RAF VC-10 SAR mission

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I believe one of the R.A.F.'s remaining VC-10 aircraft has been deployed on a
north atlantic S.A.R. mission. Any one got any further details ?
Be lucky
David

[6foottanker]

If it's anything like the one I did a few years ago, the best use of the jet is for radio relay/C&C platform while a Sea King does the business at low level. It depends how far from land the incident is.

They may also be trying to search for an emergency signal on guard or tanking a Herc which can drop rescue kit.

[downsizer]

Rumour I heard, and I stress it's just a rumour, was that the '10 went because there was no Herc.

[Tea White Zero]

Search AND Rescue!?!

Now that would be worth seeing:D:D:D

Ok I'll get my coat! but if only we had a long range SAR platform.... no hang on a minute it is supposed to be covered by Dept of Transport by now:ugh:

[NutLoose]

Must be an absolute let down, bobbing around in a storm or whatever to see your hopeful rescue arriving overhead to circle and simply give you a cheery wave.

[mickey dee]

How recent was this one, didn't they go last month?
I wonder if this is to become a regular thing - for the next few months until they all go to Bruntingthorpe that is - what will they use then?

[MrBernoulli]

After the initial push in to Afghanistan (late 2001) and things were 'bedding in' for the long term, I was on det with a VC10 in the South Atlantic. Hercs were in strong demand for Afghan ops, and there was a threat to withdraw the one based alongside us at 1312 Flt and send it east. The HQ down there were in such a tizz about it that one day I received a phone call asking:

"If we lose the Herc, can the VC10 carry out Serach and Rescue ops?""Pardon?"
"For example, can the VC10 deploy ASRA kit?" (Air Sea Rescue Apparatus)"Sir, the VC10 doors open outwards, we cannot open them in flight ..... unless we wish to do ourselves harm!"
"But if we lose the Herc the VC10 will have to cover Search and Rescue!""No offence, Sir, but it isn't going to happen that way. The VC10 is a swept-wing, high speed, high altitude jet and we don't fanny about low and slow with the doors open!"
This is not a bar tale, this is what was actually being asked of me ..... by the people in Malvinas HQ ..... who are supposed to know the capabilities of equipment in theatre ......ffs. :ugh:

[12 twists per inch]

These are the same muppets who tried to order me to do a VC10 full power engine run in the hangar with the doors open......as that's what the tonkas did!
And yes the SAR shout did happen..

[Milo Minderbinder]

so whats the chance of a VC10 actually being able to find someone bobbing around in the ocean at night?

[NutLoose]

Reminds me of the emergency lightweight tow bars, I remembered getting briefed that if base hangar went up and there was a Ten in there on jacks, one was to rush up, lift this tow bar up and attach it to the nose leg, hook it up to a tug and pull.... Yup you are hearing right.... Pull... the Ten off jacks and outside, someone seemed to have missed or skirted round a few minor points such as staging, gear possibly unlocked, jacks going through wings etc.

Freight door opens inwards ;)

[BEagle]

Since only VC10Ks were based in the Malvinas, the freight door question was somewhat irrelevant.

Unless things have changed and the VC10 now has an updated DF system (which I very much doubt..), locating a 121.5 or 406 MHz PLB will be impossible.

No maritime VHF either.

But if someone has a position for a 406 Mhz PLB and the HFs actually work so that the position can be transmitted to the crew, it's vaguely possible that the aircraft could be sent to the approximate area. But what it would do when it arrived on scene, I cannot imagine.....:\

[Milo Minderbinder]

and I presume no suitable thermal imaging gear

[Dan Winterland]

We did sometimes carry a pair of very natty gyro stabilized binos in the South Atlantic. Do they count?

