we, the British - that is all of us, will get to vote in a referendum whether we want our nation split up and part of it handed to a minority bunch of fanatical isolationists.

Won't we?

Bet you one Eurofighter Typhoon we won't :sad:

[TT2]

Wee Eck is merely serving a purpose. He is under the unfortunate delusion that Braveheart is a documentry. A pawn in the age old scheme of things when it comes to bargaining - ask for all and meet half way.

Anyway, if Queen Liz wants to flog us some aircraft can we have the Shackletons back please? After we get rid of the subs the redundant shipyard joes will have instant employment. :O

[DB6]

Won't happen. Scots are many things but we know a buch of tossers when we see them.

[tucumseh]

Salmond's not stupid. Agree this split now, knowing fine well MoD won't be able to deliver, and get the compo claim ready for defaulting on the contract. Do what all companies do; slip a few words like "serviceable" and "airworthy" into the contract. Commercial people think "that's reasonable" and let it go. Better still, include "& training facility" and MoD (South Division) will be left without, as Eck will have grabbed the only one.

[Roadster280]

What would a non-nuclear Scotland do with any one of the RN submarines? They are all nuclear powered. Buy back HMS Onyx from the museum?

[Fareastdriver]

Salmond is continuously shooting himself in the foot. His latest sage is to legalise gay marriages in Scotland. They asked for people to fill in a consulative document and 80,000 replies were received that eclipsed returns on other subjects. The SNPs are very keen on legalising gay marriage and rumours are going around the the results of the document was not quite what they wanted and was in variance to the stage managed opinion polls they had previously put forward.
They are now backing off, suggesting that it will wait until it is legalised in the whole of the UK. However, if that does not happen before the Independence referendum then all Scottish voters will know that one of the first acts of an independent Scotland would be to legalise gay marriages.
This will be fought tooth and nail and it will be a major issue in the independence referendum.

[glad rag]

Since the assets belong to Betty, they won't be getting anything unless they buy it! Ah, isn't that nice!

[Roadster280]

Hang on a minute, this might be a cheap deal.

18x Hawks, 26x CVR(T), 2x T42, 1x rusty submarine, a slack handful of SA80A1, and that'll be 3.5 billion please.

[MFC_Fly]

Since the assets belong to Betty, they won't be getting anything unless they buy it!
Considering 'Betty' is not only Queen Elizabeth II of England but Queen Elizabeth I of Scots, why exactly would that be the case PP :confused:

[Jimlad1]

Despite this, the SNP defence policy seems to advocate the closure of Rosyth Dockyard, and acquiring an SSK fleet. Lets ignore the fact that no one in the UK builds SSKs, so Scotlands going to have to buy them overseas.

Bet the Clyde will love that, watching Scottish shipbuilding orders go to foreign yards to meet a defence requirement that makes no logical sense!

[TomJoad]

It is of course not unusual to come across ill informed pish on PPrune, but this thread is classic pish.

[TT2]

'It is of course not unusual to come across ill informed pish on PPRuNe, but this thread is classic pish.'

Pray tell all, old boy.

Call me, 'intrigued............'

[Heathrow Harry]

If the Scots do go their own way you know their defence will go to zero - a few patrol boats, a couple of small MPA aircraft, a large A330 for the Main Man and some hollowed out regiments in skirts to form an honour guard for visiting heads-of-state at Edinburgh

They'll be lucky if they are as big as the Irish armed forces

The SNP are promising everything to everyone and God knows where the cash will come from. Salmond isn't willing to tell people that if they want a Norwegian standard of living they have to pay Norwegian levels of tax.........

[Hummingfrog]

Heathrow Harry

if they want a Norwegian standard of living

I am afraid you are out of date - Ireland/Iceland/Norway are now out of date as comparisons - for obvious reasons - nobody wants a basket case economy or high taxes so the SNP have moved on to Latvia and Estonia as comparisons for what an Independent Scotland would be like.

Wee Eck blows with the wind of the opinion polls - he and his party have no real policies for how an Independent Scotland would perform, he makes it up. He made up the "fact" that Scotland would have a rep on the Bank of England monetary committee even though this could not happen.

HF

[Courtney Mil]

Since the assets belong to Betty, they won't be getting anything unless they buy it!

Considering 'Betty' is not only Queen Elizabeth II of England but Queen Elizabeth I of Scots, why exactly would that be the case PP

Hmm. I would have thought that was obvious. Her Majesty would no longer be Queen of Scots after independance. If you wish to leave the Union, why would you expect the Union to GIVE you stuff. If you want the use of STUFF, stay, if you want to go it alone, go ahead. Just don't expect the remainder of Great Britain to continue to prop you up. OR GIVE YOU ANY STUFF. All that military hardware is UK/GB property; leave the UK/GB and leave the benefits behind.

The choice is yours.

[Fareastdriver]

It is like walking out on a marriage. Close the door and leave everything behind.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Thank you CM, saved me the bother!

[Rob Courtney]

Despite this, the SNP defence policy seems to advocate the closure of Rosyth Dockyard, and acquiring an SSK fleet. Lets ignore the fact that no one in the UK builds SSKs, so Scotlands going to have to buy them overseas.
We dont build SSKs at the moment but you can bet your bottom dollor there is one yard south of the border that could still dust off some plans and build him a couple (at a price of course):E

[500N]

I have Scottish ancestry so I take an interest in this whole debate.

I haven't read everything written on the Scottish Independence debate but
I can't see what the Scots see in going down this route except being able
to say they are free of the English.

They seem to have the best of both worlds at the moment.

It also seems like one person pushed along by a vocal minority and
his own personal hatred of the English and grasping at anything they
can to help sell it to the masses (and changing position if it will help sell it - EU) and of course leaving out the negative parts.

[MFC_Fly]

Hmm. I would have thought that was obvious. Her Majesty would no longer be Queen of Scots after independance. If you wish to leave the Union, why would you expect the Union to GIVE you stuff. If you want the use of STUFF, stay, if you want to go it alone, go ahead. Just don't expect the remainder of Great Britain to continue to prop you up. OR GIVE YOU ANY STUFF. All that military hardware is UK/GB property; leave the UK/GB and leave the benefits behind.

The choice is yours. First off, the choice is not mine as I no longer live in Scotland, but if I did I am certainly NOT in favour of independence and so would not vote for it.

Secondly - Why would Her Majesty no longer be the Queen of Scots? It was King James VI of Scots that united the crowns when he also became King James I of England on the death of the childless Queen Elizabeth I of England. The present royal family can be traced back to that point so the present Queen Elizabeth is equally Queen Elizabeth I of Scots as she is Queen Elizabeth II of England - separation will not alter that fact, just like independence of the multitude of Commonwealth states did not prevent her from remaining their Queen.

[BEagle]

Have the Jockistanis yet been told that soon the only RAF fast jet station remaining in Scotland will be Leuchars?

Rumour doing the round is that both Kinloss and Lossiemouth will go and that the F-35B will be based at Leuchars......

Of course one or other Morayshire aerodrome could go onto C&M pending a future MPA decision.

[Heathrow Harry]

" so the SNP have moved on to Latvia and Estonia as comparisons for what an Independent Scotland would be like." :):):)

[baffman]

It is like walking out on a marriage. Close the door and leave everything behind. Not a bad analogy. And when a marriage ends, even if one party walks out on the other, it still ends with a division of the assets. And of the liabilities.

Even the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921, in somewhat different circumstances, agreed that the Free State would take its share of the UK national debt, and war pension liabilities.

One of the problems with the "close the door and leave everything behind" idea is that it closes off the "what will happen about..." hard questions which need to be asked.

[Fareastdriver]

SNP have moved on to Latvia and Estonia as comparisons for what an Independent Scotland would be like

So that is why there are so many Latvians and Estonians working in Scotland.

[mysterywhiteboy83]

No matter what forum in which you read a thread about Scottish Independence they all end in the same old inane arguments. For me the reason to vote yes in 2014 is this...

Westminster is a lost cause. There is no hope of changing a system that is so putridly corrupt. Perhaps in Scotland, by voting for independence we can have a chance at a new way of doing things. There are no guaruntees on anything, it might all go tits up or we might end up doing very well for ourselves. We will never know until we go. What I will say though is that, whether you like Alec Salmond or not, the SNP have done a good job with the powers they have, so I have no problem giving them a crack at the top job.

[coineach]

As she (Elizabeth) is a direct descendent from the House of Hanover, would Scotland not then be entitled to claim a portion of the German Army, Navy and Airforce? :p

[Navaleye]

Personally, I think the referendum should be held in England as well and that case the overwhelming result would be "Sling your hook and don't come back". Stop the flow of money going up North and sever all umbilicals. Don't let them print any £ locally and give them 12 months to migrate to what ever other currency they choose.

Phew! that feels better already :D

[Courtney Mil]

Ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Corps? :D

[MFC_Fly]

Don't let them print any £ locally
Best you tell that to the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Sudanese, etc - all of whom are not English but all have the 'pound' as their currency. The English do not have the copyright on the use of the word pound for a nations currency, if Scotland want to continue to call an independant currency 'pounds' then who TF are you to say they can't?

However, with the complete mix of English and Scottish blood in people throughout the whole UK I personally hope that this whole bid for independence fails!

Mysterywhiteboy - what would you do if Scotland get "a chance at a new way of doing things" and it fails terribly would you expect, after you had tried your little experiment, that what is left of the Union will open their arms and welcome a sobbing Scotland back into the fold?

[salad-dodger]

Westminster is a lost cause. There is no hope of changing a system that is so putridly corrupt. Perhaps in Scotland, by voting for independence we can have a chance at a new way of doing things. There are no guaruntees on anything, it might all go tits up or we might end up doing very well for ourselves. We will never know until we go. What I will say though is that, whether you like Alec Salmond or not, the SNP have done a good job with the powers they have, so I have no problem giving them a crack at the top job.

Just remind us all how much they managed to spend on those glorified council offices that are passed off as the scottish parliament?

Personally, I hope the UK stays united. If the scots decide to go it alone, then good luck, but don't ever think about coming back to mother England with your tails between your legs.

S-D

[mysterywhiteboy83]

Mysterywhiteboy - what would you do if Scotland get "a chance at a new way of doing things" and it fails terribly would you expect, after you had tried your little experiment, that what is left of the Union will open their arms and welcome a sobbing Scotland back into the fold?

It never even crossed my mind. That's the beauty of living in the real world, when you makes your decisions, good or bad, you take the consequences/rewards that come with them. It will be a brave decision to go it alone and regardless of if we succeed or not I will be proud for having had the balls to make a go at a better future. Even if it did go tits up, its not like things are all rosy as part of the UK.

mother England

Really? Mother England?

[Navaleye]

If you did your homework, you would know that there are three banks in Scotland that can print notes, namely RBS, BoS and the Cldesdale. However, for each £1 they print, they bave to lodge equivalent collateral with the Bank of Ebgland. Simply withdraw this facility and they can print what ever they want, call it what they want and it would be worth about as much as the Syrian Pound on the international currency markets.

Why should we help them 1p more?

[riverrock83]

Westminster is a lost cause. There is no hope of changing a system that is so putridly corrupt. Perhaps in Scotland, by voting for independence we can have a chance at a new way of doing things.

Just remind us all how much they managed to spend on those glorified council offices that are passed off as the scottish parliament?

Personally, I hope the UK stays united. If the scots decide to go it alone, then good luck, but don't ever think about coming back to mother England with your tails between your legs.

