Non Aviation GPS unit as back up?

[BabyBear]

I am currently considering a GPS unit (possibly Garmin Etrex 10/20/30) primarily to use kayaking. Clearly if possible it would make sense to buy one which is multi functional and could be used with aviation charts, essentially for gliding.

Does anyone have any knowledge/experience of such units?

Thanks,

BB

[achimha]

A smartphone with an aviation app? There are waterproof ruggedized cases for iPhone etc.

[jollyrog]

I tried a hand held (walking) GPS once. Just once. I ended up infringining some Class D.

[Flyingmac]

Load Skydemon onto a Micro SD card and stick it in the Garmin?

[peterh337]

I wouldn't touch a non-av GPS with a bargepole.

It's fine if you find yourself in a liferaft, have a GSM signal, and need to phone somebody your GPS position, but your phone doesn't have a GPS :)

[BackPacker]

Until I got the iPad, I always used my 15-year old Garmin eTrex Euro (the first of the eTrex series that was available, without a moving map) for flying.

I always planned my route in the conventional way, using map, lines, E6B and whatnot. Then fired up OziExplorer, for which I have scanned digital aviation maps, created the route and uploaded it using the serial cable to the eTrex.

I also put in all airfields, VRPs, NDBs, VORs and whatnot of my local flying area, so that I could do a "direct to" if necessary. Or create a route on-the-fly using the route function of the eTrex. But you have to be very familiar with the unit to do that because it's very fiddly.

Obviously the edges of airspace cannot be represented by waypoints or any other functionality of the eTrex, so the GPS was always supplementary to the paper map.

For gliding, I would still consider a special gliding GPS, as you will want to be able to load the polar curve of your glider into it, so that it can do the glider-specific calculations for you accurately (best glide speed given the circumstances, final glide etc.). And these gliding GPSs may also work as official loggers.

I tried a hand held (walking) GPS once. Just once. I ended up infringining some Class D.
The only time I ever bust CAS was when I did not have the eTrex with me. (Not that it would have helped, as it was a vertical bust, and not a horizontal one.)

[darkroomsource]

I use my auto GPS once, darn thing kept telling me to turn left at the next intersection.

Without the aviation maps, they're only good for knowing your longitude and lattitude - and I have a hard time finding my position on a chart with that information.

Without airspace information - updated regularly, they are only a reference to be used in conjunction with a chart.

[Ultranomad]

I used two smartphones and one Chinese no-name car GPS navigator (all the three running Windows CE) during VFR flights. (Naturally, for IFR the question is moot anyway). Oziexplorer worked like a charm on all three; Skydemon was too slow on the older smartphone, borderline slow on the car GPS, and good on the newer phone.

[SEP Flyer]

I've got the OS Maps downloaded on my iphone which I use for walking etc - and I use it as a back up if my normal small Airbox Clarity failed - for situational awareness to cross check with the map. Works well for me!

[peterh337]

For desperate-last-resort backup purposes, a GPS phone is not a bad idea, provided you have a way of running a real aviation chart on it. With some phones this is actually quite difficult.

Do first make sure that it can acquire a fix if switched on while flying. Some cannot; A few years ago I tested a batch of Thuraya satellite phones (all satphones have a GPS and your location gets transmitted with the call ;) ) and IIRC none of them would get a fix if turned on while flying (or while driving at > ~30mph).

But frankly the best backup for a primary-use GPS is to have a second GPS that is actually usable. For a panel mount GPS you absolutely must carry a backup, in case of a total loss of electrics, and for that I use a G496, but really any similar unit will do fine and you can get a G296 fairly cheaply on Ebay etc.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I came to the conclusion a while back to buy a dedicated unit for each job.

My Nuvi is superb in my car.

My Aera is brilliant for flying with

My lowrance Go2 lasts all weekend walking.

My phone uses GPS for various android apps very well.


"Jack of all trades", where GPS is concerned, does seem to mean "master of none".

But yes, Garmins do seem consistently the least problematic.


That said, if you can cheaply buy a waterproof housing for your smartphone, and possibly install an inexpensive aviation app on it - why not use that as a backup throughout. (Disregarding for a moment that generally there are only two directions on a river, and it's pretty hard to mistake which way you're travelling!)

G

[BabyBear]

Thanks for the replies.

It seems the practice of using non aviation GPS units is not as unusual as I had expected, even to the extent of the Etrex having been used.

It appears the sensible (workable and cost effective) option choice is either a micro SD with Skydemon (is this relatively easy to do?), or to dispense with the idea of buying a separate GPS for kayaking in preference to finding suitable apps for a phone. Having a Blackeberry at the moment will probably mean looking at something else, maybe an iphone?

But frankly the best backup for a primary-use GPS is to have a second GPS that is actually usable. For a panel mount GPS you absolutely must carry a backup, in case of a total loss of electrics, and for that I use a G496, but really any similar unit will do fine and you can get a G296 fairly cheaply on Ebay etc.

Thanks Peter, I appreciate it makes sense to buy an aviation GPS to back up a primary aviation GPS, however as the main purpose of the new GPS unit is kayaking an aviation GPS would not meet my needs. I thought it may be an option to buy one suitable for kayaking that could function as an aviation GPS.

That said, if you can cheaply buy a waterproof housing for your smartphone, and possibly install an inexpensive aviation app on it - why not use that as a backup throughout. (Disregarding for a moment that generally there are only two directions on a river, and it's pretty hard to mistake which way you're travelling!)

Thanks Genghis, any recommendations on a reasonable aviation app? It's true there are generally only two directions one can travel on most narrow UK rivers, however the same is not true in the sea!:p

BB

[Genghis the Engineer]

Have a look at something called "Pocket FMS" which is highly spoken of.

