Turkish F4 "Vanishes"

[RetiredSHRigger]

BBC News - Turkish military F-4 plane 'vanishes' near Syria border (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18554246)

According to the BBC A Turkish F4 has been shot down by Syrian Air Defences. If true I cannot see Turkey not responding militarily.:=

[glojo]

According to the BBC A Turkish F4 has been shot down by Syrian Air Defences. If true I cannot see Turkey not responding militarily.:=The link you attached suggests this aircraft was actually shot down, or crashed on Syrian soil. If,,,, If this is the case then I would expect a few red Turkish faces.. Perhaps as red as a Turkish Delight!

[Just a spotter]

Just wondering, for the purposes of the interpretation of the NATO Charter, is all Turkish territory considered "in Europe"?

Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .
Article 6 (1)
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:


on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

JAS

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Turkey and Syria are well north of the Tropic of Cancer.

So it counts.

[ORAC]

Ras al Basit in google maps. About 5-8nm south of the border on the coast.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

DT saying the men were picked up in international waters. Syria 'shoots down Turkish fighter jet' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9349777/Syria-shoots-down-Turkish-fighter-jet.html)

This will be interesting.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Internationally recognised territorial waters are 12nm. Syria claims 35nm. Might be a factor.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

That wont help much when, as has been said, the Turks retaliate.

I dont know much about the Turkish mil, do they have Tomohawk type capability?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Yup, home-grown SOM, ALCM, 160nm range*, 5m accuracy in testing. Should be in service now.

Never assume dictatorships are going to do things which would be sensible to us. They are on completely different agendas.

Who'd be the AD Commander? Probably in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario.


*Which means they can reach Damascus from Turkish territory (just, though the missile may be capable of longer range)

[Lonewolf_50]

In response to this outrage, the Turks will doubtless bomb a small island in the Aegean claimed by Greece.

Why?

It's the only war plan they have on file that they can put into action in short order! :E

Second thought: I wonder if Mr Assad has about puckered up his trousers into his upper colon about now, pondering on how the Turks might responde if they are in a bad mood.

[Sir George Cayley]

Al Jaz now reporting Turkish PM states Syria shot a/c down.

SGC

[Milo Minderbinder]

Syrians? Or Russians in Syria? How close are the alliances between Syria and Russia? If Turkey attacks Syria, will the Russians retaliate? Theres a lot of unfinshed Russian / Turk animosity, and the Russians believe Turkey is behind a lot of the Central Asian Muslim resurgence in an effort to create a "Greater Turkey". They've been looking for a way to knock Turkey back for years, what better way to start a flash war than a false-flag shootdown?

Sorry, got the paranoia head on today
Wheres SAMXXV - he'd be sure to agree

[racedo]

Or a Gulf of Tonkin incident with a drone used as a means to justify war on Syria ?

Lots of conspiracy theories out there...

[frg7700]

Any chance of leaving them "out there"?

It's complicated enough.

[dead_pan]

I wonder if the defection of that Mig 21 earlier this week was significant in this shootdown? Perhaps the Syrians mistakenly thought another of their fighters was making a bolt for it.

I doubt much will come of this, after all both of the F4 crew reportedly survived. There's been several border skirmishes over the past few months - despite their bluster the Turks don't really have the stomach to square up to Syria. Its not their fight.

[The B Word]

Russian interests in Syria? Well one of the biggest is the Naval Base at Tartus...

http://www.bangladeshfirst.com/images/daily/2012/02/07/russian-naval-base-tartus-google-earth.jpg

...this is the Russian Navy "pull in" for the Black Sea Fleet in the Med.

Things are about to get very interesting, methinks! :eek: Especially for Cyprus.

The B Word

[frg7700]

The crew, although earlier reported safe, are officially still missing.

[Milo Minderbinder]

and haven't the Russians just sent a reinforcing fleet to Tartus....anyone know if they have aircraft in Syria?

[beaufort1]

Syria now admitting they shot the F4 down after detecting it flying at high speed and low level.

BBC News - Syrian military says it downed Turkish fighter jet (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18561219)

[Midnight Blue]

Why didnt the Turks respond decisively in 2010, when Israel Military killed 9 Turks in International waters on a civilian ship?

Bloody Israeli raid on flotilla sparks crisis - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - Israel-Palestinians - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/bloody-israeli-raid-flotilla-sparks-crisis/)

[frg7700]

Aye... I sometimes wonder why Britain & France didn't declare war on the Soviet Union for invading Poland the same day as that Hitler chap.


Then I think... 'cos they didn't want to and get on with whatever I'm supposed to be doing.

Or you could say that the Turks responded decisively by being a tad put out and making some bellicose statements about the Israelis. Which is more than they've actually done about the Syrians so far... So let's all look on with interest.

[Midnight Blue]

nah, I am with you. I prefer a solution, where the Turks take a Syrian excuse, maybe bash them verbally, as long as the incident really happened in international airspace and not over Syria.

I would not plan military missions in vicinity of an unstable country without need...

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Turkey is now admitting the incursion, or at least saying that the F-4 may have "strayed".

Given that the Turks are not denying Syrian claims that it was downed 1km from the coast, I don't think they've got a leg to stand on.

Beeb: linky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18562210)

[ORAC]

Given that the Turks are not denying Syrian claims that it was downed 1km from the coast, I don't think they've got a leg to stand on. That depends. If you wanted an incident which would push them into declaring humanitarian corridors into northern Syria and a No-Fly Zone - with Syrian air defences being suppressed, you might just have seen it.

Turkey is increasingly looking east and wants to be seen as the dominant Islamic nation in the region. That sets up a confrontation between Iran as the main Shia nation and Turkey as the Sunni, the civil war (and it is now a civil war) in Syria as a proxy.

Ah, you might say, buy isn't Iran about to become a nuclear power? To which I'd say watch this space. I'm sure Turkey can talk nicely to Islamabad about technology, as for the rest....

Turkey aims to increase ballistic missile ranges (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-aims-to-increase-ballistic-missile-ranges.aspx?pageID=238&nID=12731&NewsCatID=345)

Nuclear Plant is a Must for Sustainable Energy in Turkey (http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/137488/nuclear-plant-is-a-must-for-sustainable-energy-in-turkey.html)

.......Turkey had announced plans to build three nuclear power plants with a total of at least 12 units by the year 2023. Turkey had already sealed a deal with Russia's nuclear engineering company Atomstroyexport, which will build the country's first nuclear power plant in the Mediterranean port of Mersin in the Akkuyu area.

[Corporal Clott]

If schwacking jets because you're in someone's airspace in a military jet is de rigeur and the Russians seem OK with it - can we schwack the next BEAR, BLACKJACK or BACKFIRE that intrudes our airspace?

I would hope that this event recieves full International condemnation and that the UN Security Council and NATO lend it their full atttention.

Clott

[pr00ne]

Corporal Clott,


No, because they don't ever enter our airspace. They are flying in international airspace over international waters when they are shadowed by the RAF and NATO.

