Why Do It?

[why panic]

I have discussed this with friends and colleagues over the years and never really heard a good answer.

Why do people spend vast amounts of money on flying training when there is such a big pool of people who have gone before and been unable to find a flying job?

Add to this, nobody can really know what life is like as an airline pilot, until you have done it for a few years. So it all seems like a very expensive leap of faith.

[zondaracer]

Because flying sure does look cool and everyone thinks that somehow they will beat the odds. :)

[why panic]

Flying definitely is cool, but spending a small fortune with nothing to show for it, isn't.

[Gyro Drift]

When you know that it's the only career you want then a lot of people will go for it regardless of risk.
I'm one of the many who embarked on flight training and indeed spent a vast amount of money. I secured a jet job within 8 weeks of finishing the training so was one of the lucky ones. But absolutely, you cannot know what life is like as a pilot until you have done it for a while.

The job itself is absolutely fantastic. Manually flying a 60+ ton jet down the ILS and then walking away from the aircraft realising what a machine you have just flown. Can't beat it. No doubt there will be people on here in no time commenting on how the job isn't as fantastic as I'm making out, but that's just me, personally, I love going to work.

However, the company that you fly for can often bring a downer on the job itself. Less and less flying hours each month, management that hang up the phone on you before you have chance to say bye, and continually declining terms and conditions. But why do people still come into this industry? Because it's all they've every wanted to do. Myself included.

It's a downward spiral though. With each wave of new guys that join, the contracts get worse. Something needs to be done but that's another thread altogether!

[Stick35]

Why doing it? Because everybody thinks that in some way they have the gods with them and beat the market situation.

[jhr187]

You could say the same for any job - you don't know what it's like until you've tried it for a while! People also pay thousands and thousands of pounds to train as doctors or lawyers, or engineers or teachers. Why not go ask them why they wanted to do it without having tried it first?

It maybe is an expensive leap of faith, but that's each prospective newbie's decision to make. What doesn't help is the old-timers yacking on and on about how 'it never happened like this before'. Times have changed - maybe just because you can't see the appeal doesn't mean that others don't, and if there's only really a limited path into the job nowadays, people will still want to do it.

Someone's got to keep the company going to pay all the airline pensions after all...

[Dan the weegie]

Thousands of people spending life changing sums of money on the hope of a job is definitely not the sole domain of the airline pilot.
Students fork out not far off what it costs to get a CPL/IR over 3 or 4 years to get BA/MA degrees with not only no prospect of a job in their field but also no intention of getting a job once they have the piece of paper.
That said, those who pay for a rating with no prospect of a job are taking it a bit too far but I get why they do.

I do it because I don't want to be anywhere else than in the piss smelling old crate I fly in :). obviously, a non piss smelling new crate would be lovely too. :D

[AlexDeltaCharlie]

Students fork out not far off what it costs to get a CPL/IR over 3 or 4 years to get BA/MA degrees

Not exactly- students take out an unsecured loan which doesn't have to be paid back unless they're earning >£21,000 per year. Monthly repayments of between £30 (based on a £25,000 salary) and £292.50 (based on a £60,000 salary). The idea that tuition fees are expensive and unaffordable is a myth, university is still a bit of a bargain, especially with the maintenance loans and all manner of available grants and bursaries. In the UK at least.

I had the flying dream, and I've enjoyed my PPL training immensely, but nowadays I suspect that if I ever find myself with £40k in disposable income in the future I'll have bought a share in a Chipmunk and an Austin Healey 3000 long before considering a CPL/IR and a shot at a flying career. A fun job no doubt but for me personally not currently worth it owing to the preposterous cost of entering the jobs market, the immense competition and the apparent continuing industry race to the bottom.

I suspect wannabes will still throw themselves headlong into all this silliness, because from personal experience it's so easy to catch and transmit Epaulattes Syndrome and be blinded from reality by dreams of big sunglasses and telling everyone you're an airline pilot. ES also creates an inescapable underlying feeling of 'I'll be one of the lucky ones'. I should know, I suffered from it. 17 year old males are particularly at risk from catching it, and that's my take on why glossy brochures and flashy websites work so well for big FTOs.

Just my 0.02 as a self-confessed wasgonnabe.

[jhr187]

I'm not sure what your student loan is/was, but my student loan repayments were much higher than £30 a month on a £25k salary. My loan was miniscule compared to others!

