Would you recommend your Integrated course?

[Flygirl77]

Would you recommend your integrated course?

I have decided INTEGRATED is the way forward for me, and am looking for info re: which school is most interested in getting you through , not just in my ££££! ....(s'pose that puts Cabair at the bottom of the list then?!)

-I have the list of the 4 schools doing integrated JAR
-am going to LHR on 13th
-am looking for 1st hand experience/opinions from students as to how much help/encouragement etc you get?
-also, have you been messed around/had a bad experience?
-has anyone done the ground school ATPL exams somewhere else then taken up a CPL/IR INTEGRATED course somewhere else?

Thanks in advance
Flygirl77

p.s. have PPL and around 70 hrs TT, looking to start in next 6-8 months...after I rob a bank!

;)

[Gin Slinger]

can see no point what so ever in taking an Integrated course AFTER groundschool - if it's even possible to do so.

In terms of time, you'd be 75% there for a CPL/IR.

Suprised you're doing an Integrated course anyway if you've got 70 hours, surely it's a step backwards paying some hairy instructor showing you how to do mag checks again?!

[oxford blue]

How on earth do you expect to get any meaningful response to your poll?

How many students ever attend more than one FTO? Very few, and not usually for the whole course. Perhaps if one FTO goes bust and they transfer to another, or maybe if they do the main course at one FTO and a brush-up at another.

So all you are going to get (if anyone responds at all) will be responses from people saying "I went here and it seemed OK to me". And because nobody likes to admit that they could have made a mistake, they usually defend their old school with no knowledge of the others, or, if they had a bad experience, slag it off without knowing whether any of the others would have done any better.

It might set up a nice ding-dong on pprune, but it won't be very objective evidence to assist you in making a decision.

[Gin Slinger]

hey OB, just relax, no doubt it's just a bit of fun.

Nobody decides to spend £50,000 the strength of a few clicks on an internet BB poll - I hope!

[BillyFish2]

Spot on Oxford Blue.

This poll is a total waste of time. You can't possibly get any objective information or conclusions from this. Can't see much of the fun side either to be honest, unless you count watching various students and ex-students of these colleges vote as fun. Put it this way, if they all voted for their own college, who do you think would win?

Reminds me of the same thing on Sky News interactive. Sky ask stuff like 'Should they bring back hanging' and 89% vote YES as the only ones who bothered to vote all read the Daily Express.

Nice new facility this polling lark though.

[GonvilleBromhead]

Just out of interest Flygirl, why have you come to the decision to go integrated, given as has been pointed out, your background of PPL ? Just being nosey, that's all.

From your post (i.e PPL and asking the bit about the writtens) it would appear that modular would be more advantageous ? (however, please, no-one kick-start the age old debate). Just curious in this particular case, that's all.

:confused: :confused:

[U R Sole]

Oxford Blue & BF2

Why bring something to the top of the pile when you don't have anything constructive to say to someone who is obviously just starting out. If its such a waste of time why not just rate it instead of berate it! It's just someone else's way of finding out info. Those sort of comments really make me

:mad: :mad: :mad: !
(p.s you both really missed the point, read it again!)

[veritas]

Can you tell me why you would put Cabair to the bottom of your list? I have recently met up with a host of their integrated course students who reckon they have had fantastic value for money.

[Flygirl77]

Well, to all of those who got out of the wrong side of bed I am SO sorry to have caused you such strife!!!!.......HOWEVER, I duely note that hardly any of you actully have anything USEFULL to say in response to my query, nor do you propose any 'constructive' points as to the type of poll I might eventually use to help me!!!.....YOU may well all know the answers to EVERYTHING, but I don't , and am just trying to get some HELP here!!!

-and yes you can do the integrated course after doing groundschool.
-...as to why integrated?...I don' t want to prat around for 3 years and end up spending just as much £££ doing re-sits etc.
-If, however, you have something usefull to say AGAINST integrated courses, I would be ofcourse gratefull to hear it, along with anything else of interest.

-BILLYFISH2,.......... Can you tell me more about your research and final decision? (see e-mail addr.)
-VERITAS,....... can you tell me more about what the Cabair students say...only, all I ever here is that Cabair have no end of money-grabbing schems going on all over the place, and don't really care about the students as much as the others....My ears are open...

To those of you with constructive advice, thank you, and I look forward to more of it. Cheers.
:)
[email protected]

[Gin Slinger]

doing an Integrated course after you've finished your ATPL groundschool is nonsensical.

You can do a modular CPL/IR at certain schools which also offer Integrated courses.