S-D


Hmm - I could have sworn that some of the corrupt MPs were from North of the border.
Its the people are the issue - blaming the system rather than those who operate it is surely being naive. Where do you think most of the money for the SNP's independence campaign is coming from (or at least the SNP are hoping that it will come from)? Answer: Business men and women who will hope to have some influence with the SNP if they win their campaign. There are only so many lottery winners in Scotland!
The Scottish Parliament is no less corrupt than Westminster - and you shouldn't expect it to be.

I still fail to see any of the benefits of going independent. It is heart (at least Alex's) over brains. It will take an aweful lot of convincing for me to vote anything but NO.

And wasn't that why Scotland joined England anyway - by crawling with tail between their legs after going bankrupt over the Caledonia escapade?

[Hummingfrog]

MFC

I think you have misinterpreted what naveleye is saying.

Don't let them print any £ locally

He is refering to UK pounds which of course an Inependent Scottish Government could not print.

You refer to an independent pound which is totally different!

if Scotland want to continue to call an independant currency 'pounds' then who TF are you to say they can't?

At the moment Wee Eck's policy is to use the UK pound as Scotland's currency as he knows a Scottish Pound would lose value quite quickly as the oil reserves deplete.

mysterywhiteboy83

same old inane arguments is the argument inane only because you disagree with the conclusions!

From previous posts I note you may want to join BA - if Scotland becomes independant you may not have the right to work in the UK if the EU won't let an independant Scotland in:E

HF

[salad-dodger]

Really? Mother England?

Salmond and the rest of the MSP's are able to promise the Scottish electorate so much because of Scotland's parasitic reliance on England. So yes, really!

That said, I would still rather the UK stay united. Quite simply, we are stronger together!

S-D

[teeteringhead]

" so the SNP have moved on to Latvia and Estonia as comparisons for what an Independent Scotland would be like." .... I came across an interesting if obscure similarity many years ago when researching my Staff College dissertation, which involved the Baltic States.

In UK/USA, when Central Casting wants to provide a cliched stereotyped (perticularly maritime) engineer character, he will inevitably be Scottish - even in Star Trek!

In the USSR (I did say many years ago!) the character would equally inevitably come from the Baltic States - probably Latvia or Estonia.....

[mysterywhiteboy83]

And wasn't that why Scotland joined England anyway - by crawling with tail between their legs after going bankrupt over the Caledonia escapade?

Scotland didn't go bankrupt, the rich "nobles" did after investing in the Darian scheme. A scheme that failed in part due to the interference of the English Navy. The English had been after a union with Scotland to ensure they wouldn't take opposing sides in future wars (eg. the Auld Alliance with France). So it was of mutual benefit (to the upper echelons) rather than one party running with their tails between their legs to the other.

is the argument inane only because you disagree with the conclusions!

From previous posts I note you may want to join BA - if Scotland becomes independant you may not have the right to work in the UK if the EU won't let an independant Scotland in:E

The inane part is where threads go on for pages and pages with people arguing over how many spare tyres we will have for our 6 out of date fast jets.

As for wanting to work for BA, i'm hedging my bets on a common sense approach from the EU (controversial, I know :E). Failing that, there are other fine airlines operating out of Scottish airports that I would be over the moon to work for :).

Scotland's parasitic reliance on England

Can you prove that? I have some figures here (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/03/9525) that seem to say we pay in more than we get back, and proportionally more compared to our percentage of the UK population. But if you have something to refute that I would be interested to read it.

[baffman]

Top tip to anyone south of the Border who genuinely wishes to support the Union:

Try not to use phrases like "Mother England".

Back on thread. About Defence in an independent Scotland, see Professor Malcolm Chalmers' article in the current RUSI Journal, and his April RUSI briefing paper accessible from this link:

RUSI - Briefing Paper: Defence in an Independent Scotland (http://www.rusi.org/publications/other/ref:O4F8C187A31B6E/)

[Navaleye]

Mr Salmond wants to have it both ways. Lets leave yet stay connected and use OUR currency. As Mrs Thatcher said "NO, NO, NO". Once you leave the Union you lose all rights and privileges associated with the Club! If you leave your job, do they still pay into your pension? of course not.

They then face a choice of currency:

1. Print your own

2. Join the EU

Option 1,Would result in the complete wipe out of everyone's savings north of the border as it would have no credibility in the market.

Option 2, Scotland would have to commit to join the Euro within a specified timescale and operate under the edict of the central European Bank. Oh dear. It could not set its own interest rates and worse it would have to conform to strict entry criteria and fiscal policy which means austerity and would prevent the SNP from carrying out its manifesto pledges and be exposed as the incompetents they are. It would also leave them in the same boat as Ireland, Greece and Portugal.

Maybe the Scottish electorate should have this spelled out to them. That is what I meant by cutting the umbilical.

[salad-dodger]

I think, as I suspect many English do, that it would be better to preserve the union. However, if it came to a crunch and any further concessions were required to keep Scotland on board then I'm afraid you can forget it. As I said, Scotland has a parasitic relationship to Mother England. If you don't agree with that point of view, fine, but I suspect that you will find that it is the point of view of many in England, including our resident scots population.

S-D

[salad-dodger]

If you leave your job, do they still pay into your pension? of course not.
I did carry on paying my lottery dues after leaving one job. Couldn't stand the thought of former colleagues winning the jackpot without me. A bit like Salmond's attitude I suppose!

S-D

[mysterywhiteboy83]

I think, as I suspect many English do, that it would be better to preserve the union. However, if it came to a crunch and any further concessions were required to keep Scotland on board then I'm afraid you can forget it. As I said, Scotland has a parasitic relationship to Mother England. If you don't agree with that point of view, fine, but I suspect that you will find that it is the point of view of many in England, including our resident scots population.

Well if we're not basing it on official figures/reports then I suppose an agree to disagree stance will probably work best. But the "Mother England" thing is still getting to me. Why "Mother England"?

[Shack37]

Well if we're not basing it on official figures/reports then I suppose an agree to disagree stance will probably work best. But the "Mother England" thing is still getting to me. Why "Mother England"?


Because he's 12 years old and finds long words difficult.

[Rob Courtney]

Well if we're not basing it on official figures/reports then I suppose an agree to disagree stance will probably work best.

Everyone gets wound up about this, north of the border its seen as England taking Scotland's oil and south of the border its seen as England subsidizing Scotland's welfare state. The thing is the SNP only seem to talk about the last 40 years or so since oil was discovered. If we went back to the start of the union who has come off better?

[salad-dodger]

Why use long words when short words work just as well to convey one's message? Have a look here if you're struggling old fella: Plain English Campaign homepage (http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/)

Whilst on the subject of personal details, I hope that you're safe in your Northern Spain location as that country slides further towards bankruptcy.

From today's Torygraph:
London’s FTSE 100 dropped more than 2pc on Tuesday afternoon after Wall Street continued a global stock market sell-off triggered by fears that Spain might need a full international debt bailout.
You could imagine that same headline being written about Scotland at some point after Salmond and his blinkered cronies get their egotistical desires satisfied. (That would of course be if Scotland's economy was worth bothering about. Perhaps not though, as Salmond appears willing to sacrifice to satisfy his bloated ego.)

S-D

[Shack37]

From previous posts I note you may want to join BA - if Scotland becomes independant you may not have the right to work in the UK if the EU won't let an independant Scotland inhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


I think BA have employees from many independent non EU countries unless of course Singapore, Malaysia, Japan etc have recently joined the EU without my noticing. BA may also cease all operations to EDI, GLA and ABZ but I have doubts that they will.

[Shack37]

Why use long words when short words work just as well to convey one's message? Have a look here if you're struggling old fella: Plain English Campaign homepage (http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/)



I'm not the one struggling, long words are not a problem as they can also be in Plain English and understandable. Good luck with the dynamic duo, Dave and George, your economy is in good hands. Unfortunately when their cock-up comes to fruition my sterling will be just as endangered as my euros.

Why is it that you little Englanders feel so offended because some others think they'd be better off without you? Does it hurt your delicate egos so much.

Believe it or not as you wish, I am very much in favour of the Union, it just really gets up my nose the attitude of some who really believe that the world starts and ends with England and everyone else owes you an eternal debt of gratitude.

Personally I don't believe the people of Scotland will support Wee Eck in his ambitions and any referendum will result in a resounding NO vote. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to say so.

[salad-dodger]

Shack, that's the typed equivalent of drivel. Where did you drag all that up from.

I've got no objection to them having their referendum. I also think it will result in a no vote. Depends on the question the people are asked of course. Salmond certainly won't include expat Jocks either, they know which side their bread is buttered!

I'm guessing that when Spain's economy crumbles you'll be one of many dragging yourself back to the comfort blanket of us little Englanders. That of course is your prerogative, but do us a favour when it happens, come back on here and tell us how good it is to be back in Mother England.

S-D

[Navaleye]

Quite right. They should have a choice as long as they understand what total economic isolation means. I hope they choose the right path, but that's by no means certain. The wrath of the City will be devastating.

[mysterywhiteboy83]

Because he's 12 years old and finds long words difficult.

I didn't realise our ages were on display. Apologies if I have come across as bullying but then It would be a bit patronising of me now to give way. So instead, salad-dodger, some advice from those a little longer in the tooth. Terms like "Mother England" are a little bit offensive to the heritage of the other parts of the UK so maybe best you don't use that in the future mate.

On another note, you should widen your reading a little bit, salad-dodger. If you read the Telegraph exclusively then you will undoubtedly carry on with the opinions you have at the moment. There is plenty of information out there to be found which shows that Scotland is a very productive part of the UK. In fact, it comes only after London and the SE of England in the official UK figures. We are not leaches, nor fools. Our vote in 2014 will be a choice made of pragmatism not idealism.

I would also suggest that making light of the tough situation Spain finds itself in isn't the kindest way to treat your fellow man. I spent a while living in Barcelona in 2011 and in our office we had people coming from all over Spain (particularly the South) with tales of real hardship. Something we have been fortunate enough not to experience (yet) in the UK. Though to say an independent Scotland would also suffer this fate is just speculation and holds as much weight as saying any other country (including England, Wales and NI) would too.

[Shack37]

Shack, that's the typed equivalent of drivel. Where did you drag all that up from.
Excellent debating, point well made.:confused:

I've got no objection to them having their referendum. I also think it will result in a no vote. Depends on the question the people are asked of course. Salmond certainly won't include expat Jocks either, they know which side their bread is buttered!
Almost in agreement


I'm guessing that when Spain's economy crumbles you'll be one of many dragging yourself back to the comfort blanket of us little Englanders. That of course is your prerogative, but do us a favour when it happens, come back on here and tell us how good it is to be back in Mother England.


You're guessing wrong, never happen and certainly not to Single Mother England!

[salad-dodger]

Excellent debating, point well made.
Simplicity dear boy, it got the message across with the minimum of waffle.
You're guessing wrong, never happen and certainly not to Single Mother England!
Good luck with wherever you end up.
Apologies if I have come across as bullying
Not at all, you come across as the typical ABE Scottish football fan.
Terms like "Mother England" are a little bit offensive
noted
you should widen your reading a little bit, salad-dodger
I have many and varied reading sources. I wouldn't say that the Torygraph quote I used put too much of a spin on things, it seems like a fairly straightforward reporting of a situation echoed by many other sources. Would you disagree.
We are not leaches, nor fools.
A matter of opinion.
Our vote in 2014 will be a choice made of pragmatism not idealism.
for some, but your figurehead doesn't seem to base his thinking on pragmatism, quite the reverse many would, and do, argue.
I would also suggest that making light of the tough situation Spain finds itself in isn't the kindest way to treat your fellow man.
Not making light, apologies if it came across that way.