[ORAC]

Radar tapes from Olympus should be receiving a great amount of interest.

[Al Murdoch]

The Turkish President said: "It is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over (national) borders ... when you consider their speed over the sea," Mr Gul told the Anatolia news agency. "These are not ill-intentioned things but happen beyond control due to the jets' speed."

Could anyone with a knowledge of air defence comment on this? My understanding (admittedly from a naval/now civvy) standpoint is that diplomatic clearance is very definitely needed for any military asset to enter the air or sea space of a foreign country. Am I wrong?

[LS-4]

Never assume dictatorships are going to do things which would be sensible to us. They are on completely different agendas.

Who'd be the AD Commander? Probably in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario.

Maybe you're right. A more sensible action such as scrambling interceptors to check things out might not be their cup of tea.

Could anyone with a knowledge of air defence comment on this? My understanding (admittedly from a naval/now civvy) standpoint is that diplomatic clearance is very definitely needed for any military asset to enter the air or sea space of a foreign country. Am I wrong?

Didn't quite follow the Turkish President on this one myself. An incursion is an incursion, isn't it?

[ORAC]

Didn't quite follow the Turkish President on this one myself. An incursion is an incursion, isn't it? I believe the point was that airspace infringements happen - but usually result in a diplomatic protest, not the engagement and destruction of the aircraft and the death of the crew.

However, most don't occur when both sides have withdrawn their ambassadors, there is firing across the border and one is publicly admitting to hosting and supporting a rebel army conducting incursions into the other.

As for the region, I can remember discussing such matters with an Iranian colonel back in 1976 during a CENTO TACEVAL in Turkey shortly after the USAF lost a C130, rumoured to have been lured across a border using meaconing. Do you have any problems when aircraft cross the USSR/Iranian border?

"No", he replied, "If they cross we shoot them down, and if we cross they shoot us down. We both know where we stand".

[lj101]

Could anyone with a knowledge of air defence comment on this? My understanding (admittedly from a naval/now civvy) standpoint is that diplomatic clearance is very definitely needed for any military asset to enter the air or sea space of a foreign country. Am I wrong?

You need dip clearance if you fly within either 12 nm of land, even a tiny island somewhere in the middle of an ocean, 12 mile avoid without clearance.

[LS-4]

I believe the point was that airspace infringements happen - but usually result in a diplomatic protest, not the engagement and destruction of the aircraft and the death of the crew.

I would agree, but apparently he said that it's "routine." I'm just a civvy flier, but in terms of air law there aren't any exceptions for military fast jets, are there? Situational awareness, proper clearance, ATS FPL etc. goes for everybody, right? Stupid questions, maybe, but still.. Statements from both governments puzzle me.

As for the region

Cultural differences have crossed my mind as well.

[Chicken Leg]

I'm wondering.......

Syria has just escalated violence against a NATO member. Could the West (NATO) now go and give the troublesome irks a good shoeing without a UN mandate?? Now that really would pi55 the Commies off!

[LS-4]

I could be mistaken as I know little about the state of things, but I really doubt it. Syria remains a difficult case with all that sectarian stuff, possible shady groups amidst the mess on the ground, regional factors etc.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

[Updated] Turkish RF-4E Phantom shot down by Syrian Air Defense battery. Known and unknown facts. « The Aviationist (http://theaviationist.com/2012/06/22/tuaf-f4-shot-down/)

[LS-4]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see about all this. Not unexpectedly, rumours are flying.

And let's not forget about the crew.

[ORAC]

ISTANBUL - Hürriyet Daily News: Ankara tries to manage crisis with Syria over plane (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ankara-tries-to-manage-crisis-with-syria-over-plane.aspx?pageID=238&nID=23879&NewsCatID=338)

Ankara has been trying to resolve the crisis which was started by the shooting down of a Turkish F-4 reconnaissance jet by Syrian air defense in Syrian air space over the Mediterranean on June 22.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu chaired a crisis management meeting at his ministry on June 23 in Ankara which the deputy chief of Turkish General Staff, Gen. Hulusi Akar, and head of the Turkish National Intelligence Organization (MİT) Hakan Fidan also attended. That was the second in a row in the last 24 hours. The first one, chaired by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and attended by Gen. Necdet Özel, Davutoğlu and other top government officials was held last night following the incident after which Turkey confirmed that the F-4 had been downed by Syria and two Air Force pilots were missing.

By that time Damascus had already announced that it was they who shot the plane with Russian-made anti-aircraft batteries and later on they understood that it was Turkish. This is understandable since the Bashar al-Assad regime is in big trouble inside because of the civil war and outside it has been vulnerable to Israeli attacks a number of times before; Turkey and Israel use similar types of American-made war planes.

The Turkish reconnaissance plane, which took off from Malatya air base (where recently a NATO radar was based as a part of the Missile Shield System), seemed to be on an intelligence mission in the east Mediterranean. President Abdullah Gül on June 23 said the Turkish plane might have violated Syrian air space by mistake because of its high speed. That is why Turkey is trying not to escalate the scandal by making a statement blaming Syria and not immediately calling NATO for joint action.

The opposition parties are well aware of that. Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu, the leader of the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) has said there were a number of questions to ask to the government but Turkey should act in calm and try to solve the crisis through diplomatic means.

The incident has put Turkish foreign policy regarding Syria in additional difficulty. Turkey has been actively taking part in supporting the Syrian opposition in their struggle to depose the al-Assad regime. Turkey has been hosting more than 35,000 refugees from Syria including 12 army officers of brigadier general and higher ranks; they are in contact with the Syrian National Council and Free Syrian Army, both having central missions in Turkey.

Following Saturday’s meeting at the Foreign Ministry a third meeting was called by Erdoğan in order to find the proper move to make regarding the incident; one of the most difficult decisions to take in recent years.

[racedo]

Seems like Syria decided to stop Turkish recon missions directly...........

Doubt Turkey will want NATO involved when shown it was in the wrong, suggest this will die down very quickly as an incident as neither side have much to gain.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Do jets routinely violate other nation's airspace?
Well, not accidentally.
We weren't allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship during the Cold War, so 100 ft over the foredeck would be unthinkable ;)

I doubt very much a Turkish recce crew would be just off the coast without knowing it, especially as this is a routine run for them.

Possible scenario: The Syrians thought it was the Israelis. Remember the reactor raid in 2007 (Operation Orchard)? The Israelis came over Turkey then.

Anyway, the Turks (and the Rest of the World) now know the Syrian readiness state!

[LS-4]

We weren't allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship during the Cold War, so 100 ft over the foredeck would be unthinkable

And blaming it on an NDB or something would have been out of the question? :}

[sevenstrokeroll]

The F4 in question is now reported as a RECON F4, unarmed.