[Saint Jack]

NutLoose: Ref your Post #10 regarding towbars attached to aircraft undergoing maintenance reminds me of a visit a bunch of us made to the MU at St. Athan about a hundred years ago. A Valiant (I did say it was a long time ago) was quite clearly in the middle of a very deep maintenance check - with the towbar still attached. It didn't take long for someone to ask the obvious question and we were told that if anything occurred in the hangar that could endanger the aircraft, the tow-tug that was permanantly parked outside the hangar would be connected and pull the aircraft out of the hangar - in whatever condition it was in. If I remember correctly, this particular aircraft was up on jacks and minus its undercarriage. I've often wondered if that particular requirement was the result of a previous incident/accident or just precautionary. Interesting to hear that in this age of modern fire fighting/suppression systems etc., it's still followed. Apologies for thread drift.

[Biggus]

TWZ,

I think you'll find the Department of Transport, or whatever its predecessor was called, has been responsible for SAR within the UK FIR since 1944:

Convention on International Civil Aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_International_Civil_Aviation)

See Annex 13.

Within the UK, as indeed in many countries, this international obligation has been met on behalf of the DofT by military assets. Initially only the military were capable, and there was no great desire to spend any money duplicating what the military could achieve.

Is the military/MOD today being honest to the DofT about what it can actually achieve now the Nimrod is no longer available. If I were the Minister of Transport I would be asking some probing questions, rather than believe all the mouth music being spouted by MOD about coverage provided by C130, etc...

[Heathrow Harry]

I don't remember that the Nimrod ever rescued anyone either.......

maybe we should ask the Russians or the Japanese for a couple of flying boats......

[NutLoose]

Since only VC10Ks were based in the Malvinas, the freight door question was somewhat irrelevant

Still had the front one though?

Or even the emergeny chute, then you could watch everything you chucked out hitting the wing :E

As for SAR more like SAnoR


Chuck the dingy in the undercarriage door and raise the gear, after all I once saw a set of intake blanks deploy successfully after a new muppet out of training had managed to throw them in there having been told walk down the side and when you find an open door chuck them in there, unfortunately for him the freight door was closed, so the next opening was the main UC bay. :ugh:

[BEagle]

The Nimrod could drop survival equipment - and even the Hercules could drop stuff off the ramp if any survivors are still alive by the time it has plodded its way to the scene.

The VC10K cannot drop any survival equipment and is totally useless as an 'SAR' asset except to relay messages and, assuming the Mk17 HDU actually works at low speed, refuel a C-130.

Still had the front one though?

Or even the emergeny chute, then you could watch everything you chucked out hitting the wing

And how do you propose to open the cargo door from the inside?

The pointless escape chutes were removed years ago and were never een fitted to the VC10K4.

[Shackman]

They may not have physically rescued anyone (although the Lindholm Gear has SAVED many a person) but having top cover when a long way off the coast gives (gave!) the rotary world a great deal of comfort.

[Heathrow Harry]

I'd still rather have a flying boat flying top cover

a Nimrod was useful as it could give the coroner an exact location where you'd drowned/died of exposure I guess

[sharpend]

I was asked to carryout a SAR mission whilst in the Falklands. Yes we did carry those super gyro binoculars (but they were broken). We stooged around at 10,000 ft (did not have fuel for lower) and guess what? Saw nothing.

Not that we could have done anything anyway other than plot position. As the position was well out of range of boats and helos nothing could have been done anyway.

[Heathrow Harry]

drop a wreath?

[NutLoose]

Beagle, I am not being serious :p. It is a farcical situation to be in, the one aircraft that could do the job they got rid of without a replacement, and then they realise no Herc availability so what else have we got with 4 engines and the range, so they designate that...... Might as well contract it out to Easy Jet for all the use it is...



Oddly enough bar a Herc! or C17, these days about the only thing the RAF has that could deploy stuff in the air is in the BBMF.

[BEagle]

I'd still rather have a flying boat flying top cover

And what use would a flying boat be on most occasions?

Some might be able to land in Sea State 3, provided that the swell wasn't excessive. Shin Meiwa claim to be able to operate in Sea State 4, but even then swell would be an issue.

