Aim to centerline by landing

[Dworkin0415]

Dear all
I have another question which is about landing by Cessna 152.

My flight time is almost 30 hours, and landing 17 times(yes, we still are alive)

While we are approaching runway, my instructor don't tell me how can do, just ask me to use right rudder.

Because he said I always a little bit on left side and not tracking on center line.

But I thought I am aiming on center line. What is going on?
Does not use my right leg to aim runway center line?

Any photos or videos can help me?

Thank you so much.

[pudoc]

Landing is like riding a bike, I can tell you how to do it but you have to figure it out yourself.

When you think about it, flying in from a few miles at 1000ft in a 152 to then land on a small line is pretty hard really. I was never spot on the centre line at 30 hours. Not even commercial pilots are spot on the centreline 100% of the time, so don't worry too much about being dead on it.

Something to remember is that the center line isn't directly down your eye sight. So for your nose gear to hit the centreline, you eyes sight will be to the left of the line. If your eyes match up with the centreline, then you are not on it and you are probably slightly to the right of the center line.

I don't really know what to suggest without being there and seeing you land myself.

Ask your instructor why he asked you to use right rudder and tell him you think you land on the center line and don't understand why he says you are not. He will explain it. Maybe it was just the wind or could be something else.

[sevenstrokeroll]

think of it this way....

put the LINE between your legs


also, buy and read and memorize the book: "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang langweische

[Luke SkyToddler]

It's real simple

If you keep landing on the left of the centreline - aim to land on the right. And you'll hit the middle.

Don't use rudder to adjust your centreline tracking (except for a crosswind landing) - just use the rudder to keep the ball in the middle.

[zondaracer]

Here is a trick that my first instructor taught me...

On approach, look up and down the runway. Constantly move your focus from the far end of the runway to the approach end and back constantly. If your eyes are moving up and down, you are lined up. If your eyes move at a slight diagonal, then you aren't lined up.

[de facto]

If you have a clockwise propeller,i suggest you get an anticlockwise one so you will drift to the right instead,breaks the monotony...:E

If you keep landing on the left of the centreline - aim to land on the right. And you'll hit the middle.

Seriously?:eek:


I think your instructor got it right.....use right rudder when you enter your flare.

[mad_jock]

Its quite common for pilots to favour one side of the line.

[de facto]

If you keep landing on the left of the centreline - aim to land on the right. And you'll hit the middle.

You mean Commonwealth students favor the left and the rest the right?:p

[mad_jock]

De facto it seems actually to be linked to which handed they are.

[Flyingmac]

If the runway you are using has a painted centreline, just take the same line for landing that you use for take-off.

If there is centreline lighting, avoid running over the lights. Those little wheels don't like it. Bump, bump, bump,bump.:=

[Pace]

Landing on the centre line is really all about feeling the winds and compensating for those winds all the way down the approach.
If you take a zero wind day landing on the centreline is purely about lining the aircraft up at say 5 miles and flying a straight line to the centre of the runway.
Now add wind which will change down the approach and you will probably be crabbing in! Ie the nose will be pointing left or right of the centreline which will now be left or right of the nose.
As those winds change direction or strength as you gain more experience you will automatically compensate so that it becomes second nature.
They always say a good landing comes from a good approach which means a stable approach.
Work more on maintaining the centreline down the approach and the last bit will become easy.

Pace

[maehhh]

keep the centre line "between the legs"... works even in crosswind :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

"Speedbird 01 you are a little left of centreline".

"Affirmative, and my co-pilot is a little to the right".

G :E

[Tigger_Too]

A C-152 is a cramped affair. The centre of each seat is almost exactly 12 inches/30 cm from the centre of the aircraft. If you are consistently touching down within 30 cm of the runway centreline after 30 hours total flying time, you are doing all right, old son. I would even recommend it if the runway has centreline lighting!

[mad_jock]

Or if your a scottish instructor its

"get ya bollocks on the centerline"


Or as one young lady FO put it.

"Right hand circuit visual approach stabilised by 500ft, Vref +10 to 100ft Vref over the lights and a slug trail down the center line from 2 miles out any questions?"

[worldpilot]

Obviously, your landing is good, but your instructor wants you to better use the available width of the RWY. To really understand what your instructor is emphasizing, I would advice you to try crosswind landing. During crosswind landing, if you maneuver too far left or right, depending on the wind circumstances, you might find yourself touching down at an area that you didn't anticipate. So, try to improve your situational awareness of the flight envelope in relation to the RWY by doing a lot of landings.

Yes, the right rudder is one of the variables you have at your control, especially during landing.

Happy landings.:cool:

WP

[1800ed]

I always used to end up left of the center line - my instructor said it was because I held the stick left handed and rested my elbow on an armrest in the aircraft I used to fly. This meant I indadvertedly ended up flying slightly left, apparently.

Possible theory?

[BackPacker]

Possible theory?

Might be.

