Usage of speed brakes, v/s, etc.

[WhySoTough]

I know I've made quiet a few threads lately, but im sure a lot of other newbies also gain from the advice of the more experienced on this forum.

I apologize nevertheless for asking too much, but again have some questions.
I was barely taught to use speed brakes, and v/s etc on TR, and now on line I see a lot of captains playing around with v/s which is very new to me.

I understand that you shouldn't or wouldn rather not use v/s to increase rate of descent that often, because it could increase speed a lot, but you would rather use speed brakes, correct?
If finding yourself below profile, use it to reduce rate of descent, and it will continue to maintain speed with no problems?

Can you use speed brakes and v/s both together?

ATC asked you to descent at 2500 ft per minute and maintain 250 knots.
What happens if you speed select 250 and put v/s 2500?
I assume the v/s is the priority and speed is disregarded? In this case do you use speed brakes to slow down?

Please feel free to add other examples, and any tricky stuff that you find ATC asking you to do, anything is useful.

Thanks in advance guys !:ok:

[tubby linton]

It depends on aircraft type. In an old airbus the speed is controlled by the autothrust and the V/S is the pitch mode. I generaly would select the speed about 5 knots less as this keep auto thrust changes to a minimum,but you must be prepared to accept some speed variation around your target.
You can use speedbrakes and V/S but you need to be aware that this can lead to the autothrust in some circumstances increasing thrust and fighting against the drag of the speedbrakes. This is obviously not very fuel efficient.If you wish to increase your rate of descent I would utilize a mode which gives idle thrust(LVL Change or OpDes),and extend the brakes. If this is still not enough then I would either increase speed or alternatively extend the gear depending again on circumstances.

[zerozero]

250kts & 2500fpm descent?

Sorry, sometimes you just have to say "unable". You might offer one or the other but both at the same time (depending on variables) may be impossible.

[John21UK]

ATC is there for you and not the other way around. IF they want me to slow down and descent at a high V/S then I'll tell them that they've got a choice, either speed or v/s/altitude. Sometimes it's daft using speedbrakes for what ATC is trying to achieve and it's just wasting too much 'free' energy.

On the Embraer V/S is not used. We use Flight Path Angle instead. But yes, you can use speedbrakes in both modes.

In v/s you are not speed protected so we tend to use Flight Level Change or FPA. In FPA you are also not speed protected. but it maintains a given descent angle irrespective of config/speed/wind etc.

[i_like_tea]

ATC is there for you and not the other way around.

Trying telling the French that!

[Microburst2002]

For such a clearance I recommend to use OP DES. If unable to meet the target V/S with THR IDLE mode active, then it is obvious that you need speedbrakes. Use them as required.

If you use V/S and SPEED mode is unable to maintain the target speed (actual speed is greater than target with the engines at idle), then it is obvious that you need speedbrakes. Physically you are doing the same, an idle descent with speedbrakes, but it is more intuitive and less confusing with the OP DES, in my opinion.

V/S is a great, great tool, however, that you can use in many situations. It allows you to tactically set the rate at which you change airplane speed. OP DES, DES, OP CLB and CLB modes include algorithms for acceleration and deceleration that depend on several factors. Sometimes they are not convenient for your particular situation and you can change that by using V/S mode. Also, V/S mode allows you a more direct control of your pitch attitude. It is like an indirect way of pulling or pushing the sidestick, so to speak. It is very useful when you have TCAS TA, to prevent a TCAS RA, for instance. If ALT* happens and you still want to use V/S because of that push to level off, then adjust the V/S.

Again, many pilots seem to be scared of using it. That is wrong. V/S is your friend, and it comes with a very good friend of its own: SPEED. And it has protections for excessive rates. What else could one ask for???

Don't forget that V/S is the pitch basic mode of the AP/FD and you must know how to use it. There are some things you have to bear in mind when using it, but nothing complicated.

[zerozero]

That post was hell to read for those of us with red/green color blindness.

