EFATO ECAM Actions

[PT6A]

What is the policy in your company for when to start the ECAM actions?

I know most? airlines start them above 400' and when the engine is secure (engine master off and 1st agent discharged) and above acceleration altitude, accelerate and clean up... then once open climb and MCT selected continue with the ECAM.

But then US Airways for example...

Don't do any actions until your established in MCT and OPEN CLIMB (except for some exceptions)

Any other companies do it different? Just got my curiosity going!

[Natstrackalpha]

Not intending to be picky PT6 (with my record?!) but your first method, is the same as the second example - or did I miss yet another point.

[PT6A]

No Natstrack....

Was my fault, what I should of said is that my operator and i think most operators start the initial actions above 400' and US Airways don't start them until they have selected MCT and Open Climb (ie they dont secure the engine first, except for severe vibration etc)

Make more sense?

[FourTrails]

Generally (but there are exceptions) once above 400ft and failure has been agreed and PF has called for 'ECAM actions'.



The 'engine secure' stuff is when the engine has been secured, and given that call (PNF) and above acceleration altitude (typically 1000agl) the ECAM is stopped, 'push to level' is selected and aircraft accelerates to permit flap retraction followed by climb away at green dot & thrust to MCT.
Then complete ECAM etc....

[PT6A]

FT, thats correct and the way we do it.

Was just curious if anyone else was doing it the US airways way of not doing anything until your cleaned up and in MCT OPEN CLIMB.

[Microburst2002]

Now everybody seems to follow the airbus policy of the 400 ft and engine secure or accel height, whichever comes later, for accelerating.

Speaking of the ECAM:
The EFATO ECAM is the same as the cruise or any other flight phase. which makes me wonder if it is a good idea to wait those 30 secs in the hope of having a quick relight. Is it likely that you will recover an engine like that, in take off, after a flame out? I mean, wouldn't it be better to ignore that and go on with the rest of the actions? Specially if damage is obvious...

[PT6A]

So it is just US Airways doing it different? That seems to be the theme.

They don't issue the FCOM's or have them on their aircraft, but completely devised and published their own operational and procedures manuals.

[OPEN DES]

Hi PT6A,

If I remember correctly Iberia does the same as US Airways: no ECAM until established in the final segment, i.e. MCT/OP CLB/green dot except for ENG FIRE/ENG STALL.

The EFATO ECAM is the same as the cruise or any other flight phase. which makes me wonder if it is a good idea to wait those 30 secs in the hope of having a quick relight. Is it likely that you will recover an engine like that, in take off, after a flame out? I mean, wouldn't it be better to ignore that and go on with the rest of the actions? Specially if damage is obvious...

True. But remember that the 30sec has no countdown timer because there is a bit of judgment involved:

Many times you´ll hear that the FADEC/ECU will attempt an autorelight for 30sec, this is not entirely true as it´s a matter of N2 rotation rather than time.

-Below 400ft when ECAM has not been started yet, the FADEC/ECU will attempt an autorelight with dual ignition after the detection of the flame out. Then when no relight occurs before N2 reaches 40% the ignition is discontinued.
-At 400ft, ECAM ACTIONS start with "IGN/START“ to confirm the auto-ignition.
If the relight does not occur before N2 drops below 47 % in this case, then the FADEC/ECU transitions to an auto start sequence.
Here start the famous 30 seconds, you might want to monitor provided that you have some N2 (no damage). Also keep in mind that an autorelight might have started already well before the ECAM was started anyway.
It takes approximately 15 seconds to read the ECAM and retard affected thrust lever to idle Then an additional 5 second delay to read:
• ''If no relight after 30 seconds.... ENGINE MASTER(affected ).....OFF”
• Logically when PNF eyes are back on EWD engine parameters to monitor an eventual relight, the 30 seconds are already gone.

All a bit complicated but in short: no need to time anything! If DAMAGE, forget about the timing all together.
Hope it helps.

Regards

[Natstrackalpha]

No Natstrack....

Was my fault, what I should of said is that my operator and i think most operators start the initial actions above 400' and US Airways don't start them until they have selected MCT and Open Climb (ie they dont secure the engine first, except for severe vibration etc)

Make more sense?