Right, off to make the most of the weather and the beautiful countryside of Mother England.

S-D

[Shack37]

Simplicity dear boy, it got the message across with the minimum of waffle.



The only message it got across is your unbelievable and probably unjustified arrogance.


Not at all, you come across as the typical ABE Scottish football fan.



Pot, kettle, black.

[TomJoad]

Salad Dodger

You really are a bit of a prat.

Thankfully atypical of English folk in general and humanity specifically.

Oh - the first line was devoid of waffle and to the point.

[Hummingfrog]

Shack37

I think BA have employees from many independent non EU countries unless of course Singapore, Malaysia, Japan etc have recently joined the EU without my noticing. BA may also cease all operations to EDI, GLA and ABZ but I have doubts that they will.

Then if working and based in the UK they must either have the right to work in the UK by birth/relationship or have a work visa which allows them to work in the UK - if they have neither then they are working illegally. BA may have staff working in other countries who are not entitled to work in the UK which is fine so long as they satisfy that countries work requirements.

BA(BEA) used to have a Highlands and Islands division - Viscounts VFR into Benbecula in poor viz anybody:eek: I suppose a Scottish passport holder could work for a Scottish division of BA but not one which may require you to reside and work in the UK.

HF

[Abraham Zapruder]

With the Jubilee celebrations and the forthcoming London Olympiad having turned the place red, white and blue for what has been several months, (seems longer), I find it surprising that the most recent poll by TNS-BMRB only shows 50% of Scots in favour of the Union.

You'd think that with the complete absence of media support for the Yes campaign, (with the sole exception of The Scottish Sun), that figure would be much higher.

What is the UK military footprint in Scotland, both current and projected, when compared to the alternative?

[Shack37]

Then if working and based in the UK they must either have the right to work in the UK by birth/relationship or have a work visa which allows them to work in the UK - if they have neither then they are working illegally. BA may have staff working in other countries who are not entitled to work in the UK which is fine so long as they satisfy that countries work requirements.


I was assuming he was referring to a post as aircrew. Is every BA pilot or CC member based or working in the UK? Does a Singaporean or Malaysian national who works long haul require all this paperwork for some routine stopovers in the UK? If they do and/or my assumption above is wrong then my apologies to you.

[Heathrow Harry]

Lets face it - the chances are that the Scots will go - if they want to become Mexico to our USA then fine.... but I'll bet their economy will be in crisis in 5 years

The SNP are very big on what they are going to give but don't have a clue on how they are going to finance it

One thing that has struck me is that once they are independent it's going to be much harder for any Scot to get/keep a job in England - all that extra paperwork for a start - "your papers please"

[Fareastdriver]

Shack 37.

No. They would be employed in their country of domicile and employed either by an overseas subsidery of the UK company or through an agent based in any country. Most International airlines have crews based at large airports along their route tentacles.

[dat581]

If Scotland stays part of the Commonwealth would it's citizens be eligible for dual citizen ship with Britain?

[Hummingfrog]

dat581

A Commonwealth citizen doesn't have any right to dual citizenship.

There are hundreds of questions that need to be answered before one could make a reasoned answer to the question "Could Scotland be a successful independent country"? Unfortunately the calibre of politicians we have makes this virtually impossible to answer as myths are dressed up as facts and facts twisted to give the answer the politician wants.

It will come down to what each individual thinks will be best for his personal circumstances - there are very few Scots who will vote on the premise of " Damn the consequences it is independence for me!"

I am a Brit (Welsh mother English father) living in Scotland married to a Scot with one English and one Scottish child. So, for example, I have one question I want answered - as a non Scot will I be an expat and have my pension paid by the UK and who will pay my wife's pension as she is a native Scot?

When questioned about such details the SNP answer is that once we have conned you into voting for independence then these details will be negotiated with the UK Government - talk about turkeys voting for Xmas:(

HF

[ORAC]

If Scotland stays part of the Commonwealth would it's citizens be eligible for dual citizen ship with Britain? No more than a Canadian or an Australian.

However, assuming that an independent Scotland was accepted into the EU; though the Spanish and/or Italians might use a veto to stop a precedent being sent for their own regions such as Catalonia doing the same in future; then they could be employed anywhere in the EU and could vote in local and European elections - though not a general election.

*Edited to add that, based on the precedent of the independence of Ireland (both my parents were Irish borne before 1922), those Scots borne before independence as British would retain that and would possess dual nationality. Those borne after would only have Scottish nationality.

The issue of the nationality of the children of Scots born elsewhere in the UK would probably follow the same rules as implemented by the Irish constitution (up to the Scots parliament of course) where anyone having a parent or grandparent from Ireland is entitled to claim Irish citizenship.

[Shack37]

Shack 37.

No. They would be employed in their country of domicile and employed either by an overseas subsidery of the UK company or through an agent based in any country. Most International airlines have crews based at large airports along their route tentacles.


Thanks FED, I think that is what I was trying to say ie Scotland becoming independent would not preclude a Scot from being employed by BA (or subsidiary), based in Scotland and travelling through the UK on duty trips.
Am I getting close?:ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Shack37

As far as I know all aircrews working for BA mainline are EU citizens with JAR Licenses. It is highly unlikely that BA would employ aircrew who don't have the right to work in the UK as it would make scheduling and fleet moves too difficult. BALPA may also have a say in the matter as there are too many unemployed pilots as it is in the UK. This sort of nitty gritty employment law is what Scots need to think of very carefully before voting for independence.

Independence is for life and WILL change Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK.

HF

[mysterywhiteboy83]

However, assuming that an independent Scotland was accepted into the EU; though the Spanish and/or Italians might use a veto to stop a precedent being sent for their own regions such as Catalonia doing the same in future; then they could be employed anywhere in the EU and could vote in local and European elections - though not a general election.

Spain: we wouldn't block Scotland's bid to join EU | Herald Scotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/political-news/spain-we-wouldnt-block-scotlands-bid-to-join-eu.17243653?_=4072dd074c944f005bb25c006d8b98a5adedefaf)

[Abraham Zapruder]

Anybody reading this thread would be forgiven for thinking that:

a) The EU, with all the freedom of movement and trade which goes with it, doesn't exist.

(Both Scotland and the UK of E, W & NI would be bound to all EU treaties entered into by the previous Govts. of the UK of GB & NI; including membership of the EU).

b) The UK, in its current form, is unique amongst Western states in that it has no national debt.

In 2010-11, Scotland’s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £18.6 billion (15.6 per cent of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £17.9 billion (14.7 per cent of GDP) when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £10.7 billion (7.4 per cent of GDP) when a geographical share of North Sea revenue is included. In 2010-11, the equivalent UK position including 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, referred to in the UK Public Sector Accounts as ‘net borrowing’, was a deficit of £136.1 billion (or 9.2 per cent of GDP)
c) The first consequence for an independent Scotland will be to see Hadrian's Wall moved north-eastwards and to take the form of a barrier more akin to that separating the two Koreas.

(Even at the height of the troubles, people/goods/services still moved freely between Northern Ireland and that part of Ireland which, within living memory, was also once part of the UK)

d) Scotland's First Minister, The Rt. Hon Alex Salmond MSP, and his party receive not one ounce of popular support in Scotland.

(How exactly do you get a Majority Government in a system designed to produce only Minority/Coalition Governments?)

e) There is no apetite for political change in Scotland whatsoever.

(Despite the most patriotic and royalist outpouring of Britishness since the end of WWII, current polls indicate that support for the Union in Scotland remains steady at 50%)

[Fareastdriver]

As far as I know all aircrews working for BA mainline are EU citizens with JAR Licenses
Fly Heathrow/Hong Kong and you will find some of the cabin staff are Hong Kong (Chinese) citizens. As they are not resident in the UK they come into the UK on crew visas; the same as Philipino crewmen of what is left of British registered ships.

[Fareastdriver]

This is the beginning of the end of Scotland's share in the North Sea oil industry.

Press and Journal - Article - Chinese snap up North Sea fields (http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2863688)

[mysterywhiteboy83]

This is the beginning of the end of Scotland's share in the North Sea oil industry.

They are not buying the sea from Scotland (currently UK). They simply bought over two companies that drill in the North Sea. Two Canadian companies I might add. So Scotland's (currently the UK's) sea's are still safely in our hands.

[melmothtw]

Behave yourself Mysterywhiteboy83, facts have no place on PPRUNE!!

[mysterywhiteboy83]

My apologies, i'm still quite new to all this. :8

[Fareastdriver]

So Scotland's (currently the UK's) sea's are still safely in our hands.

You obviously don't know the Chinese like I do. I used to work with the Chinese oil industry.

[mysterywhiteboy83]

You obviously don't know the Chinese like I do. I used to work with the Chinese oil industry.

....obviously. Do I sense some doomsday scenario building? :ugh:

[Wrathmonk]

They are not buying the sea from Scotland (currently UK). They simply bought over two companies that drill in the North Sea. Two Canadian companies I might add. So Scotland's (currently the UK's) sea's are still safely in our hands.

Only out to 12 nm surely. Or is there a difference between 'territorial waters' and 'international waters' when it comes to oil?

Edited to add - found the answer myself. Doh. Exclusive Economic Zone, based on the United Kingdom Continental Shelf blah blah blah.

[Hummingfrog]

Abraham Zapruder

(Both Scotland and the UK of E, W & NI would be bound to all EU treaties entered into by the previous Govts. of the UK of GB & NI; including membership of the EU).

This is Wee Eck's position - I will only believe when the President of the European Commission says this is the case - there has been a deafening silence from the EU on this point.

I would have thought that by leaving the UK Scotland would also leave all treaties signed by the UK. After all Scotland was leaving NATO even though there are treaty obligations signed by the UK - oops sorry Wee Eck news flash he saw opinion polls showing this wasn't a popular idea so now Scotland is staying in NATO.:confused:

(Even at the height of the troubles, people/goods/services still moved freely between Northern Ireland and that part of Ireland which, within living memory, was also once part of the UK)

Rubbish - I spent many an hour intercepting traffic along the border - I may be wrong but you may still have to tell Special Branch if you are flying GA from the UK to Eire.

HF

[Abraham Zapruder]

Rubbish - I spent many an hour intercepting traffic along the border - I may be wrong but you may still have to tell Special Branch if you are flying GA from the UK to Eire.

What part of "free movement" did your actions hinder exactly? You might have had authority to interview/detain/deny access, having established reasonable grounds for doing so, but no more so than any UK Border Agency employee. Any EU citizen can be prevented from entering the UK if the UKBA have reasonable grounds, however this does not change the basic principles of freedom of movement within the EU.

Airlines must provide the US INS/Dept. of Homeland Security a damned sight more info than Special Branch require of me to hop from Liverpool to Aldergorve in a PA28. Unless you could argue that having to pick up the 'phone and take less than 5 minutes to provide aircraft registration/type, point of departure/ETD, details of persons on board, route and destination/ETA is in itself preventing "free movement".

As for the EU, (whose treaties differ markedly from those of NATO), deafening silences can be taken in two ways. When all is said and done, it simply comes down to which legal opinion carries the day.

PS Cold day in hell when politicians stop pandering to public opinion when it suits. Fuel duty increase anyone???

[ORAC]

I think you'll find the relevant legislation is covered under the Common Travel Area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area), which doubtless would simply be reworded to include Scotland. With a common land border anything else would be ridiculous.