:8

[Microburst2002]

hahaha

I like to use the colors, sometimes

[macdo]

VS and Speedbrake don't work very well together for the reasons stated above, the only reason to use this combination is if you were unusually assigned a particular RoD and were trying to get the speed back. If you PULL 250kt and PULL 2500 Vs, VS being a basic mode mode will have greater priority over SPEED mode and you will accelerate away from your selected speed target. This situation will continue until an overspeed occurs, when the OS protection will temporarily override the VS command and pitch the a/c up to maintain vmax. It is possible to use the speedbrake to prevent this, but it would look and feel untidy.


If ATC are being unreasonable with your 250kts/2500fpm scenario, you can consider:
taking the autopilot out which on most A320's allows maximum Speedbrake to pop out, instead of the just over 50% with Ap engaged, this works a treat. It does not work on A321's and other specific Airbuses, so check your MSN.

If you are really stuck and are quite close in to destination, state 'non standard' and get the gear down. This technique is completely appropriate and combined with the full speedbrake gives a very sporting Rod. But it requires a bit of the mental arithmetic that as discussed in a previous thread.

I make no claim to being a Airbus expert, so this just line stuff which I might use in a specific situation, that I know will work OK.

Good questions OP, keep 'em coming.
ps. once upon a time there used to be a breed of pilot that regarded it as a matter of honour that they didn't use the speedbrake ever and actually laughed at you if you did, thankfully this has largely died out.

[Intruder]

I was barely taught to use speed brakes, and v/s etc on TR, and now on line I see a lot of captains playing around with v/s which is very new to me.

I understand that you shouldn't or wouldn rather not use v/s to increase rate of descent that often, because it could increase speed a lot, but you would rather use speed brakes, correct?
If finding yourself below profile, use it to reduce rate of descent, and it will continue to maintain speed with no problems?

Can you use speed brakes and v/s both together?

ATC asked you to descent at 2500 ft per minute and maintain 250 knots.
What happens if you speed select 250 and put v/s 2500?
I assume the v/s is the priority and speed is disregarded? In this case do you use speed brakes to slow down?
The general answer is, "Use what you need to make the airplane do what you want."

Use V/S whenever you want to maintain a specific V/S. Also use it to get down to G/S when intercepting from above.

Speedbrakes + V/S is a useful combination when you want to slow down while descending at a constant rate. If airspeed starts increasing when the throttles hit the idle stop in V/S, use the speedbrakes as necessary.

In the 744, V/S will sacrifice airspeed to maintain the selected V/S; there is no speed protection at the high or low end in V/S.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

On the Embraer V/S is not used. We use Flight Path Angle instead. But yes, you can use speedbrakes in both modes.

In v/s you are not speed protected so we tend to use Flight Level Change or FPA. In FPA you are also not speed protected. but it maintains a given descent angle irrespective of config/speed/wind etc.

Actually VS is used on the Embraer.

The trouble with FPA is, as in the scenario above, if you are trying to control ROD and speed but your speed starts to run away from you so will your VS. You're then in a bit of a vicious circle.

[WhySoTough]

Thank you all very much for the informative posts once again.
Definitely does make sense.

Line training captain today told me he personally never uses V/S to increase ROD generally because it disregards speed, but often uses it for a slow rate of climb for passenger comfort, and also to slow ROD when he finds himself below profile.
When using V/S to minimize rate of descent or climb, thrust will be added or reduced to maintain the manged speed, correct?

Also, since you bring it up intruder.
I have done it once in the sim only, intercepting GS from above.
Arm the approach, turn alt knob to be higher, select V/S -1500-2000 and pull.
Use speed brakes to help?

From what I have been told, the airbus is a pain to understand at first, but is a charm once you understand it.
Right now every captain I watch does something different. Some randomly seem to go on open climb, some manage, some would rather be low and slow, some high and somewhat fast, etc.
all in all it's an amazing aircraft I think.(not that I have much to compare it with:})

thanks for the responses guys!

[A Squared]

250kts & 2500fpm descent?

Sorry, sometimes you just have to say "unable".

I can do that without speed brakes. Easy.

How's your new digs? You need to update your profile.

[zerozero]

I can do that without speed brakes. Easy.

