Highest ALT for bird strike?

[robertbartsch]

One possible cause that has been discussed recently involves a bird strike involving a passenger aircraft that recently lost both engines and crashed on approach.

What is the highest ALT that a bird strike could take out both engines in a passenger jet? I think the Sully incident in NYC was on takeoff at around 1 or 2 thousand feet; right?

Thx...

[alexbrett]

A bit of googling finds How Fast and High Do Birds Fly? (http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/How_Fast.html) which suggests that migratory birds can typically be found around 5000 - 20000 feet, though I guess it likely depends on the concentrations of birds as to the chances of taking out both engines simultaneously?

[Jason Burry]

Google and Wikipedia, wonderful tools:

Bird strikes happen most often during takeoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeoff) or landing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing), or during low altitude flight.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_strike#cite_note-6) However, bird strikes have also been reported at high altitudes, some as high as 6,000 m (20,000 ft) to 9,000 m (30,000 ft) above the ground. Bar-headed geese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar-headed_goose) have been seen flying as high as 10,175 m (33,383 ft) above sea level. An aircraft over the Côte d'Ivoire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B4te_d%27Ivoire) collided with a Rüppell's Vulture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCppell%27s_Vulture) at the astonishing altitude of 11,300 m (37,100 ft), the current record avian height.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_strike#cite_note-7) The majority of bird collisions occur near or on airports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport) (90%, according to the ICAO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Civil_Aviation_Organization)) during takeoff, landing and associated phases. According to the FAA wildlife hazard management manual for 2005, less than 8% of strikes occur above 900 m (3,000 ft) and 61% occur at less than 30 m (100 ft).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

J

[Lissart]

Evenin'

When I was doing my initial ATCO training, I learnt that the highest recorded bird strike was a vulture at 32,000 feet! (From memory. It was more than Fl300 anyway!) At the time I was mighty suspicious of this: How could it survive up there? How did it get up there? If this is the case then I'm impressed but surely there must be some mistake in the figures here??

Edit: Quick Wiki search gave the answer here Bird strike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_strike)
A Ruppells Vulture at 37,100ft!!!!!

L

[Cough]

I had one at over 12,000 ft, at night...

Wtf was it doing, flying at night, at that alt?

[Narrow Runway]

Just like Cough, I had one at night overhead Belgrade at about 12,000 feet.

Climb checks just completed and THUD.......right above my LHS window in an A320.

Couldn't tell what kind of bird. It did however, contain a lot of blood.

[Sir George Cayley]

Geese don't land for the night. Various flocking large birds have been observed at heights you wouldn't believe. Condors have a head start being born up a mountain.

You can get close to an ID using DNA testing but not if it's contaminated by human contact. You can tell if it has as the result comes back ape/monkey:ugh:

SGC

[dusk2dawn]

Wtf was it doing, flying at night, at that alt?

The bird was just exercising its birthrights!

Wtf were you doing, flying at night, at that alt?

[Canuckbirdstrike]

You are seven times more likely to have a bird strike at night than during the day. Many migratory species wait until nightfall and then ride the winds at altitude to get a higher groundspeed.

Take a look at some of the migratory bird paths and altitudes available in publications like "Sharing the Skies" and the information is very interesting.

Also the higher altitudes strikes usually involve larger birds and in flocks.

[BOAC]

To answer the OP, for 'both engines', nothing like the altitudes mentioned above. I would hazard a guess at 3-4000' for a big enough 'formation'.

Cough - the obvious answer is "about 15mph".:rolleyes:

[Cough]

Well, that was a little slower than us then...:\

If we were where we should have been, which was about 9000 ft lower (no. 2 to a Seneca.. Don't ask....), the world would be a bird richer today... Ho hum

Only crowning glory on this one was how central we got it. I mean, perfect bulls eye, with fluid going all the way round the radome... Do you think I get to meet Jim Bowen for that one?

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

An EK 777 had a interesting bird strike out of DXB last year outbound to the far east. Hit a flock of birds at just under 11000', lost pressurisation, lots of instruments, AP, athr. Aircraft had just accelerated to 300+ knots. Crew dumped fuel, and did a text book job getting it back into DXB. Flight was an upgrade flight. Photos showed a hole just forward of the #1 flightdeck window, and impact damage on the horiz stab, plus other impacts on the fuselage.
I don't know what the birds were, but the UAE is a major migratory area for birds. The birds were thought to be just above an inversion layer.

SyB :zzz:

[Artificial Horizon]

On the Q400 you have to reduce to birdstrike protection speed beliw 14,000 feet. So I guess that Bombardier reckons 14,000 ft.

[The Dominican]

I have personnaly come across migrating geese at 260, very large formation of maybe 40 birds.

[BOAC]

Gulp! I stand corrected!

[KAG]

No hypoxia for birds...

[lomapaseo]

You are seven times more likely to have a bird strike at night than during the day. Many migratory species wait until nightfall and then ride the winds at altitude to get a higher groundspeed.

Take a look at some of the migratory bird paths and altitudes available in publications like "Sharing the Skies" and the information is very interesting.

Also the higher altitudes strikes usually involve larger birds and in flocks.


I would add a big "If" to this

The probability is also tied to the probability of an aircraft occupying the exact same airspace at the time.