[Dan the weegie]

ADC, just because the repayments are easy it doesn't mean that the money isn't spent, just that it's not that unpleasant to pay back, but still there are people shelling out £40k in loans to do English Literature and end up in a career in HR. I spent about that for my fATPL and I have a job flying planes I get paid well enough and I have a nice lifestyle (for the moment).

The whole professional training industry is totally arse about tit, people are being trained for all kinds of professions because it's financially beneficial to the training company but at no point does it guarantee to deliver skilled people into real jobs and for all of this, they take out long term easy repay loans. It's still a loan and it's still spent money.

[why panic]

Thanks for the posts so far, which I've read with great interest. For some reason the moderator has deleted 3 of them … they didn’t seem that controversial.

I was wondering if I was lucky enough to be back at 20 years old, would I take this huge gamble in the present employment market.
After due consideration I would say that I probably wouldn't. I think the best bet would be to do your PPL, buy a share in something fun, maybe aerobatic, and enjoy your flying that way. You are then in a good place to go fATPL if the job market improves. Unless you can get your training bundled with a job offer, your chances as a 200 hrs fATPL are about zero. With an A320 type rating and no time on type, it’s about the same – Sadly.

Somebody made a key point (which has been deleted??) that the “blind optimists”, jumping in at any price, have encouraged these various pay to fly schemes.
Everybody hates these schemes, and they will disappear like dust in the wind the moment people stop using them. Or to put it another way, every pilot that uses one of these schemes makes it harder for the guy behind him, and perpetuates this abomination.

If you do decide to take the leap of faith, Good Luck, and I hope your dream doesn't turn to bitterness.

[a320renewal]

you will never make any money in this job. spend 130'000$ or more to finish unemployed or low paid job at 1000-2000$ a month.
and when you work you still have to pay to maintain your licenses, medical, sim, hotel, living expense....financially, it's not possible.

you can turn all the possibilities in your head : line training, regional airlines, flight instructors, sky divers, highway control, pipeline, banner towing, discovery flight, cargo,mercenary flight,top gun, hercules, space shuttle,etc

you will never cut back the money invested, instead you debt will go up and up!:ugh: and you may not even find a flying job at the end, and if you have one, for how long?

you will finish like an :mad:, bitter and upset, friends will call you to see what you get, and once they got the job, they will never contact you again...

most of my friends i had in aviation, are selfish, no girlfriend, divorced, and they only think about their little ego , and all turn around their flying bug.

[Stick35]

Spot on a320renewal!!!! :ok:

[FlyingStone]

and when you work you still have to pay to maintain your licenses, medical, sim, hotel, living expense....financially, it's not possible.

Not all companies are like that - just because some LCCs operate like this, it doesn't mean if you get a job, you will have to pay for everything by yourself.

ou will finish like an , bitter and upset, friends will call you to see what you get, and once they got the job, they will never contact you again...

While I don't get involved in other people's lives and I hate when somebody else is telling me how to live my own life - I would strongly suggest to think about the definition of friendship. It's something you should already know by now, especially if you are really 43 years old.


most of my friends i had in aviation, are selfish, no girlfriend, divorced, and they only think about their little ego , and all turn around their flying bug.

So what? I bet they are much more satisfied with themselves and their lives than you are apparently.

[Alycidon]

Pay €70,000 to get up at 0400, drive an old banger or a TT you can't afford 50km to work, have your bag rifled by failed plods, get dicked about by ramp operatives quoting health and safety tosh, ATC slots that are unacheivable, sector times that are far too short, management intimidation, foul mouthed base captains shouting at you across the crewroom, cabin crew who can't cope with the pressure and expect the police to come and sort out every passenger who complains. Junior captains so stressed out they can't think straight.....and you get to spend all your days off commuting.

That's what it's like.

Bargain.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Just my thoughts...

It's very sensible and understandable to suggest that somebody go do a PPL and fly on it for pleasure, whilst earning proper money from a proper job outside of aviation. This nearly happened to me, but I'm on stab two of the flying thing now.

It doesn't quite work like that, I fear. If your wish is to FLY, and have a lot of fun doing it, then sure, do a job you enjoy (probably in business, where most of the money you earn is yours, or working for somebody using a specialist skill), then fly at the weekends, grab a share in something fun, tour Europe in it, go on flying holidays in the U.S. and the bahamas, etc etc. Yeah, it would be a lot of fun!

