RAF Aircrew Re-streaming

[NDW]

Good morning all,

Just a few questions that sprang to mind after watching 'Combat Pilot'.

If a Pilot were to fail Basic F.J training for instance whilst at Valley, how does the re-streaming process work?

One candidate on the programme was re-streamed to M.E, I think the Tristar.

Presumably, they could also be streamed to Rotary?

Would the same process occur with NCA? If a candidate does not make the rotary side, would he/she then re-stream to M.E?

Apologies for the long winded question(s).

Regards,
NDW.

[Case One]

I cannot comment on the current situation, but whatever other replies you receive, bear the following in mind.

It is always subject to change in accordance with the needs of the Service and the whim of the Government. Over the years it has changed several times, and people are always caught out.

[Wyler]

I think each case would be judged on merit i.e why did the individual fail? Is he/she better suited to another platform or are they just unsuitable for this task-period. There is no 'one size fits all'.
Also, as stated, it depends on the needs of the service at that point. I have seen some very capable people binned over the last few years due to lack of slots rather than lack of ability.
Good luck

[oldbeefer]

If a basic lack of captaincy is the reason for suspension, he/she would be unlikely to go rotary. ME may be an option if the board consider that time as a co is likely to lead to an improvement. If purely coordination or handling skills, restreaming unlikely.

[HaveQuick2]

"Also, as stated, it depends on the needs of the service at that point. I have seen some very capable people binned over the last few years due to lack of slots rather than lack of ability."

Does that then also indicate that perhaps some less than capable people have managed to gain their wings when there was a desperate need to fill slots some years?

[GalleyTeapot]

On the NCA side it used to be the case that failing "multi engine" as an AEOp you would usually be offered LM ( but not always) although I know of at least one lucky sole that failed LM training and ended up AEOp Acoustics!
Overall though it depened on what the individual had failed on, some get offered re-streaming, some get sent back to trade (if their trade will take them back) others get sent back to civvie street.

[Timelord]

All of the above may well have been true, but given the current over supply of aircrew of all descriptions I would now expect a failure of any training course to lead to a rapid exit from the service.

Might all be different in a year or two of course.

[Basil]

Does that then also indicate that perhaps some less than capable people have managed to gain their wings when there was a desperate need to fill slots some years?
Absolutely, old boy. Thank you, USSR :ok: (and thanks for keeping it real, Mr B :p )

[Laarbruch72]

although I know of at least one lucky sole


Sounds fishy to me.

[ShyTorque]

although I know of at least one lucky sole that failed LM training and ended up AEOp Acoustics!

But had he only floundered a little, or made a complete cods of it?

But seriously, I know of one pilot who was deemed unsuitable for FJs, was re-streamed rotary, failed that and later surprisingly turned up as a ME pilot.

Unfortunately, he killed himself and six other crew members with him when he crashed in a very high profile way, during an official flying display. :(

[teeteringhead]

But seriously, I know of one pilot who was deemed unsuitable for FJs, was re-streamed rotary, failed that and later surprisingly turned up as a ME pilot.
... indeed so. It was I who chopped him from rotary, and initially was not minded to recommend restream to ME. With the individual (literally) crying on my shoulder, I eventually did not rule out a restream in my recommendations, but didn't think it would happen ....

..... supply and demand and all that (as stated above), but sometimes I still wonder what if ...... :(

[6foottanker]

Can't comment on NCOs, but the guy from combat pilot who was chopped ended up and is still on Hercs, and all of the 6 of us who went at the same time fortunately managed to restream onto multis or rotary.

We asked the question at our interviews with the Staish, someone did some paperwork, someone else made a decision and within 6 weeks I was at groundschool for my new stream. We were very fortunate that there was some spare capacity in the system at the time. As far as I know, all of us who went multis are still flying in the RAF. At least one is a Sqn Ldr.

That was about 6 months before the Jetstream went out of service, creating a massive backlogue, whereupon some of our fellow Valley/OCU dropouts ended up leaving or retreading as navs. And of course before the fiasco of Linton grads getting forced to restream/out the door.