A well known issue with early aerobatics pilots is that "stick straight back" is very hard to do. Because the force generated by your arm is never straight back, but in the direction of your elbow (partly sideways, typically under a 30-45 degree angle), the stick doesn't go straight back in a pitch up. This leads to skewed loops and so forth.

Maybe the same thing is happening in your flare.

The other reason might be the secondary effect (both roll and yaw) from closing the throttle.

To verify that this is indeed the cause, look at the end of the runway just above the coaming, and see what the coaming is doing relative to the horizon when you close the throttle, and when you flare the aircraft. You might detect roll and/or yaw that way, so you know how to correct next time.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

With low power or no power on short final, you'll be using LEFT rudder in a C150 to keep the ball in the middle. Your touchdown position relative to the centrline isn't controlled by a rudder input, but by flying the aeroplane down the extended centreline with the controls in balance (ball in the middle).

Except in a wing-down crosswind approach - but I don't like those, much preferring the 'crab' method, where the above always applies, crosswind or no.

[RTN11]

Find an airfield that has runway and taxiway center line lights. When you take off, land or taxi bang on the centerline you get a nice little bump through the noseleg. You then very quickly become accustomed to how the picture looks when on center and can apply this wherever you go.

[The500man]

In something as little as a C152 why does it matter? If you put yourself on the centerline and the nose wheel is 6 inches to the right of it why does it matter? I'd be more concerned with landing straight and on any reasonable part of the runway, but maybe I'm just sloppy. :)

If you're landing on a tight farm strip chances are there won't be a centerline, and in the future if you are flying something where it really matters (A380), you'll probably have a more experienced guy sitting next to you that you can ask until you get it down perfectly.

[Genghis the Engineer]

6" off the centreline is no issues, 2/3 of the way from the centreline to the edge, which I've seen on occasion, perhaps is worthy of some comments?

G

[The500man]

How far is too far? 1/3? 1/2? Given the tolerances for altitude holding and maintaining correct heading in the PPL, is it surprising that there is no guidance for how far you can be from the centreline on touchdown? I suspect it's because everybody gets close enough. ;)

As long as your wing tips are within the runway (not including big jumbos that are wider than the runway) that should be considered okay if a good landing is one you can walk away from. Obviously the closer the better but why worry about even a few feet?

Taxiing on the centreline of a taxiway is probably more important wouldn't you say? Some taxiways are very narrow.

[mad_jock]

As long as they straddle the line with the main gear. I usually leave them alone.

And taking the piss usually works better than nagging.

"Are you lined up on the center line or the edge lights?"

"Ok don't aim for the center line try and put your RH main wheel on it" (if they always land to the right hand side).

"I have told you that the :mad: runway doens't work like a road haven't I?"

"you know we don't get a discount for only using half the width don't you"

" you need now to land on the other side to even the runway wear up, I think that side is sinking a bit after your last three"

[piperboy84]

Its quite common for pilots to favour one side of the line.

I actually take this theory a bit farther, regardless of where the wind is i always seem to touch down way to the left or right then swerve through the centreline, then frantically try to recover with a more shallow turn back through the centreline again, ending up on the edge next to the long grass. None of this is intentional nor is it good practice, however it does give me a comprehensive audit of the entire grass strip surface and allows me to make mental notes of which bits need rolling or resown

[mad_jock]

Smoother on the controls and thats also quite common for crab to the flare and "kick" off the drift. Everything is a bit to dynamic for most and you basically unstablising the aircraft in the last two feet off the deck.

I personally wouldn't fly the whole approach crossed controls but usually do it just before the flare.

[piperboy84]

Ever noticed that your error band is proportional to the width of the runway?

Big Time !!! It's funny when I land away in the tractor "tramlines" of barley stubble or young wheat fields I nail it right down the tracks ( probably coz i have too, and don't want to tear up the young wheat) but when landing at my home field which is 30 yards wide I am all over the place

[mad_jock]

Put some tractor lines up your home field then :D

[worldpilot]

Is this landing centerline enough??

Cirrus SR20 Landing at Augsburg - EDMA - YouTube

WP

[EpsilonVaz]

Keep the centre line between your ***********, never fails.

[piperboy84]

worldpilot
Is this landing centerline enough??

Nobody likes a show off !!!!!

LOL

[worldpilot]

a practical display sometimes enhances the big picture.:D

[The500man]

Nice landing worldpilot, although I thought the point of flying a Cirrus was to fly over your back garden and then pull the red handle! ;)

[Miken100]

Agree with much said on here... Shaggy's post particularly helpful... you shouldn't be lining up with the centreline on landing but as you turn final and then track it all the way down...

Good landings come from accurately flown circuits/approaches and not at the last 30 feet...

Good luck, Mike

[Pace]

Surely we are talking about offsetting drift and being able to sense winds and the wind speed /direction changes?

The first place to practice this is away from the ground getting used to flying a fixed line.

GPS can be a help here especially if you have an OBS where you can set the extended centreline to an airfield runway magnetic course.
You can then practice flying the magenta centreline from 25 miles out all the way in.

