Strange problem using laptop in a 152 cockpit -interference?

[RyanRs]

I have noticed a strange issue when trying to use my laptop in an aeroplane and wonder if anyone knows the cause?

Basically i am trying to film a bit of my flying in the 152 and i am using a Logitech HD webcam connected to a laptop. I use this method as it is cheap, effective and the webcam is the perfect size and shape to mount inside the 152, i simply cannot afford to spend £200 + on a aircraft specific camera.
Anyway, i have tested the laptop/webcam setup many times at home and in my car -even in my lorry at work! to which it works very well! however, when i set it up in the 152, get the camera positioned, sort the light levels and focus etc but as soon as i hit REC on the software, the program freezes! The first time it happened i just put it down to sods luck, computer having a moment and decided to try again another day, so i took it home, tested it again, all worked A Ok! set it all up in the aircraft again, hit REC and... frozen! program crashes again! i tried it 3 separate times now, even tested it outside the aircraft on the 3rd attempt to see if it was working and it was, but once inside that cockpit, the software refuses to comply!

Does anybody know what the cause of this could be?! the aircraft's master switch was off on all instances so no gyro spinnng or transponder active. What could this be!!? i am yet to try another laptop, shall do asap, but it does still seem odd that the software will record fine everywhere but in the aircraft cockpit!!

Any help appreciated

Many thanks
Ryan

[S-Works]

Aside from your request for technical support....

What on earth of you thinking off? A laptop and webcams in the cockpit is not a smart move. How about concentrating on flying the aircraft.....

[peterh337]

If the same setup works elsewhere but not in the aircraft, hard to say what it could be. Something has to be different...

Maybe the laptop is running off the battery when in the aircraft? Many laptop USB ports can deliver the usual 0.5A when on mains power but cannot deliver more than say 0.1A when running on batteries. Also many laptops can deliver the full current on some USB ports but not others.

There is no problem with using a webcam+laptop in an aircraft provided it is set up so it is started on the ground and then one does the flight without messing with it. I have done various videos like that, recording direct to a computer (a winXP tablet) using the windoze Moviemaker to record the video via USB. A £50 webcam is pretty good. But I don't do that anymore because a normal camcorder beats everything else on quality. One just needs to mount everything properly so it can run unattended.

[airpolice]

As Peter has said, it needs to be mounted properly.

I have a pax hold the camera, but when I am solo I strap the tripod down with the rear seatbelts and bungee cords and start recording as soon as I am settled in my seat. That way I can forget about it and it records my pre start checks and the entire flight from picking up the checklist to unstrapping and getting out.

That will at least provide the AAIB with something to go on if I don't make it back one day.

[riverrock83]

Any chance it could be vibration? Your laptop will have a hard disk spinning at 5600RPM (or there abouts) so large amounts of vibration (for example, an engine start) might be able to upset it enough to stop for protection reasons. If my Dell laptop has any sort of jolt it stops its hard drive spinning automatically as a protection mechanism. Mind you - I haven't taken it into a plane...

[BackPacker]

Two words (and a digit): GoPro Hero 2.

Get the motorsports edition as it comes with a big suction cup that will stick to just about anything, as long as it's not porous. Reportedly even to the outside of the aircraft at typical flying speeds - but I have not worked up the courage to try it for myself so far. It also comes with various stick-on mounts and a variety of mount conversion hardware so it's extremely versatile in how and where to mount it.

It'll only cost you a little over an hours worth of flying. Time you have probably wasted already by messing with that laptop/webcam solution. And a solution that may save money in the long run - what if there's a bit of turbulence, the laptop drops and breaks? The GoPro comes with a polycarbonate housing that's probably strong enough to drive a lorry over.

[Genghis the Engineer]

An unsecured laptop is a safety liability in the air, the hard drive will almost certainly pack up at altitude anyhow (most rely on air bearings and even well mounted in research aircraft pack up at about 8000ft density altitue, although solid state netbooks are good).