The latest article I've seen says the plane was shot down for violating syrian airspace. question of course on what constitutes national airspace of course.

pilots missing, both sides looking for pilots...turkey says it will do something.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Phantom or bad fake ... lol
Òóðåöêèé èñòðåáèòåëü «ïðîùóïûâàë» ÏÂÎ Ñèðèè // KP.RU (http://www.kp.ru/daily/25900/2861052/)

http://i.imgur.com/NptXl.jpg

[KhaoTum]

Iran is the new 'bad guy' - Syria is in the way. Turkey is dependant on US and NATO military aid. Good guys need to know how switched on is Syrian AD capability. Put feelers out. Feeler is shot down. Hilary bumps gums. Behind scenes, Turkey encouraged to engage in 'Kick off'. Russkis watching eyes wide open..........
Tonkin non incident comes to mind.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Turkey vows action after Syria shoots down jet - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/06/23/turkey-syria-plane.html)

trouble at mill!

[Milo Minderbinder]

That Russian website that jcjeant linked to is interesting in translation
Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kp.ru%2Fdaily%2F25900%2F2861052%2F)

Basically they're suggesting the MIG-21 that went to Jordan was hijacked by a mole with a view to obtaining the IFF codes - and that the lost Turkish flight was a trial of fake IFF codes to test the Syrian defence......
Murkier and murkier - and I don't know if it indicates paranioa on the part of the Russians, or an attempt at spin, but either way, a disturbing line of argument

[sandozer]

Looks like Pantsyr-1 was the culprit.

Newly-supplied Russian Pantsyr-1 anti-air missile used to down Turkish warplane (http://www.debka.com/article/22112/Newly-supplied-Russian-Pantsyr-1-anti-air-missile-used-to-down-Turkish-warplane)

[Ada Quonsett]

When are they retiring the F-4E Aselsan Phantoms? What is the extended life cycle of the airframe?

[snafu]

Nasty piece of kit!! :eek:

[SOSL]

"Turkey is dependant on US and NATO military aid." Well actually Turkey is part of NATO; as are the UK, USA and a few others. If a country is a member of a military treaty organization and has contributed to that organization for many years they have a right to expect military support when they need it.

[ORAC]

Syria shot down Turkish jet in international airspace, claims foreign minister (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9352113/Syria-shot-down-Turkish-jet-in-international-airspace-claims-foreign-minister.html)

Syria shot down a Turkish fighter jet while it was flying in international airspace some 15 minutes after momentarily straying into Syria's territory, Turkey's foreign minister has claimed.

Ahmet Davutoglu said that there was no warning from Syria before it shot down the plane, which did not have arms and was flying on a training mission and undertaking a radar system test.

"According to our conclusions, our plane was shot down in international airspace, 13 nautical miles from Syria," Mr Davutoglu told TRT television. "The plane did not show any sign of hostility toward Syria and was shot down about 15 minutes after having momentarily violated Syrian airspace. The Syrians knew full well that it was a Turkish military plane and the nature of its mission."................

[jcjeant]

Hi,

The Syrians knew full well that it was a Turkish military plane and the nature of its mission.":)
Seem's the Syrian intelligence services are very good (like their air defense) :ok:

[ORAC]

The point being that, in shooting it down in international airspace, Syria conducted an act of war to which Turkey is entitled to respond and to ask for help from the rest of NATO.

The total destruction of all Syrian SAW and AD airfields might be an apposite response....

[Krakatoa]

"......we were not allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship......"
Not in my day. Must have been a different Cold War.

[sitigeltfel]

The point being that, in shooting it down in international airspace, Syria conducted an act of war to which Turkey is entitled to respond and to ask for help from the rest of NATO.

Not really,

As a member of Nato, Turkey could potentially invoke Chapter V of the alliance's treaty which states that an attack on one state would be viewed as an attack on all signatories of the alliance.
But because the clause dictates that such an attack must be carried out on European or American soil, Mr Erdogan is unlikely to make such demands of his Western allies.

[ORAC]

But because the clause dictates that such an attack must be carried out on European or American soil, Nope, it doesn't say that, and an attack on aircraft over the mediterranean is specifically included.

Wanna argue? :cool:

The North Atlantic Treaty (http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm)

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

Article 6 (1)

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

[ORAC]

I'll point out that, in attacking a NATO nation Syria has liberated them from having to gain UN Security Council approval to respond.

NATO Article 5 allows action under the right of individual and collective self-defense guaranteed by Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. The principle was agreed otherwise, during the Cold War, the USSR and China could have vetoed any response to an attack on a NATO member.

Syria may just have totally opened the door to a whole world of hurt.

[CargoOne]

Consultations to win some time to load JDAMs into B2s and get aerial refuelling airborne?

[pr00ne]

CargoOne,

To attack what? To achieve what? For what purpose?

[dead_pan]

I'll point out that, in attacking a NATO nation Syria has liberated them from having to gain UN Security Council approval to respond.


The Turks will be hard-pressed to argue that they were attacked, especially if it does transpire that their F4 did violate Syrian airspace. Sounds to me like they are fishing for some backing/sympathy.

[ORAC]

The Turks will be hard-pressed to argue that they were attacked, especially if it does transpire that their F4 did violate Syrian airspace. Sounds to me like they are fishing for some backing/sympathy. An airspace violation is just that, it is not an act of war. The deliberate shooting down of the aircraft when it was back in international airspace was and is specifically covered in the NATO Charter.

[Green Flash]

OK, with NATO (ie the US) holding Turkeys coat (Int, Satelite and all manner of non-kinetic happenings) who would win between Turkey and Syria? For the sake of argument lets say the establishment of a no-fly zone a la northern Iraq including GBAD assets. Escalation play would be blockade of all Syrian ports. Could Turkey stick one on Assads boys? :confused:

[glojo]

An airspace violation is just that, it is not an act of war. The deliberate shooting down of the aircraft when it was back in international airspace was and is specifically covered in the NATO Charter. I think claiming this military aircraft was shot down over International waters might be speculation and so far both sides have only agreed that this aircraft had at the very least been in Syrian air space, the location where it was actually hit is still open to debate.

Japanese airliners, U2 aircraft, this is hardly the first incident if its type and if you want to go 'walkabouts' there is a price to pay.

Did Turkey cooperate when forces from NATO countries wanted to invade Northern Iraq from the Turkish borders?

[ORAC]

Depends if the Turks are looking for a casus belli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli), and who is willing to support them.

[glojo]

Good point but will there be any volunteers?

My own thoughts are there is very little chance of that happening and Russia needs that warm water port. Turkey has now learnt a very expensive lesson and how very sad that two people might have had to pay the ultimate price for this act of brinkmanship.

[hetfield]

very sad that two people might have had to pay the ultimate price for this act of brinkmanship.Donovan - The Universal Soldier [Very Good(+) quality] (Live, 1965) - YouTube

Turn your speaker on and listen...

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

To attack what? To achieve what? For what purpose?

Turkey's real agenda?

Turkey blames Syria for supporting Kurdish rebels, inches closer to military action - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper (http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/turkey-blames-syria-for-supporting-kurdish-rebels-inches-closer-to-military-action-1.420424)

[CargoOne]

pr00ne

To attack what? To achieve what? For what purpose?