G

[Prop swinger]

BabyBear,

Think of Garmin as a hardware vendor that also sells maps; they don't usually allow users to upload their own maps. Some of the newer (& pricier) units have a custom maps facility (http://www.garmin.com/us/products/onthetrail/custommaps#fragment-2) but there may be a size limit which will make it hard to get an entire 1/2 mill at a decent resolution. Another option, which should work on the eTrex, is to load an airspace overlay (http://ukgarminairmap.wikispaces.com/Use+Notes+2) over the basemap (back up all the Garmin supplied maps first.)

Pocket FMS, SkyDemon, Satmap, Mapyx Quo & Memory Map are software/map vendors who will sell you hardware that runs their maps. The advantage of this is that you know that their software will work OK, what you may not be able to do is run any other software on that unit.

Pocket FMS, SkyDemon, Mapyx Quo & Memory Map will also sell you software/maps that run on your own hardware if that unit is compatible.

Pocket FMS & SkyDemon are very good powered aviation software, but probably next to useless for kayaking. Quo & Memory Map are simple moving map software that won't provide you with the aviation features that the others do but will sell you different maps for different activities.

If I'm flying a task in a glider, I use XCSoar which is much more suitable for gliding than Pocket FMS or SkyDemon. For local soaring & powered flying I use Memory Map aviation charts & then Memory Map again with the appropriate map for driving, walking & any other outdoors stuff.

[BabyBear]

Thanks again G & Prop Swinger.:ok:

Having spent more time on the investigation I have all but concluded an iphone would be too much of a compromise and at a not insignificant cost.

I have an ipad2 at the moment running Skydemon, I do not have a current stead so have no way of knowing whether the ipad will be primary or backup.

As I am in the market to buy a GPS unit it made sense to establish if there was one which had some flexibility. The idea of buying one which could run SD from a micro SD makes sense.

Having spent some time looking at units today I have concluded that although the Etrex range is a nice size to handle the screen is a tad small. The Montana seems to offer greater flexibility and is therefore a candidate?

Does anyone have any experience of this unit, specifically:

a) Does it acquire and hold the GPS signal in the air?

b) Will it run Skydemon from a micro SD OK?

Thanks,

BB

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have flown with an eTrex; whilst I know it works well for ground pursuits, ergonomically it was horrible in the air.

On the other hand, yes, it does maintain a good satellite signal.

G

[BackPacker]

ergonomically it was horrible in the air.

With only five buttons on the "Euro" model (later models have six I think) the eTrex will never be ergonomically friendly. Particularly not if you compare it to touchscreen devices like the iPad.

Despite having used (and liked) my eTrex for over 15 years, I think I have never ever entered a lat/long coordinate using those five buttons. Well, maybe once, as a test. The only waypoints I ever created in anger using those five buttons were "mark present location" waypoints. Similarly, the times that I created a route on the eTrex using those five-buttons and predefined waypoints are very rare.

What has proven to be useful is the "direct to" functionality, where you select a waypoint and head straight to it. And the track log of course.

But honestly, getting all these aviation waypoints in, and the routes, is something that's best left to OziExplorer. A bit of planning helps, but I have had my laptop on the wings more than once, to do a last-minute load of the route into the eTrex just before flight. In that respect, get one of the eTrex models that include a serial or USB cable by default. The Vista for instance.

I've been quite happy with my eTrex for flying for a number of years. But would I buy one today if the primary purpose is flying? Probably not. There are so many aviation-specific units available for not a lot more money that getting an eTrex for flying is just plain silly.

Other than that, it has proven itself to be an extremely rugged device. Apart from flying I have used it for hiking, geocaching, sailing and various other outdoor activities, all over the world. It has gotten soaking wet on a number of occasions, been dropped, banged about in the backpack and whatnot, and is still going strong. Two alkaline AA batteries will last for dozens of hours, and even with NiMH rechargeables the unit will be powered for 10 hours or more. And despite the iPad and the on-board GPS, it still lives in my flight bag as a backup.

[BabyBear]

I've been quite happy with my eTrex for flying for a number of years. But would I buy one today if the primary purpose is flying? Probably not. There are so many aviation-specific units available for not a lot more money that getting an eTrex for flying is just plain silly.

Thanks again guys', agree with the above. The unit being purchased is not primarily for aviation, but it would be good if it could be used for such, that is why I have decided against the eTrex and I am considering the touch screen Montana (as per my previous post:p) with the bigger screen.

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=161&pID=75226

It's good news that the Garmin handhelds will hold the signal, assuming the Montana has similar performance to the eTrex.

That just leaves the question of whether a Montana will run Skydemon from a micro SD? Anyone running Skydemon from a card?

Backpacker, I will be in Schiphol tomorrow, is it likely to be a more favourable price in Holland than the UK?

Cheers,

BB

[BackPacker]

Backpacker, I will be in Schiphol tomorrow, is it likely to be a more favourable price in Holland than the UK?

I would not bet on it, but it never hurts to look. Make sure you've done your research beforehand, and make note of the best price (including shipping) you can get on eBay.

So far I have found electronics on Schiphol very expensive, as they are normally using the RRP ex VAT as the retail price. While high-street or internet prices, including VAT, are typically lower.

But I was browsing the Schiphol website in response to your query and I now see that they're selling the GoPro Hero 2 Motorsports edition for a few euros lower than the price (including shipping) I recently paid to a UK eBay seller. But that seems to be a special discount instead of normal practice.

[dublinpilot]

Garmin devices do not run WinCE operating system.

Therefore it won't run Sky Demomn, PocketFMS or any other software apart from it's own software as far as I know.

[BabyBear]

Thanks dp, back to the drawing board. Saved me a lot of time in Schiphol later, cheers.

BB