A cheap HD camcorder will provide far better quality than a webcam, and cost about £65 on eBay or Amazon. Or just mount a standard digital camera on a cheap mount and use that - most people have something suitable already.

G

[mad_jock]

Hard disks really really don't like lots of vibration and bumps especially when writing heaps of data which it will be doing if recording.

[Whopity]

Would that be gyroscopic effect?

[Pilot DAR]

Ryan,

A number of valid points have been presented here, certainly the possible damage to your hard drive due to vibration and altitude are two of them. Also consider the possible effect of the non-aviation electronics on the aircraft systems. It is likely that the signals which ARE emitted from the computer won't interfere with the aircraft systems, but how do you know?

I suggest using a more suitable camera, properly attached, for this purpose.

If I were asked to approve such an installation, these are questions I would be asking myself about the "installation":

Does the modification.....

[ alter] A containment or restraint system intended for occupants or the storage of items of mass (e.g. cargo)?




...Affect the flight-crew's visibility or their ability to control the aircraft?

...Affect a communication system required by the approved type design?

...Affect instruments, or indicators that are installed as part of a system required by the approved type design?


If you answer "yes" to any, it's technically a major modification, requiring an approval...

Approach these impromptu modifications with caution, you are taking the responsibility for a modification and validity of the C of A, as well as the safety of the flight....

[ABZ777]

I use a Canon Ixus 220hs compact camera, which can record 1080p high quality HD video, mounted to a gorilla pod flexible tripod which grips well to the coming of a PA28. The camera has SDHC (high capacity SD) storage so you can take approximately 45 mins worth of full quality video on just an 8GB card (I've yet to try a 16GB) The camera is compact and light for carriage rather than taking a bulky laptop into such a confined space - a solution for under £150 :)

[overstress]

Seriously, get a solid state camera, then you can switch it on and forget it and concentrate on looking out of the window.

[egsc_h17]

We've mounted consumer hard disk products in private aircraft a number of times, and some commercial aircraft too (which requires destructive testing and certification).

As has been pointed out, hard disks hate the vibration from prop aircraft (rotary wing is problematic too). They pretty much don't work at all without vibration counteracting mounts. Tuning those mounts involves a vibration table and quite a bit of effort.

The simpler, cheaper solution is to replace the hard drive with an SSD. You still need to tie everything down well of course.

[mad_jock]

I had quite a bit of success with the rubber safety matting from childrens play areas for sitting cabinets on to protect servers.

Don't just cut a big square and stick the thing on top. Use the old 3 point stability tripod then you don't get funny natural frequencys screwing with things.

[RyanRs]

Oke, right... Wow! lot of replies :O

Firstly, i will assure everyone that i have no intention of trying to operate the laptop whist airbourne! I did mention in my opening post that i was having these issues whilst even the master switch was off, so i was very much on the ground and parked in the apron whilst analysing the faults!

Saying that, the issues causing the software to crash cannot be anything to do with engine vibration or electrical interference emitted from the aircraft's electrical systems! The software literally works fine all the time its outside the aircraft!! Does the transponder or any of the radio equipment have any strong magnets or alike that could give off interfering flux etc? I shall try as someone suggested and hit record outside the aeroplane then take it inside and set it up, guess its not exactly any hardship to edit out the first couple of minutes later on.
As for keeping the laptop safely stowed, when closed up it fits snug down the rear pocket of the seats, all i have to do is alter the windows settings to 'Do nothing' when the lid is closed. Tbh i think that even if the aircraft become inverted, the laptop would take some shaking for it to fall out! The laptop its-self should not cause any interference to the aircrafts equipment as i ensure all radio-transmitting devices (wifi,bluetooth etc) are off. Tbh, my mobile phone has more wireless interfaces built in to it than the laptop and that never causes a problem -well except from the occasional polling noise down the headset.
As for the GoPro cams etc, they are nice! would love one! but at nearly £300 i cant really afford to be honest :(

Power wise, im just using its own battery so no external power source.