[Rob Courtney]

anything else would be ridiculous.

This is the EU we are talking about remember:E

[Heathrow Harry]

"by leaving the UK Scotland would also leave all treaties signed by the UK"

it's covered by the Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties

If the SNP claim they are refugees from colonialism they are covered by Article 16 otherwise it's Article 34.


Article 16 states that newly independent states receive a "clean slate", whereas article 34(1) states that all other new states remain bound by the treaty obligations of the state from which they separated.



Article 17 states that newly independent states may join multilateral treaties to which their former colonisers were a party without the consent of the other parties in most circumstances, whereas article 9 states that all other new states may only join multilateral treaties to which their predecessor states were a part with the consent of the other parties.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

Excellent! As James I of England was already James VI of Scotland at the time of his succession, can we claim that we were in fact colonised by the Jocks, claim we are the "refugees of colonialism", start with our clean slate and get rid of the bits of the EU Laws we don't like?

Simples.

[Abraham Zapruder]

HH

Not quite sure your paraphrasing of the wording of the articles is wholly accurate. But a link here (http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/3_2_1978.pdf) for others to judge for themselves.

Always puzzled me that having jointly entered into a Union through twin Acts of Parliament, 1706, thereby creating a single entity in 1707, that should such legislation be repealed then you cease being a single entity and revert to two new entities.

Forgetting about the RoI/NI aspect for the moment as the Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of treaties didn't exist in 1922, surely in the event of a 'Yes' vote, the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland will be replaced by the Kingdom of Scotland and the United Kingdom of England, Wales & Northern Ireland.

Therefore two new states will be formed from a single entity for which presumably the same rules in respect of Treaties entered into by the former Govt. of the UK of GB & NI will apply.

Put simply, if one must apply for UN/EU/NATO membership, so does the other.

[mysterywhiteboy83]

Put simply, if one must apply for UN/EU/NATO membership, so does the other.

Exactly!!!

[Heathrow Harry]

Sorry guys we don't have to do anything - Art 35 states

Article 35
Position if a State continues after separation of part of its territory

When, after separation of any part of the territory of a State, the predecessor State continues to exist, any treaty which at the date of the succession of States was in force in respect of the predecessor State continues in force in respect of its remaining territory unless:

(a) the States concerned otherwise agree;

(b) it is established that the treaty related only to the territory which has separated from the predecessor State; or

(c) it appears from the treaty or is otherwise established that the application of the treaty in respect of the predecessor State would be incompatible with the object and purpose of the treaty or would radically change the conditions for its operation


Since the UK of England etc is a continuing state and the Jocks are leaving so this article applies

[Abraham Zapruder]

I don't think that article applies to be honest.

Scotland was not absorbed into a Greater England in 1707, as Wales was absorbed into the Kingdom of England in 1535. If it had, then Article 35 would indeed apply in the event that Scotland sought to resume its former status as an independent sovereign state. (As it would in respect of Wales and England should Wales elect to become an independent sovereign state).

What in fact happened in 1707 was that two independent, sovereign states joined to create an entirely new independent sovereign state in the form of the Kingdom of Great Britain. The Kingdom of Scotland did not therefore join the Kingdom of England, nor vice versa.
That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN. (Article 1)

Having jointly created the Kingdom of Great Britain, should either party then elect to dissolve the union of 1707, then logic if not law would suggest that the Kingdom of Great Britain will then cease to exist and the two parties concerned shall revert to their former status; namely the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, (which since 1535 has included Wales).

The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Nothern Ireland would therefore be replaced by two successor states: The Kingdom of Scotland and whatever title the remainder wished to be styled; The Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland, The United Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland, The United Kingdom of England, Wales & Northern Ireland, etc.

Therefore Article 35 would apply in respect of Wales and England, but it would not apply in respect of Scotland and Great Britain; Scotland did not 'join' Great Britain - it established it, together with England.

[mysterywhiteboy83]

Therefore Article 35 would apply in respect of Wales and England, but it would not apply in respect of Scotland and Great Britain; Scotland did not 'join' Great Britain - it established it, together with England.

Agreed. I'm not sure if either of you guys are lawyers but it would be interesting to hear a legal opinion on this. Certainly, as a layman, I would say Abraham Zapruder's take makes sense.

[Hummingfrog]

I don't think we have to worry about legalities of separation after the SNP decided to push through gay marriage legislation despite over 80,000 people taking part in the consultation process, of which the majority were against. (what is the point of consultation if you ignore the results!!:ugh:)

It seems political suicide to go against the beliefs of so many people of different faiths. A previous poster commented on Weee Eck's political savvy in reversing his opposition to NATO having seen opinion polls showing a majority in favour of NATO membership.

It seems strange that he would risk his dream on this policy. He may well be punished by the electors over this.

HF

[melmothtw]

If you're opposed to gay marriage, don't marry gays.

Loving the thread drift by the way...

[Fareastdriver]

Alsolutely right. I can see the billboards now;

A VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE IS A VOTE FOR GAY MARRIAGES

There was not a lot of support for the SNP in the north and west of Scotland but Nicolas Sturgeon has really blown what support there was. 67% of the comments were against gay marriages and she is adamant that the elected Scottish Parliament decides what is right for Scotland.

[melmothtw]

If you're "absolutely right" comment was directed at me FarEastDriver, I would say that, judging from your follow-on remarks, you have completely misjudged the sentiment of my post.

[Abraham Zapruder]

Back to the subject...

I'm no lawyer, but there is a precedent:

Czechoslovakia emerged in 1918 as a result of the union between the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Carpathian Ruthenia. (The Czech Republic having emerged as a result of the union between Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia). After WWII Carpathian Ruthenia ceded from Czechoslovakia and by the 1970s the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic comprised the Czech Socialist Republic and Slovak Socialist Republic.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland emerged in 1801 as a result of the union between the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland. (The Kingdom of Great Britain having emerged as a result of the union between the Kingdom of England and Kingdom of Scotland). After WWI the Irish Free State ceded from the United Kingdom and by the 1930s the United Kingdom comprised Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

In 1993 the then Czech and Slovak Federative Republic split into its founding states: The Czech Republic and Slovak Republic. Neither of these successor states were regarded as being a "predecessor State (which) continues to exist" as per Article 35.

Placing to one side Northern Ireland (it not having formed part of the Kingdom of Great Britain but part of the Kingdom of Ireland) and Wales (it having formed part of the Kingdom of England), Great Britain would, if split, revert to its founding states: The Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of England. Neither of these successor states would be regarded as being a "predecessor State (which) continues to exist" as per Article 35.

[Shack37]

There was not a lot of support for the SNP in the north and west of Scotland but Nicolas Sturgeon has really blown what support there was. 67% of the comments were against gay marriages and she is adamant that the elected Scottish Parliament decides what is right for Scotland.

FED
In that case Nicola will not object to the gender reassignment you have allocated her.;)

[Heathrow Harry]

yeah but how many people actually responded? Not even a working majority of the Catholic population - even after a full on campaign by the various churches

just the usual bigots in fact

I suspect there are more gays in Scotland than church goers anyway

[Shack37]

Two thirds of 80,000 people consulted were against it. Just the usual bigots? Looks to me to be a sufficient number to allow a full referendum at least.

Scotland To Legalise Same-Sex Marriage - Yahoo! News UK (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/scotland-legalise-same-sex-marriage-143439362.html)

[Shack37]

1.5% of the population were interested enough to have responded, 1% of the population are against it with enough vehemence to say so, and we think that's worthy of a full referendum?

As I read it 80,000 was the number of people CONSULTED.
Therefore: 80,000 = 100%
Therefore: Against = 66%
For = 34%

So yes, I would rate that result as justifying a full referendum of the "Population"

Oh dear, the post I replied to seems to have disappeared.

[TT2]

Nobody polled me or anybody I that know in these parts whether we approved or not. Mind you, not a lot of Catholics or Wee Frees around here. As for more Gays than church goers that is probably true. They've turned all the churches into night clubs anyway - I assume they have 'Gay nights'?.

[Fareastdriver]

melmothtw.

Not for you. Look at the times; I was typing mine when yours went in.

[baffman]

That has to be the world champion example of thread drift.

[Shack37]

That has to be the world champion example of thread drift.


Why? Airpolice was answering an existing post however inaccurate it was. Or was that original poster also guilty of thread drift?

[Heathrow Harry]

CONSULTED = those who sent in a something during the consultation open period = usual bigots

[Shack37]

CONSULTED = those who sent in a something during the consultation open period = usual bigots


I bow to you're superior debating skills.

[Hummingfrog]

CONSULTED = those who sent in a something during the consultation open period = usual bigots

Who are these bi-gots? Do they swing both ways - hetro-gots and homo-gots.

Heathrow Harry - you aren't Gordon Brown are you - he was the last person to make a fool of himself by classing someone as a bigot because she spoke commonsense.

HF

[mysterywhiteboy83]

Firstly, the consultation is not a referendum. There are reasons given for or against Equal marriage. Therefore the reasons given can be assessed. "I'm a raging homophobe" is not a sufficiently convincing argument.

Second, the information that was available to the government to make this decision did not only come from the consultation. There have also been polls and they have consistently shown 65% support for Equal marriage. Why can't the bigots just accept that this is the 21st century. The majority want this. A church led postcard campaign cannot stop what is meant to be.

In 20 years, on this issue, people will look back upon the Catholic Church as we now look upon those racists who would not allow equal rights for Blacks, or those who would not allow equal rights for women. Anyone care to declare that only the straight white man may vote?

And yes, this is a helluva swing off topic. Abraham, I reckon your research carries some weight, made for very interesting reading!

[Icanseeclearly]

I have the grave misfortune to live north of the border and find this whole thing depressing its so Typical of the SNP and cybernats.

It's a consultation not a referendum blah blah blah

Can't wait to see what they say when the results of their consultation on independence comes out (which by the way received far fewer responses than that on that than gay marriage) bet they don't ignore it like the westminsters one.

To get back to the original thread, where are they going to get The crews from?
Where are they going to train them? ( very expensive to set up a training system if south of the border then we, and I speak as an Englishman, can charge what we want). Where will they maintain them, st athan?

I knew Angus Robertson very well at university, the phrase 'not a clue' comes to mind, last time a saw him, we had a "debate" (on which I was obviously wrong as you can't disagree with the SNP about anything) he told me I knew nothing about it, I was still serving at the time and pointed out 16 years in military aviation may give me an insight, no he said I was just a minion, know nothing and are English so have no say, How can you have a sensible debate with that.........other than yes I do have a say as I live here

Tell me wheres good to live in northern England should Salmonds utopia become a reality, god forbid.......

[Icanseeclearly]

Airpolice,

Only a two one honours degree in Engineering I'm afraid, so sorry my English has upset you old boy.

Rather than having a go, why not answer the question, assuming you have them that is.

[baffman]

Getting ever further from the thread subject, but some contributors are forgetting that this sort of thing is also being proposed at UK level. If you don't like it, there is no point just railing at Salmond and the SNP.

I'll legalise gay marriage by 2015, warns Cameron... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179032/Ill-legalise-gay-marriage-2015-PM-Cameron-warns-opponents-Church-lock-people-out.html)

[Heathrow Harry]

and you know like a lot of things the sky will not fall on our heads

in the last few years the following have been tagged as "the end of life as we know it"

all day drinking
smoking bans
gays in the military
seat belts
women afloat in the RN
a woman Prime Minister
allowing people to take foreign currency on holiday
women priests (CofE)

and oddly enough a couple of years later no-one can imagine what the fuss was about ;);)

[TT2]

Don't forget motorcycle crash helmets. I still meet people who think it should be their right or not to wear helmet. Fair enough if they sign a waiver to forego any emergency or theraputic treatment after a sudden meeting with planet earth.