Flying boats are very inefficient, with high structural weight, poor fuel fraction and are obviously quite difficult to equip with large stores bays.

[Biggus]

Just use a real one of these....

Adam Miller Toys and Bicycles | Products | Hobbies | Moebius Flying Sub from Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea (http://www.adammillertoyandbicycle.com/product.php?id=257)

[Aeronut]

Since only VC10Ks were based in the M*******

You mean The Falkland Islands

[BEagle]

Oddly enough bar a Herc! or C17, these days about the only thing the RAF has that could deploy stuff in the air is in the BBMF

A good 1 Apr staff paper "Feasibility of converting PA474 to Lancaster ASR3 configuration"....;)

[NutLoose]

Or the Dak :E

[Basil]

Quote:
Since only VC10Ks were based in the M*******
You mean The Falkland Islands

Ees joke, señor - bit like our nuke crews used to pin 'Ban the Bomb' badges to their growbags.

[Basil]

19th May 1971 Already airborne in Signals Group Argosy and asked to find ditched Buccaneer. Used UHF homer, found area of 'fizzy' water, reported position and went home for lunch.

[oxenos]

Try googling Shackleton 963

[Milo Minderbinder]

so was the mission succesful?
did they find who they were looking for? Nothing apparent in the press today

[Biggus]

Ref nothing in the press today - who said it happened yesterday?

[Milo Minderbinder]

ah - my misinterpretation of the OP's comments then
I'd assumed it was a "hot news" posting

[Ray Dahvectac]

I don't remember that the Nimrod ever rescued anyone either.......


I do recall diverting into Shannon after remaining on task to PLE having located some unfortunate whose yacht was one of a few that couldn't cope with the weather during a race.

Taxying in and wondering what duty free booze to take home while the refuel took place, my thoughts were interrupted on hearing a call from the tower:

Tower: Err ... Rescue 51, are you the Nimrod?

Co-pilot: Tower, Rescue 51 - affirmative.

Tower: Roger. Have you been involved in the yacht race search?

Co-pilot: Affirmative.

Tower: Roger. Do you have any survivors on board?

A stunned silence followed.

[Fedaykin]

Decoupling this from the sensitive subject of the Nimrod and its demise the fact is most countries that do long range SAR top cover which is what this problem is all about use a long range business jet to perform the task. Cheap to operate vs a larger type, fast onto station, fitted with a door to drop rescue kit, searchlight, suitable radar (maybe an optronics turret as well) and communications kit to perform the comms relay role. Good example would be the Dassault Falcon 900 MSA operated by the Japanese Coast Guard:

http://www.scramble.nl/mil/2/jasdf/gfx/photos/F900_JCG.jpg

Putting aside all the other more military things the Nimrod did when it comes to the more narrow task of SAR top cover shouldn't the debate be had that it is a role better performed by the Coast Guard. A business jet type can be leased on a turnkey type arrangement much like what is already being done with other Coastguard types. The deal could even be tied into the one being negotiated for SAR helicopter replacement. The pilots of this Business jet will more then likely be ex RAF anyway so there will be skill pull through. In the end we get a type suited for the role and more affordable then utilising over stretched ill suited military types.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I'd dispute the fact that the Nimrod never rescued anyone.

Whilst it never picked up any passengers during a SAR shout, there are, undoubtedly folks who, without the help of the Nimrod, would now be deceased. I'd say that they were rescued.

Duncs:ok:

[Cows getting bigger]

A sorry state of affairs, especially considering that my own, bankrupt country still manages to front-up a couple of CN235s.

[oldmansquipper]

I was involved in the "feasability" trial of ASRA chucked from the side door of the NEAF (takes you back) LXX Argosy for the first time.

