Why Do It?
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Why Do It?
I have discussed this with friends and colleagues over the years and never really heard a good answer.
Why do people spend vast amounts of money on flying training when there is such a big pool of people who have gone before and been unable to find a flying job?
Add to this, nobody can really know what life is like as an airline pilot, until you have done it for a few years. So it all seems like a very expensive leap of faith.
Why do people spend vast amounts of money on flying training when there is such a big pool of people who have gone before and been unable to find a flying job?
Add to this, nobody can really know what life is like as an airline pilot, until you have done it for a few years. So it all seems like a very expensive leap of faith.
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When you know that it's the only career you want then a lot of people will go for it regardless of risk.
I'm one of the many who embarked on flight training and indeed spent a vast amount of money. I secured a jet job within 8 weeks of finishing the training so was one of the lucky ones. But absolutely, you cannot know what life is like as a pilot until you have done it for a while.
The job itself is absolutely fantastic. Manually flying a 60+ ton jet down the ILS and then walking away from the aircraft realising what a machine you have just flown. Can't beat it. No doubt there will be people on here in no time commenting on how the job isn't as fantastic as I'm making out, but that's just me, personally, I love going to work.
However, the company that you fly for can often bring a downer on the job itself. Less and less flying hours each month, management that hang up the phone on you before you have chance to say bye, and continually declining terms and conditions. But why do people still come into this industry? Because it's all they've every wanted to do. Myself included.
It's a downward spiral though. With each wave of new guys that join, the contracts get worse. Something needs to be done but that's another thread altogether!
I'm one of the many who embarked on flight training and indeed spent a vast amount of money. I secured a jet job within 8 weeks of finishing the training so was one of the lucky ones. But absolutely, you cannot know what life is like as a pilot until you have done it for a while.
The job itself is absolutely fantastic. Manually flying a 60+ ton jet down the ILS and then walking away from the aircraft realising what a machine you have just flown. Can't beat it. No doubt there will be people on here in no time commenting on how the job isn't as fantastic as I'm making out, but that's just me, personally, I love going to work.
However, the company that you fly for can often bring a downer on the job itself. Less and less flying hours each month, management that hang up the phone on you before you have chance to say bye, and continually declining terms and conditions. But why do people still come into this industry? Because it's all they've every wanted to do. Myself included.
It's a downward spiral though. With each wave of new guys that join, the contracts get worse. Something needs to be done but that's another thread altogether!
Last edited by Gyro Drift; 15th Jul 2012 at 13:39.
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You could say the same for any job - you don't know what it's like until you've tried it for a while! People also pay thousands and thousands of pounds to train as doctors or lawyers, or engineers or teachers. Why not go ask them why they wanted to do it without having tried it first?
It maybe is an expensive leap of faith, but that's each prospective newbie's decision to make. What doesn't help is the old-timers yacking on and on about how 'it never happened like this before'. Times have changed - maybe just because you can't see the appeal doesn't mean that others don't, and if there's only really a limited path into the job nowadays, people will still want to do it.
Someone's got to keep the company going to pay all the airline pensions after all...
It maybe is an expensive leap of faith, but that's each prospective newbie's decision to make. What doesn't help is the old-timers yacking on and on about how 'it never happened like this before'. Times have changed - maybe just because you can't see the appeal doesn't mean that others don't, and if there's only really a limited path into the job nowadays, people will still want to do it.
Someone's got to keep the company going to pay all the airline pensions after all...
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Thousands of people spending life changing sums of money on the hope of a job is definitely not the sole domain of the airline pilot.
Students fork out not far off what it costs to get a CPL/IR over 3 or 4 years to get BA/MA degrees with not only no prospect of a job in their field but also no intention of getting a job once they have the piece of paper.
That said, those who pay for a rating with no prospect of a job are taking it a bit too far but I get why they do.
I do it because I don't want to be anywhere else than in the piss smelling old crate I fly in
. obviously, a non piss smelling new crate would be lovely too. 