Oldbeefer's correct, they look for potential captaincy skills, ability etc. Obviously, some people are chopped for pure lack of ability, some just can't handle single seat but may be excellent in a multi-crew environment.

Now, for Cod's sake get on with it!

[Pontius Navigator]

I have served on the relevant training sub-committees.

As stated the Service come first. Essentially aircrew were all selected for their suitability for FJ. At a particular point in training some were streamed ME as they were deemed less suitable for FJ. Some lesser candidates continued on a FJ stream on a make or break process.

Those that were subsequently chopped were unlikely to be restreamed ME or RW. If there were vacancies in other branches, essentially the non-aptitude roles and those not requiring specialist qualifications, then they may, assuming suitable PQs, be offered rebranching.

If there were no suitable vacancies then their services would be deemed no longer required.

[Fareastdriver]

Even if they got their wings they were not guaranteed for life. I have known a couple of newbies tossed off a squadron and losing them.

[Pontius Navigator]

FED is quite right. The Training Committee had oversight of all ab initio aircrew through training, through the OCU, until they had been on the sqn for 6 months or until they achieved an operational category.

The oversight was also extended to other aircrew under going OCU courses later on in their careers.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I've been involved in the system, perhaps more recently than PN if his age is remotely accurate...!

There wasn't any definitive answer on what would happen to someone. If they were chopped from Linton or Valley, they'd have gone through a long process of warning paperwork, extra flying, and checks by senior supervisors.

When they still failed to make the standard, they'd be presented to a suspension board, chaired by a Sqn Ldr and staffed by a couple of Flt Lt QFIs who didn't generally have contact with the student. They'd take in all of his reports, including previous courses if necessary, and make a recommendation.

Depending on the reason someone failed, there might be reasons why they're suited to RW or ME or another branch entirely. I've seen students recommended for both other pilot streams, some recommended for nav, and others receive the recommendation that they don't go anywhere near an aircraft again.

The recommendations would go on to TG/22Gp via the Stn Cdr's endorsement, and then it was up to them. Streaming in the first place was down to service needs and availability, so the same process would be adhered to here. If there was space, and the recommendation made them sound like a good bet for RW/ME training, then they'd go there; better to have a guy with 80hrs Tutor, 140hrs Tucano and 50hrs Hawk start the training than someone with just 80hrs Tutor!

There was never a set agenda that said "no restreaming," but every time a student didn't get his first choice it set waves amongst the student body that that was now policy. It was difficult to convince them that they'd all get a fair shot if they failed. As a FJ QFI, it was sad to hear of capable students out of EFT putting ME as their first choice because they didn't want to run the risk of being chopped at Linton/Valley and getting nothing; they thought they'd probably pass ME, so best to go there direct!

[NutLoose]

But then again there was one ermm pilot that went from Rotary wing to Tonkas... Was the only one I knew that did, but it does show that it is or can be a two way process.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

It can be a 2-way street, but not often in the training system. I don't think it ever happened that someone got partly through ME or RW training to be told "we think you're too good for here, off you go to Linton!"

There are plenty of people who've started off in the RW/ME worlds and ended up flying FJ though, but normally via instructional work on the Tucano and/or Hawk.

[charliegolf]

But then again there was one ermm pilot that went from Rotary wing to Tonkas...

Nut, why 'ermm'? The Puma one I knew was not an 'ermm' pilot, but a bloody good one!

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

5F6B, very true what you say. You gave the nuts and bolts, I was covering more the higher level on the MOD committee.

The problem with assuming that you might get re-streamed is the much smaller requirements with far fewer, if any, jobs where a weak student can be brought on. The AD OCU used to be particularly robust with weak students.

[NutLoose]

CG we talking about PM?

[ShyTorque]

I think CG might mean a good mate of mine who also became a GW1 Buccaneer pilot then later became Wg Cdr RAFAT.