No idea, but exactly the same was done in Libya a few month ago. Now everything is the same except small details - Syria don't have enough oil to support export. Maybe JDAMs are too expensive for this kind of country then...

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

The incident as viewed by the turkish side (source of graphics = turkish air force radar) :
TÜRK UÇA (http://webtv.hurriyet.com.tr/2/34134/20834778/1/turk-ucaginin-dusurulmesini-grafiklerle-anlatti.aspx)

(edit: let the video play, I don't understand turk, but graphics are legended in english if you're a bit patient)

[LS-4]

Looks like Pantsyr-1 was the culprit.

How reliable is that website anyway?

[racedo]

Turkey allowing SFA to base itself there and be supplied by Saudi's so lots more to add into the mix.

At this point in time a calm down is more appropriate but whether that will happen is unknown.

[salad-dodger]

but whether that will happen is unknown

very insightful

S-D

[LS-4]

There hasn't been any word on the ELT, has it?

By the way, does anyone know if the type is equipped with an FDR of some sort, and if so, does it record RWR data?

[GreenKnight121]

LS-4
"......we were not allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship......"
Not in my day. Must have been a different Cold War.


LS-4 has his location listed as Canada... they played by different rules than the Aussie/US forces.

[BEagle]

There was one 35 Sqn Vulcan captain who declared war on the Russians. One day the Kiev was passing close to the UK in international waters; our secondary role was 'maritime radar reconnaissance' (aka 'boat spotting'), so off he went full of aggression, having entered in the auth sheets the words:

Locate and identify enemy shipping

He then proceded to bring back several shots of the Kiev taken at slow speed on the F95, with his overflight taking a number of frames.....and he flew rather more than a single pass. Surprised Russian sailors could be seen staring skyward, wondering WTF was going on.

After they'd recovered from the shock, the MRR cell showed our warry hero the JSP regulations for flight in the vicinity of Russian ships, all of which he had comprehensively broken. The auth sheet entry was removed and destroyed, the boss 'had a word' and the rest of us merely agreed that this particular captain was barking...

[TEEEJ]

The Syrian Foreign Ministry spokesman has revealed that the aircraft was downed by anti-aircraft fire and not by a radar-guided missile.

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Syrian air defenses had to react immediately to a Turkish jet flying at 100 meters altitude inside Syrian airspace in what was "a clear breach of Syrian sovereignty", Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi said on Monday.

"Syria reacted to the breach," he told a news conference about the incident on Friday. "We had to react immediately, even if the plane was Syrian we would have shot it down," he added.

Makdissi said the jet -- a Turkish airforce F4 Phantom -- was shot down by anti-aircraft fire, not by a radar-guided missile. Despite the incident Syria remains committed to a "neighborly relationship" with Turkey, Makdissi said.

News Headlines (http://www.cnbc.com/id/47944631)

[Red Line Entry]

To be pedantic, a Syrian Ministry spokesman has claimed, rather than revealed. Truth is the first casualty and all that...

I do love the 'even if it were Syrian we would have shot it down' bit - clearly, a kill's a kill!

[sandozer]

Not very judging by the latest "news" it was shot down by AA fire less than 1.5 miles from Syria.

[Lonewolf_50]

ORAC The point being that, in shooting it down in international airspace, Syria conducted an act of war to which Turkey is entitled to respond and to ask for help from the rest of NATO. The total destruction of all Syrian SAW and AD airfields might be an apposite response.
or, a valid defense of territorial waters/airspace. Granted, most nations operate under the protocol of warning before shooting, but maybe the Syrians are in the right here.


krakatoa--
"......we were not allowed within 5 miles of a Soviet warship......"
Not in my day. Must have been a different Cold War.

Heh. I was well within 5 miles numerous times. Good fun. Got mooned a few times for my troubles.

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Syrian air defenses had to react immediately to a Turkish jet flying at 100 meters altitude inside Syrian airspace in what was "a clear breach of Syrian sovereignty", Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdissi said on Monday.
"Syria reacted to the breach," he told a news conference about the incident on Friday. "We had to react immediately, even if the plane was Syrian we would have shot it down," he added.
Makdissi said the jet -- a Turkish airforce F4 Phantom -- was shot down by anti-aircraft fire, not by a radar-guided missile. Despite the incident Syria remains committed to a "neighborly relationship" with Turkey, Makdissi said.

This looks like a variation on the rule "squawk or die." Back in the 80's, in the Med, off the coast of Lebanon, that was roughly the rule I had to adhere to when launching off of our ship's deck. If Mode IV was not responding, I put me arse back down on the deck until our crypto was up and sweet. This was as defense against our own people and their surface to air tools, both missiles and that fun little robot known as CIWS / R2D2. An ounce of prevention, and all that.

Red Line:
To be pedantic, a Syrian Ministry spokesman has claimed, rather than revealed. Truth is the first casualty and all that... I do love the 'even if it were Syrian we would have shot it down' bit - clearly, a kill's a kill! So that's where those F-15 pilots ended up, the ones who shot down the Black Hawks. They are now consultants to the Syrian MoD. :E

As to Turkey's response to Syria, and Syria harboring Kurds ... the Turks have ventured into Northern Iraq more than once since the Americans showed up, and since the various Iraqi governments have been in place. All to hammer down on one Kurdish faction or another.

My point is: Turks are not at war with Iraq. Turkish troops running about in Syria chasing Kurds need not be a cause for war, but the Syrian government would have to be on board (which IIRC the Iraqi government was for a while). The odds of Assad and friends being supportive? Low to nil.

[LS-4]

LS-4 has his location listed as Canada...

You might be mistaking me for Fox3WheresMyBanana..

During the Cold War, the only wings I had were those of my diapers.

[tonker]

Video claiming to be people on a beach watching the F4 being shot down..

LiveLeak.com - People on the Syrian beach witnessing the shot down of the Turkish F4 jet by the Syrian army

[dead_pan]

Ah Liveleak, don't ya just love it. The home of videos deemed to be too rubbish/offensive for You Tube.

As far as I can make out a couple of trigger happy triple-A emplacements lose off a few rounds at what for all we know could be an errant seagull. A kill is dutifully claimed, prompting enrestrained celebrations from members of the Al-Assad Appreciation Society who were enoying a few hours of well-earned R&R after a busy few weeks killing unarmed women and children.

[ARXW]

Lonewolf50 got to the point me thinks. If anything it is the Syrians who should be complaining!

1. You send out an RF-4 inside another country's national airspace, which is the most hostile action there is, bar a full blown bombing sortie with live ordnance against a country engaged in (civil) war and who is already fairly hostile to you anyway.

2. Said RF-4 is is flying in at 100 ft, high rate of knots well within national airspace (even the Turks own account suggests a tiny nav error resulting in...5 mins within Syrian airspace...5 mins?? This is no error! Not to mention other reports suggesting the kill occuring a mile or so off the beach).