Goddit.........

[Microburst2002]

OP DES

Thanks for that info, I didn't have so much detail about that? Is it FCOM or other source, perhaps?

I have always wondered: When does the 30 sec count begin?

Also recall a simulator, somewhere in the world, where this countdown was in the ECAM itself. Not in the sims I use now.

This 30 secs and a low accel alt make it very difficult to do secure the engine timely.

Which by the way I think it is an important thing. I wouldn't delay it unnecessarily. There are flame outs, there are engine failures with immediate damage and there are engine failures with little damage but potentially much more damage if not secured. Securing the engine timely can save problems and a lot of money too.

[Right Way Up]

except for some exceptions

This seems to be the key, what are US Airways exceptions?

[Blinkz]

You are all missing the most important criteria for the start of ECAM. The aircraft MUST be stabilised and climbing away.

At my company primary ECAM actions occur at 400ft AGL AND when the aircraft is stabilised. The primary actions depend on the failure, with damage it is up to the first agent. If its just a flame out it could be THR LVR to idle and ENG MODE to IGN.

The 30 sec countdown depends on the MSN of the aircraft, the new ones do it for you.

We then wait until MFRA, clean up and once MCT is set then we continue ECAM actions.

I think not doing any ECAM until MCT seems strange, you need to deal with fire/damage asap.

[PT6A]

2d-12 Takeoff

Loss of Thrust At or Above V1

2d.8 Loss of Thrust At or Above V1

2d.8.1 General. In the event of a single engine malfunction accompanied by a loss of thrust at or above V1, follow the “Loss of Thrust At or Above V1” guidance.

If the engine is still producing normal thrust (such as an engine fire or compressor/stall), clean up using the normal takeoff profile except comply with runway specific “Engine Failure - Takeoff” procedure (if published); otherwise, fly runway heading.

Considerations. The PF must fly the aircraft and not be distracted trying to analyze the problem while the aircraft is in a critical phase of flight.

Normally, the safest course of action is to accomplish the applicable ECAM/ QRH procedure(s) after the flaps are up and the desired climb speed has been attained. However, under compelling circumstances such as severe vibration, adverse flight characteristics, etc., it may be necessary to accomplish the ECAM/QRH procedure(s) as early as 400 ft. AFE.

Takeoff Performance. Takeoff performance using an assumed temperature is predicated on an engine failure, thus advancing thrust may not be necessary to maintain safe flight. However, additional thrust is available and must be used if necessary to sustain safe flight.

[OPEN DES]

@microburst

Remember that EOAA is a minimum. Max EOAA is normally limited by 10min at TOGA so no rush to secure the engine.
Source is airbus instructor standardisation meeting 2012 and instructor directives 2008 I recall.
I am unaware of an automatic 30sec countdown, timing is not always relevant, despite using the latest standards sims.

Take care!!!

[Right Way Up]

Blinks,

Eng rundown.........do you not select master off?

PT6A, thanks for the info. Sounds too complicated for me.....the handbook could lead crews to finding out the fire is inextinguishable too far from a runway for my liking.

[Blinkz]

Nope, eng mode selector goes to IGN and the thrust lever goes to idle if we've had a run down with no damage. This allows the FADEC to attempt a relight.

[MD83FO]

on the hudson river final report it said very clearly that the auto start would begin when the thrust lever is set at idle, a step which was accomplished unnecesarily as both engines were running at an auto limited thrust by the fadecs.
is this engine specific ? or are there too many miths running around.

i think what OD states makes more sense.

[ANCPER]

Don't think it's limited to US, I've flown for 4 AB operators and all did nothing until clean unless Fire/Severe dam/Separation. 2 of the 4 Boeing as well and the same deal.

[vilas]

What OP DES has stated is the Airbus recommended procedure and barring one odd exception everybody follows it. From that calculation of 30 seconds from engine mode selector is put to ignition a slight pause before putting engine master off is all that is required. Does anyone know the logic behind the US airways procedure? and what is their One engine acceleration altitude?

