least risk bomb location biz jets

[FerrypilotDK]

Anyone know if there has been a study of least risk bomb locations for Challenger 604/5?

Generally, "an external door near the rear galley" doesn´t seem to be a useful idea(!)

[ksjc]

Why not just throw it out?

The Challenger baggage door can be opened in flight.

[FerrypilotDK]

That is what I was thinking without having more than my own mind on the issue. Depressurize and out with it!:ok:

[goldeneaglepilot]

Strange question. Why may I ask why is it a consideration - and where might you be when you throw the "bomb" out? I am surprised to see this on an internet forum for pilots. ESPECIALLY following the state of aviation security worldwide

[Grum]

Because most large aircraft have a specific point where it is supposedly safest to place a device if it were discovered on board, i.e. if it went off, minimum structural damage.

The AFM for most bizjets does not specify any such location. Good question, probably a good solution.

Can I open the door on a Falcon in flight? I think not, and chucking it out the DV window would probably blow my number 1 off. :\

[goldeneaglepilot]

I think the point is about alerting anyone to the potential to throw a package out of a business jet in flight....

If there was a device in the business jet sized aircraft, I think your stuffed - irrespective of where it is placed. Anyone seen how a rabbit warren is cleared using a very small amount of explosive? Its not the local explosion (which if done correctly is very small) but the shock wave going through the open tunnels that kills the rabbits.

The video below demonstrates a relatively low explosive device (used for simulating a real explosion in training scenarios) typically containing only 8gm of explosive (normally a grey dust like mixture known as "flash powder" - a mixture of aluminium powder and potassium chlorate) The mixture carries a fraction of the explosive potential of high explosives such as C4 or PETN. The tighter the device is contained when detonated then the greater the potential damage - look up on Wiki "pipe bomb" to get the idea.

mk9 thunderflash V pumpkin - YouTube

[PURPLE PITOT]

GEP, most airliner manuals will give a "least risk "location, but we all know that it's just going to blow the tail off anyway.

The OP asked about biz jets, as most manuals don't specify a "least risk" location. They do however ( at least some), have baggage doors that can be opened in flight.

Why do you think the russian mafia all use GLEX's!

[goldeneaglepilot]

Purple,

The famous ocean skydive / swim / sleep with the fishes scenario!!

My guess is that business jets don't list a location as its deemed that in most scenarios a device going off is going to spoil your day and probably give your mates the chance to claim your new boots (which are back at home) - the crew are unlikely to need anything material ever again.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Exactly, hence a bit of "creativity" may be good for ones survival prospects!

Fly safe.

[stuckgear]

FerryPilotDK, check your PM's

[Globally Challenged]

Agree it initially seemed like an odd question - but in the bizarre offchance that it occured in our CL30, then I guess you would EMER DEPRESS then open the baggage door and chuck it out.

No chance whatsoever of it going down a donkey and I would imagine a 604 would be the same.

Next question is what do we do if an alien beams onboard without a valid ticket :E

[goldeneaglepilot]

Surely dealing with the alien is easy? After all most of us do that at some point in our lives with teenagers..

[merlinxx]

So folks give the Ters a heads up here & help them out :mad:

Mods close this thread ASAP

[flydive1]

Yea, right:rolleyes:

[FerrypilotDK]

Strange question. Why may I ask why is it a consideration - and where might you be when you throw the "bomb" out? I am surprised to see this on an internet forum for pilots. ESPECIALLY following the state of aviation security worldwide

Hi goldeneagle. Because it is actually a requirement of ICAO Annex 6. Not exactly an issue for business jets, but we are operating under an AOC, where they have 15 Airbus´ and they have an airline mentality and wanted to know if one such location has been determined for the 604s.

[FerrypilotDK]

merlin wrote- Mods close this thread ASAP

I hope having read the replies, that you now understand the background and that this is in fact a requirement of ICAO for larger aircraft and so therefore a professional question.

I still think the baggage door, decompress and toss out, is the only logical option.:\

I have told the operations people, that the question is irrelevant for our operations, but they weren´t buying it and so gave me the job of trying at least to have a Bombardier or other "official" answer. Typical airline weenies I am afraid....:hmm:

[Doodlebug]

Good grief people, are you being serious??

Assuming you successfully manage to haul open the GLEX's cargo-hatch in flight you'll instantly disappear down number one's intake, right along with anything else in the compartment that isn't nailed to the deck.

[FerrypilotDK]

heh doodle.........Well, I had originally asked about 604 and 605. Our baggage door is under the engine, so it is actually possible, if we can get the baggage door open. Of course, depressurized first. Still seems to be the safest way.

In practise, I think that a pre-departure inspection of the cabin would reveal such a bomb. If not, I have a hard time imagining it showing up after departure....
Anyway, with our class of passengers, I don´t think it is a realistic scenario, but the emergency manual needs the pertinent paragraph.

Stuck-------thanks for the pm.

[Doodlebug]

So you had, Mr DK, so you had indeed. Mr Purple, may we watch when you lot have a go at lobbing bits out of the GLEX?
;)

[Doodlebug]

Ok, on a more useful note: Perhaps there might be a remote chance of maintaining structural integrity if the device were packed/sandbagged against the overwing emergency-exit window utilising wet cushions/blankets/liferafts etc.? Smallest hole in the pressure-vessel as compared to the main entrance and cargo hatch. Also, not too close to the main spar, whereas the cargo bay is right next to a fuel tank, never mind engines, hydraulics, and so on.