I have vivid memories of bobbing up and down (vigorously) in the MCU pinnace in Akrotiri Bay in mid winter.....The wind was howling, the waves were towering, and the pinnace crew (but not me, strangely) were throwing up..:ooh::ooh:

We were the target `survivors`

I watched the three yellow containers, 1 small, 1 large and 1 more small, exit the door all in a bunch. They spun down together throwing hanks of orange rope all over the place and the liferaft inflated about half way down.

The entire shebang hit the sea about 50 meters upwind of us and the liferaft burst on impact....I think we eventually recovered some of the cardboard container segments and that was about it...

I think the crew went back dispatch sequence training after....Ho Hum!

BTW: I don't think the Ryan Air option would work either - Have you seen the rates they charge for check baggage these days & ASRA is pretty heavy...;)

[NutLoose]

This might sound stupid, but as the Ten has the capability to carry an engine on a pylon under the port wing, a modified pylon could have been dusted off to carry a podded raft, bit late in the day but a remote version could have been possible.

[MrBernoulli]

And flying pigs could be possible too, given long enough!

[MATELO]

Just a few years ago an inflatable dinghy was dropped to 2 stricken sailors in the Bay of Biscay.

A bloody good shot as well taken into account the swell and the winds.

[Coochycool]

Shameful situation.

With regards to CGB's contribution, what are the chances we could/should cost share the Irish CN-235s? They are after all even more skint than we are. Half the time in an SAR vain we'd end up cruising their hood anyway.

[sycamore]

I thought the wonderful C-17 could open the ramp and drop stuff out the back,or is that not in the contract..?

[Heathrow Harry]

they can indeed - see

McChord C-17s To The Rescue! [Archive] - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-20698.html)

MCCHORD AIR FORCE BASE, Wash. -- An Air Force cargo (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-20698.html#) plane and crew from McChord Air Force Base flew from New Zealand to Antarctica early Saturday to assist a stranded British fishing trawler.

The C-17 Globemaster III, along with its pilots and loadmasters from the 446th Airlift Wing and 62nd Airlift Wing, were already in New Zealand to deliver supplies to Antarctica as part of Operation Deep Freeze - a research program of the National Science Foundation and U.S. Antarctic Program.

The New Zealand Rescue Coordination Center contacted the Operation Deep Freeze C-17 mission commander in Christchurch, New Zealand, to seek assistance in dropping supplies to a British fishing trawler, the Argos Georgia, that had lost all main power and was frozen in the ice flow off the Ross Ice Shelf.

The Air Force said other options to rescue the ship were either no longer available or would be more than 10 days away. The trawler crew had been without main power for six days.

The air crew dropped an engine piston and casing from approximately 400 feet above the surface at a speed of about 170 miles per hour.

From New Zealand Herald:
Air-drop in effort to free trawler from ice trap - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10485479)

photos are at the bottom of page

446th Airlift Wing - Media Gallery (http://www.446aw.afrc.af.mil/photos/mediagallery.asp?galleryID=545&?id=-1&page=1&count=48)

[MrBernoulli]

I thought the wonderful C-17 could open the ramp and drop stuff out the back,or is that not in the contract..?
But the C17 is probably too busy transporting stuff to and from desert locations east of Brize to be hanging about on SAR cover?

[Twon]

I recall changing the ASR kit from one Nimrod to another at O'dark hundred in 2000 as the SAR jet had gone U/S. Subsequent loaded jet was then used to drop survival gear in the atlantic to a boat in distress.

As Duncs said, not necessarily a "rescue" but I'm pretty confident the boat's crew were very happy.

[Corporal Clott]

According to DASA stats on 1 Apr 2011 we had 24x Herc C1/C3/C4/C5 and 6x C17 - we must be able to drum something up to do a "Lindholme Gear" drop? They can't all be out East or in maintenance?

CPL Clott

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Can't they?

Duncs:ok:

[Roland Pulfrew]

^^^^^ What he said!!

Worrying that DASA stats are a bit dubious; I thought we had more Js and Ks left than that!!