How's your new digs? You need to update your profile.

Hey! Digs are acceptable. But still consider myself a sourdough.

:}

[Microburst2002]

Airbus has so many tools... Use them any time you see it fit to use them. If you are the Pilot Flying you have to fly the airplane. That can be full managed, almost full managed, partially managed, selected, AP OFF... As required by the situation and according to circumstances. You must never be flown by the airplane. Ignore those who tell you to manage everything every time.

If you don't like the V/S of your airplane, or the rate at which it is losing or gaining knots, or the rate at which it is pitching, or something, you are the pilot flying and have to make the airplane do what you want it to do.

For the time being, get familiar with the machine, understand it. Then study it again and you will see you didn't understand it so well, so study it again and understand it. Still, you have to study it a bit more... Learn from others, but always in a critical way (don't learn bad habits) and beware of negative training (lots of it can be poured into you if you are unlucky with the TRI, TREs...). With time, experience and a constant learning mentality, you will reach higher and higher levels of understanding and you will truly master the machine. Enjoy the process. After 10 years I still learn and I am sure there are still a few levels to reach.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Think through the dynamics of what you want to achieve.

VS is useful for a controlled rate of descent, it is seldom, if ever the correct way to achieve a high RoD. I was taught (on 737) that VS is not a suitable mode with power in the lower quarter of the range, or close to the top as reaching idle or max thrust will begin to affect the speed, so in those thrust regimes use Level Change or whatever equivalent mode you are equipped with. Failure to observe this basic precaution will eventually lead to a speed exceedence at one end of the range or the other. If you need more RoD than can be achieved with idle thrust either increase IAS or maintain what you have and use speedbrake, or both, which is used depends again on the situation, ie is speed able to be varied?
Using speedbrake to increase RoD when higher speed is not a problem is a clumsy technique, but of course close to (or intercepting) the approach increasing speed is a good way to get yourself into a pickle.
I regard using speedbrake to slow the aircraft as clumsy too unless the reduction is urgent which is rare. It isn't intended to be used like the brakes on a car. We'd be better off referring to them by their proper name, "Spoilers" which is less likely to form slowing down associations in the minds of junior (and some senior) pilots.
As said elsewhere the gear is a useful and valid option close in too.
Finally, if you can't comply, tell ATC. They will have to give you a workable option, be it more miles, a turn, changing the clearance etc. That is up to them, and you can suggest what you can do as said above. It's your show, not theirs!

[Basil]

My view has always been that speedbrakes are there to be used when required.
Better to use judiciously than be too high or fast at a limit point.
One of the great things about command is knowing there will be no 'Tut, tutting.' from the LHS :p

[FullWings]

I think Agaricus has some very valid points.

You *can* use V/S and speedbrake together but over the years I've observed that it requires more attention than other ways of getting the same result. Wind gradient, icing, config. and speed changes all need continuous adjustments in the amount of speedbrake.

If you're distracted by other duties or events, which normally happens during the approach phase when speedbrakes are needed, you can easily end up with power coming up against the spoilers or getting close to limiting speeds, especially with a significant V/S or flap deployed. Yes, if you're on top of it all, it can be managed without incident but, to me, it lacks... Elegance, or something close to that. I feel part of being professional is to try to leave as much spare capacity as possible to deal with unforeseen events (or even foreseen ones...), especially when in a busy environment.

All AFDSs that I know of prioritise V/S over anything else, so the speed will vary unless you keep a close eye on the instruments and move the lever around. In the terminal environment, ATC generally want you to fly constant speeds and vary the RoD, rather than the other way round. It's simpler just to use an open descent mode (level change in Boeings) and adjust your descent rate using more or less drag. This has the advantage that the aircraft is speed stable if you take your eye off the ball for a moment.

V/S is one of those modes that if used thoughtlessly or without due monitoring can put you in a situation you'd rather not be in, such as behind the drag curve at high altitude if you climb/descend into a decreasing headwind or increasing tailwind. Strong temperature gradients can produce unexpected results as engine power decreases along with mach number. Things like this occur because it is easy to set a V/S which is instantaneously OK but will sooner or later take the aircraft out of its performance and/or flight envelope.