They would never argue about their right or not to wear a seabelt on Squeezy Jet.....would they?.

[Shack37]

in the last few years the following have been tagged as "the end of life as we know it"

all day drinking
smoking bans
gays in the military
seat belts
women afloat in the RN
a woman Prime Minister
allowing people to take foreign currency on holiday
women priests (CofE)


At least three of these can hardly be classed as happening in the "last few years" and I've never regarded any as "the end of life as we know it"
but (by your yardstick) of course I must be one of the "usual bigots":confused:

[Heathrow Harry]

depends how old you are dear boy.................

"a thousand ages in your sight are like an evening gone" when you're my age..........

and just go back and look what people said at the time - the Beeb looked into a couple of them a year back and a few people were honest enough to say that maybe they had gone a bit OTT at the time

[Courtney Mil]

Whilst I take your points (and they are well made & valid), things are never that simple, Harry.

all day drinking - we don't actually have that and a lot of pubs find it non-profitable so close in the afternoons.

smoking bans - did make a big difference to most pubs, but has been overtaken by other influences.

gays in the military - there have always been gays in the military.

seat belts - who am I to argue. I always thought they were a good thing when flying.

women afloat in the RN - ah. Women flot better than men :E

a woman Prime Minister - regrdless of my opinion, I understand the jury's still out on that one.

allowing people to take foreign currency on holiday - it's still less expensive to buy it when you get there.

women priests (CofE) - many think it's still wrong.

I'd rather be flying. Even if it is with an alcoholic, smoking, RN navigtor (or whatever!) lady that refuses to strap in properly, has delusions about running the country, giving communion and that smuggles money abroad. As long as she can fix the kit on recovery.

:cool:

[downsizer]

I've not seen a pub close in the afternoon for years, you must be in the sticks.....:sad:

[Fareastdriver]

It was only because we had a World War on our hands that they started closing the pubs at certain times anyway.

[NutLoose]

As a Carlisian, I'll vouch for that, though not all the way back to WW1... It was so bad and disrupting munition supplies they Nationalised the Brewery and Pubs to control the drinking.

[Shack37]

Whilst I take your points (and they are well made & valid), things are never that simple, Harry.



Points well made? What points, please don't encourage him to go even more philosophical.


depends how old you are dear boy.................

"a thousand ages in your sight are like an evening gone" when you're my age..........

and just go back and look what people said at the time - the Beeb looked into a couple of them a year back and a few people were honest enough to say that maybe they had gone a bit OTT at the time

I remember all of them including the limiting of how much money you could take out of the country but not sure about a time when you couln't. I do not remember being told the world was about to end by anybody. Certainly don't recall riots in the streets because we had to wear seatbelts.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Without wishing to contribute toi even more thread drift, but....

all day drinking


Whilst it doesn't actually exist in reality, I am absolutely certain that there are lots who live near late night drinking venues and lots of inner city police, ambulance and A & E staff that would still say that "all day drinking" hasn't exactly been the best thing since sliced bread. :(

[Heathrow Harry]

time to stop the thread drift

just how will the SNP man the new RSAF?? Volunteers from the RAF?

[baffman]

just how will the SNP man the new RSAF?? Volunteers from the RAF?

I don't see any alternative initially. It is hard to predict but I wonder if it might be easier to attract volunteers for the air element than some other specialists, such as SF, who will see a more meaningful career staying with "UKEWNI" (sorry!)

Not suggesting that RAF personnel may not have similar motivations, but for aircrew, at least they will still be flying and some will be attracted to return to, or stay in, Scotland.

One theory I have heard is that the hypothetical force would not be operating advanced combat aircraft, but something like Hawk, plus C130, Sea King, Chinook, a few maritime reconnaissance of some kind (sadly not Nimrod, think fishery protection?).

[aergid]

I wonder if all the rusting hulks of nukes will be shipped back to sunny Guz or Pompey because as I see it Scotland has a Nuclear detterent does the rest of the UK?

As for economic strategy:

We will eat Shortbread and Haggis
We will drink whisky and Irn-Bru

What else do we need :ugh:

[Fareastdriver]

You forgot the fish suppers and the deep fried Mars Bars.

[Shack37]

But, sadly for some, not Rangers.

[LFFC]

Does Scotland really want fast jets?

RAF pilots scale back Tattoo fly-past after noise complaints (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9467851/RAF-pilots-scale-back-Tattoo-fly-past-after-noise-complaints.html)

[sitigeltfel]

Does Scotland really want fast jets?

RAF pilots scale back Tattoo fly-past after noise complaints (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9467851/RAF-pilots-scale-back-Tattoo-fly-past-after-noise-complaints.html)

Some of the words used in the article...

Thunderous
Blazing
Screaming
Roaring
Screeching
Deafening
Vibrating
Terrifying

Sound just right to me :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

What a load of wimps.

[Wensleydale]

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9467851/RAF-pilots-scale-back-Tattoo-fly-past-after-noise-complaints.html)RAF pilots scale back Tattoo fly-past after noise
complaints (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9467851/RAF-pilots-scale-back-Tattoo-fly-past-after-noise-complaints.html)
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9467851/RAF-pilots-scale-back-Tattoo-fly-past-after-noise-complaints.html)
This from the nation that plays bagpipes!!!

[Heathrow Harry]

From a UK perspective:-

What we need = a rational non-political look at threats & resources

What we want = what we need to impress the Yanks & look better than the Frogs

What we can afford = very little

What we have = a mish -mash of some very decent aircraft and some real clunkers operated by some very good people but run by self serving SO's aiming for their "K"

[Shack37]

Seems to me there continues to be a lot of hot air and poo being spouted here over something that's not gonna happen. Deep down, even wee Eck knows it. That's why he's trying to delay his referendum as long as possible. He's never gonna get the result he wants (if he really wants it).

There are more non-Scots posting here postulating how Scotland could not survive or defend itself without England. Their point appears to be that the ungrateful prats north of the border don't deserve us so let 'em go, we're better off without them anyway.

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it but from what I understand your senior politicians think otherwise.

[baffman]

Shack, I agree with a lot of that but the one thing which IS gonna happen is that - barring the end of the world etc -a Scottish independence referendum WILL be held in a little over two years' time.

You may be right that independence isnt gonna happen, but in so saying, we are doing little more than trying to predict the result of a horse race two years in advance.

I accept that there is already huge irritation with the issue, and that many of us will be even more sick of it come 2014.

There is also a lot of guff around, as you rightly say. All the more reason, I think, for developing a clearer picture before people go to the polls. This takes time. A few months ago there was very little information around as to what form a Scottish defence force might take, and now there is - some.

If this forum can't manage the occasional bit of rational discussion amongst the banter, who can?

[Heathrow Harry]

just wait until the tabloids decide to "investigate" various members of the SNP................

[Gulfstreamaviator]

How many will Scotland have claim to.....

I am 1/3 Scot, so do have a vested interest in the situation.

As an aside if I need a hip replaceed I will claim to be 3/3 Scot.

glf

[hval]

Will I be allowed to borrow any of these aircraft to fly to Ayia Napa on holiday? I promise to wear my white shell suit, white socks and white trainers, whilst wearing loads of big bling.

[Skeleton]

SCOTLAND’s athletes will remain part of Team GB at the 2016 Olympic Games even if the country separates from the UK, it emerged yesterday.

Senior Games’ officials have insisted that it would be a long time before the International Olympic Committee (IOC) allowed Scotland to compete as an independent nation.

First Minister Alex Salmond said London 2012 would be the last Games with Scots competing for Team GB.

Let's look at what other nonsense Salmond has said; "Free by 93" haha "The Union Won't see 300" haha "The Eurozone is a vote winner for independence" haha "We could be like Ireland". How can anyone listen to this man.

[Shack37]

just wait until the tabloids decide to "investigate" various members of the SNP................


How about sharing some of your your inside info HH.

[Ronald Reagan]

Being able to get away from the Westminster elite sounds very appealing! We don't even have an elected upper house. Good luck to the Scots IF they vote to leave the UK. Nothing lasts forever, sometimes change is a good thing!

[Skipness One Echo]

We don't even have an elected upper house.
Scotland has no upper house so the issues the UK has with second rate legislation getting onto the statute books are worse. Most at Holyrood are wee fish in a wee pond, Salmond looks good as he's a big fish in the wee pond. Any ambitious and talented Unionist politico heads for Westminster.

[Shack37]

Baffman


Shack, I agree with a lot of that but the one thing which IS gonna happen is that - barring the end of the world etc -a Scottish independence referendum WILL be held in a little over two years' time.


Of course, the referendum is going to happen. My opinion is that, however "oor Alec" tries to influence the result by the wording of the question, the outcome will be a NO to independence.

Before retiring I lived in Scotland for some 20 years and at no time experienced any kind of discrimination as reported by some resident non Scots. I have many friends who initially were pleased to see a SNP government only to be later disappointed by some of their policies.

[tonker]

If the Olympics taught us anything, it is that individually we are great nations, but together a world power on many levels. Always were and always will.

United we stand....

[Courtney Mil]

...divided Scotland falls.

[Melchett01]

a Scottish independence referendum WILL be held in a little over two years' time.

Didn't I recently see a comment in the Telegraph recently that suggested that Scotland isn't actually legally entitled to hold a referendum as powers over constitutional reform aren't included in the devolution settlement?

If so, and whilst I'm pretty sure it will happen at some point, if this article was correct, Salmond first has to apply for the legal powers to hold a referendum on constitutional issues to be given to Hollyrood and by all accounts he is stalling. Until that transfer happens, this is little more than 6th form debating society issue.

[Shack37]

If so, and whilst I'm pretty sure it will happen at some point, if this article was correct, Salmond first has to apply for the legal powers to hold a referendum on constitutional issues to be given to Hollyrood and by all accounts he is stalling. Until that transfer happens, this is little more than 6th form debating society issue.


He is stalling in as much as the Westminster government want him to hold it sooner than he would like to.

[Skeleton]

Wee Eck is stalling because he knows he wont be allowed to word the referendum as he would wish.

This is the man remember that along with the other loony tunes, the Ewing clan, wanted the RAF out of Flossie and Deadloss in the 80's. A fact he was reminded of on a visit to Elgin, and one he he didnt like lol.

Mind you i dont think he likes facts.

[Heathrow Harry]

You know there is something extremely shifty about Salmond -comes of being a bankers creature at one time I guess

[Melchett01]

Well unless he quits stalling and asks for the legal transfer of powers, he won't be getting anything.

[baffman]

Wee Eck is stalling because he knows he wont be allowed to word the referendum as he would wish.

This is the man remember that along with the other loony tunes, the Ewing clan, wanted the RAF out of Flossie and Deadloss in the 80's. A fact he was reminded of on a visit to Elgin, and one he he didnt like lol.

Mind you i dont think he likes facts. Interesting. Not saying you are right or wrong, but is there any evidence that they wanted the RAF bases out? I realise that it would have pre-dated the internet.

I would be surprised if that is right about the Ewings. Winnie (MP) was supportive of the two RAF bases surely, at least in principle - she would have been mad to be anything else. Margaret (MSP) was more to the left I think, and got involved in constituent's issues about low flying, but "wanted the RAF bases out"??