But this misses the point of why many people want to become, specifically, pilots of civil jets. Some people (myself included) - are very much interested in flying, but just as interested in doing a job that keeps you out of your comfort zone and out of your local patch. It's not all about the flying, it's about the strange places you are flying TO, and the unique challenges each place represents.

It's about feeling you're doing a job you genuinely enjoy getting up to do. I'm sure this wears off, but it won't wear off until you have done it. To digress - most people know what it's like to drive along a road with hundreds of other commuters, all heading to one place of work or another. It makes early mornings a bit sh*tty, truth be told.

How about driving along a road with hundreds of other commuters, but YOU are on your way to take the aforementioned 60 tonnes of aircraft at 600 mph to somewhere rather spectacular (or not, depends where you're going I suppose!).

Of course this post will read a bit cringe worthy to the experienced pilot, but it is an attempt, written in lay terms, to get at the question asked by the OP, of why people put themselves through this.

And referencing to friends of mine 'doing the job', there is a big difference between taking an SEP or MEP across the Channel bashing into short strips, and being sat at the front of an airliner monitoring computers where you're away in Cuba, the Maldives etc for a week.

Point being, they're completely different, therefore will attract different kinds of people, although that is a totally separate argument and I don't want to be around when it's discussed!

[Artie Fufkin]

Pay €70,000 to get up at 0400, drive an old banger or a TT you can't afford 50km to work, have your bag rifled by failed plods, get dicked about by ramp operatives quoting health and safety tosh, ATC slots that are unacheivable, sector times that are far too short, management intimidation, foul mouthed base captains shouting at you across the crewroom, cabin crew who can't cope with the pressure and expect the police to come and sort out every passenger who complains. Junior captains so stressed out they can't think straight.....and you get to spend all your days off commuting.

That's what it's like.

Bargain.


Or...

Instrument rating plus 7 years, have a command on 60 tonne jet, training loans paid off and earning approx £90k.

Yesterday, flew to south of France. A routine flight with no weather /slots/ pax issues. Only an hour or so in the cruise, so had time for a coffee and a natter with the FO on the way down, just enough time for lunch, the paper and a sudoku on the way home.

Today, on standby, being paid to sit at home watching the cricket. It's beer o clock in an hour.

"Better than working for a living" has been said by many a pilot.

[Alycidon]

Sorry, not every day is that bad Artie, but then days like you describe are fewer and fewer and being paid for standby duties is just not an option for an awful lot of pilots these days.

I have seen FOs sworn at by the middle management and read intimidating memos peppered with expletives directed at pilots by foul mouthed, gobby, idiot managers. Now that may be fine for the air force, (although I don't agree with it) where you get trained for nowt while being paid, but is no way to be treated after such a huge investment of your own time and money.

I fear that the days of walking into a job where you get a decent contract are well and truly over for the vast majority.

The flying schools have no interest at all in painting a true picture to the potential cadets, just the "living the dream" claptrap.

(In the interest of balance and perspective).

[a320renewal]

ok, my turn...

being paid 15000$ every month to sit in a FBO(fixed based operator) eating pop corn, chatting with sexy ladies at the desk, then going to take a nap or play pool in the pilot lounge room, while my copilot is preparing my Gulfstream X,...in 30 minutes, I will be at FL 410, cruising M0.87, wooow! I will sleep at Mariot, jaccuzy, and next day I come back to drive my lamburgini to my 2 floors house in Beverly hills.

etc etc.

will you spend 100'000 euro for that? knowing your chance are less than 1 on 1000 for a job like that and you may lose all your cash!I did and I lost all my money!

and if the job looks so good, why should they pay you? it would be easier to ask pilots to pay a block of hours, oh, wait, this is called pay to fly? oh wait, this is why many pilots don't find job or become job less.

oh wait! this is going to be our future...I see you :ugh: in my crystal ball, asking yourself how to get a job with all these low time pilots who were thinking the same like you!

And what will you do when a guy show up in the office of your manager with pockets filled with $ ( only3 months after you have started to work).A guy same like you with big dreams, and offering 60'000 euro to fly 500h, then the boss ask you to leave unless you pay him more? today 60'000 euro, tomorrow 100'000euro...like this the company get a constant cash flow into the company and free pilot.
Tell me? what will you do?

[KAG]

You bought a A320 type rating instead of finding a job somewhere in the world.

Sorry to speak so directly to you a320renewal, but I have read some of your posts, and they all look alike.