[Fursty Ferret]

Though bear in mind that with full speedbrake on a heavy A320 (approaching max landing weight) and 250kts you'll be sitting right on top of VLS.

[haughtney1]

Never fails to amaze me when I hear people critical of pilots who choose to use speedbrake. The reason it's there and certified for usage in flight is that it's an aerodynamic device that's part of the package.
Agaricus, try getting away with not using speedbrakes into lots of places around the world, and you'll find yourself embarressed.
On the Boeing, FLCH and speedbrake is a better way of maintaining a ROD and a speed that might be difficult to do otherwise. VS will have you still requiring speedbrake to keep the speed back, but you will find the thrust levers coming up in anticipation......and causing further embarrassment.

[Microburst2002]

Speedbrakes must be used if needed, we all agree in that, I'm sure. Only you have to think first if you really need them before using them.

I see speedbrakes as "energy dissipators". I will mot use them if I don't have excess energy, normally. Of course there are exceptions, like not too reasonable ATC requests or times where you need a very quick speed decrease without reducing you rate of descent.

Use of V/S at high altitude (a common practice even by those pilots who are afraid of it in other circumstances), can be very tricky. Mostly it is used in the bus when approachin crising level, this being at or above optimum, or near pmaximun, since the rates are so low and "oscillatory" that it seems better to keep a reasonable fixed rate at the expense of a few mach centesimals. But beware of doing this in a day where VMO and VAPROT are very close, specially after a "reach FL 380 before ZZZ". Don't let the airplane be at green dot, where the slide down the backside of the curve begins...

[Intruder]

Also, since you bring it up intruder.
I have done it once in the sim only, intercepting GS from above.
Arm the approach, turn alt knob to be higher, select V/S -1500-2000 and pull.
Use speed brakes to help?
DO NOT set a higher altitude when intercepting the G/S from above!!!

Until you capture the G/S, keep a reasonable altitude in the MCP. In this case, the ILS minimums might be appropriate if you are inside the FAF or any other fix with an altitude restriction. You might also use 1000' above the airport, because if you haven't captured the G/S before then, you won't meet Stabilized Approach criteria.

AFTER you capture the G/S, reset the altitude to Missed Approach altitude.

Use speedbrakes only if needed to keep A/S under control AND if allowed with landing flaps.

[Capn Bloggs]

Line training captain today told me he personally never uses V/S to increase ROD generally because it disregards speed
Training captain? Not a very good one. I do not like using Level Change/FLCH/Open Desc (I think it is called on the Airbus), when close to configuring and close to the ground. Unless you're a rocket scientist, it is hard to predict what sink rate the aircraft will develop. The beauty of VS (or FPA for the backward Jungle Jet) is that you can directly control your sink rate. If the speed starts increasing beyond desired, pull out the speedbrakes! If the workload is too high and the autothrottle then starts powering up, who cares?

The classic use of speedbrake is Intruder's scenario: capturing GS from on high. Set a controlled ROD (~1500ft) and wait for GS capture. Of course, you keep configuring as per normal - if speed reduction doesn't occur, pull out the speedbrakes. Selecting Level Change/FLCH/Open Desc is asking for very high, unknown rates of descent, which, if for some reason you miss the GS could be very scary. This also applies when high on a NPA. VS directly controls the ROD=good.

Another scenario I frequently encounter is ATC holding you up inside 20nm and then clearing you down. VS will make the aircraft descend; the other modes do not if you are reducing speed whilst configuring. If not in VS/FPA, the aircraft only descends only when it gets to the target speed. Pulling out the SB then just makes the nose bury.

Finally, as mentioned previously, VS is the nose-position mode. I want immediate nose response now eg bumpy cloud approaching (or TCAS traffic): VS is the way to do it (unless you have a direct pitch mode, of course).

[Capn Bloggs]

DO NOT set a higher altitude when intercepting the G/S from above!!!

Airbus SOP (and SOP at both my previous and current companies) is to set a higher altitude than the current aircraft altitude on the FCU to prevent ALT* mode, during an intercept from above.