3. The RF-4 was obviously on a mission to assist rebel forces through photographic intelligence assistance as per Turkey's interests in the region. Fail that it may have been on a SyAD system combat readiness test flight; unlikely - but in this case clearly the Syrians passed that test! The mere idiocy of the CPM if that were the case makes this a least likely proposition.

4. When you act like a bully you should take into account the likelihood of getting punched in the face as well, which is why the Turks will take this blow like men this time and keep the rhetoric down a bit unlike the...

5. Gaza flotilla stupidity where they again acted like bullies. Yes the Israelis did seem that they acted like bullies too in that instance and they also got punched (quite literally) in the face. It was of course Turkey who carried on whining about it and kept the rhetoric volume way up for some time. I think they are beginning to learn something with their newest infraction...

6. The Turks were much more used to "civilised: reactions from the Greeks whereby they'd overfly Greek airspace thousands of times over a number of decades without such trigger-happy response. A few times they did get kicked in the teeth such as when an F-16 pilot of theirs became overly excited 1v1 with a Greek Mirage 2000 and received a Magic 2 up the tailpipe for his confidence resulting in him dying a fiery death while his backseater was primetime television celeb for a day being treated at a Greek hospital. In that case the possibility of a war with Greece made both sides sweep the incident under the carpet as yet another technical malfunction only to be revealed by both sides a few years later...

I'm sure the Turkish pilots would be highly annoyed at the their leadership in this instance (were they to be found alive which they quite obviously will not). Act like a bully - expect to get kicked in the teeth. Should that happen, at least take it like a man, even if the person you tried to bully in his own home is a well known stinker!

[airwaverider]

More information gets released by Turkey!


BBC NEWS - Syria shot at second plane, Turkey says (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18586645)

[Marcantilan]

According to Turkish Deputy PM, "plane was hit by a heat-seeking laser-guided missile"

Heat seeking or laser guided? Syria has laser-guided SAMs? (like Bofors RBS-70?)

Regards!

[NutLoose]

Don't you just love live leak

Later on 24 June 2012, the jet was found 1300 km under the water

Considering the Marianas Trench is just short of 11 KM in depth at its deepest, someone has got their Maths wrong.

Hope the crew are found alive.

[Heathrow Harry]

The Syrian reaction also sends a short message to people in the West who are thinking of a no-fly zone -i.e this ain't Libya, we are ready

but generally speaking pissing off the Turks has never been a wise move

[ORAC]

Syria: Turkey issues border warning as it condemns 'heinous' attack on jet (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9356214/Syria-Turkey-issues-border-warning-as-it-condemns-heinous-attack-on-jet.html)

Turkey's armed forces have toughened their rules of engagement in response to Syria’s “heinous” destruction of an air force jet, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister has announced.

Mr Erdogan delivered an emotional response to the incident last Friday when an F-4 Phantom from the Turkish air force was shot down.

“We did not receive a single warning note from Syria,” he said. “They acted without [warning]. This is a hostile act.” As a result, the prime minister said that Turkey’s armed forces now stood on heightened alert. “The rules of engagement of the Turkish Armed Forces have changed given this new development," said Mr Erdogan. “Any military element that approaches the Turkish border from Syria by posing a security risk and danger will be regarded as a threat and treated as a military target.”

Addressing the ruling AK party in Ankara, the prime minister said the Phantom was an “unarmed reconnaissance jet” that was shot down inside “international airspace”. While Turkish officials concede that the F-4 briefly entered Syrian airspace, they say the crew immediately realised their mistake and changed course accordingly. Their aircraft was then struck by a missile when it was flying over the Mediterranean.

Mr Erdogan’s first response was cautious and he refrained from denouncing Syria on Friday. In the speech on Monday, however, the prime minister warned that this “should not be perceived as a weakness”. He added that Turkey, a member of Nato, would expect the solidarity of its allies...............

[Lonewolf_50]

A few comments:
Harry:

The Syrian reaction also sends a short message to people in the West who are thinking of a no-fly zone -i.e this ain't Libya, we are ready ...
but generally speaking pissing off the Turks has never been a wise move

:ok:
According to Turkish Deputy PM, "plane was hit by a heat-seeking l@ser-guided missile" Heat seeking or l@ser guided? Syria has l@ser-guided SAMs? (like Bofors RBS-70?)

What, they used a Hellfire? :E

Technically, I think you could argue that Hellfire, with it's semi active laser homing, is looking for a "hot spot" and thus is "heat seeking" though technically "laser guided" as a method of heat seeking. I'd never heard of it being used for AD roles. Could work, I suppose, if you had a good desig team and shot at helicopters ... I suspect someone has tried that out on a test range somewhere ... Off Topic, never mind.

ARXW: A bit less hyperbole, if you please, though you make some fair points.
1. You send out an RF-4 inside another country's national airspace, which is the most hostile action there is, bar a full blown bombing sortie with live ordnance against a country engaged in (civil) war and who is already fairly hostile to you anyway.
I think you overstate the case. Flying a warplane into another's airspace is a serious matter, if done without permission. But it isn't the most hostile by a long shot.
As to "most hostile," the US did a lot of overflights of the USSR with intel birds in the 40s and 50s, up until about the time Powers got shot down in his U2. These were not "the most hostile action there is," but they were certainly violations of USSR airspace, and thus fouls worthy of serious response ... which the occasional shoot down of US Recon planes is evidence of. Powers wasn't the first.

2. Said RF-4 is is flying in at 100 ft, high rate of knots well within national airspace (even the Turks own account suggests a tiny nav error resulting in...5 mins within Syrian airspace...5 mins?? This is no error! Not to mention other reports suggesting the kill occuring a mile or so off the beach).
The facts on this seem to still be up in the air. You seem to be operating under confirmation bias, in wanting to fully believe one side. That said, I agree with you that if the jet strayed into Syrian airspace, or if it went in on purpose, the Syrian's could not know INTENTION. They also could not know that it was unarmed, could they?

So, they classified by fire. Their airspace, a fair cop, sez I.

But ask yourself: Why is RF-4 flying at 100 ft on an INTEL collection mission? (Maybe to test the limits of Syrian AD? Doubt that, but possible).
I'd like a few more facts regarding what actually happened before I come to a conclusion. The Turks may be holding back some facts on purpose to obfuscate the mission ... for their own reasons.
3. It was obviously on a mission to assist rebel forces with phot recon ...
AT 100 FEET? No, I don't think so. Photo Recon mission profiles I am familiar with aren't done that way. They may, however, have had as part of their mission intel collection that would be passed to the rebels later on.

I'd bet with you on that one.

Also agree with you on the Turkish pilots perhaps being annoyed with their higher command.

[Willard Whyte]

According to Turkish Deputy PM, "plane was hit by a heat-seeking l@ser-guided missile" Heat seeking or l@ser guided? Syria has l@ser-guided SAMs? (like Bofors RBS-70?) I suspect the solution is rather straightforward.

The politician mis-spoke the briefing given to him by a member of the military.