[24Carrot]

Does the transponder or any of the radio equipment have any strong magnets or alike that could give off interfering flux etc?

Compasses work in aircraft, so I think we can safely rule that out.

[pilot2bornot2b...]

Could laptop be overheating? If you have set it on the seat it can overheat especially if the vents are being blocked or hot air is not getting away from the laptop area.

[RyanRs]

An Alpha Aviation MPL cadet at Clark in the Philippines was fooling around with his camera upon landing and had a nice prop strike.

Some of the FI's text instead of watching for traffic in the air or while taxiiing.

Fly the airplane.

Well that would be impossible for me to play with the camera as it would involve climbing in the back of the aircraft. Im not looking for personal opinions on whether one thinks filming my flying is safe or not, trust me, I am more qualified than most on this forum for knowing what is and what isn't a distraction when it comes to things like flying / driving etc.

Overheating.. unlikely? the laptop was barely sitting down for less than a minute. Im flying a 150 aerobat on friday, il take the laptop down and see if i can get anymore results..

[Genghis the Engineer]

I am more qualified than most on this forum for knowing what is and what isn't a distraction when it comes to things like flying / driving etc.

Doubtful.


Anyhow, have you tried putting the laptop on its edge, presumably with the lid down, in something equivalent to a rear seat pocket anywhere else? I've not tried it, but that doesn't exactly sound optimal for an laptop to work well.

It *may* be that it's self protecting from Li-Ion thermal runaway. But, I'd expect that to take longer than that. You do know about that risk however do you? It's the reason why NASA remove the batteries from all the laptops on their research aeroplanes and just run them on aircraft power - a Li-ion fire would very likely destroy a C150.

G

[goldeneaglepilot]

I am presuming that if the laptop is working in a similar setup (own power) ignition or masters off in your car / aircraft. then the laptop has one of those pesky aircraft sensors that allows it to see out from under its lid and it says to itself "oh sh!t, I'm in an aeroplane - stop working"

Sorry but having read this thread (and agreeing with the many points regarding the wisdom of a laptop in an aircraft for filming) can't help but wonder if the OP is in fact a very clever and sophisticated, now whats the word? ah yes, troll....

There is no other logical explanation why the laptop should not work with the master off in the aircraft on the ground.

RyanRS said: "I did mention in my opening post that i was having these issues whilst even the master switch was off, so i was very much on the ground and parked in the apron whilst analysing the faults!"

[peterh337]

Yes it should just work.

But I recall an occassion when I was trying to download some data from an EHSI, via USB, and just could not get it to work.

It worked fine on the bench at home, previously. Same laptop etc.

So.... what was different?

It was a duff USB cable :ugh:

Incidentally, re LIPO batteries, I have one of those model aircraft LIPO protection bags tucked behind the life raft, on the back seat. They won't contain the smoke but are supposed to contain the fire. It's hard to totally avoid LIPOs because even a smartphone has one. However they should not just go off on their own - unless punctured or massively overcharged

Lipo Safe Charging and Storage Bag - YouTube (http://youtu.be/hcwOwf55Rtc)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwOwf55Rtc

[RyanRs]

Genghis - i dont know how you can make that remark as to what i said regarding my comment on distractions, i could be a chief aviation health&safety risk assessment manager for all anyone on here knows! however, i am not but, in my line of work i have to undergo continuous training and testing for these sort of things so i think i can quite rightly say that i prob know quite a bit more on the subject than most!

Goldeneaglepilot - i really dont have a clue why your suggesting im one of these 'trolls' :s i have litterally come on here seeking some advice as to why my laptop refuses to work properly whist its inside the cockpit of the aircraft? I am quite new to aviation and therefore there is a lot for me to learn and afaik there may be something specific in aircraft that could be causing the problems i am getting!? If you dont ask the questions, you will never learn the answers, true? no need to stick lables on me for enquiring!