Students fork out not far off what it costs to get a CPL/IR over 3 or 4 years to get BA/MA degrees with not only no prospect of a job in their field but also no intention of getting a job once they have the piece of paper.
That said, those who pay for a rating with no prospect of a job are taking it a bit too far but I get why they do.
I do it because I don't want to be anywhere else than in the piss smelling old crate I fly in
. obviously, a non piss smelling new crate would be lovely too.
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Students fork out not far off what it costs to get a CPL/IR over 3 or 4 years to get BA/MA degrees
I had the flying dream, and I've enjoyed my PPL training immensely, but nowadays I suspect that if I ever find myself with £40k in disposable income in the future I'll have bought a share in a Chipmunk and an Austin Healey 3000 long before considering a CPL/IR and a shot at a flying career. A fun job no doubt but for me personally not currently worth it owing to the preposterous cost of entering the jobs market, the immense competition and the apparent continuing industry race to the bottom.
I suspect wannabes will still throw themselves headlong into all this silliness, because from personal experience it's so easy to catch and transmit Epaulattes Syndrome and be blinded from reality by dreams of big sunglasses and telling everyone you're an airline pilot. ES also creates an inescapable underlying feeling of 'I'll be one of the lucky ones'. I should know, I suffered from it. 17 year old males are particularly at risk from catching it, and that's my take on why glossy brochures and flashy websites work so well for big FTOs.
Just my 0.02 as a self-confessed wasgonnabe.
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ADC, just because the repayments are easy it doesn't mean that the money isn't spent, just that it's not that unpleasant to pay back, but still there are people shelling out £40k in loans to do English Literature and end up in a career in HR. I spent about that for my fATPL and I have a job flying planes I get paid well enough and I have a nice lifestyle (for the moment).
The whole professional training industry is totally arse about tit, people are being trained for all kinds of professions because it's financially beneficial to the training company but at no point does it guarantee to deliver skilled people into real jobs and for all of this, they take out long term easy repay loans. It's still a loan and it's still spent money.
The whole professional training industry is totally arse about tit, people are being trained for all kinds of professions because it's financially beneficial to the training company but at no point does it guarantee to deliver skilled people into real jobs and for all of this, they take out long term easy repay loans. It's still a loan and it's still spent money.
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Thanks for the posts so far, which I've read with great interest. For some reason the moderator has deleted 3 of them … they didn’t seem that controversial.
I was wondering if I was lucky enough to be back at 20 years old, would I take this huge gamble in the present employment market.
After due consideration I would say that I probably wouldn't. I think the best bet would be to do your PPL, buy a share in something fun, maybe aerobatic, and enjoy your flying that way. You are then in a good place to go fATPL if the job market improves. Unless you can get your training bundled with a job offer, your chances as a 200 hrs fATPL are about zero. With an A320 type rating and no time on type, it’s about the same – Sadly.
Somebody made a key point (which has been deleted??) that the “blind optimists”, jumping in at any price, have encouraged these various pay to fly schemes.
Everybody hates these schemes, and they will disappear like dust in the wind the moment people stop using them. Or to put it another way, every pilot that uses one of these schemes makes it harder for the guy behind him, and perpetuates this abomination.
If you do decide to take the leap of faith, Good Luck, and I hope your dream doesn't turn to bitterness.
I was wondering if I was lucky enough to be back at 20 years old, would I take this huge gamble in the present employment market.
After due consideration I would say that I probably wouldn't. I think the best bet would be to do your PPL, buy a share in something fun, maybe aerobatic, and enjoy your flying that way. You are then in a good place to go fATPL if the job market improves. Unless you can get your training bundled with a job offer, your chances as a 200 hrs fATPL are about zero. With an A320 type rating and no time on type, it’s about the same – Sadly.
Somebody made a key point (which has been deleted??) that the “blind optimists”, jumping in at any price, have encouraged these various pay to fly schemes.
Everybody hates these schemes, and they will disappear like dust in the wind the moment people stop using them. Or to put it another way, every pilot that uses one of these schemes makes it harder for the guy behind him, and perpetuates this abomination.