I gave you some adices in the past and you didn't answer me.

A piece of advice: when you definitely know what is to spend money to get some useless training and type rating, you, at the opposite, have no clue about how to progress in this career, and have not clue about the pilot career anyway, so avoid to give advices on that matter.

I never hesitate to warn about this career, and I try to make some people realize the difficulties, but when I read you I can tell that sometimes your posts are total bullcr@p.

[leyahl]

A320renewal- what a muppet. You've just shown your hand mate- spent all your money and didn't get a job. You're bitter and obviously went into all this blindly in your 40s. Save us all the crap so that mature people can have a proper debate.
To add to the initial poster's question- I went into training with my eyes open, trained modular with dosh spare for a TR. I'm now in the process for getting a job with a Loco. Getting up at 3am to fly is 100x better than getting up at 7am to commute to an IT technician job/sales job/whatever even at half the salary in the short term. And that's why people like a320renewal are bitter and twisted knowing they'll be stuck in the rat race for ever.

[Artie Fufkin]

The point is, seeing as it clearly eludes you A320renewal, is that as Alycidon says "balance and perspective".

You might end up being raped by MOL, but you may also end up doing your time on a rubbish contract, before moving on to much better. A mate got DEP long haul BA last year - you simply wouldn't believe how cushy it sounds. There are good jobs out there, even during the worst recession in living memory.

You pay your money and take your chances. Just go in with your eyes open.

[redsnail]

Today was a crackin' day out. Nice little hop to the French coast with a 'plane full of delightful pax. Loved the flight and really looked forward to their holiday.
Then we ferried it back to the departure airport. No pax so could hand fly the approach. Did that culminating in a nice touch down for a landing. Happy days.
:D Just had my fill of sushi and sashimi at the local Japanese restaurant.
Tomorrow, 3 sectors which promise to be fun.

:ok:

[Nekro]

"He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life." - Mohammed Ali

[KAG]

As far as the risk is not your parent's house...

I am not saying A320renewal is 100% wrong, for sure his very unlucky experience is one to be told, but it is plain wrong to say that a pilot career is impossible, otherwise who are we us pilot working right now???

In addition one can chose to be a bush pilot, which is extremely rewarding for the ones who are aviators in their soul and not afraid to travel, and it doesn't cost that much to get there... Many bush pilots have evolved towars bigger and better salary, and it will happen again.

This part doesn't exist in the A320renewal narrative, hence my post in this thread to point out his posts are not to be read without warning, he is showing only one part of the reality, the only one he knows. Still, his experience remains and the cash he lost is real.

Just wanted to say that's not, in general, all black or all white.

[Wirbelsturm]

Just taken a full 777 on a shuttle flight, hand flew the approach because I wanted to and ATC in the region are very ameinable.

Good pay, good conditions, off to the Caribbean next.

The jobs are there, just not too many of them.

[Depone]

Redsnail,

Not wishing to go off point, but are you not allowed to hand fly with pax?

Back to thread. The world changes. Airlines can't afford to pay pilots to live a luxury lifestyle. Low cost operators pay as little as they can get away with. The unemployed will always take jobs with poor terms and conditions rather than let the bank repossess their house.

But even life as a loco pilot isnt bad. In fact, many pilots who complain are just guys who got into the wrong career. I flew down to Africa yesterday with an excellent, funny Captain. Oh how we laughed at the waypoints along the way: RUBMI-KOK-DIKAS. Not a bad day out and €700 less in debt. But some days are truly rubbish and sometimes the stress of loco employment does get to you.

Eyes wide open.

[KAG]

Not wishing to go off point, but are you not allowed to hand fly with pax?


Company policy I guess?

In mine this is autopilot on when in RVSM.

It means that it is not unusual to hand fly from 10000 feet to landing, even with 177 pax onboard. Not bad to keep your skills, we are pilot after all... Better to keep the skills we are paid to get and maintain...

[Alycidon]

Depone saysIn fact, many pilots who complain are just guys who got into the wrong career

This is the very point of the thread, it is too late to complain after the money is spent and there are a fair few unhappy people around who only realise that being a pilot is not quite what they thought it would be once they have been on line for a year or two and know a bit more more about the industry.

Some of the happier guys/gals are the ones who were already in the industry doing ground jobs etc, and knew the job for what it is, before they made the investment. (amazingly, it didn't put them off!)