The majority of the multiple engine bird strikes occur during the day at very low altitudes in line with runway headings,

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Highest multiple bird strike I have had was about FL150, at night, coming into Bangkok, the birds were never identified, but it took some washing to clean up the nose of the aircraft, a B744.
Tootle pip!!

[PT6A]

My personal one... 17,000.

Hell of a bang!

[misd-agin]

OK, what's the highest 'fish strike' altitude? :O

[plugster]

FL200 out of Antalya, Turkey. TAS 406. Sounded like somebody opened a bottle of champaign.

[Speedbird48]

Pan Am hit a Goose at 32'0 near Gander many years ago. It hit just below the cockpit widows and put a large dent in the front.

I believe it was United that lost a Viscount over Maryland after a Swan took one of the horizontal stabalizers off at 22'0!!

Bugs at 10'0 or higher is not unusual in the area of thunderstorms. I got the front covered in large squiggy grasshoppers at 12'0 over the mid west as I passed behind a line of thunderstorms.

Speedbird 48

[Big Hammer]

I read many years ago of bugs and birds being taken up to well over 20,000ft by updraughts in stormy conditions. I wonder if building debris (Planks and bricks etc) could also be taken up to these heights?

BH

[Mach E Avelli]

Only last week one of our aircraft had a hawk or some similar big bird take out a windscreen at 19000 feet. Shattered it to the point that the crew thought it prudent to depressurize immediately.
Admittedly it was over mountains in PNG so the bird was only about 4500ft agl.
Maybe birds attack aircraft because they become aggressive when hypoxic?

[Dave Gittins]

My understanding as a mere PPL is that there is a general speed limit of 250 kts below 10,000 to avoid doing too much damage if a bird strike occurs.

I recall seeing a TV programme once where turkeys were blasted at a windscreen by a cannon to demonstrate / validate this.

Have I got this right or has life moved on ?

What is birdstrike protection speed on a Q-400 belw 14 K ? and do other aeroplanes have their own specified limits ?

[Speedbird48]

Dave,

The 250kts below 10'0 is an ATC thing for conrollers benefit and there are some exceptions out there these days.

Bird speed can vary depending on aircraft type.

Chickens are used to check the resistance of windscreens.

I know nothing about the Q400!!

Speedbird 48.

[onetrack]

I can recall a serious incident, probably a couple of decades ago, involving a bloke in a twin flying to an island offshore, on the NW coast of Western Australia, when he clobbered a white-bellied sea eagle.

The eagle shattered the windscreen, hit the PIC in the face and knocked out several of his front teeth. He retained control of the aircraft and landed safely, but it must have been a very nasty experience.
I cannot find any record of the incident, but perhaps I'm using incorrect search terms, or perhaps the incident is buried in archives that are not accessible online.

[Tcraft41]

On final at Iowa City, IA in a Cherokee 140 about 1962 with about ~ 20 hours TT.

Very loud thud and yawed to the left, pushed in some rudder and continued to land. While taxiing back to tie down I noticed a bump near the LE of the left wing.

Closer look showed a ~ 6 inch hole in the LE. By the feathers it was a Mallard duck that was on a reciprocal course. They had to remove part of the outer wing skin pannel to remove the shredded remains.

For those not familiar with Mallards they are big and heavy.

[lomapaseo]

My understanding as a mere PPL is that there is a general speed limit of 250 kts below 10,000 to avoid doing too much damage if a bird strike occurs.

I recall seeing a TV programme once where turkeys were blasted at a windscreen by a cannon to demonstrate / validate this.

Have I got this right or has life moved on ?



sometimes correct, often not.

Regulations are not that specfic. More often experience based (equivalent safety).

Gelatin birds work fine in many test cases and by the time you get them up to 200 kts or so the differences between bird makeups aren't all that significant to the outcome to either the object or the target

Thus the 250 kt 4 lb bird test on aircraft structures seem to cover most of the experience base. Go faster or hit bigger and expect more damage. Most risk for large transports is adressed by the redundancy and/or shielding of critical systems against most bird strike.

It's a matter of a combination of ruggedness and avoidance. The avoidance is aided by keeping below 250 kts in high bird activity areas.

In spite of how fast, how high and how big, anything goes, but probabilities are what counts when it comes to beating what mother nature deals up.

[Dave Gittins]

Thanks Speedbird48 and lomopaseo for putting me straight on 250 kts and 10 K

So 250 isn't hard and fast but it's a matter of exercise more caution if lots are birds are expected .. play the odds.

Shame nobody spotted the geese before Sully got there.

Still interested to know what "birdstrike protection speed beliw 14,000 feet on the Q-400" means.

Maybe have to stroll round to Pier 1 and find a Flybe driver to ask.

[TAAMGuy]

I remember years ago reading a USAF flight safety publication detailing a snake strike by an F-4 at ~FL450. Apparently it had been sucked up in a tornado, which must have been close by. Also read a flight safety report of a B737 hitting a salmon on departure. An eagle was flying by with the fish in it's talons and the '37 scared it into dropping it's dinner. Hit a windscreen if I remember correctly. On the other side of the coin, I hit a bird on touchdown in a Bell 212 with the rotor. It was just a little 'pop' and a very small cloud of feathers and such. So a very low 10' AGL. ;)

[MagnusP]

Excuse a pax intrusion, but this BBC article may be of some interest.

BBC Nature - Bar-headed geese in high-flying wind tunnel test (http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/18641726)

For those not familiar with Mallards they are big and heavy.
And delicious. ;)