[rab-k]

All you Torygraph readers seem intent on doing is demonising the FM and ignoring the elephant in the room; 45% of the electorate voted SNP in the Scottish Parliament general election 2011, and the most recent polls I can find show those in Scotland in favour of a continuation of the Union with England stands at 50%. (Whether there is a post-Olympics bounce to that remains to be seen). All down to the efforts the FM? Me thinks not...

Should 8.4% of the UK population decide that the 1707 Act of Union has had its day, and that after 3 centuries it is no longer fit for purpose, then so be it. I'm sure those 91.6% left in the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland will cope just fine.

(As for the Trident Subs, given they're in effect USN boats under a White Ensign, paid for by the UK tax payer to guarantee the UK a perm-seat on the UN Security Council, I'm sure space could be found for them at Kings Bay. The US knows where the Vanguard boats are at any given time and have the final say as to whether they're used in anger, so surely no major issue in borrowing a couple of berths in Georgia).

As for those left in the Kingdom of Scotland, the rest, including a Self Defence Force tailored to our needs, will be up to us.

Should all this be too much for some of you Torygraph readers to contemplate, shall I spell it out in words of one syllable what you can go and do? :E

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I saw that the SNP has decided that an independent Scotland will be free from nuclear weapons, but will want to remain a part of NATO.

What obligations will this bring with regard to QRA? I presume it'll be the case that Scotland will either need to ask the RAF to kindly leave a couple of squadrons at Lossie to maintain QRA(I) north, or they'll need to do it themselves else the Norweigans won't have anyone to hand off marauding Bears to.

Is there any route to NATO membership without this, or are we going to see an interceptor capability in the SNP's manifesto?

[downsizer]

Maybe they will go down this route....

Baltic Air Policing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Air_Policing)

[JFZ90]

If the trident force have to leave scotland, it will surely cost a fortune, a fortune we (the uk, inc scotland) can ill afford at the moment.

It will be interesting to see what the timescale for removal would be. There is a strong case for scotland paying the full bill if it does have to move...

The whole attitude from Salmond seems to be one of 'not my problem' - makes me sick to be honest.

[Navaleye]

The Americans have a vested interest under START in supporting our independent deterrent and would come to a deal to use Kings Bay more than we are now.

We could easily:

* Move SSN and SSBN ops to Devonport where the facilities to do so already exist.

* Remove remaining minesweeper force to Devonport and close Faslane that would leave it like Holy Loch. Not popular with the locals.

* Close Lossie and transfer all RAF assets to Leeming or Marham.

* Terminate all UK govt funded work from the Clyde to England. Perhaps the Scottish government will start ordering ships to keep them open.

Bring it on! :D

[Lima Juliet]

Navaleye

:D:D:D Exactly! :D:D:D

All that would be left would be a few Regts of Scots Pongos and their vehicles/tanks.

Now what would be interesting would be if the English, Welsh and Northern Irish had a vote on whether to get rid of the Scots, their idiotic leadership and the burden that their "independence" places on the rest of us...:ok:

LJ

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Hold the bus LJ! Don't tar us all with the SNP brush!

Duncs:ok:

[500N]

"Now what would be interesting would be if the English, Welsh and Northern Irish had a vote on whether to get rid of the Scots, their idiotic leadership and the burden that their "independence" places on the rest of us...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"


It would be very funny if Cameron said that the 3 would hold a vote early next year and before Scotland held it's vote and came up with the reverse Policies plus a bit more (ie as said by Navaleye - remove all defense south of the border).

And show a poll that says it would be successful.

I reckon the Scots would be up in arms over it, kicking and screaming
and would do everything in their power to legally stop it.

Maybe someone needs to set up an April fools joke along these lines ???

[CoffmanStarter]

How about putting Salmond on trial for treason ... :E

[Ronald Reagan]

If the majority of Scots wish to leave I see no problem. Maybe one day Wales and Northern Ireland will also wish to have a vote. At the end of the day if the majority of people wish to be free of the London elite I can understand that! I wish to be free of the Brussels elite even more though!
Maybe Anglia could walk away from the UK :ok:
In some ways this is like the break up of the USSR, assuming that is the Scots do actually vote to leave!
If I was Scottish I would certainly be voting to leave.
But at the end of the day my gut feeling is they will not vote to leave.

[Lima Juliet]

Hold the bus LJ! Don't tar us all with the SNP brush!

Duncs

Duncs

I have a very healthy regard for Scotland with a Scottish Brother-in-Law and my mother being a Brown from Fife (and not related to the monocular idiot either :E).

I'm just fed up with all the Braveheart and Saltire b0ll0cks coming out of Scotland for the past 20 years - it just encourages the other idiots about St George's, Welsh Dragons (and a next to useless language unless you live there or a small part of Patagonia) and bloomin' made up nationalism like St Piran's flags of Cornwall. The UK is small enough as it is without losing Scotland. But I think "call me Dave (with a Scottish surname!)" is right to call the SNP's bluff - either put up or F off. The Scottish Parliament, Welsh and Northern Ireland Assemblies are all costing us dearly - someone has to pay for these extra politicians and their grandiouse meeting buildings and it's all of us in the UK! Why can't we go back to Westminster running the UK?

All the apparent bribing of the Scottish populace going on by the SNP is shameful. My Brother-in-Law, as a successful Scottish businessman (and Freeman of London), knows that a SNP victory will clobber his business as he gets to pay even more taxes to pay for all of the SNP's promises. So much so, that he is already drawing a contingency plan together to sell up, leave his beloved Scotland and retire early - he is not alone.

Our combined country's great visionaries and forefathers of the United Kingdom of Great Britain must be turning in their graves at what we have become as a divided nation (I K Brunel, A G Bell, J L Baird, A Flemming, Rolls and Royce, A Turing, T Caxton, R Watson Watt, to name but a few). Instead some choose to listen to the unwise like Salmond, Connery, Ferguson, etc...

Wake up Great Britain before it's too late...

...right, back to my Speckled Hen before the Pub shuts...:ok:

LJ

[melmothtw]

and a next to useless language unless you live there


You could say the same about most languages. What use is Norwegian to those who don't live in Norway, or Thai to those not living in Thailand?

[Roland Pulfrew]

melmothtw
Quote:
What use is Norwegian to those who don't live in Norway, or Thai to those not living in Thailand?

Well strangely enough Norwegian is the first language in Norway, and Thai is the first language in Thailand. Welsh (and Gaelic in Scotland) is not the first language and is spoken by a minority of the population. The cost of replacing all of the road signs, changing them from English to English and [insert dead language here], is a real and unnecessary expense at a time of alleged austerity.

[melmothtw]

Well strangely enough Norwegian is the first language in Norway, and Thai is the first language in Thailand. Welsh (and Gaelic in Scotland) is not the first language and is spoken by a minority of the population.


In the part of Wales I grew up in it was the first language of more than 80% of the population.


The cost of replacing all of the road signs, changing them from English to English and [insert dead language here], is a real and unnecessary expense at a time of alleged austerity.


The roadsigns in Wales haven't had to be replaced since they were made bilingual in the 1960s.

[Heathrow Harry]

"If the trident force have to leave scotland, it will surely cost a fortune, a fortune we (the uk, inc scotland) can ill afford at the moment"

Indeed - I suspect this may be a final nail in the grave of the SSBN fleet - cost of the move (Plymouth I guess) and then re-equipping will be horrendous

We could of course opt to operate them out of USN facilities in the USA which would accord witeh realities of "our" deterrent

[Heathrow Harry]

What happens if Scotland does leave to Scots in the UK armed Forces

presumably if they elect to stay then they are covered buy their current terms of enlistment/commissions etc but if they want to join the Tartan Army they will have to resign and swear an oath of allegiance to wee 'eck and his mates?

[baffman]

What happens if Scotland does leave to Scots in the UK armed Forces

presumably if they elect to stay then they are covered buy their current terms of enlistment/commissions etc but if they want to join the Tartan Army they will have to resign and swear an oath of allegiance to wee 'eck and his mates? I would not expect any official statement in advance of a pro-independence vote, were that to happen, however the situation should be very little different from the many Commonwealth or Irish citizens already serving in HM Forces.

[Heathrow Harry]

but can we trust them?

perhaps a full MI5 investigation to see if they if they fail the Tebbit test,drink Irn-Bru, Tennant's and Bells whisky, eat porridge, take the Sunday Post or wear the skirt??

[OutlawPete]

Heathrow Harry
You missed out haggis, Buckfast Tonic Wine and deep fried Mars bars!

Something that always amazes me about the "skirt" (as you put it).....why do your English women go nuts for it so much? Its more evident the further south you go too. The last time I wore highland dress to a mess do south of the border, a fellow jock and myself were inundated with requests from the ladies. Its fair to say it annoyed some of the male members of the indigenous population!

[dctyke]

LJ: quote
So much so, that he is already drawing a contingency plan together to sell up, leave his beloved Scotland and retire early - he is not alone.


Thats if your brother-in-law (and the others) successfully get a visa ;)

[Sevarg]

Let us say Scotland votes for independence. Then all Scots, those born there not the 'Ron Stewart's', will require a Scottish passport and become full blooded Scots. A lot of these people live out with Scotland and have no vote. Is this democratic, no just another fiddle of the system.
If 'Our Dave' was half the man he thinks he is he would have held out for expat Scots, in or out of the forces, to have a vote. Once again we are sold down the river.

[melmothtw]

If 'Our Dave' was half the man he thinks he is he would have held out for expat Scots, in or out of the forces, to have a vote. Once again we are sold down the river.
I'm guessing that of the two, it would be Salmond who would be most in favour of giving Scottish ex-pats the vote. During the Montenegran independence vote a couple of years back, the regional government actually laid on flights to get ex-pats back to vote knowing it would swing the vote favour of a 'yes', and it did.

[Sevarg]

Don't forget that most of the 'expats' live in England.

[The Stimulator]

I can tell you, having asked the MSP for the constituency that our house is in, that Alex Salmond doesn't want us expats to be allowed to vote. You'll get one if you are a non-Scot who happens to be living in Scotland, but not if you are a Scot living abroad.

[Fareastdriver]

An English person with two children of 15 and sixteen could get a job in Scotland next year. He would then be in time to be put on the voter's role; as would his now 16 and 17 year old children. They, knowing that they won't be in the country in a couple of years because their dad is going to move on, couldn't care how or why they vote.

[JFZ90]

Indeed - I suspect this may be a final nail in the grave of the SSBN fleet - cost of the move (Plymouth I guess) and then re-equipping will be horrendous

Quite, and I dont see how using Kings Bay more helps with getting the pointy things from AWE fitted to the missiles. A solvable problem but not without more substantial cost.

Surely we should all be concerned with absolutely minimising the cost of the deterrent, 'necessary' evil that it may be.

Salmond clearly couldn't give a toss about such matters.

[Canadian Break]

Dear Mr Salmond

If you really want an independent Scotland can I cordially suggest that you let the English vote in your referendum?
Lov and Kisses
CB:ok:

[baffman]

I can tell you, having asked the MSP for the constituency that our house is in, that Alex Salmond doesn't want us expats to be allowed to vote. You'll get one if you are a non-Scot who happens to be living in Scotland, but not if you are a Scot living abroad. Leaving aside the 16/17 yo issue, the choice was between the UK parliamentary franchise and the Scottish parliamentary/local government franchise. Both the UK Government and the Edinburgh administration supported the latter.

At least it excludes Sir Sean Connery!

[dctyke]

If they get it can we please stop putting clocks back an hour for winter!