IR homing with a laser fuse seems the simplest, most logical, conclusion based on the brief, although I rather suspect it was a Pantsi(y)r S-1:

Newly-supplied Russian Pantsyr-1 anti-air missile used to down Turkish warplane (http://www.debka.com/article/22112/Newly-supplied-Russian-Pantsyr-1-anti-air-missile-used-to-down-Turkish-warplane)

In addition the first report stated the RF-4 was at 100m, not 100'.

I have also read that the jet was downed 13km of the coast, not that it was 13km under the water.

[GreenKnight121]

Substitute "over water" for "under water" in that statement. :ok:

[dead_pan]

Hmm, not the wisest of moves, stooging along the coast well within Syria's internally recognised territorial waters. I doubt the Turks will be forthcoming with how many times they've done this before. Similarly, I doubt the Syrians will be forthcoming with details of exactly who was manning their new toy (were any KBP employees on-hand providing after-sales technical support?).

[Lonewolf_50]

Good points, Willard. 13 km from the shore, if that is the reference, is well within the 12 nm territorial zone, for sure. (And IIRC, well within a typical ADIZ ... )

@ dead pan: :ok:

[racedo]

If its a recon jet you kind of worry that if it was being sent to "take some photos" you may end up with some beach photos of western tourists sans top if their navigation skills were that crap.

Got caught with hand in Cookie jar and now searching for a way out.

[henra]

IR homing with a laser fuse seems the simplest, most logical, conclusion based on the brief, although I rather suspect it was a Pantsi(y)r S-1:


Hmmm, I'm really not sure the crew of an S-1 would have been so trigger happy if there are still Russian instructors being involved in the operations of the S-1 as is being assumed.
From now on it is a safe bet that in case of any further minor incident Turkey / US / NATO / whomever will go hunting these things and I'm not so terribly convinced the Russians are so happy to die just because their customer has some axe to grind with their neighbour.
I would rather guess that this was an all syrian crewed asset to have done this.
It surely points to an increased level of emotional involvement, because the consequences are not yet to foresee, no matter if one considers the shoot down justified or not.
In any case it is a very drastic way of communicating the unhappiness with the intrusion. Normally I would expect a political statement along the lines: 'We are seriously unhappy with you intruding our airspace, please don't do that again'.
The strange thing is that this lowers the threshold for some kind of retaliation which cannot be in Syria's interest.
If would have to venture a guess I would say Syrian AA crew gone wild, carried away with the mission. Strategically rather not so clever.

[dead_pan]

Then again the Russians wouldn't object to their client sending a little reminder to the West regarding the practicalities of imposing a no-fly zone, as a previous poster suggested. It may also have been a bit of payback for cancelling that ship's insurance policy.

The Turks are faffing around a bit with their retaliation. I wonder if they're going to let Syria have this one and put it down to experience?

[henra]

Then again the Russians wouldn't object to their client sending a little reminder to the West regarding the practicalities of imposing a no-fly zone, as a previous poster suggested.

The russian politicians might be only mildly unhappy about this but I can't see emotionally only losely involved individuals (It is probably a bit easier if you are 'defending' your own country) sitting in these coffins to be extremely keen on duelling with HARMs and Tomahawks.


The Turks are faffing around a bit with their retaliation. I wonder if they're going to let Syria have this one and put it down to experience?

I tend to agree. However Turkey might take it as an opportunity to strike back when it seems to fit by just another small provocation. Syria has had their shot. They won't have another for free.
Next time will be expensive (Loss of signifcant parts of Air Defense and/or Air Force).

[Willard Whyte]

Golly, I'd hoped not to seem as though I'd donned a tinfoil hat, but...

The Pantsir allegedly guarded the Syrian reactor that was destroyed by the Israelis...

The Israelis disabled/jammed the system prior to/during the attack...

The Turkish RF-4s had their kit upgraded by the Israelis...

The Russians need to demonstrate that one of their newest systems is worthy of export, thus have a vested interest in demonstrating any upgrades and/or fixes as necessary...

What better way to do so by hitting what could be a regular recce mission, incorporating Israeli technology, and letting the blame lie with a discredited regime...

The Russians have been pretty good at 'deniable' operations over the years, they have on occasion made the CIA and SIS look like rank amateurs...


Just supposing, that's all...

[reynoldsno1]

The Turks have now made the statement that a number of Syrian helicopters have "strayed" across the border at times - the implication seems to be clear that the next "stray" may not be "straying" back ....

[Midnight Blue]

I am just remembering this incident (link), and watching now, how the US government, that did not even apologizes in 1988 for shooting down a civilian airplane in international airspace, behaves against the Syrians for defending themselves against an unknown fast and low intruder... They already have apologized.

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)

[Hueymeister]

Any news on the crew?

[jcjeant]

Hi,

The Jerusalem Post:
Downing of Turkish jet reveals Syria (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=275043)
And
Israel Defense | Russia Helps Syria to Upgrade Radar (http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=514&ArticleID=988)
Any news on the crew? Drone ? (dismissed :8 )
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/488684-turkish-f4-vanishes-6.html#post7264879
The Final Mission: The USAF’s QF-4 Target Drones | Photography*| Fence Check (http://www.fencecheck.com/content/index.php?title=The_Final_Mission:_The_USAF%92s_QF-4_Target_Drones)
BAE Systems to convert F-4 Phantom II jets into target drones - Military & Aerospace Electronics (http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/print/volume-18/issue-6/news/bae-systems-to-convert-f-4-phantom-ii-jets-into-target-drones.html)

Air Force's New 'Killer Zombie' Drone (Updated) | Danger Room | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/10/air-forces-new/)

[BEagle]

If it really was a BWoS drone, it would be hardly surprising if it managed to get itself lost......


I doubt that it was though.

[Willard Whyte]

I am just remembering this incident (link), and watching now, how the US government, that did not even apologizes in 1988 for shooting down a civilian airplane in international airspace, behaves against the Syrians for defending themselves against an unknown fast and low intruder... They already have apologized.

I'm sure we could all drag up events to support our long-standing political proclivities.

[TEEEJ]

Helmets found as search continues for missing pilots

Helmets belonging to the two missing pilots of the downed Turkish jet were found alongside parts of the plane wreckage, Transportation Minister Binali Yıldırım said, according to daily Hürriyet.

The search for the missing pilots continues, Yıldırım said.

Two pairs of boots, also believed to belong to the missing pilots were found several days before, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan had said during a meeting with opposition leaders.

There were no signs of parachutes near the wreckage and the pilots may not have used their ejection seats, according to information provided by the prime minister.

Turkish naval and air forces have been attempting to locate Capt. Gökhan Ertan and Lt. Hüseyin Aksoy since their jet was hit by Syrian forces in international waters on June 22.

LOCAL - Helmets found as search continues for missing pilots (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/helmets-found-as-search-continues-for-missing-pilots.aspx?pageID=238&nID=24171&NewsCatID=341)

[Lonewolf_50]

There were no signs of parachutes near the wreckage and the pilots may not have used their ejection seats, according to information provided by the prime minister.