[TyroPicard]

PT6A
It looks to me as if that section of the manual (2d.8.1) deals with an engine malfunction where the engine is still producing thrust. In which case their procedure makes absolute sense.

Can you find the “Loss of Thrust At or Above V1” guidance.?


Is there a 2d.8.2 or 3 or 4 etc?

Either I am barking up the wrong tree, or everyone else is!

[paradisefound]

@ OPEN DES

"Max EOAA is normally limited by 10min at TOGA so no rush to secure the engine."

My understanding is that Take off Thrust (TOGA or FLEX) is limited to 10 minutes.
There was a change in the FCTM which came about 4-5 yrs back. I can't seem to find it now.

Can anyone confirm or give any documentary reference.

Thanks

[vilas]

Microburst & Blinkz
In Airbus there is no automatic countdown of 30 seconds from engine mode selector to ignition. The countdown is available only from fire button push for 10 seconds for first agent discharge. This includes even the latest aircraft.

[FlightDetent]

2 OPDES: "If no relight after 30 s .... "

The line only appears, when after 30s the ENG FAIL condition is still there. Once you see this ECAM blue line, the 30 had already passed (otherwise it is not displayed). Then:

One shall look at the engine if perhaps relight is actually in progress...
. if it is > just stand by and wait/hope for the engine to come alive
. if it is not > proceed as indicated.

In a proper SIM, just observe when "If no relight" line is introduced on the screen. Approx 31 s after the ENG 1(2) FAIL had been indicated.

[vilas]

FD
What is exactly a proper SIM? The latest SIM is 1.8 STD. earlier one 1.7, 1.6 and it goes backward which one are you referring to?

[FlightDetent]

Vilas, sir

let me check what is the current standard ...

[vilas]

Flight Detent
Are you talking about 30 seconds from lift off which in this case is also from engine fail? Below from Airbus:
(When engine fails after V1) since aircraft is in flight phase 4 or 5 the only thing that is triggered on ECAM is "ENGINE START SEL....IGN" all other appropriate procedures beginning by "THRUST LEVER....IDLE" will be shown in flight phase 6 (1500feet AGL) or 30 seconds after lift off. These logics ensure that aircraft is above the required 400 feet AGL before the ECAM procedure is initiated."
Same thing you will observe if engine fails below 1500 feet during go round. The ECAM appears after 30 seconds or at1500 feet. So ECAM ACTIONS themselves appear after this 30 seconds. The timing we are talking starts when we manually put the Engine start Selector to ignition. However the calculation of those 30 seconds given by OP DES is correct.

[OPEN DES]

Hi guys, thanks for the feedback.
Nothing to add I think.
KISS:
After putting eng mode sel to IGN: take a deep breath, no sign of relight.. Continue ECAM disregarding 30s.
Some earlier sims didn't have the 30sec mentioned at all. Latest STD: 30sec displayed... But never with a countdown.. Hence some of the confusion.
All the best

[vilas]

john smith
That is not correct. Read OP DES post. This 30 seconds start from when you select Engine mode selector to ignition.

[ZFT]

Vilas,

FYI - Airbus have now released Std 1.9

[vilas]

john smith
You have misunderstood the line. What I and OP DES wrote says it all but I will put it together for you. When engine fails after V1 the ECU detects a flame out and attempts a relight by energising dual auto ignition but since the aircraft is in flight phase 4 or 5 you only see on ECAM ENG START SEL...IGNITION. The full ECAM starting with THR LEVER..IDLE appears at 1500 feet(in phase 6) or 30 seconds after the failure ). These 30 seconds are not the ones we are talking about. After the ignition comes on the ECU does not time 30 seconds but monitors N2. If N2 drops below 40% the ignition is turned off. This is the end of auto relight. Now when ECAM appears and you select mode selector to IGN/START then you time 30 seconds. Here also ECU monitors the N2 and if N2 falls or remains below 47% N2 it attempts another auto start that is why you need to wait 30 seconds from then. When you select the ignition it termed as confirming auto relight.

[vilas]

ZFT
This must be the latest development. I don't seem to locate it. Toulouse doesn't have it. 1.9 manual is not published. Where did you find it? In any case the issue was that there is no self timer for 30 seconds for relight. Because as stated before the ECU monitors the N2 and not the time.