I wonder what scottish car number plates and tax discs will look like? (setting up things like this will cost em all their oil money - unless the Shetlands decide to go their own way and keep it for themselves :-)

[baffman]

An English person with two children of 15 and sixteen could get a job in Scotland next year. He would then be in time to be put on the voter's role; as would his now 16 and 17 year old children. They, knowing that they won't be in the country in a couple of years because their dad is going to move on, couldn't care how or why they vote. By the same token, a Scottish person with two children of 15 and sixteen could get a job in England next year. Assuming he is not a service voter, if they change their permanent residence none of them will be able to vote in the Scottish referendum. That sort of thing is inevitable.

Going back to your first family, if they couldn't care how or why they vote, I suspect they won't vote.

[WarmandDry]

If Spain vetos the option of Scotland joining the EU, as a defence against Catalan independence, what will the England / Scotland border look like?

[althenick]

Spain will veto Scotland membership of the EU
If Spain vetos the option of Scotland joining the EU, as a defence against Catalan independence, what will the England / Scotland border look like?

If they can also get the rest of europe to veto Scottish membership i'll have to have a serious think about voting yes...

... Of course by that time i'll have my bags packed, house and contents sold and have all of my hard-earned safely in an offshore account :E

[Heathrow Harry]

"If Spain vetos the option of Scotland joining the EU, as a defence against Catalan independence, what will the England / Scotland border look like?"

Exactly as it does now - mots of it is some of the bleakest countryside in the nation

No doubt the good people of Carlisle/Gretna/Berwick & Coldstream will find a way to make some cash on price differences once the Scots go their own way

[SWBKCB]

No doubt the good people of Carlisle/Gretna/Berwick & Coldstream will find a way to make some cash on price differences once the Scots go their own way

Why wait?

BBC News - Northumberland council in 'booze bus promotion' row (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19343543)

[baffman]

NATO membership of an independent Scotland proving controversial.

BBC News - MSPs John Finnie and Jean Urquhart quit SNP over Nato policy (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20041667)

[Courtney Mil]

Wonderful. NATO won't let a new bunch of CND fanatics in and Europe will make them apply from scratch (how many years could that take?). So Scottish independence would put them right out in the cold, all alone. No right to cross anyone's borders, no defence and none of the usual functions of government. Others have mentioned some, but imagine that they will have to set up:

Passport Office.
Post Office.
Vehicle Licencing Office.
Excise and Revenue Office.
A fully separate Police Force (nearly there on that one).
Health Service.
Ministry of Defence.
Numerous other ministries.
Scottish Rail (not ScotRail).
Television and Radio (not funded by another country).
Regulators for all the above.
Thousands of NGOs.
Border Agency.
Heather Infarction Council.
Fisheries and Agi.
Scottish Telecomm (BT will want all their copper wire back to replace the stuff that keeps getting nicked).
Scottish Aviation Authority.
A mapping agency (OS don't work for free).
Etc.

A lot of stuff will require validating/licencing/certifying:
Universities that no longer come under UK regulation.
Schools, curricula, etc.
Drug licencing.
Driver licencing (although I suspect an old UK one will become acceptable).
Vehicle Safety.
Financial Services.
H&S (bless)
Chemical and Radiological Licencing.
Commercial prcatices.
Ect.

Anyway, you get the idea. They have quite a lot, but there is much more to establish and then fund forever. Even if they get their 18 jets and 26 helos, good luck running them and setting up the rest of the country. Really.

[CoffmanStarter]

Nah ... not going to happen ... Salmond is barking mad ... simples :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

You may be right, Coff. But if they don't go, can we expect a new wave of fanatical Scottish fundamentalists starting a jihad to throw of the imperialist yoke of English oppression?

[CoffmanStarter]

Should be easy to spot such individuals ... wode is blue isn't it :}

IF it goes ahead ... Day 1 ... Air Exclusion Zone north of the 54th parallel ... with complementary CAPs.

Far simpler to put the bu99er on trial for Treason :E

[Ronald Reagan]

I can understand the Scots being really concerned on both sides of the argument, but why do we English get so emotive over this? If the Scots wish to leave the UK then let them, if they do why would we wish to make life hard for them afterwards?! Its the same with Northern Ireland, if a majority there ever vote to leave the UK whats the issue!?
If I was Scottish I would probably vote to leave the UK but can say the same about the EU. At the end of the day the majority of people in the UK are English, if all the other bits of the UK were to drop away then it won't exactly be the end of the world. The British Empire is gone, maybe in the coming years there will not be a Britain anymore! Nothing lasts forever ie British Empire, Roman Empire, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Prussia, South Vietnam, Rhodesia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, all gone.

[CoffmanStarter]

RR ...

I have no issue with the argument you put forward ... that's your view.

It's just that I, and countless others (including many Scottish friends), simply believe in the collective power/good of a United Kingdom which benefits all ... and not the rantings of some deranged idiot bent on pushing his own political career/agenda no matter the consequencies when he's finally consigned to history.

[Courtney Mil]

I agree, Coff.

[Evanelpus]

Alex Salmon is a complete fruit loop.

I say give 'em what they want, they will be another Greece within 5 years

[archiedawe]

Would the Scottish take pilots already serving in the RAF or would they have to start a new training program for aircrew and pilots before they started flying anything?

[Courtney Mil]

Er, flying what? The 18/26 idea doesn't even start to make a credible force. What trainers? What logs? What maintenance? What ATC? etc, etc, etc.

[archiedawe]

Fair enough, they would be pretty much useless for a number of years

[Courtney Mil]

Unless they want to put billions, many billions into building an entire air force, it's probably a non-starter. IMHO.

Far better to leave the UK and say that the remaining nations can provide their defence for free. Or maybe we'd even have to pay rent on the bases to go and do it!

[archiedawe]

yeah could selling the 18/26 vehicles be an option for them or would they not get very far with that?

[CoffmanStarter]

Before doing all this ... first off Salmond better get his cheque book out and pay off the debt the UK Goverment stumped up to save his mate's bank ... that's Goodwin and RBS ... along with an equitable share of the total current UK National Debt ... not a lot of change to do much else after that I'll wager. Oh ... he doesn't have a Central Bank to do any of this ... maybe he could take out a personal loan :}

[Fareastdriver]

Courtney Mil wrote

Others have mentioned some, but imagine that they will have to set up:
Passport Office.
Post Office.
All the way down to;-

Financial Services.
H&S (bless)
Chemical and Radiological Licencing.
Commercial prcatices.
Ect.

Add onto that.

Scottish Embassies. (the Brits might rent out a room but they will make Salmon cough up for it.)
EU membership, (if they get in then they will be a contributor because Salmon has told the world how rich Scotland is.)
United Nations (another gravy train to fund.)

I am retired and I like living in Aberdeen, Scotland. Shopping is easy, a bus (free) every ten minutes. A day in Edinburgh? Easy, book a seat on the coach (50p each way) and off you go. A weekend in Ullapool, on the west coast, same again, no problem. You can go anywhere in Scotland on an intercity coach or town bus and
IT'S ALL FREE.
Visiting the doctor and getting a prescription. I'm over 65 so its free. My son and daughter are in there forties, its all free. For everybody in Scotland
IT'S ALL FREE.
My grandchildren could go to school, get their highers and think about going to a Scottish university. Money is not a problem.
IT'S ALL FREE.
When I get old and doddery I will need looking after a bit. Not a problem, I will get help from carers and
IT'S ALL FREE.

I do not want Scotland to become independent. With all the bills that CM has listed plus my contribution how are they going to afford to continue to hand out my freebees. I have got used to just presenting a plastic card or scribbling a signature and I don't want it to stop. Long live the Union so that Westminster picks up the tab.

[El Grifo]

and not the rantings of some deranged idiot

That kind of rhetoric is never going to have you win an argument.

It simply illustrates fear of change !

[Roland Pulfrew]

Going by CM's list of government departments that Scotland will have to set up, the Scots can at least look forward to 100% employment rates. Sadly they will all be paid for by the Scottish Exchequer, so does that mean a 100% tax rate? :E

[CoffmanStarter]

Fareastdriver, Roland P ...

Forget for a moment the set-up and associated on-going running costs of all the "comforts" Courtney Mil mentions ... let's just put, for starters, an estimate on an "equitable" share of the current UK National Debt for Mr Salmond.

Using the following data here ...

UK National Debt Clock (http://www.debtbombshell.com/)

On a MW&C basis with a Scottish population of 5,254,800 (2011) at circa £17,000 Debt per Head ... I make that (at least) £89,331,600,000 due by a so called "free" Scotland to the Crown.

100% Tax Rate ... I should coco ... and the rest :E

[Ronald Reagan]

Could they not argue that the debt is that of the UK government, as no longer part of the UK its not their debt. How did it work with the end of the USSR? For example were former Soviet republics liable for a share of the debt of the USSR or was that left for Moscow?

[CoffmanStarter]

RR ...

Using that logic ... I'll start campaigning for a "free" new Country called East Sussex :ok:

[JFZ90]

'Join the queue' for EU membership, Spain tells Alex Salmond | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/24/scotland-eu-membership-spain)

Looks like Team Salmond don't have a clue what they're doing.

Seeking to block a request to see legal advice they implied they had but turns out they didn't. How can anyone trust them with anything?

[Roadster280]

If they get it can we please stop putting clocks back an hour for winter!


They don't. They go forward for summer. To stay on the summer setting all year round would be to change time zones. A bit odd for for the place that time zones are referenced from.

[OutlawPete]

Fareastdriver is correct, Scotland is a damn fine place to live as it is.

However it has to be said that the funding for all the nice things he mentioned is no different to that received by other parts of the UK. Its just that Scotland chooses to spend the money on things that matter most to people. Health, education etc.

Anyway, all this talk of independence...no one I know wants it! My theory is it was a mere rouse to wind up the English. Looks like it worked too.

[salad-dodger]

'Join the queue' for EU membership, Spain tells Alex Salmond | Politics | The Guardian
No surprise there really, particularly as Scotland is likely to have a parasitic relationship to the EU.

S-D

[El Grifo]

No surprise there really, particularly as Scotland is likely to have a parasitic relationship to the EU

Interesting statement. I am interested. Can you point to any sources to back up what you say ?

[Navaleye]

Its a shame we don't do polls on this forum because the outcome of this one would be interesting and amusing. Imagine on the same day as Scotland holds its referendum on separation, a similar referendum was held in the rest of the UK with the question.

"Do you support the immediate ejection of Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom in all respects."

I know how I would vote. They would be bankrupt in six months and we wouldn't have to give them a penny. It would also be end of the Labour Party as without Scotland they are finished in Westminster. Come Scotland - Vote Independence!

[Ronald Reagan]

Part of me wants to see Scotland leave the UK as I feel its probably best for Scotland, a truely free and independant Scotland etc. But for more selfish reasons the idea of seeing it far harder/almost impossible for Labour to get elected into government here sounds VERY appealing indeed:D
Scottish independance might be worth it simply for that reason alone.

[CoffmanStarter]

The lunacy continues ...

Plans envisage Scottish independence from March 2016 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21331302)

Scotland's Future (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00413757.pdf)

No mention of currency, how pensions/debt will be handled/allocated let alone defence.

Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie MSP sums it up about right "The SNP have hopelessly underestimated the scale and complexity of this. They would have to negotiate over 14,000 international treaties, a currency, the division of assets, membership of Nato and the host of international organisations".

BTW ... They want to keep the Monarchy ...

:ugh:

Coff.