Methinks that if they'd used their ejection seats, the Turkish Navy would not still be looking for them. Or, the Syrians would have already found them and much bruhaha would have already ensued.

If this was in fact a low level mission (100 feet or 100 meters MSL as suggested above) and a missile hit them, it might have been all over very quickly -- faster than a reaction to grab the face curtain/seat handle and eject.
Maybe, an ejection with unfavorable geometry ... lots of gruesome possiblities there. :(

RIP, gents (Capt. Gökhan Ertan and Lt. Hüseyin Aksoy). :(

Sorry to see you go. At least you died while doing what you loved to do: flying a Phantom. *salutes*

[Midnight Blue]

@ Willard Whyte:


My political proclivity is, to avoid war. So I oppose people (or states), that want to own the right to start a war at any place of the world they want (Irak, Lebanon, Libya...) and then tell the attacked ones, that defending themselves would be illegal.

So for my opinion, it is better to keep out of Syria, which actually HAS a civil war and not escalate the situation.

If the Turks need more airspace for their training-flights and move over the Syrian border, the Syrians could relocate their (of course unarmed) training flights into a remote corner of the Israelian airspace, to find out, if they are welcome there. :hmm:
The reaction of the western world (including of my own country) would be interesting.

[ORAC]

NYT: Turkey Deploys Antiaircraft Units Along Syrian Border (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/world/middleeast/turkey-deploys-antiaircraft-units-along-syrian-border.html?pagewanted=all)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/06/29/world/middleeast/29syria/29syria-articleLarge.jpg

ISTANBUL — As diplomats prepared for a weekend meeting to revive stalled Syria peace efforts, regional tensions swirling around the 16-month-old crisis ticked higher on Thursday as Turkey said it was stationing antiaircraft batteries on the common border following the downing of one of its warplanes...........

Turkey’s TRT state broadcaster showed convoys of military trucks carrying antiaircraft guns, a multiple rocket launchers and troops toward several border areas near the southern province of Hatay, where thousands of Syrians have taken refuge from the increasingly bloody insurrection against Mr. Assad’s government. Others were deployed further east near the border settlement of Suruc, joining units close to the frontier post at Mursitpinar, TRT said. Reinforcements were also moved in from the coastal town of Iskenderun.

The deployment came two days after Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey had revised its military rules of engagement toward Syria, warning Mr. Assad that “every military element that approaches the Turkish border from Syria in a manner that constitutes a security risk or danger would be considered as a threat and would be treated as a military target.”.............

[LS-4]

Midnight Blue,

My political proclivity is, to avoid war. So I oppose people (or states), that want to own the right to start a war at any place of the world they want (Irak, Lebanon, Libya...) and then tell the attacked ones, that defending themselves would be illegal.

I probably don't have to tell you this, but the intervention in Libya was properly sanctioned (as far as I know). Did anyone accuse the Gaddafi government of illegal action against the coalition / NATO?

So for my opinion, it is better to keep out of Syria, which actually HAS a civil war and not escalate the situation.

And right now it seems that key elements of NATO and the UN agree with you.

[racedo]

I probably don't have to tell you this, but the intervention in Libya was properly sanctioned (as far as I know). Did anyone accuse the Gaddafi government of illegal action against the coalition / NATO?


No fly zone was sanctioned but NATO interpreted it to mean anything they wanted including arms drops.

[Lonewolf_50]

Can we not rehash the Libyan thing in a Syria thread? Please?

[Willard Whyte]

Well, anyone can register and post. So not in vain hope, no.

[ORAC]

Turkey asks Nato about a no-fly zone (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/100168059/turkey-asks-nato-about-a-no-fly-zone-as-syria-makes-it-clear-that-its-ready-to-fight-dirty/)

According to a US government source privy to the Nato meeting called by Turkey on Tuesday, Ankara has requested that the alliance draw up contingency plans for a no-fly zone to protect Turkish territory in the event of further acts of Syrian aggression. Turkey invoked Article IV of the Nato charter, which calls on the alliance to “consult” together whenever one of them deems that the “territorial integrity, political independence or security” of any member is threatened, after Syrian air defence systems shot down a Turkish F-4 Phantom jet that was conducting a training exercise. The Turks say that the plane dipped briefly into Syrian air space but was targeted and destroyed 13 nautical miles from the Syrian coast, in international air space. A rescue plane dispatched to search for the pilots was also apparently fired upon.

“The Turks purposefully left it vague and didn’t provide many specifics,” the source said. “But they also didn’t give [Nato] members a heads-up before the meeting that they’d be asking for this and everyone was surprised.”

All members have now taken Turkey’s request back to their capitals. The alliance is meant to reconvene in the coming days.....

[LS-4]

No fly zone was sanctioned but NATO interpreted it to mean anything they wanted including arms drops.

I can comment a bit on that, but if you want to we should pursue it in a suitable thread.

[NutLoose]

Be wary you sometimes get press fishing for a story.... Nuff said

[LS-4]

No worries.

[LS-4]

Doubts Cast on Turkish Account of Jet Incident - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304830704577497081567553846.html?mod=googlen ews_wsj)

U.S. intelligence indicates that a Turkish warplane shot down by Syrian forces was most likely hit by shore-based antiaircraft guns while it was inside Syrian airspace, American officials said, a finding in tune with Syria's account and at odds with Turkey.

[TEEEJ]

E/V Nautilus heading for search area

NAUTILUS - Vessel's Details and Current Position - 6711883 - 376404000 (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=376404000)

Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=376404000&zoom=10&olddate=lastknown)

E/V Nautilus Starts To Search For The Shot Down Turkish Plane « (http://turkishnavy.net/2012/07/02/ev-nautilus-starts-to-search-for-the-shot-down-turkish-plane/)

[Efe Cem Elci]

The Nautilus found parts of the wreckage including the deceased crew members spread out around 8.4 nm off the Syrian shore.

Pictures of the salvaged parts as well as personal belongings of the pilots can be seen on the official page of the Turkish Armed Forces: Genelkurmay Baþkanlýðý Resmi Kurumsal Ýnternet Sitesidir - Anasayfa - Turkish General Staff Official Web Site - Main Page (http://www.tsk.tr/3_basin_yayin_faaliyetleri/3_4_tsk_haberler/2012/tsk_haberler_83.htm)

[Lonewolf_50]

:(

8.4 nm seems within Syrian waters ... I wonder if they were navigating off of INS, radar, GPS, or something else.

If primarily radar navigating, it is possible that a slightly wrong radar return used as reference could have led the crew to believe they were still outside the territorial limit when they weren't.

I was on a ship in the Adriatic in 198_ (something or other) heading south. Our orders were to conduct freedom of navigation ops, which meant "kissing" the 12 mile limit along the Albanian coast as we headed south.