If you do decide to take the leap of faith, Good Luck, and I hope your dream doesn't turn to bitterness.
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you will never make any money in this job. spend 130'000$ or more to finish unemployed or low paid job at 1000-2000$ a month.
and when you work you still have to pay to maintain your licenses, medical, sim, hotel, living expense....financially, it's not possible.
you can turn all the possibilities in your head : line training, regional airlines, flight instructors, sky divers, highway control, pipeline, banner towing, discovery flight, cargo,mercenary flight,top gun, hercules, space shuttle,etc
you will never cut back the money invested, instead you debt will go up and up!
and you may not even find a flying job at the end, and if you have one, for how long?
you will finish like an
, bitter and upset, friends will call you to see what you get, and once they got the job, they will never contact you again...
most of my friends i had in aviation, are selfish, no girlfriend, divorced, and they only think about their little ego , and all turn around their flying bug.
and when you work you still have to pay to maintain your licenses, medical, sim, hotel, living expense....financially, it's not possible.
you can turn all the possibilities in your head : line training, regional airlines, flight instructors, sky divers, highway control, pipeline, banner towing, discovery flight, cargo,mercenary flight,top gun, hercules, space shuttle,etc
you will never cut back the money invested, instead you debt will go up and up!
and you may not even find a flying job at the end, and if you have one, for how long?you will finish like an
, bitter and upset, friends will call you to see what you get, and once they got the job, they will never contact you again...most of my friends i had in aviation, are selfish, no girlfriend, divorced, and they only think about their little ego , and all turn around their flying bug.
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Originally Posted by a320renewal
and when you work you still have to pay to maintain your licenses, medical, sim, hotel, living expense....financially, it's not possible.
Originally Posted by a320renewal
ou will finish like an , bitter and upset, friends will call you to see what you get, and once they got the job, they will never contact you again...
Originally Posted by a320renewal
most of my friends i had in aviation, are selfish, no girlfriend, divorced, and they only think about their little ego , and all turn around their flying bug.
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Pay €70,000 to get up at 0400, drive an old banger or a TT you can't afford 50km to work, have your bag rifled by failed plods, get dicked about by ramp operatives quoting health and safety tosh, ATC slots that are unacheivable, sector times that are far too short, management intimidation, foul mouthed base captains shouting at you across the crewroom, cabin crew who can't cope with the pressure and expect the police to come and sort out every passenger who complains. Junior captains so stressed out they can't think straight.....and you get to spend all your days off commuting.
That's what it's like.
Bargain.
That's what it's like.
Bargain.
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Just my thoughts...
It's very sensible and understandable to suggest that somebody go do a PPL and fly on it for pleasure, whilst earning proper money from a proper job outside of aviation. This nearly happened to me, but I'm on stab two of the flying thing now.
It doesn't quite work like that, I fear. If your wish is to FLY, and have a lot of fun doing it, then sure, do a job you enjoy (probably in business, where most of the money you earn is yours, or working for somebody using a specialist skill), then fly at the weekends, grab a share in something fun, tour Europe in it, go on flying holidays in the U.S. and the bahamas, etc etc. Yeah, it would be a lot of fun!
But this misses the point of why many people want to become, specifically, pilots of civil jets. Some people (myself included) - are very much interested in flying, but just as interested in doing a job that keeps you out of your comfort zone and out of your local patch. It's not all about the flying, it's about the strange places you are flying TO, and the unique challenges each place represents.
It's about feeling you're doing a job you genuinely enjoy getting up to do. I'm sure this wears off, but it won't wear off until you have done it. To digress - most people know what it's like to drive along a road with hundreds of other commuters, all heading to one place of work or another. It makes early mornings a bit sh*tty, truth be told.
How about driving along a road with hundreds of other commuters, but YOU are on your way to take the aforementioned 60 tonnes of aircraft at 600 mph to somewhere rather spectacular (or not, depends where you're going I suppose!).
Of course this post will read a bit cringe worthy to the experienced pilot, but it is an attempt, written in lay terms, to get at the question asked by the OP, of why people put themselves through this.