[The B Word]

24 May 12

A new C-17 transport aircraft has been unveiled today by the Defence Secretary at RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire.

Philip Hammond welcomed the £200M aircraft which arrived in the UK this week from Boeing’s production plant in California.

This aircraft is the eighth C-17 in the RAF’s fleet. Known as “the workhorse of the RAF”, they play a vital role in sustaining the UK’s ‘air bridge’ with Afghanistan – carrying supplies and passengers into and out of the country.

C-17s can fly for more than 4,500 nautical miles meaning it can fly directly from Helmand Province to the UK.

As well as transporting troops and equipment, C-17s can also be converted rapidly to offer Intensive Care provision in support of the Aeromedical Airbridge.


So that makes 8x C17s...remind me how many Grimrods were going to get prior to cancellation? Get out the C-17s and Hercs plus ASRA Mk4s and job done!

[Corporal Clott]

^^^^ Yes, and how many of the kipper fleet were always on standby at KIS for SAR when they were off doing Op Chob, protecting the IND, doing trg and trying to a job that the US were doing with an armed unmanned aircraft powered by a converted snow-mobil engine!?

IIRC MR2 was a fleet of 14 from around 2004, and that would not be enough for all these vital roles that keep getting mentioned. At a guess you would have 3 on Ops in the ME, 2 doing ASW/ASuW, 2 doing trg and then the occasional trail/exercise/ranger on top. Let's say 60% of the Forward Available Fleet is available most days and that would be every aircraft used up on a lot of days and none available for the SAR cover?

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Clott,

There was 'always' an ac available for SAR. Sometimes, to be fair, SAR was covered by an airborne asset.

Duncs:ok:

[Adam Nams]

If you need some support, I've heard that these two (http://www.gfs.gov.hk/eng/aircraft.htm) may be coming up for sale in the next year or so. :ok:

[FFP]

Mr B,

Classic story that doesn't surprise me at all. Mind you, better than the Army watch keeper that though the VC-10 was some artillery piece for the first few weeks in post....;)

[Ken Scott]

Jetstream 41 data:

Radius of Action : 500 nautical miles (with 55 min on scene time)
300 nautical miles (with 2 hr 30 min on scene time)

I don't think 500nm is going to quite cover the UK's area of responsibility for SAR out to 30W.......

[Adam Nams]

What about this (http://www.bombardier.com/en/aerospace/media-centre/press-releases/details?docID=0901260d801a2bc6) then? ;)

The Challenger 605 aircraft offers a maximum range of 4,000 nautical miles (7,408 km)

Under certain conditions, granted. Looks good (http://www.gfs.gov.hk/Document/graphics/image1/GFS-CL605.JPG) too. :ok:

[Ken Scott]

The UK Government will take 3 aircraft, send the bill to a 'G Osbourne, c/o HMG' please.

Delivery to Newquay International asap. I apply wef for the post of Chief Pilot. Any other volunteers, previous experience preferred?

It's not that difficult when you know how....!

[NutLoose]

Can we not just buy some of these, or sell them to Scotland

Ministry of Defence | Defence For... | Business | DSA | Air Equipment Sales (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Business/DSA/AirEquipmentSales.htm)

[Donna K Babbs]

I believe the incident happened about 4 or 5 weeks ago and the VC 10 was offered to the ARCC as no other ships or aircraft were on scene. I'm fairly sure that the VC10 didn't even get to the scene before the crew in difficulty were rescued by a ship that had been asked to assist by the Coastguard.

[mickey dee]

Herc was asked for and spooled up to go out after the VC 10 but was then redirected to a helicopter ditched in the north sea. The lot in the Atlantic were picked up by a boat and Sea kings got the north sea lot.

[ninja-lewis]

Newsroom - Press Releases (http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/newsandpublications/press-releases.htm?id=516EC17949682325&m=5&y=2012)