[GonvilleBromhead]

Flygirl I hope I haven't caused offence simply by asking a question ? I apologise if so.

I am just curious as to your decision to go integrated given your background, nothing more than that.

No, I haven't got anything against integrated courses, a fine way to obtain the licences. I am personally doing the modular route which suits me, but not everyone. With the required effort, I do not consider my self to be pratting around, and thus far no retakes.

The only thing I would say re: integrated is the timing and cost of keeping current in the present climate, however, the employment situation may well be rosier come your graduation. There is always of course the option of doing modular in an integrated timescale, just another option, that's all.

I wish you well in however you achieve it.

:)

[togaroo]

Integrated is clearly the wiser way to go.
BAE is great. Not perfect, but nowhere is Im sure.... Cant speak for the other schools cos I havent been to any of them; But you can´t go too far wrong at this one.

GE xx :)

[Flygirl77]

dear BillyFish et al,
...that's fine, thank you for your reply.....and sorry if my response was a bit snappy, but thought I may as well respond with a bit of feist rather than just sit back and take it all and end up with no usefull info whatsoever, ( and it seams to have worked!). What you said was really very helpfull. I too have lookead at it all and decided that I want the full deal and the best possible chance of getting through, as I believe I'm not enough of a genious to get through the modular. (by the way, therefore, I'm sorry if 'pratting around' came accross as an insult to others, but I meant it with respect of my own position, and feel that I could do with the structure etc of the Integrated.)..and I know plenty of people who do modular, and get distracted, keep failing just one or 2 exams and just end up spending more and more as the years slowly drift by, how demoralising too. (all credit to those who can, but it aint for me)
All the afore mentioned schools do integrated CPL/IR according to the CAA website.

....there is however one little niggling thing that I had totally dismissed as it's rather a big upheaval, but am now coming back round to with the JAR integrated being damn expensive....I do hold...da-da-daaa.....a USA PASSPORT!!...yes I know, many of you would kill for that, so I'm wondering weather that would be a better route to go....by that I mean qualifly , work and live over there. anyone got any USEFULL advice re the USA option?....or any usefull sites to go to if not?

Thanks again for all the help,
cheers,

Flygirl77;)

[flyergirl10]

The main problem with this survey is that it represents a tiny percentage of those who participate in these school's courses. Are they voting bad-good- or that they just were there!? Probably every student at every school could tell a different tale.

Also, students don't know how to compare their school with any other.

[greengage22]

I agree. It's also prone to misuse. There is a lot of competition out there amongst the flying schools.

It's just as well you didn't include Bournemouth amongst your possible schools or Send Clowns would have voted 20 separate times by now.

[MAX]

Shouldnt the question be, 'Does anyone not recommend their school?', and then explain the problems they encountered.

As has been stated, you cannot compare shools when you have only been to one. As a modular student I can comment on 5 different schools, but I cannot comment on the merits of an integrated course, as I have plainly not been to one.

MAX:cool:

[40 yearflyer]

I hate posting. I need to remain anonymous. However, without giving my identity away I do want to say something regarding flygirl's poll. Have ever bought a financial product that has lots of discounts or alternatively seems expensive compared to the others?. And when you sign up to either of these options you find the performance of your investment disappointing as the people in charge of your investment are incompetent or just not as sharp as other fund managers. Well choosing a school is a bit like that. Walk into any of the schools on the pretence of visiting a friend. Do not go via marketing. Sit down and discuss with the students what they think. Ask to meet one, or some, of the instructors. Count the number of wrinkles on their faces - this equates to experience and believe me this counts. (Not to discount a young one who keeps on buying you a beer or so after the flight).
Do you ride a motorbike by chance? Totally irrelevant I know but the thought just crossed my mind. Cheers

[Gin Slinger]

please kill this ****ing stupid thread

[zerouali]

Don´t wish to get caught up in a school rivalry thread, but based on the pass rates of the course I´m on, and other courses here, I´d have no hesitation in recommending BAE Systems(now Flight Training Europe!).

It´s not perfect, but I´m glad I´m here! Come down and see for yourself.

[JohnnyPharm]

To Diverse a bit

Can anyone shed a light on employment rates from each of the integrated schools. Would like to do a poll but can't see how you do it any more.


The poll would be

I did integrated and have a job less then 1 year after graduating.

I did integreted and don't have a job one year after graduating.

I did modular etc etc as above.

Would also be intersting to state which school you attended.