That's real smart. Miss the GS for whatever reason and you just keep going until you hit the ground.

At what point does your SOP mandate you convert your "ILS" to the LLZ approach, or disconnect the AP and manually get back on the GS, or do you just fly down the ILS/GS in VS?

I suggest that if you/the aircraft is sufficiently out of control not to be stabilised on the approach, with GS captured, you shouldn't be there at all. Setting the ALT SEL high removes that only protection you have. Our SOP is to set the ALT SEL at 1500ft AAL. If you haven't captured the GS by then, you must convert to the options I mentioned above or Go Around.

[felixthecat]

In an intercept from above would you not set say a stabilisation altitude…say 1000 feet and then if you get ALT capture whilst trying to capture the GS your not stable and you go around? If you set a higher altitude (say the go around alt) you are possibly too busy trying to capture the GS with a high ROD near to the ground you don't notice the altitude for a moment and hey presto WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP, SINK RATE SINK RATE or worse :eek::eek: Without having something sensible set when do you call it a day and throw away the approach? 1000, 500, where?? I personally like to use the automatics as a safety net for my own incompetence :ok:

I personally would only set a higher altitude when I am established on the GS and the situation is 100% under my control…..

[macdo]

John_smiths sop is the standard AIRBUS and is certainly the SOP in my outfit. The problem is, if you don't get the FCU well out of the way, the opaque methodology by which Alt* operates means you end up with multiple alt* captures which prevent you from getting VS going. All this happens very fast, so by the time you sort it out, if you have forgotton to set the FCU up above your current altitude, you are so close in that the approach is unrecoverable and a go-around is the only option!

[felixthecat]

If there is one thing that history has taught us in aviation is that if it can go wrong sooner or later it will go wrong.

I have never flown the Bus and its not a Boeing SOP of which I am glad. An open decent close to the ground in a busy environment strikes me as something that can go wrong. We have backups in aviation to prevent isolated failures turning into catastrophes, I like using the automatics to back me up should I make a mistake….Of course that never happens though :eek::}:eek::}:ouch:

Follow your SOPs they were written by people far cleverer than 90% of us gassing and moaning on here….just glad its not a Boeing SOP. :ok:

[HGVO]

Where is the problem? GS is still armed, you descend with a rate of about 1500fpm in Conf 2 until you capture the GS again. Of course you still have to comply with stabilized approach criteria, so if you are still out of limits at lets say 1000ft AGL you simply go around...

[Intruder]

If the pilot does not set the attitude above present altitude, it is likely the a/c will Alt capture (& level out) before intercepting the G/S.
As soon as possible select the Go Around Altitude
From current company SOP. I can't see a problem or threat with it to be honest.

Clearly if the GS isn't captured by 1000', a go around will be uppermost in the crews' mind. If it isn't captured by 500', there is no argument or discussion: a go around will be flown.
As felix indicates, such an "open descent" with no altitude protection is a good prelude to flying it into the ground if you get distracted and the G/S does not capture. If you can't capture the G/S before 1000' (assuming IMC), you WANT the Altitude to capture if you haven't initiated the Go-Around yet! If you're VMC, you should be flying the airplane and using the V/S in flight director mode for guidance. Again, if you are not on a reasonable glidepath at 500', you WANT the altitude capture to show on the FD to alert you!

I don't know what the Airbus proecedure have as a preface to that procedure, but it is a bad set-up.

[Capn Bloggs]

macdo has given a clear explanation as to why the SOP is constructed as it is.
Not really. All he has done is explain the apparently poxy ALT* system and why the best thing is to spin the ALT SEL out of the way, hence the SOP. It'll work every time, until someone misses the GS and prangs short.

[felixthecat]

Its a hole in the "swiss cheese" model….it always works until the other holes line up….

" We haven't crashed yet" isn't a valid argument :eek:

[Microburst2002]

G/S armed is as safe as ALT armed.

But It is possible to fly V/S without ALT armed and forgetting to arm approach. also, it may happen that G/S signal is down.