[Globally Challenged]

If the exit door blows out it will take out the rhs engine catastrophically on almost every bizjet type

[FerrypilotDK]

In my thinking through the matter and reading, the location near the emergency exit door, also looks like the best place in theory. However, the RH engine would also ingest.....conclusion. Preventative in-flight shut-down of RH engine. Still like the idea of tossing it out the baggage door after a depressurization, but it was pointed out to me, that the triggering mechaniam should also be inspected to see if it is a barometric one. If that can be ascertained, then a BIG no-no to depressurize, where the only resort might then be the emergency door, wet-blankets and towels, shut-down RH engine scenario.

Preventive pre-departure inspection of every nook and cranny must still be the best. Having done that, I cannot think of a scenario where a bomb would later be discovered. My F/A is so lazy, she would never find it anyway(!)

....slight attempt at humour.....

Good-night gentlemen.

[Doodlebug]

Undoubtably, Mr Challenged. But then I'd rather have bits of door going through number two than a bomb sailing through number one.

[flydive1]

Why would that happen Doodlebug?

In the case of Challenger or GLEX the engine is quite a bit higher than the bottom of the door and you would not need to open the door all the way, but just enough to push the bomb out, few cm let's say. You could actually push it out and down, away from the engine.
Also if you are worried about the intake flow you could pull the engine to idle or even shut it down.

[stuckgear]

Stuck-------thanks for the pm.

glad to have helped, having been down that road already.

it was best taking off forum as , the information provided to you could be used wrongly and without a debate about the ins and out. the Pm should put you on the right track for writing EM. i know mine was approved by several different auditors with commendation.

[Doodlebug]

Mr Flydive, will you agree that the cargo-hatches on the 604 and the GLEX are positioned a bit differently, and that it is reasonable to expect that the chances of something being ingested on the GLEX are probably higher? That said, we wont know until somebody tries. Ok, precautionary shutdown and an attempt to get rid of the ticking box - I'd be even more worried just about trying to crack open that hatch in flight without needing my own personal transponder-code very shortly thereafter. :eek:

[Doodlebug]

Stuck, very curious this side!

[PURPLE PITOT]

You can open it about 12 inches on the global before it becomes a problem.

[flydive1]

Yes, they are probably quite different, I do not remember exactly how the Challenger one is.
But talking about the GLEX, I see it quite feasible to just crack the cargo door open few cm, let's say 20cm, with the aircraft depressurized and drop out something away from the engine and without been sucked out yourself. As I said as a precaution you could shut down the engine.
Of course we are talking theoretically here as I haven't tried opening the cargo door in flight and not looking forward testing it.;)

[etrang]

So folks give the Ters a heads up here & help them out
Mods close this thread ASAP

No, that would be a thread asking for the MOST risk location. Do try and think before you post.

Mods, keep the thread open.

[etrang]

If you can't open a door and throw it out, the safest location would be in a bucket of water.

[Globally Challenged]

Those Louis Vuitton suitcases look pretty sturdy (there is never a shortage of them onboard it seems), try packing inside in the style of a Russian Doll ;-)

[PURPLE PITOT]

It's also entirely possible that the pax may wish to take their bomb with them at destination!:O

[Tinstaafl]

I always remind my passengers to check they have haven't forgotten their sunglasses, phones & wallets. Guess I should add 'bomb' to that list.

[BizJetJock]

And of course, don't forget that since the chances of there being a bomb on your aircraft are extremely remote, the chances of there being two independently are astronomical - So always make sure to take your own bomb!:ok:

[4SPAR]

Its important that we consider every security discussion with an understanding of "why we bother with security initiatives."
DETERRENCE
Those of you who post sincere suggestions or authentic documentation on such topics are communicating something very important to would be aggressors: "We are united as a professional community and committed to preventing, mitigating and responding to violence against our operations. If anyone attempts a crime against our operations they will fail and they will humiliate their cause."

Conversely, those who publicly ridicule security initiatives encourage and empower aggressors to attempt such crimes.
Consider what you are communicating to potential aggressors who are looking for a soft target with high profile victims.
Such ridicule is the breeding ground for the worst of tragedies against our professional community, the passengers who entrust their lives to us and the future success of our industry. You don't want those consequences on your shoulders.

It is critical that we stand shoulder-to-shoulder in the public arena as a community that stands tall, determined and vigilant on these issues.
Deterrence is hard won and easily lost.
Don't be the weak link.

[Sillypeoples]

Off the cuff if the bomb was going to go off in ten seconds, immersing the bomb in the lav blue water, pouring a pot of coffee on it, might kill an ignition source...that said, if I had time...some big jets have internal baggage doors that don't have nacelles behind them.

Would be nice to have portable oxygen...but if not..in say a Citation, power back, speed brakes,.nose goes over to 50 kts past Vmo(flight test standard), gently level off at 18k. AS hold to as slow as you can get it. Emer hatch PULLED inside...left banking turn, pax throws the bomb outside.

If the engine takes the package, chances are it will eat it up, and won't detonate. If the engine is hosed...a one engine flight is a no brainer, and I would consider trying to put the hatch back in..get things in the cabin back to psuedo normal again.

Consider yourself lucky in a biz jet to have the option to even consider the option. If it was an airline...the bomb would be ticking away while the pilots flip through SOPs manuals and checklists, calling dispatch for a solution. Probably go the way of the Alaska jackscrew deal...just flying and flying...no one making a decision....

[Tinstaafl]

I wonder if a massively skidding turn would help to avoid the package going through the engine?

[ksjc]

If you shut your engine down BEFORE you chuck the item out things might work better for you.