[pa28biggles]

If you can afford an Integrated course go for it Flygirl!
Im doing modular because it is quicker to earn and save £35K (Also I like the fact that as I save the money I can do the training bit by bit) than to earn and save £60k for integrated. I.e, if I had £60K I would do integrated. How are you all affording integrated courses?
I've considered professional studies loans from HSBC, but I don't have anything to secure the loan on.
I've just started studying for ground exams part time. The earth is an oblate spheriod you know!:8

[EGAC_Ramper]

Well myself am looking at Cabair,Oxford or Jerez(Bae) to do my CPL/ME/IR.Though like yourself I already have my PPL and have chosen to go along the route of the modular course on a full time basis.Aswell as this I'd be doing the ATPL groundschool full-time.Like mentioned most pupils only go to 1 FTO,so poll is a wee bit useless in the genuine sense for what you intend to get from it.Better I think to trawl through all that has been mentioned about the schools fo your choice by using the "search" method.
Never know may see you out at Jerez next year !!:cool:


Regards+Cheers

[Olof]

Or am I wrong? Buying an ab-initio is perhaps the most tempting thing to do (afterall, the various offers often sound very good!). But I cannot understand why someone would do this (unless you have loads of £). Nowadays, you seldom get any good job offers just because you've completed an ab-initio at a respected aviation school. You need to be rated. Period. I would go for the module courses which is in almost evey case a cheaper alternative. Especially you Flygirl who already got a PPL!:rolleyes:

[grafity]

It's seems that any time the integrated v modular comes up that you get the people who have hired pilots before coming on and saying that they don't take into account where and how a licence was attained just as long as it was attained when hiring.

[flaps to 60]

Ahhhhh the wannabes section

I haven't been here for some time and i have to say i missed you.

Why haven't i been viewing these hallowed pages?.......Well thats quite simple i got a job.

Flygirl

You go with what you feel is best but i do recommend the following research.

Ask every school how many of thier Intergrated students have got into the airlines.

Ask the airlines that you are targeting what type of training they prefer.

What facilities do the schools have to get thier students into jobs.

What are the success and first time pass rates etc etc.

I know my chief pilot likes Intergrated for many reasons which im not going to go into here.

Those of you who dismiss Intergrated or CAP 509 as it was known when i did it must ask youself this question.

Why did BA, BMI, BY, EI even VS all have sponsored "intergrated course" Cadets. I dont profess to know, but there must be a good reason why they did it.

40 year flyer excellent advice!

Also those of you who treated flygirl with such disdain note the following.

I fly with captains who display the same bad attitude and guess what they are not the best pilots in the company, crap to fly with and worst of all universally hated.

So wind your neck in and listen before you talk and be aware that other people have opinions some good some bad but the mark of the man/woman is being able to accept just that.

flygirl never appologise for asking a question as there is no such thing as a stupid one only the odd stupid answer.

From my experiences of Intergrated i would highly recommend it.

You go Girl

[Olof]

I know my chief pilot likes Intergrated for many reasons which im not going to go into here.

Who will get the job, a rated pilot or a non-rated? Exactly, so why bother with the basic training? Go with the cheapest alternative (modular :E ) and then get a rating! I can't see how an intergrated course would give you any advantages when all the companies are looking for is a rating... or am I wrong?

[flaps to 60]

Olof

You are both right and wrong.

Some airlines will take you on with a type raing in tow but you will find tha most will probably type you again using their SOP's.

And some will positively not take you on with a rating as they look on it as too much trouble to get you out of the TRTO's way of thinking which may clash with thiers.

It's all a bit of a lottery really.

The one thing that i have found that is the best way to get a job in this market regardless of your experience is a personal recommendation.

Your with a crew for the best part of a day and many CP's only want to know if you can get on with them.

I did an Intergrated course and before i did so i called the airlines and asked them what they prefered.

Some said "modular", some..." don't really care" but the majority said "intergrated".

The one thing about an intergrated course is that it is a known quantity. They train you to be an airline pilot from day one. You report when the rosta says so. The uniform gets you used to wearing one on line (some of our pilots hate wearing it).

The regular progress checks gets you prepared for OPC's,LPC's etc.

But most of all is that it is a hard one right for a school to conduct and regularly checked by the relavant authority.

There is a mantra of discipline instilled in you from day one which i took with me when i became an instructor and battered my students with until i thought they met the grade. And yes they did appreciate it.

When the market is desperate for crews they will take anybody. But when its like it is now (getting better but still slow) they will take what they know is a tried and trusted (albeit not infallable) method of producing airline pilots.

This argument has been raging for years and im sure for many to come.

But the facts speak for themselves but how you read them is when the fun starts.

[jam123]

Nice one "flaps to 60"

Flygirl, i'm with you all the way!