It was less likely for a pilot to remain in the wrong career long a few years ago as many pilots had plenty of time flying instructing in a puddle jumper, flying turboprops, or flying for the queen and had ample opportunity and time to mull it over and to call it a day if they didn't enjoy it before getting into a career airline.

It is also still possible to have a very pleasant day out (with the right crew), the rigid, presciptive SOPs,OFDM requirements, fuel leagues and management harassment haven't quite killed off the fun, but they sure are trying to!

ps. hand flying is not discouraged at my airline, but most guys are reluctant to trigger any OFDM events so they don't handfly that much.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

I spent a number of years earning the money to fund my training, as did a number of my friends, and all of us are now enjoying the benefits of flying for a living. I think the main benefit is really enjoying your work.

A320 Renewal, perhaps your handle sums it all up? Your comments are pathetic and immature.

Comments made regarding to put up with slot delays, baggage handlers and getting up at 4am, well wake up and smell the coffee. If these things irritate you, you are in the wrong job.

Guys who enter this industry with a passion for flying and succeed with their goals will reap the rewards.

[Alycidon]

Comments made regarding to put up with slot delays, baggage handlers and getting up at 4am, well wake up and smell the coffee. If these things irritate you, you are in the wrong job.

Ah cat111c auto land, I see you've never had the joy of being told to turn off the rotating beacons by the ramp staff to facilitate a water top up you didn't request and hadn't been told about, while at the same time being told by ATC to expedite start and taxi to make the latest airborne time or your slot will expire. With a late headcount. While also trying to line train! On a level 2 variation! ie. don't miss the slot.

Launching into uncontrolled airspace at MRTOW bleeds off.

While also remaining calm, collected, maintaining situational awareness,responsible for the lives of 197 men, women, children and babies.

This "passion for flying" isn't infinite.

Balance and perspective.

No sugar thanks.

[ftimesf]

I asked myself the same question many, many times, and at one point I hated the fact that I foolishly took that trial flying lesson that started it all off.

Professional pilot training (modular based as I did) was an emotional roller coaster as I was in a stressful office based job that took up vast amounts of my time so coming home after a crap day, the last thing I wanted to do was study for my ATPLs etc. Finally getting through the CPL/MEP/IR was far from the last of the pain; in fact I'd say that was the beginning of the pain.

I realised that the market was in such a mess that I would have no chance of getting a job without a type rating. I just wasn't that lucky one in a few who's in the right place at the right time.

I asked for voluntary redundancy so I could fund the type rating. My family said I was a fool for giving up a great job to pay for a type rating knowing that the chances of a job were still very low and my salary would be cut in half! I spent a year getting little bits of flying work, living on the bread line and wondering whether I'd have to fund an LPC renewal..

Bitten by the bug I carried on and got there in the end.

Yes, I earn less than I used to, I fly short busy sectors and experience all the airport trauma that has previously been mentioned but, I work with good captains, have time off, and have a quality of life I never had in my last job - it's not all about money.

Would I have started the process if I knew what I know now?... Maybe not but that's not something I have to go through again...

Would I recommend someone starting from scratch today?.... Not a chance unless they had lots and lots of cash and were prepared for knock back after knock back..

[redsnail]

Thread drift response to Depone.
We can hand fly with pax (need to in London City, Samedan, Cannes etc) but we have to leave the FD in. If we want to do raw data, OM A stipulates it's to be done on ferry legs. :)

[fade to grey]

I'm with alycidon, mainly.
Truth be told alot of new entrants to this game are ex-IT workers with small willies, and want some stripes and a big watch.

They have managed to save up enough to try and get out of the office, and actually be taken seriously for once in their lives.

Driving down TCs , because in their race to get to their "60T jet" they have paid for everything an airline should provide.

I still enjoy the view, but if I had 100k today I wouldn't gamble it on this.

[Artie Fufkin]

I see you've never had the joy of being told to turn off the rotating beacons by the ramp staff to facilitate a water top up you didn't request and hadn't been told about

What am I missing here? Surely the skipper should just tell them to sod off?!

[ABZ777]

Why do it?

If its all you've ever wanted to do then what other option is there?

[a320renewal]

To add to the initial poster's question- I went into training with my eyes open, trained modular with dosh spare for a TR. I'm now in the process for getting a job with a Loco.


you mean you have paid for your license, type rating, line training just to be "in the process"?

some of you smoke to much crack! we are ALL in the process to get a flying job, it doesn't mean you will get a paid job.