And referencing to friends of mine 'doing the job', there is a big difference between taking an SEP or MEP across the Channel bashing into short strips, and being sat at the front of an airliner monitoring computers where you're away in Cuba, the Maldives etc for a week.
Point being, they're completely different, therefore will attract different kinds of people, although that is a totally separate argument and I don't want to be around when it's discussed!
It's very sensible and understandable to suggest that somebody go do a PPL and fly on it for pleasure, whilst earning proper money from a proper job outside of aviation. This nearly happened to me, but I'm on stab two of the flying thing now.
It doesn't quite work like that, I fear. If your wish is to FLY, and have a lot of fun doing it, then sure, do a job you enjoy (probably in business, where most of the money you earn is yours, or working for somebody using a specialist skill), then fly at the weekends, grab a share in something fun, tour Europe in it, go on flying holidays in the U.S. and the bahamas, etc etc. Yeah, it would be a lot of fun!
But this misses the point of why many people want to become, specifically, pilots of civil jets. Some people (myself included) - are very much interested in flying, but just as interested in doing a job that keeps you out of your comfort zone and out of your local patch. It's not all about the flying, it's about the strange places you are flying TO, and the unique challenges each place represents.
It's about feeling you're doing a job you genuinely enjoy getting up to do. I'm sure this wears off, but it won't wear off until you have done it. To digress - most people know what it's like to drive along a road with hundreds of other commuters, all heading to one place of work or another. It makes early mornings a bit sh*tty, truth be told.
How about driving along a road with hundreds of other commuters, but YOU are on your way to take the aforementioned 60 tonnes of aircraft at 600 mph to somewhere rather spectacular (or not, depends where you're going I suppose!).
Of course this post will read a bit cringe worthy to the experienced pilot, but it is an attempt, written in lay terms, to get at the question asked by the OP, of why people put themselves through this.
And referencing to friends of mine 'doing the job', there is a big difference between taking an SEP or MEP across the Channel bashing into short strips, and being sat at the front of an airliner monitoring computers where you're away in Cuba, the Maldives etc for a week.
Point being, they're completely different, therefore will attract different kinds of people, although that is a totally separate argument and I don't want to be around when it's discussed!
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Pay €70,000 to get up at 0400, drive an old banger or a TT you can't afford 50km to work, have your bag rifled by failed plods, get dicked about by ramp operatives quoting health and safety tosh, ATC slots that are unacheivable, sector times that are far too short, management intimidation, foul mouthed base captains shouting at you across the crewroom, cabin crew who can't cope with the pressure and expect the police to come and sort out every passenger who complains. Junior captains so stressed out they can't think straight.....and you get to spend all your days off commuting.
That's what it's like.
Bargain.
That's what it's like.
Bargain.
Instrument rating plus 7 years, have a command on 60 tonne jet, training loans paid off and earning approx £90k.
Yesterday, flew to south of France. A routine flight with no weather /slots/ pax issues. Only an hour or so in the cruise, so had time for a coffee and a natter with the FO on the way down, just enough time for lunch, the paper and a sudoku on the way home.
Today, on standby, being paid to sit at home watching the cricket. It's beer o clock in an hour.
"Better than working for a living" has been said by many a pilot.
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Sorry, not every day is that bad Artie, but then days like you describe are fewer and fewer and being paid for standby duties is just not an option for an awful lot of pilots these days.
I have seen FOs sworn at by the middle management and read intimidating memos peppered with expletives directed at pilots by foul mouthed, gobby, idiot managers. Now that may be fine for the air force, (although I don't agree with it) where you get trained for nowt while being paid, but is no way to be treated after such a huge investment of your own time and money.
I fear that the days of walking into a job where you get a decent contract are well and truly over for the vast majority.
The flying schools have no interest at all in painting a true picture to the potential cadets, just the "living the dream" claptrap.
(In the interest of balance and perspective).