I don't want to get into a fight about the usual Integrated Vs Modular, but this is how I see it:

If i do Modular then there IS a chance that SOME airlines might discriminate me because of this. However, if I do Integrated then i know for SURE that NO airline will discriminate me because i done Integrated!

So ladies and gentlemen, you tell me which is a safer bet!
(because that's what it is at the end of the day)!!!!!!!


Jam ;)

[flaps to 60]

Ps

To the people that believe that an intergrated course is "not the way to go".

Please ask EZY and TCUK why they are funding cadets on an intergrated course. They reply may answer all your doubts.

And Jam123 has a point ie better the devil you know etc.

[Olof]

I do think that your arguments are good ones fllaps. However, I have a hard time seeing how an intergrated course will give you that much advantage when looking for a job. I mean look at EZY, I can't read anywhere about them preferring the intergrated before the modular... (yes they do have the cadet program and of course this would be a great way to start but not all will get accepted) The same with CTC... to apply you need the certificates but how you got them doesn't really matter. I believe the real competition starts when you got the rating. I haven't heard of ANY pilot lately who has got a job right after completing the basics (CPL/ME/IR).
Some of my friends got the chance to work for Ryanair a year ago. The deal was like this: You buy the rating and we'll offer you a job. I think this is way you will get employed in the future (unfortuantely)...

[flaps to 60]

Olof

BMI regional and Logan Air have both recently taken on 200hr pilots and if my sources are correct they were all intergrated guys.

My airline took on a couple recently.

Its the old good training versus variable experience.

If you hang around Oxford long enough you see will the intergrated guys getting the jobs before the modular.

Before 9/11 BA was short of cadets and Oxford advertised that "suitable" self sponsored intergrated course pilots were being sent to BA for interview.

Now one example doesn't prove the theory but it certainly may resolve some people's dilema on which way to go.

Please dont believe that i think that Intergrated guys are better pilots because im the proof that thier not.

But what it does prove and i think that if you asked all the airlines this is that they are a known quantity to the airline and may well adapt to airline life better than some.

Some people like petrol cars some diesel. They both get you from A-B but its the manner in which they do it that makes the difference.

Most airlines have made up thier mind which they prefer when they have a choice. But when they dont it doesn't matter whether you got your licence from Readers Digest or the best school in the world. All their interested in is keeping the schedule going.

Some airlines are moving to the pay for your rating and get a job. It's an unfortunate way to go but if you can afford it go for it. Its better to be up there thinking "oh my word what have i just spent to see this". Than down here wishing you were up there at any cost.

I was lucky as my employer payed for everything and many still will because they have you bonded for 2-3 years.

For all of you with the quandry of where to spend your or the banks money good luck.

Which ever way you go when you get the job you wont remember any of this.

[silverknapper]

I haven't looked at this thread for ages - I thought it was a badly put question and hence would be full of the usual arguments and self justification.
Flaps to 60 - you say you trained when it was the 509 system. I think you miss the point of a full time modular course as opposed to the self improver.
Please ask EZY and TCUK why they are funding cadets on an intergrated course. They reply may answer all your doubts.
Their reply may indeed surprise you, given that their cadets are in fact following a modular course.
Now one example doesn't prove the theory but it certainly may resolve some people's dilema on which way to go.
Don't think it has any relevance, it was a vastly different market then.
I know of 3 guys taken on by Logan recently - 2 of which were modular. I know for a fact EZY don't care where you came from as long as you have a licence and min hours. Modular gives you more of these hours therefore I feel your comments may be mis-construed as there is firm evidence it doesn't matter.

SK

[flaps to 60]

Silverknapper

Check out www.ppjn.com and especially GB airways and BMI Regional.

They specifically state that for F/O's its intergrated that they want if i remember correctly its either that or 1500hrs for one of them. Flybe or JEA used to say Ab-intio 200hrs required everybody else 300hrs

I think your slightly confused on the sematics of this thread as a CAP 509 is the same as an intergrated course (overhauled with less flying hours) and ab-initio.

A modular course is what we used to call the Upgrade course from BCPL to frozen ATPL. Come to them with a PPL and the requisite number of hours gained anywhere and you do the "up grade to JAR FCL

The self improver 0-700hrs no longer exists.

Dont get me wrong if i ever made to to a CP then it would be the person rather than the qualifications that would seal the deal.

But be aware that some airlines do mark a line which some types of course pass and some don't.

At the moment its all about experience on type.

The EZY and TCUK are full time courses we used to call this intergrated.

[Olof]

At the moment its all about experience on type.