One day I remember that we were capturing from above and then something smelled rotten, we realised G/S signal wasn't there! It was a VMC day and we noticed the problem, but in a busier IMC situation, who knows, only EGPWS could warn you of an inminent crash into terrain.

My conclusion is: use the recommended method, but d not capture glideslopes from above in high workload or low situation awarenwss situations due to whatever circumstances. If in IMC, extra monitoring is required.

[de facto]

The classic use of speedbrake is Intruder's scenario: capturing GS from on high. Set a controlled ROD (~1500ft) and wait for GS capture. Of course, you keep configuring as per normal - if speed reduction doesn't occur, pull out the speedbrakes. Selecting Level Change/FLCH/Open Desc is asking for very high, unknown rates of descent

Totally disagree.
VS is for low rate of descent in TMA during CDAs..
If you need to increase your rate of descent,(ie above glide slope)use LvL chg and adjust speed to get your desired rate of descent.
Now you have speed protection and you dont have to destroy that energy with your :mad: speedbrakes.

[Intruder]

G/S armed is as safe as ALT armed.

But It is possible to fly V/S without ALT armed and forgetting to arm approach. also, it may happen that G/S signal is down.
In the 744 there is not an "ALT armed" selection, but I will assume the concept is the same as setting a target altitude in the MCP.

You contradict yourself in the second sentence. Assuming the autopilot engaged (as in the OP's query), V/S WILL capture the target altitude when that altitude is approached. An insufficient rate of descent may preclude G/S capture, in which case the airplane will impact the runway at the selected RoD. A G/S failure or outage or other anomaly may allow an impact short of the runway.

[quote]One day I remember that we were capturing from above and then something smelled rotten, we realised G/S signal wasn't there! It was a VMC day and we noticed the problem, but in a busier IMC situation, who knows, only EGPWS could warn you of an inminent crash into terrain.

My conclusion is: use the recommended method, but d not capture glideslopes from above in high workload or low situation awarenwss situations due to whatever circumstances. If in IMC, extra monitoring is required./quote]
The problem with that analysis is that it is EXACTLY the "high workload or low situation awarenwss situations" where a pilot might [blindly] choose to roll the V/S wheel down and the altitude wheel up, removing the protections when they are most needed.

If you are worried about a premature capture of the target altitude interrupting a reasonable intercept, then use the ILS minimums as the target, rather than the otherwise suggested 1000 or 500'. At least then you will be within go-around parameters when the altitude is captured.

[i_like_tea]

I think the problem with everyones above suggestions of how we "should" do our intercept from above procedure in the Airbus is just that.. it's how they think we should. How nice it would be if we were all at freedom to create our own SOPs... we're not, Airbus and the company want the altitude to be set above for a reason, and this is why we do and will continue to do it.

[felixthecat]

I disagree, we pointed out where we think the SOP could be a little lacking in our opinions and in fact in my last post I said that your SOP should be followed since its written by people cleverer than we are…I have an opinion thats all :ok:

[MD83FO]

I avoid using speedbrake to the maximum. The buffet is uncomfortable and they usually reveal poor descent planning.
On the 320 the managed descent usually leaves me below profile
I like to use VS mode, It is more comfortable, if im confronted with having to reduce speed i activate the approach phase getting rid of the speed bug or simply select a lower speed so i dont have to worry about the thrust increasing,
I control the speed with a combination of VS and speedbrake if required.
If above profile i press EXP DES down to 5000 if required ATC permiting. The extra drag from high speed descent really helps to capture the profile.

[macdo]

Just to add,
use of the Expedite button is banned in our airline and many others due to inadvertent loss of controlled flight. Lack of proper monitoring, probably.
I believe the function is removed or blanked on the later 320 models and on others it is replaced with the ALT button, which simply levels the aircraft off.

[zerozero]

That's hilarious.

They should rename the button then...

Something like:

A/C CNTRL

Crew can select ON or OFF.

:hmm:

[macdo]

Yes, its the French sense of humour.:)

[A Squared]

" . . . and many others due to inadvertent loss of controlled flight."