Hazy day. Visual marks planned by the navigator obscured. Used radar nav, and DR mostly, but a few visual marks that could be seen were tried as they came into view ... all of a sudden, the Captain ordered a sharp right turn and all ahead full. Away from the coast.

What had happened? Well, as was discovered in the inquiry the Captain engaged in after we got well to sea, the terrain that the QMs and OSs were getting radar ranges from were not exactly on the shoreline, but a mile or two inland. A bearing line off of one of the distant landmarks ahead and to the left of us told the captain that he had crossed inside 12 nm, so his quick reaction to unscrew that situation made the error less than it might have been had he not turned right. He was a bit sheepish in the report to the destroyer squadron commander, but since bad news does not improve with age, he felt he ought to fess up. Good thing he did, the info got to "higher" before an inquiry from State did.

For the Phantom crew: when hauling about at X hundred knots, rather than 12 or 15 knots as our ship was, a slight error in nav from a return (from a feature not quite where you had planned it) could result in a larger error than our ship had.

One possible explanation for how the Phantom ended up there.

[Green Guard]

I wonder if they were navigating off of INS, radar, GPS, or something else.
good question, as we all know gps can be manipulated over certain area...

orac
…..I'll point out that, in attacking a NATO nation Syria has liberated them from having to gain UN Security Council approval to respond.

Depends if the Turks are looking for a casus belli, and who is willing to support them.

Looks like all is going so far to suit your sick wish

[skridlov]

I hold no brief for the Syrian regime, which is appalling: like the Saudi regime; like the Bahreini regime - add your own examples, they aren't exactly in short supply even within the limited area which we refer to as the Middle East. However this particular conflict has some very murky facets. My own opinion, which I won't attempt to enlarge on, is that it's a key component of the current undeclared war on Iran and in that respect the people of Syria's desire for representative government is being cynically manipulated.

I have every sympathy for the lost Turkish pilots and those close to them - they were, after all, only doing what they were obliged to do as service personnel. It's hard to know exactly what happened in terms of international law, however let's give Turkey the benefit of the doubt and assume that their aircraft at no time violated Syrian airspace and that there was no provocative intent.

It's worth pointing out that despite this proviso Turkey itself is unquestionably engaging in aggression against Syria by allowing its territory to be used for the insertion of arms into Syria on behalf of the various anti-government factions. The plural is significant here because those wishing to see the overthrow of the Assad regime should be careful what they wish for. As if this mistake hasn't been made so often recently that we haven't been warned.

We have short memories. In February 1982 the Syrian government suppressed a revolt by the Muslim Brotherhood based on the town of Hama. This operation, which barely raised a squeak of protest from Western governments, entailed razing a large area of the city, quite literally, to the ground. The massacre has been variously estimated to number between 10,000 and 40,000 men, women and children. The higher figure accords with what the Syrian officer in charge of the operation, President Hafez al Assad's brother Rifaat al Assad (uncle of the present incumbent Bashar al Assad) has himself estimated. And he should know.

So where is this mass murderer now? Why, living in the lap of luxury in London! Where else?

Whilst they're searching for the fundamental particles of the universe at CERN, they should keep an eye out for the Hypocrisy Particle, it seems to be a fundamental component of the world we live in.

Roy

[500N]

"Hypocrisy Particle"

The one that is split between the perm members of the security council
and the UN, destined never to come together or be aligned in the
one place at the one time.

.

[Lonewolf_50]

skridlov: I have a hard time agreeing with you on the violation issue IF (and I do mean IF) the 8.4 nm figure is correct.

Territorial limit is 12 nm.

[Efe Cem Elci]

Keep in mind that just because the aircraft was found at 8.4nm out doesn't mean that is where it was when it got hit. However, since the pilots didn't report any problems or incoming and did not eject, the possibility of them getting hit and trying to control the plane in radio silence and riding it all the way down (and into Syrian airspace) and not ejecting seems quite far off. We'll know more details (or at least some things that someone wants John Q. Public to know) once the larger parts of the wreckage are brought up off the sea floor.

[glojo]

Keep in mind that just because the aircraft was found at 8.4nm out doesn't mean that is where it was when it got hit. However, since the pilots didn't report any problems or incoming and did not eject, the possibility of them getting hit and trying to control the plane in radio silence and riding it all the way down (and into Syrian airspace) and not ejecting seems quite far off. We'll know more details (or at least some things that someone wants John Q. Public to know) once the larger parts of the wreckage are brought up off the sea floor. Surely the only snippet that might be accurate is where the wreckage is located?? Do we know there was no communications from the F4? do we know the mission the aircraft was on, its route, its brief?

[BOAC]

If it was hit by a modern missile it probably fell where it was struck. They have a habit of cutting planes in half.

[son of brommers]

No explosives found on downed Turkish jet | News24 (http://www.news24.com/World/News/No-explosives-found-on-downed-Turkish-jet-20120712)

[Efe Cem Elci]

Surely the only snippet that might be accurate is where the wreckage is located?? Do we know there was no communications from the F4? do we know the mission the aircraft was on, its route, its brief?

We know what we have been told by the military, so take that with a pinch of salt...

Not sure if this is still the official position but it used to be a week ago: Unarmed recon aircraft on training run, strays into Syrian airspace, warned by base to return to Turkish airspace, does so and communication is lost completely.

By the way, autopsies on both pilots show cause of death to be extreme trauma from the aircraft impacting the water at high speed with no signs of any shrapnel on their bodies or any wound suffered from a potential ground-to-air or air-to-air attack.

[FODPlod]

Efe Cem Elc - Thank you. Sincere condolences to the families, friends and colleagues of the deceased aircrew.

[glojo]

It is awkward discussing an incident if folks have passionate views on the topic but if someone threatens you with a gun, do you assume it is not loaded?

If an unauthorised military aircraft invades or accidentally flies into our airspace when our country is at a high state of security alert, then do we assume it is unarmed and has no hostile intent? Is there any way we can tell it is unarmed? Bank robbers get shot when they wave around toy guns.....

Unfortunately for Turkey their aircraft entered the airspace of a nation that is having major internal problems and that aircraft was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Brave men lost their lives . Respect

[Wrathmonk]

Unarmed recon aircraft on training run, strays into Syrian airspace, warned by base to return to Turkish airspace, does so and communication is lost completely

If you look at the video clip on post #70 it would suggest the following.

1142 : RF4 enters Syrian airspace (hdg NE-ish I think) at 200'.
1144 : Turkish Radar alerts RF4 to the airspace incursion.
1147 : RF4 exits Syrian airspace at an unknown height.
1150 : RF4 requests to refly the profile and asks for positive radar control from Turkish Radar to avoid border incursion again. Profile then appears to be flown on a reciprocal hdg to that previously flown at 1142..
1158 : Last point of contact.

The slides, provided by the Turkish military, states the RF4 was hit 13 nm off the Syrian coast, then turned toward Syria and crashed 8.4 nm from the coastline.

The slides are in English, the commentary in Turkish (I don't think the commentary adds much more than translation but I leave it to a better linguist than me!!).