Anyway, back on topic..
Thanks for the head up on the Li-on batteries, i have heard about batteries exploding or catching fire but tbh i thought that was a problem with older types and rectified in todays batteries! Ill certainly bare this in mind. What type of batteries do proper cameras -ie the cameras mentioned earlier in this thread?

[BackPacker]

What type of batteries do proper cameras -ie the cameras mentioned earlier in this thread?

GoPro uses a Li-ion. 3.7V, 1100mAh 4.07 Wh to be exact.

Does a Li-ion fire sustain itself without oxygen? The GoPro by default comes in a watertight housing so I would assume that the fire would burn itself out through a lack of oxygen before the housing would melt.

(Doesn't apply if you use the other -open- back door though. And with that open back door attached the sound quality is remarkably better. Or in other words: You hear the engine do "vroom" all the time, much clearer. Yeah, I know, I still need to get me one of those headset adapter/extension cables so you can plug the intercom into the GoPro.)

[Slopey]

I am more qualified than most on this forum for knowing what is and what isn't a distraction when it comes to things like flying / driving etc.

I am quite new to aviation and therefore there is a lot for me to learn

:ugh:

Anyway - what happens if you start the laptop recording from outside the cockpit, then put the laptop inside it? Anything? Worth a go.

If you *don't* close the lid on the laptop, does it work - do you have the power options set appropriately so that the laptop doesn't enter hibernate/sleep when the lid is closed, or when it's not on external power?

And as previously said, if the lid is shut but for whatever reason, the screen isn't off (happens on my Mac Air occasionally), they can get really hot, really quick and if stuck in a back seat pocket (which I wouldn't trust to keep anything in while inverted btw), it'll get even hotter even quicker, and shut down due to thermal protection, or worse - catch fire!

This is all terribly complicated when you consider the benefits of a cheap video recording digital camera/video device, with a suction mount.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis - i dont know how you can make that remark as to what i said regarding my comment on distractions, i could be a chief aviation health&safety risk assessment manager for all anyone on here knows! however, i am not but, in my line of work i have to undergo continuous training and testing for these sort of things so i think i can quite rightly say that i prob know quite a bit more on the subject than most!

Actually it wasn't a statement so much about yourself, but about the other people on this forum. I know reasonably well a lot of people's backgrounds having been active on Pprune for more years than is good for me, and know that there are very few people *better* qualified than some of the people who have posted on this thread.

Regarding Li-ion batteries. See below. Laptop batteries are very scary things, and a laptop running powered without proper ventilation, can be a major safety hazard. So far as I know all of the NASA and NCAR research aeroplanes, which use laptops on board extensively, prohibit laptop batteries on board, for just this reason.

G

Extinguishing In-Flight Laptop Computer Fires - Lithium Battery Thermal Runway - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vS6KA_Si-m8)

[darkroomsource]

i prob know quite a bit more on the subject than most! ... I am quite new to aviation

hmmmmmmmmm

[Deaf]

Use laptops with USB cameras quite a bit (not in a/c). Virtually all need more power to work properly. As mentioned the USB supply is usually marginal for current.

I use a modified USB cable with its own 5V 1A (battery/regulator) supply but the simplest way is a powered hub.

[goldeneaglepilot]

The thing I dont understand is that the OP said the camera system worked outside the aircraft and was using its own power

Power wise, im just using its own battery so no external power source

Overheating.. unlikely? the laptop was barely sitting down for less than a minute

The software literally works fine all the time its outside the aircraft!!

I did mention in my opening post that i was having these issues whilst even the master switch was off, so i was very much on the ground and parked in the apron whilst analysing the faults!



Others have managed to use a laptop / webcam, sometimes with spectacular results

26 Turn Flat Spin in a Tipsy Nipper - YouTube

[mad_jock]

Depending what windows you have.

Go into power plans and then advanced options

Then under USB in battery change suspend to disable.

And see if that helps.