[vilas]

ZFT
Airbus has released last month 1.8b. May be you meant that. There is no 1.9 yet.

[ZFT]

vilas

Airbus standard 1.9 for A320 simulators SB-A320-1.9.0 issue 1 Ref D00626100 was issued by G05 on 24/04/2014 ( I wasn't making any comment on the relight issue, just the latest available standard)

[vilas]

ZFT
Thanks for the reference. I think because of sharklets and many MOIs it was due.

[ZFT]

Vilas,

The significant training impact of 1.9 seems to be ROPS, ATSAW and AP/FD-TCAS.

The AP/FD-TCAS is interesting as this function was recently the subject of an FAA and EASA AD on the A330 and has been mandated to be disabled.

[vilas]

john smith
I quoted what is from Airbus itself. I am sure you have not seen the Airbus reply yourself. You are still confusing two issues Timing does not start from FADEC switching on ignition but from manual selection of Engine mode selector to ignition and . However you don't need to time it because: Reproducing Airbus document



Do I read the chronometer to monitor the 30 seconds? Not required






At 400ft, ECAM ACTIONS start with "IGN/START".
If the relight does not occur before N2 drops below 47 %, then the FADEC transitions
to an auto start sequence.
Here start the famous 30 seconds, you might want to monitor.
• It takes approximately 15 seconds to read the ECAM and retard affected thrust lever to idle
• Then an additional 5 second delay to read:







''If no relight after 30 seconds.... ENGINE MASTER(affected ).....OFF"
Logically when PNF eyes are back on EWD engine parameters to monitor an eventual relight, the 30 seconds are already gone.



But this is not same as what you are saying.

[vilas]

ZFT
The TCAS/FD mode is supposed to be automatic right? I have seen the presentation. At it appeared bit scary because of the time factor involved if auto goes awry. Have you seen 1.9 installed yourself. I have worked on 1.7 and 1.8.

[ZFT]

Vilas,

No, it's too soon after release for the sim OEMs to get to grips with it I suspect. We were looking to upgrade the A330 about now but Airbus have deferred this AP/TCAS feature until at least March 2015 and the next release (after 2.5.X I assume).

Are there any tangible differences between 1.7.1 and 1.8 for training?

[vilas]

ZFT
Since they introduced BUSS, IFLD, back up NAV etc and they went digital. So they went to 1.7 and 1.8 Not much difference between them really

[MD83FO]

Does this apply to both engine types?

[vilas]

Md83
What are you referring to?

[MD83FO]

The 47% N2 vilas thank you.

[vilas]

MD
Airbus did not specify the engine. But what it means is that there is a threshold for relight taking place that is monitored by FADEC and not the time. Below that threshold (above 400ft) it attempts an auto start and for that it requires manual ignition. This all gets over in 30 seconds from the time you select ignition and if unsuccessful you move on.

[MD83FO]

Doesnt an autostart require crossbleed at such low speeds?

[vilas]

This is a quick wind milling relight attempt before N2 drops low. If you see Engine Restart flight envelope, below 18% N2 (CFM) you need starter assist. If this fails you will attempt starter assisted relight later (with no damage).

[MD83FO]

Ok then that makes sense, if the spool has dropped below 18 then much needless to wait.

[Gryphon]

Coming back to the initial question, when do you think is the right moment to contact ATC with the mayday?
Fly and Navigate first, but if you are going to deviate from the cleared SID, a short "mayday, standby" will be helpful.

Maybe this 30 sec ECAM line is a good moment if everything is under control?

Thanks.

[vilas]

Gryphon
Communicate is flexible action. If you are deviating then you can give it before deviating, ECAM stopped call given then resumed again. If continuing till clean up then after retraction to flap1 there is a big gap of inactivity. Generally for Engine fail it is PAN call.

[vilas]

I used the word generally because I am aware for some companies it is MAY DAY.

[FlightDetent]

Vilas: to me the issue with 30 sec is not clear yet, but meanwhile wanted to say thanks for contributions. Keep the brain busy.