[airpolice]

Coffman, try to see a bigger picture.

The requirement for 14,000 treaty agreements only applies if Scotland wants to be in all of them.

If Scotland (2016) Ltd decides not to be in NATO than there is no problem. Equally, a new Scotland would not be bound by any ECHR rules.

With no MEP representation, comes a reduction in the cost of MEPs.

If we keep our nose in our own (small) poke, and avoid expeditionary warfare, then 18 fast jets and 26 rotary might well be enough.

[Pontius Navigator]

Looking at the original title, with their 18 FJ they will need a pilot selection system or pay to use someone else's. The aircraft will be fine while they remain serviceable but will need support from BAE and a new contract. It just goes on and on. Before long the Scottish Air Force will be a rival to the Irish Air Corps.

[CoffmanStarter]

Airpolice ...

That's the trouble I am looking at the big picture old chap :ok:

It's just that I, and countless others (including many Scottish friends), simply believe in the collective power/good of a United Kingdom which benefits all ...

IF it goes ahead there will be tears in Scotland IMHO.

Coff.

[airpolice]

Coffman, there are already tears in Scotland.

Sitting tight is no guarantee that we'll get better, just that we'll be in the same boat as England.

[baffman]

Equally, a new Scotland would not be bound by any ECHR rules.

I don't believe the Yes campaign would agree with you on that.

Apart from anything else, it would invalidate their approach to EU membership. All EU member states have to be signed up to the ECHR.

[TURIN]

Part of me wants to see Scotland leave the UK as I feel its probably best for Scotland, a truely free and independant Scotland etc. But for more selfish reasons the idea of seeing it far harder/almost impossible for Labour to get elected into government here sounds VERY appealing indeed
Scottish independance might be worth it simply for that reason alone.


Really? Scotland represents less than 10% of the 650 constituents of the Commons.

Would it mean the Lib Dems getting a bigger vote in England? :eek:

[airpolice]

Baffman, we may decide not to join the EU.

In which case the requirements are not relevant.

From the YES Campaign website

Becoming independent is just the starting point. It will be the people who live in Scotland who will be in charge. That’s why being independent will mean a fairer and more successful Scotland. We’ll be able to take the right decisions for our future, based on our shared values and priorities and using our wealth of resources and talent.

An independent Scotland will remain an integral part of the European Union and will not have to re-apply for EU membership from the outside.

There seems to be some legal doubt as to the accuracy of that. We may however, decide to leave. That's the benefit of being able to make decisions, about Scotland, in Scotland.

[Kluseau]

Really? Scotland represents less than 10% of the 650 constituents of the Commons.

Would it mean the Lib Dems getting a bigger vote in England? :eek:

Whatever else Scots have done in recent decades, voting Conservative in a Westminster election has not been considered much of an option. As a result, there were no Conservative MPs at all returned from Scottish Westminster consituencies in 1997, and only one in the 2001, 2005 and 2010 general elections.

There's a school of thought that alienating enough Scots to produce a "yes" vote in an independence referendum in 2014 is Cameron's best, maybe only, chance of winning the (presumably) 2015 Westminster general election. Take Scottish constituencies and MPs out of the equation, and his chances must improve.

This might at least provide a rational explanation for the omnishambles that is Westminster government right now. Whatever the actual outcome in the independence referendum next year, I'm pretty sure that more Scots will have been induced to vote "yes" by Cameron than by Salmond, as many see independence as the best way of getting shot of him and the risk of any more like him.

[SPIT]

I am wondering WHO WILL CREW or FLY THEM ??? :confused:::confused::

[Squadronbrat]

Apart from anything else, it would invalidate their approach to EU membership. All EU member states have to be signed up to the ECHR.

The best thing they could do is not join the EU. Just wait for the British EU referendum!

[Squadronbrat]

I am wondering WHO WILL CREW or FLY THEM ???

I'm sure there are more than a few Scots already driving fast jets that would be happy to serve the 'homeland'. What would be interesting is would they have to re-sign a commission?

[alwayslookingup]

"I am wondering WHO WILL CREW or FLY THEM ???"

Not sure if Ewan MacGregor's brother's still flying. Maybe RoyMac could be coaxed out of an honourable retirement.

[Heathrow Harry]

I see Wee 'Eck is planning his Independence Day already.................

[Jimlad1]

Its a major issue trying to work out a split of the military - all very well talking equipment, but you need to work out how to man and sustain it too.
Saw a summary of some of the issues here which sums up the challenge to my mind - http://www.thinpinstripedline.********.co.uk/2012/01/bagpipes-bayonets-bluster-and-bugger.html

[alwayslookingup]

Norway seems to manage, and Sweden, and Finland, and Denmark....

[OutlawPete]

Very true. Countries smaller than Scotland manage just fine.

I have always thought that a vote for SNP would conflict with my own views particularly on defence. However, it has to be said that successive Westminster governments have done little except erode and deconsruct the armed forces to the state they are in now.

One may point out how bad things will be with independence. I don't think that arguement holds out now. How much worse can they get?

[cokecan]

Outlaw Pete,

Ireland?

Ireland has no fast jets, a pair of fishery protection C-235's, half a dozen civvy executive helicopters painted green, and a Bde sized Army that when it goes overseas, takes no Artillery or helicopter support, and relies on its 'partners' to do all its lift, logistics and fires.

if i asked you which country the fat toad constantly name checks in in his ode to 'how to be a small, independant country', how many guesses would you need?

[airpolice]

Coke can,

Ireland has no fast jets, a pair of fishery protection C-235's, half a dozen civvy executive helicopters painted green

Yet the sky has not fallen in..... why is that?

What is this great requirement for a big air force that seems to apply to Scotland (2016) Ltd but not to the Republic?

[althenick]

What is this great requirement for a big air force that seems to apply to Scotland (2016) Ltd but not to the Republic?
There isn't a requirement for a big air force but there is a requirement for fast jets. Mainly to provide QRA in Scotlands Air space on the north / east side of the country. Since Irelands Airspace borders onto UK Airspace then why have Expensive fast jets to Defend what is already being defended by someone else. It would take a carrier-capable nation to fly-over Irish Airspace with impunity.

Same with MPA - Scotland requires MPA to protect its Maritime Area's - In Ireland again - why bother

[cokecan]

Air Police (good name, appropriate for this...)

the sky fell in when, because they've no air policing (see what i did there!) capability, they had to ask the big, dirty neighbour next door to do it for them with his unneccesary fast jets.

the sky fell in when, having sent an infantry battalion - sans Artilley and helicopter support - to a dusty ****hole on a peacekeeping mission, they had to ask the French to provide air cover, and sub-contract commercial helicopter mobility. it then turned out the helicopters involved weren't certified for passengers...

thats just in the last 10 years.

[airpolice]

Yeah, why bother?

The Irish don't and it's working out ok for them.

[airpolice]

Coke, what if they decided not to do any more peacekeeping, would that not solve that particular problem?

They could of course just call up the the bigger players and say "If you want us in the game, then you need to provide transport, otherwise we'll stay at home and watch it on CNN".

If England wants a northern QRA they can do it from Leeming. Who exactly are they defending from? The NATO partners to the East?

Since the Irish are not defending the western approaches, why should Scotland? England can do that as well.

[Evalu8ter]

Good point...why would an independant Scotland need QRA and FJ? I think NZ is a far better model than Ireland; significant maritime interests and a small, focussed, land capability to put at the disposal of UN endorsed missions. If Salmond and co run around the world telling everyone how nice they are then a mad terrorist isn't going to want to fly an airliner into Holyrood.....

There would be a certain irony in an accommodation being reached where the RAF provide Air Defence of the Scottish FIR (against what, who knows...) and the RSAF (they want to keep the Queen, bless 'em) provides MPA & SAR coverage. If the SNP come up with something as sensible as this, rather than an instinctive 'we want a share of it all' then it has some merit. A small, deployable,force of RW a la the RNZAF would be appropriate as the Scots have some fine fighting troops that would be an asset on any PSO.

I know it's hard to believe, but not every country needs a FJ force and the enormous expense that goes with it - though I've no doubt Salmond's ego quite likes the thought of a number of Typhoons with the saltire on (and, of course, a suitably cosseting 'Tartan Force One' to swank around in.)

I get the impression that the whole Independance thing is a massive fluffing to the ego of the SNP elite.....

[Courtney Mil]

Err, QRA(I) doesn't just defend against external intruders. Mind you, there has been a lot of Russian traffic in recent years. We would also like to operate other assets in the northern part of the UKADR.

The answer may be, we'll keep the jets and you give us free use of the airspace. That way they get their air defence. They might even like to contribute to the cost of providing it to ensure their safety.

They'd need a hell of a lot more assets than those mentioned here to run QRA anyway.

[rab-k]

Most of Ivan's snooping these days seems to coincide with 'Joint Warrior'.

Typhoons are probably too pricey for any future SDF. JAS39 would be a more cost effective platform. A couple of dozen of these split between Lossie and/or Prestwick/Leuchars respectively would tick more boxes than half that number of Tiffys.

Out of interest, what do the Norwegians do for AAR capability if they're operating off the North Cape for extended periods?

[Hummingfrog]

Scotland probably doesn't need a large air force, army or navy but the trouble is the SNP have "promised" that all the present bases will be kept open to try and maintain the mirage that come independence nothing will change - those that have jobs will keep them and those on benefits won't be limited to the measly 1% increase that the horrible UK government is imposing - under independence you'll get a bigger rise than that:confused:.

But and it is a big but who is going to pay for this largesse - oil won't and anyway come 50yrs from now that will be a faint memory so you can't base independence on a diminishing finite resource:ugh:

Fortunately the majority of Scots aren't stupid and see through the lies ( Salmond " we have legal advice about Europe" on no he hasn't) and rhetoric of the SNP and the polls remain pretty consistent at only 30% or less for independence.

HF

[M609]

Out of interest, what do the Norwegians do for AAR capability if they're operating off the North Cape for extended periods?

No AAR. More than the first QRA flight might appear before the first one has to head for nearest MIL divert though. :)
Banak/ENNA (just south of the cape) has been known to hot pit a F-16 or two over the years.

However, our "friends" to the east tend to hug the coast fairly close.

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/2012/7/20/russerfly_834.jpg

[Easy Street]

I think NZ is a far better model than Ireland

Hmmm.... NZ is out of pratical range of aircraft based anywhere other than Oz or on board a carrier. Scotland is very definitely in range of aircraft based in Russia, who given free rein would undoubtedly come and snoop on communications, take pictures of stuff, and generally take the p1ss. I wouldn't call that a reasonable basis for comparison.

[rab-k]

bases will be kept open

Where the 'air wing' is concerned, shouldn't that read 'base', as in singular, as in what the current UK Govt. intends? Pretty easy commitment to make by the SNP, given what assets will actually be in place in Scotland come 2016, especially now that the Army's plans for Kirknewton have also been kicked into touch. 'Fortress Scotland' will have been consigned to the history books by 2016, irrespective of the referendum's outcome in 2014.

Be wary of using the term "majority", the most recent poll I saw showed 48% in favour of the status quo. What does that make the other 52?

[Hummingfrog]

Rab-k

Ah yes the "yes campaign" spin - it doesn't matter how many people say don't know they will always be converted in the end:confused:

Be wary of using the term "majority", the most recent poll I saw showed 48% in favour of the status quo. What does that make the other 52?

the other 52% is made up of approx 24-30% yes and the rest don't knows - so it only needs 3% of the don't knows to say NO and sanity will prevail:D

HF