TCAS - Dubai Incident

[pfvspnf]

Your input on the April 22nd incident?

GCAA report attached :

http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication/admin/iradmin/Lists/Incidents%20Investigation%20Reports/Attachments/27/2012-Final%20Preliminary%20Investigation%20Report%20A6ABS%20and%2 0A6FDK%20TCAS%20RA%20Serious%20Incident%20rev%201.pdf

[DESDI OR BUST]

What kind of input? Facts are there for all to see. Full report will take months. As with all investigations, speculation is pointless without knowing everything or having access to the information.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I agree re no second guessing the final report, but the prelim gives a reasonable insight into a possible cause.....

But as an aside I would like to ask in the report the co pilots on both aircraft are refered to as CADETS. In the report, there is no reference to a first or second officer or trainer also on the flight deck.

glf

[ferris]

This is one of those weird ones where TCAS does the opposite of what you would expect ie. it tells the guy who is climbing to climb harder, and the guy who is level to descend. How that is ever going to provide (maintain) vertical separation, I don't know. I do understand that the algorithm has determined that this course of action will result in the minimum amount of time where there is no vertical, but it's not going to help much if you collect the other guy on the way there- especially if after the RA you resume your cleared climb and climb back thru the other guy (whose clearance was to maintain 5000' before the TCAS climb)!

Still- better to have it than not!

[TangoUniform]

Looking at the title of the thread, thought it might be about another TCAS we all know. :ok:

[DESDI OR BUST]

Horrible to watch to be honest.

Gulfstream.....sometimes these details are purposely left out of initial report until proper license details are established. Every State is different in how they approach a report. Most States make no mention until final...but thats how it is!

It will be an interesting read nevertheless as I wonder what the the angle of convergence of the two aircraft had on the initiation of the TCAS.

[Silky]

Just wondering how someone gets a license with no flying hours....

A320 FO
Total all flying hours 279.63
Total flying hours on A320 279.63...

wonder did he get his license in India?? :E

[FL123]

@silky

Had the same doubt earlier. Guess that is printed wrong!!!

[pfvspnf]

I wonder who was Pilot Flying (Cadet or Commander?),

with 270 hours on type the MPL cadet must have practiced TCAS in the sim several times but it is quite a maneuver in real life which seems to have been handled well by both crews.

[Mr Good Cat]

Just wondering how someone gets a license with no flying hours....

A320 FO
Total all flying hours 279.63
Total flying hours on A320 279.63...

wonder did he get his license in India??


What's the issue?

In the UK this is the norm. I was a cadet with what is now one of Europe's biggest carriers and started on the 737 with less than 180 hours... It's about quality of training NOT a few thousand extra hours on Cessnas.

Whilst I don't pretend to be anything more than an average 777 skipper, starting out with low hours straight onto jets didn't seem to inhibit my progress in any way... In fact arguably working short-haul on a 737 / 320 flying many sectors each day is the probably the best grounding you could get before moving on to the bigger stuff, no?

[donpizmeov]

I think you will find that with a MPL all the training is conducted on the type you are going to fly. Hence total time and time on type will be the same.

The Don

[pfvspnf]

There is still a core flying phase on piston aircraft. Approximately 70 hours.

[de facto]

but it is quite a dynamic maneuver in real life which seems to have been handled well by both crews.


TCASRA , a quite dynamic maneuver? Stop smoking grass man:rolleyes:

[Flyer1015]

In the UK this is the norm. I was a cadet with what is now one of Europe's biggest carriers and started on the 737 with less than 180 hours... It's about quality of training NOT a few thousand extra hours on Cessnas.

Not a whole lot of experience to draw from with only 180 hrs! Low time pilots just add to another possible link (increased likelihood) in the accident chain.

[ironbutt57]

Flyer,depends largely on their training background

[Dropp the Pilot]

If your TCAS RA is a 'dynamic maneuver' you are doing it wrong.

RTFM

[Flyer1015]

Flyer,depends largely on their training background
Meh, 180 hours is still 180 hours. You've only seen a real life "oh sh**" moment so many times with 180 hours. Training can be great and all, but nothing replaces a well of experience that comes with more flying time.

[Silky]

@Mr Good Cat, you make my point exactly!! You had a lic then a 737!! So get over yourself! Never commented on anything except hours!

Dontpiz, tks for the update, obviously times have changed since I was a cadet when you required a cpl multi ir with a frozen ATPL then the hf exams then mcc then jar etc!! I think both fly Dubai and EK train their cadets on light aircraft first then mcc courses?!? Maybe there is something in their madness!
:cool:

[Hansol]

Guys I think you are missing the issue here. As far as I can see both crews and the systems worked correctly. The ATC shift change didn't !!

[ruserious]

I am guessing here but wonder if the standard too much ATC verbosity (as mandated by GCAA) had a contributing factor

[emiratesson]

What about ATC's mistake in assigning both altitudes and headings for both flights? Why are we talking about cadets flying here? Whether it was 279 hours or 10000. Both are fully vulnerable to making mistakes, deadly ones too!

[bettigio]

FlyDubai minimum requirements are 1500hrs total time.
How come the F/O cadet had only 470????????
I know people rejected with only 1300hrs...
Anyway, cadet or not, they did follow correctly the resolution advisory.