As opposed to intentional loss of controlled flight?

[macdo]

Come on, it was meant to be tongue in cheek!

[bubbers44]

""I avoid using speedbrake to the maximum. The buffet is uncomfortable and they usually reveal poor descent planning.
On the 320 the managed descent usually leaves me below profile
I like to use VS mode, It is more comfortable, if im confronted with having to reduce speed i activate the approach phase getting rid of the speed bug or simply select a lower speed so i dont have to worry about the thrust increasing,
I control the speed with a combination of VS and speedbrake if required.
If above profile i press EXP DES down to 5000 if required ATC permiting. The extra drag from high speed descent really helps to capture the profile. "

Like the pilot said when ATC asked the pilots to expedite descent the pilot said these speed brakes are for my mistakes, not yours. I hate using speed brakes too, it means I wasn't minding the store or ATC kept me high and fast.

[KingChango]

this is a very amusing topic to read the replies.

at school they taught me to plan always such a way that you preserve enough energy to go all the way from TOD to Final, without using any thrust other then (full)idle.
now with the company i work for we usually do this, and as taught, speedbrakes is a way of correcting for bad planning of descend and getting back on profile, or when ATC requires a quicker descend.

using the speedbrakes mean you're literally throwing away energy, and that's bad airmanship.

you should get to know you aircraft and plan accordingly when to start your descend so to not use it.

and where you're flying a star which requires some step downs, you can also apply this theory.
as long as you're not throwing out the energy.

i fly the md80, here we have vnav but usually i use the v/s and plan it myself. this because the vnav requires input data of the current winds for it to predict your TOD.

using the V/S you can anticipate going above profile, increase your RoD (while still above 10,000ft) and go under profile, keep going under profile which the increased speed, then start earlier to reduce your RoD when you're approaching 10,000 so as to reduce your speed to 250kts.

and then depending on your weight, you maintain the required RoD(v/s) so to maintain the 250kts all the way down to your given altitude.
with a good planning taking into account head and tail winds / freezing level and actual weights/mass, you'll do this time after time without going out of idle thrust, and certainly not using speedbrakes.
practice makes prefect.

[Intruder]

using the speedbrakes mean you're literally throwing away energy, and that's bad airmanship.
Nope. Bad airmanship is not being able to put the airplane where you want it, because you refuse to use provided controls.

[bubbers44]

We played a game at our airline where you had to plan your weight and wind in a 737 so when you went to idle power at FL350 you couldn't touch power until 1,000 ft to stabilize or use speed brakes or you lost, all you could do was vary the speed a bit to stay on profile. It wasn't that hard and saved fuel plus made you a better pilot by keeping you in tune with how to efficiently use your piloting skills to get the most out of your aircraft. I even did it with the 757 because knowing how we would be maneuvering for landing I could do it better than the VNAV.

[Microburst2002]

That is what I claim. I can do better than the FMGC... Frequently.

I don't mind using speedbrakes if my calculations were not accurate or circumstances change, which happens frequently too. But I try not to use them until it is clear that I have too much energy and it is not advisable to convert that excess energy in reduced flight time.

[Capn Bloggs]

using the speedbrakes mean you're literally throwing away energy, and that's bad airmanship.
I hope you mean planning to use the speedbrakes...

Anybody who won't use the speedbrakes (or configure early...it's the same thing) to correct a high-energy state because of some misguided feeling of incompetence or saving fuel is a mug. Obviously you don't plan to get into a position where you need to use them, but once there, not to use them is plain silly.

I'de send myself to an early grave if I always tried to do better than the 717's VNAV. :ok:

[Capt Claret]

and they usually reveal poor descent planning.

Gees that's a bit harsh. A port that I frequently frequent, often implement speed control. It's nothing to be told well into the descent to slow down by up to 100 (that's one hundred) knots.

It's not my poor descent planning but without speed brake, it's extra track miles. :(

[wiggy]

Intruder

Bad airmanship is not being able to put the airplane where you want it, because you refuse to use provided controls.

Absolutely agree, but for many the "stick of shame" mentality is still deeply ingrained....