[clunk1001]

Pilots complaining about terms and conditions going down, do you not realize that this is happening in all sectors of work.


Despite the recession some professional salaries are actually on the increase, rising almost as fast as Pilot salaries are falling. Some salaries in niche Technology sectors are up around 50% over the past 18 months, putting them on par with any long haul captain.


...but they don't have an internet forum to complain and bitch on

Most if not all professions do have internet forums, the difference I find with Pprune is the surprising lack of credence given to the advice and opinions of those experienced in the profession. If the expert advice contradicts their belief, many here will assume that the advice is simply wrong and discount it in favour of something which confirms their beliefs. (I'm sure I read something similar in some flying manual somewhere...).

Most of the pilots in and just out of flight school have tunnel vision to fly shiny jets, and will continue blindly 'heads down' in their course of action with a lack of awareness of what is happening around them. (Again, I'm sure I read something similar in some flying manual somewhere).

Lessons learnt in the cockpit are just as relevant outside the cockpit.


Many considering the profession who dont know better are sold the dream of the shiny jet by flight schools who already have hundreds of unemployed graduates.

And, in answer to the original question - personally, I did it because I wanted to fly a shiny jet. :)

[Mikehotel152]

Perhaps using the example of high salaries in niche IT jobs simply proves the point that the general trend is down?

And an earlier comment:

ex-IT workers with small willies, and want some stripes and a big watch

might just be a coincidence...

But yes, Clunk, I think the FTOs have a lot to answer for. Mind you, I am staggered at the numbers signing up for flight training since the recession started in 2007/8. Do people not do any impartial research before paying out such HUGE sums of borrowed money on training? :ugh:

I find it hard to sympathise. And that's whether it's honestly your dream to become an airline pilot or whether you just fancy the big watch (I still wear my £6.99 digital Casio for flying, as it happens...).

On a serious note, why don't people just get a job, go modular and then pay for your training using your income? Then, if you dont get a job you have something to fall back on.

is undoubtedly the best advice.

[FANS]

People signing up for non-tagged integrated schemes in the current environment do not have an approach to risk that is suited to airline flying. OR they can comfortably afford to lose this cash.

The current economic situation should not be underestimated by anyone at present, and I fail to see why one would not at the very least wait 6-12 months.

[Poose]

FANS,

What you forgotten to mention is that you aren't taking a great risk if it's not your money... :ok:

I was chatting to a very high up member of the RAeS a few weeks ago, who had recently been at a CTC open day. He mentioned that there were middle class parents - not amazingly wealthy, happily digesting and signing up for the marketing 'blurb' being pedalled. He told me how he could not comprehend the money involved and the ill researched, cavalier attitude to six figure sums of money... where the end result is more often than not, their offspring ending up as 'Flexicrew' at Easyjet and barely able to afford to eat.

Shocking. :ugh:

[FANS]

Poose - I understand what you're saying re peoples' parents paying for the course, but for many parents they will have to borrow the money themselves, and the child is expected to repay the loan - although the house is on the line!!

The sad thing is that you nor no one else is shocked by this anymore - it's quite the norm to be signing up for £100k of debt financed flying training in the worst recession in living history, and one of the reasons remains CTC's 100% placement record:

It is incredible that in this recession 200 hr cadets are getting "jobs" straight away flying A320 aircraft for leading UK airlines! Ipso facto this is no longer a career profession.

[taxistaxing]

I think people acknowledge the salaries are good at the top end, but given the responsibility of the job and the huge financial investment to get started there are easier ways to make money. £49k at tcx is at a top end jet operator and not typical for the industry - ga and turbo prop roles will offer far less.

As for why do it - in my case I have nothing to lose, no dependents and a job that will enable me to train modular debt free, and then see how the job market is in a couple of years. I wouldn't consider borrowing the money or asking someone else to borrow it for me give the current state of the industry.

[veetwo]

"great pay and conditions and you get free holidays"

Er yep. Whats the problem with that? Having a burning passion for flying will help you in an interview but its far from a requirement for success. I know plenty of guys flying airliners who never had a lifelong ambition to fly, they just decided it would be better than sitting in an office all day.

[pudoc]

Do it because I want to do it. When I'm in my 80s (if I'm lucky to reach it) I'll always regret not trying.

I'm a positive person, I will get a job. Anybody on the planet can disagree with me and they won't change my mind in the slightest.