Not following... This was what I claimed from the beginning. If this was true, then the intergrated wouldn't be the vital issue, or? Anyhow, I would still stick to modular mostly because of the econmical aspect... Ok, if you got loads of it then Oxford might a good alternative but it is for sure not the cheapest one!

[silverknapper]

From PPJN
Easyjet : fATPL
BA Citi: fATPL and 50 hours in last year if modular or integrated

No one specifies integrated.

They are the only UK airlines I could find on PPJN apart from Emerald who only mention relative experience. Will happily be proven wrong - may have missed something.

I am not caught up in semantics - I am very conversant with the whole system, though I fear you may not be up to speed on what a modular course entails. My point was I fear you may be giving slightly out of date advice.
The EZY scheme is a full time modular course.
This means that they are free to send their guys to the best school for each module, and not tied to one place. A modular course can be done in the same time as integrated, for £15k less and with more hours in the air. It is not the old self improver route, perhaps a modern day equivalent but more controlled. And at the end both have same licence, indeed most forms I have seen don't ask you to specify.
If you hang around Oxford long enough you see will the intergrated guys getting the jobs before the modular.
Nothing supports this these days. A while back I would agree yes, but not now.
Please don't take this as some sort of personal dispute, I certainly don't mean it to be. I only meant to get the point over about your cofusion over the EZY TCUK scheme. Don't mean to labour it.

Cheers

SK

[flaps to 60]

Silver

Not taken personally if i did then both you and i know i would not survive in this industry.

There is nothing wrong with healthy debate.

I have pasted the below from ppjn i doesnt prove the argument but provides more fuel for the fire.


From GB airways section of ppjn
F/O
DEP - Airbus A320/321 type rating prefered otherwise 1000 hours on EFIS Jet.

Cadet - Jerez or Oxford ab initio graduates with 200 hours.


From Bmi Regionals section of ppjn
F/O
Integrated course. Otherwise, 1500hours, MCC, significant multi time, etc.

Now asking new starts to pay for erj type rating. £3000 up front and then monthly.

As i am no longer an instructor maybe im out of date, but I can agree to disagree and hope that Flygirl and the others who have this happy dilema enjoy whatever course they take.

[silverknapper]

I stand corrected, was looking at the wrong bit.
Very interesting though.

Cheers

SK

[mad_jock]

One of my mates is in the proccess of doing his type rating for BMI regional.

He is a 220>300 hour modular. Must ask him what his bond etc is.

I would apply for everything the worst thing they can say is no.

MJ

[Delta Wun-Wun]

PPJN is very useful but not everything on there is completely accurate. Things change very quickly.

[no sponsor]

Just to put the record straight, Easy Jet cadets are modular. While on my brush-up course at Bristol in June, there were seven EZY cadets in there with me. They are not classified as being integrated. So there you go - one of the biggest airlines in Europe is training its cadets under the modular scheme.

Integrated today just means you do a full-time course at the same school. These EZY cadets do a bit in New Zealand, distance learning theory and their IR and type rating in the UK - all at different schools, hence they are modular. You can't go changing the definition of modular and integrated to suit your argument!!

I've no doubt that there a crusty chief pilots who remember the old 509 scheme and equate that with integrated today, but it is based out of ignorance, and probably a bit of successful lobbying from certain schools. And, if the 509 course was around today, I'd be on one.

What's really odd is that I know a few guys who joined BMI regional who were hour builders from the pre-JAA days - again some lobbying has clearly been done by certain schools.

So, to decide integrated or modular? It is a gamble that you have to work out; that the additional costs will get you up the queue quicker, or will save your CV from the bin. If you reckon it does, you have the money, and the opportunity cost makes sense, then do it. Unfortunately, PPRUNE is probably not the best place to ask the question - ask the airlines.

I can't quite work out why GB Airways specifies the school, as opposed to just integrated - what is wrong with Cabair integrated graduates? That seems more politically motivated than a judgement of standard, hence the whole reasoning is probably unfounded and ignorant.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Totally boils down to choice.Myself having decided upon the route of modular with Flight Training Europe in Jerez.Though I'd be doing the CPL/ME/IR combined in one big lump,so by all means on integrated route but paying less.I feel the total cost to myself and the risks involved suit me specially seen as my dear parents are going gaurantor on the loan from HSBC!!.It is such a big choice,would if had the money and not needing to borrow it then certainly I'd choose integrated (I think) but for me right now I'm excited and looking forward to it!!:ok:


Regards+Cheers

[schooner]

Bond for bmir is £3000 upfront then £200/month for 5 years, ie, £15000 in total.
Cheers.