Failing this a line on the map and visual points.

But really its about reading winds and being able to compensate for them whether close to the ground or in the air.

Its about commanding your aircraft and not being a semi passenger.
Its about accurate flying!

You taxi on the taxiway yellow lines not to the left or right so why land left or right of the centreline to me that is shoddy flying.

There is one situation where you may elect to fly say the right side of the centreline and that could be in very strong crosswinds where you may elect to give yourself more room for error if the winds are very gusty and you are challenged but even that may be frowned on by many.

If you cannot get this right in the early days of flying how can you ever expect to fly an accurate ILS in the future?

Pace

[FOUR REDS]

The O.P stated:
But I thought I am aiming on center line. What is going on?

Some thoughts:
Are you flying to the Threshold at an angle or are you trying to get early onto the extended centreline?
Look at the first video clip of Worldpilot. Can you see that initially he is NOT on the centreline?

Are you freezing-up on the rudder pedals and your instructor is gently reminding you to use rudder too?

Personally I have no problem with a small rudder input to move over and thus keeping wings level and runway aspect the same without upsetting the applecart with only input of ailerons.

[The500man]

I think the OPs problem is he is trying to account for not sitting on the aircrafts centerline and aiming to put the centerline down his right leg.

I was told to line up and put myself dead on the centerline. If you do this and then ask your instructor at a mile out if he is dead on the centerline, I bet he says he is.

If you are crabbing in and then switching to wing down near the ground, you are far better off using slight aileron to hold the centerline then trying to use rudder, because you want to make sure you land straight. Straight off centerline is better than crooked on it.

I was also told if I landed to one side, it was better to stay there and track straight with the runway. Trying to recover the centerline is more than likely going to end up with you doing something like piperboy84 described; zig-zagging across the centerline.

[thing]

I land to the left 95% of the time. I can land on the centreline if I really think about it but it just feels natural to me to land slightly left. I also tend to taxi on the left side of the taxiway..........

I've thought about this and I think it's because I've driven on the left for the last 40 years, I feel like I'm driving down the 'middle of the road' if I'm on the centreline. Just doesn't feel right.

I might add that my home airfield has a runway and taxiways you could probably take off from widthways. If I'm landing/taxiing at a small grass strip then the amount of 'leftness' is proportional to the width of the runway, so it might just be 6 inches or so on a narrow strip, but it's still there. I've talked about this to one of our club members who is also a very experienced airline pilot and he said don't worry about it, a surprising amount of airline pilots don't land on the centreline.

I was also told if I landed to one side, it was better to stay there and track straight with the runway. Trying to recover the centerline is more than likely going to end up with you doing something like piperboy84 described; zig-zagging across the centerline.

Did that yesterday after taking a young lady for a trip, landed slightly left as usual but perfectly straight and decided to get on the centreline for a bit of show. Finished up zigzagging down the middle like a drunk tramp.

[Pace]

Thing

Not so important if you are taxiing a light aircraft but when you get to fly large wingspan aircraft staying on the centreline on the taxiway tends to keep you clear from hitting things :) also not going off course and up the wrong taxiway at bigger airports.
Landing is the same as its more critical if your aircraft fills a biiger portion of the runway :E

Pace

[thing]

The chances of me flying anything that big are er...fairly slim. By landing left I don't mean I land in the gutter by the way, just a bit left, you probably wouldn't notice if I hadn't mentioned it. Anyway, I pay the bloody landing fees to use all of the runway, I'm just exercising my rights as a paying customer...:)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I often fly 10m wingspan microlights from a 15m wide strip with telegraph lines parallel with, and not far off the side of the runway. I like the centreline!

G

[24Carrot]

Just a guess, based on the original post. It sounds like the difficulty is on final approach rather than the flare, and the poster can't see that he is off centre-line.

If the FI is recommending right rudder, you may be flying with crossed controls, and your wings may not be level? Are you and the FI the same weight?

When you are lined up with the runway, the runway makes a 90 degree angle with the horizon. This is true even if you are banked.

Having the runway at 90 degrees to the coaming means nothing, unless your wings are level. Perhaps you are confusing the two?

I didn't think about this until recently when I was doing some night flying, without much of a horizon, and I never seemed to line up properly until I got close to the threshold. So I went and stared at some kitchen tiles for a bit, tilting my head as required.:8

Once you get close to the threshold, the runway becomes more of a shape, and it is much more obvious what is happening. Technically, even at the threshold you still need the centre-line at 90 degrees to the horizon, but the threshold itself is parallel to the horizon, so you just need the centre-line at 90 degrees to the threshold. Which is what everybody does instinctively, without thinking about angles at all!:ok:

[thing]

So I went and stared at some kitchen tiles for a bit, tilting my head as required.

I do that when I'm drunk too.

[24Carrot]

I do that when I'm drunk too.

That was scientific research!

Now, when I'm drunk, I hold out my arms and make the aeroplane noises too!:cool:

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