I have seen FOs sworn at by the middle management and read intimidating memos peppered with expletives directed at pilots by foul mouthed, gobby, idiot managers. Now that may be fine for the air force, (although I don't agree with it) where you get trained for nowt while being paid, but is no way to be treated after such a huge investment of your own time and money.
I fear that the days of walking into a job where you get a decent contract are well and truly over for the vast majority.
The flying schools have no interest at all in painting a true picture to the potential cadets, just the "living the dream" claptrap.
(In the interest of balance and perspective).
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ok, my turn...
being paid 15000$ every month to sit in a FBO(fixed based operator) eating pop corn, chatting with sexy ladies at the desk, then going to take a nap or play pool in the pilot lounge room, while my copilot is preparing my Gulfstream X,...in 30 minutes, I will be at FL 410, cruising M0.87, wooow! I will sleep at Mariot, jaccuzy, and next day I come back to drive my lamburgini to my 2 floors house in Beverly hills.
etc etc.
will you spend 100'000 euro for that? knowing your chance are less than 1 on 1000 for a job like that and you may lose all your cash!I did and I lost all my money!
and if the job looks so good, why should they pay you? it would be easier to ask pilots to pay a block of hours, oh, wait, this is called pay to fly? oh wait, this is why many pilots don't find job or become job less.
oh wait! this is going to be our future...I see you in my crystal ball, asking yourself how to get a job with all these low time pilots who were thinking the same like you!
And what will you do when a guy show up in the office of your manager with pockets filled with $ ( only3 months after you have started to work).A guy same like you with big dreams, and offering 60'000 euro to fly 500h, then the boss ask you to leave unless you pay him more? today 60'000 euro, tomorrow 100'000euro...like this the company get a constant cash flow into the company and free pilot.
Tell me? what will you do?
being paid 15000$ every month to sit in a FBO(fixed based operator) eating pop corn, chatting with sexy ladies at the desk, then going to take a nap or play pool in the pilot lounge room, while my copilot is preparing my Gulfstream X,...in 30 minutes, I will be at FL 410, cruising M0.87, wooow! I will sleep at Mariot, jaccuzy, and next day I come back to drive my lamburgini to my 2 floors house in Beverly hills.
etc etc.
will you spend 100'000 euro for that? knowing your chance are less than 1 on 1000 for a job like that and you may lose all your cash!I did and I lost all my money!
and if the job looks so good, why should they pay you? it would be easier to ask pilots to pay a block of hours, oh, wait, this is called pay to fly? oh wait, this is why many pilots don't find job or become job less.
oh wait! this is going to be our future...I see you
in my crystal ball, asking yourself how to get a job with all these low time pilots who were thinking the same like you!And what will you do when a guy show up in the office of your manager with pockets filled with $ ( only3 months after you have started to work).A guy same like you with big dreams, and offering 60'000 euro to fly 500h, then the boss ask you to leave unless you pay him more? today 60'000 euro, tomorrow 100'000euro...like this the company get a constant cash flow into the company and free pilot.
Tell me? what will you do?
Last edited by a320renewal; 21st Jul 2012 at 15:05.
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You bought a A320 type rating instead of finding a job somewhere in the world.
Sorry to speak so directly to you a320renewal, but I have read some of your posts, and they all look alike.
I gave you some adices in the past and you didn't answer me.
A piece of advice: when you definitely know what is to spend money to get some useless training and type rating, you, at the opposite, have no clue about how to progress in this career, and have not clue about the pilot career anyway, so avoid to give advices on that matter.
I never hesitate to warn about this career, and I try to make some people realize the difficulties, but when I read you I can tell that sometimes your posts are total bullcr@p.
Sorry to speak so directly to you a320renewal, but I have read some of your posts, and they all look alike.
I gave you some adices in the past and you didn't answer me.
A piece of advice: when you definitely know what is to spend money to get some useless training and type rating, you, at the opposite, have no clue about how to progress in this career, and have not clue about the pilot career anyway, so avoid to give advices on that matter.
I never hesitate to warn about this career, and I try to make some people realize the difficulties, but when I read you I can tell that sometimes your posts are total bullcr@p.