I taught him everything I knew. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

I know of several re-streams but these were usually because the individuals concerned had an absolutely burning ambition to do the other thing and not because they were not successful in their original roles. The system had just streamed them that way possibly because there was not vacancy in what they really wanted to do.

I am thinking of a Canberra nav that became a Bucc pilot before going civvie. A Nimrod nav that became a very successful SAR man and a Shack pilot too.

[Fareastdriver]

I know a couple of RW pilots who went on to the Harrier.

[Tourist]

"a couple of newbies tossed off a squadron"

:uhoh::ooh:


They must have been exhausted!
Still, needs must to avoid the chop.....:(

[ShyTorque]

I even know a few crewmen who became helicopter pilots and one who became a first officer on Concorde....

[TurbineTooHot]

Tourist old son,

You owe me one keyboard and one mouse as I've just trashed mine with red wine, delivered through laughter......

:o

[oldbeefer]

And the Cpl engineer on Pumas who went on to be OC CFS(H).

[charliegolf]

I even know a few crewmen who became helicopter pilots and one who became a first officer on Concorde....

Was that old pubic head TS?

Nutloose: no, the guy I remember was GC, a Sqn Ldr on 230. Nice bloke. Someone said he passed the course by confounding the zoomies 'cos they never had a clue wtf he was going to do next!

CG

[SLLC]

Many of the RN's finest FJ pilots started life in Rotary and crossed over subsequently - SMAC309 if I remember rightly.

[magicmick]

I’m sure that I’ve seen recent(ish) phots of a Royal Machine Major flying a Harrier.

[KarlADrage]

A RM Major flew the last Harrier out of Wittering....

And the current OC BBMF's first tour was on Chinook before he switched to FW and became a Jag man.

[ShyTorque]

Indeed he was.

An ex OC CFS recently suggested that rotary pilots are very well suited to fly the BBMF aircraft as their flying skills have not been eroded by modern fly by wire aircraft.

[Ron Cake]

Tourist

'a couple of newbies tossed off a squadron'

Yes - I wondered who'd be first to spot that one

[Fareastdriver]

I'm surprised it took as long as it did. Young'uns are slipping nowadays.

[Neptunus Rex]

I seem to remember that wings/brevet could not be withdrawn once the recipient had completed six months of squadron service on their first tour.

However, I do know of one case where a pilot, after his second tour, was categorised unsuitable for any further flying duties, but was allowed to keep his wings. He was permanently chopped by CFS after a very smart Wing Commander Flying sussed that the only way to deal with the problem was to "recommend" him for a QFI course. From what I heard, he went on to become a successful, and very happy, Ops Officer.

[BEagle]

Back in the mid-'70s, ME training had been temporarily suspeneded. So all those who made it through to AFTS went through the Gnat/Hunter programme and thence to TWU Brawdy.

Great part of the world and real green camouflaged single seat jets to fly. Wonderful!

One day, after a slightly hard part of the course, our genial Flt Cdr was making himself a cup of coffee in the crewroom and remarked "Of course, if you lot find this all too difficult, you can always volunteer to go and fly b****y helicopters!".

It was obvious to most of us that this was a wind-up; however, a couple of wet tarts took him at his word and knocked on his door to announce that they found this TWU Hunter flying all too much, so they would like to volunteer for helicopters.....

Their feet didn't touch the ground and they were soon off the station. One became a navigator and the other something blunt.

Not that they were particularly missed.

[NutLoose]

And the current OC BBMF's first tour was on Chinook before he switched to FW and became a Jag man.

Must of been a bit of a let down to go from something quite nippy to the Jag.

[Melchett01]

Yes, but at least as OC BBMF he eventually got to fly a proper fighter!

[NDW]

All,

Thank you very much indeed for your posts!

Interesting to read different stories for Pilot crossovers/re streaming.

NDW

[ShyTorque]

Was that old pubic head TS?

The very same, CG.

Also PK (aka Babygrump), GT and not forgetting DB as per my earlier post (but then who could forget DB).

I crossed over to the plank side too (twice in fact), but the rotary world kept calling me back. :O