[dream747]

In my company's FCOM under the ENG 1(2) FAIL abnormal and emergency procedure there is a line that states:

In flight:
ENG MODE SEL......................................................... ...........................................IGN Selection of continuous ignition confirms the immediate relight attempt made by the FADEC.

It does seem that the 30s starts from the selection of the engine mode selector to IGN then?

[dream747]

Thanks I should have read your quote clearer that the FCOM will be updated!

[FlightDetent]

JS: Good.

See my initial post no 23: (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/487305-efato-ecam-actions-2.html#post8469118)

The line only appears, when after 30s the ENG FAIL condition is still there. Once you see this ECAM blue line, the 30 had already passed (otherwise it is not displayed). Then:

One shall look at the engine if perhaps relight is actually in progress...
. if it is > just stand by and wait/hope for the engine to come alive
. if it is not > proceed as indicated.

[vilas]

FD
Do you have any documentary reference about what you are stating? Because what JS has produced is incomplete. I can vouch for OP DES post because I have those documents. Reproduced below:


Content:


Engine failed after V1


Question:


When are triggered “ENG START SEL … IGN” and “THR LEVER…..IDLE” on ECAM after Take off.


Answer:


In case of an ENG FAIL, only:


“ENG START SEL … IGN” is triggered since the aircraft is in flight phase 4 or 5. All others appropriate procedure beginning by: “THR LEVER…..IDLE” will be shown in flight phase 6 (1500 feet AGL) or 30 seconds after the lift off.


These logics ensure that the aircraft is above the required 400 feet AGL before the ECAM procedure is initiated.


Content:


Engine failure after V1, timing 30 sec.


Question:


On engine failure ECAM procedure is written:


. IF NO RELIGHT AFTER 30 S


ENG MASTER X ……………………….OFF


30 seconds from when or where?


Answer:


The 1st “ timer “(transparent to the crew) begins at the ECU failure detection. In fact, it is not a question of time but N2 rotation.


If flameout detected, ECU automatically energizes dual ignition.


Below 400 ft, when ignition has not been manually selected (rotary selector "norm", Ecam actions not started yet), and a relight does not occur before corrected N2 is below 40 percent, then ignition is discontinued and a complete air start sequence must be initiated; end of “auto relight” by ECU.


Above 400ft (Ecam actions started) ignition manually selected (rotary selector "ign/start") and a relight does not occur before N2 is below 47 %, then the FADEC will transition to an auto start sequence. There are the famous 30 seconds. Timing (30 seconds) starts as soon as Engine mode selector is set to START position and should be monitored by the crew by the mean of ‘’TAKE OFF CHRONO START’’ action;no further chrono start required for this.
If this auto start fails, the engine must be shutdown by setting Master switch OFF after 30 seconds in order to recycle FADEC and probably perform a “manual” relight in flight, if no damage.

[vilas]

john
First I want to make it clear that this is not at all between you and me. This particular subject was prone to misunderstanding even in Toulouse. What I have quoted is the answers given by Airbus industry to their own instructor. Now coming to the question itself there was never any doubt that the first timing starts at the detection of engine failure by ECU but as mentioned by Airbus it is not timing but monitoring of N2. This and above 400ft auto relight is the difference in what you say and what was stated earlier. This off course was old but in April 2012 when the subject came up again Airbus while maintaining this earlier explanation gave further brake down of 30 seconds as quoted by OP DES that timing of 30 sec above 400ft starts with Eng Mode sel ignition and by the time you read ECAM 30 secs are almost over. That is why I am looking for something which is crystal clear and without any doubt. However I will get back with either confirmation of your info or some other angle.

[MD83FO]

would be great to see this in written form so i can justify it in the simulator when the instructor asks why i didn't wait 30 seconds upon reading that action.

[vilas]

john_smith
I did some search in FCOM and came out with two different procedures for different MSN numbers. One says if no relight after 30 seconds engine master off and 30 seconds count down start as soon as engine fail alert is triggered. Also there is sign after the word count down the meaning of which is applicable if equipment is fitted. The second procedure omits the 30seconds totally and says if no relight engine master off. However this is not specific to EFATO. So I am looking for what is that MOD or how does it fit in EFATO.