Equipment list to be IFR legal in the UK

[piperboy84]

Apart from the standard basic six instruments (DG,AI,TC etc) what nav/com equipment, and in what quantities must an aircraft be equipped with to be legal to fly IFR in the UK?

[bookworm]

You need to refer to Schedule 5 of the ANO available here (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=226). It's a little too complex to answer directly unless you're more specific about circumstances.

[achimha]

What is interesting here is that most countries have rules for


aircraft registered in the country
aircraft entering the airspace of the country


While you might only consider the first, the second can bite you during your international travel. One example is that you are prohibited from entering the airspace of Germany on an IFR flight plan unless you have a DME. Probably happens hundreds of times every day but is illegal and can be fined up to € 50,000.

[peterh337]

Yes; the State of Registry mandates what equipment is to be carried.

On top of that, the owner of the airspace can have his own rules.

You have to comply with both.

That is normal :)

One example is that you are prohibited from entering the airspace of Germany on an IFR flight plan unless you have a DME

I think that is true for every country in Europe.

It's only the ADF carriage bit that has been changing recently.

[achimha]

I think that is true for every country in Europe.

France requires you to carry a DME if you want to use instrument procedures requiring the use of a DME. I have not checked the situation in all countries but I was under impression that most do it like France.

French regulation: article 2.6.4 (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006077971).

[peterh337]

I researched this a few years ago. It may have changed since, of course. It is a constantly changing matrix; near-impossible to keep track of. Like GSM phone/data rates :)

[thing]

France requires you to carry a DME if you want to use instrument procedures requiring the use of a DME.

Would have thought that was a no brainer or am I missing something?

[riverrock83]

Would have thought that was a no brainer or am I missing something?
Some people use GPS...

[achimha]

Would have thought that was a no brainer or am I missing something?

France is a positive exception here. Other countries require you to carry an operational DME even if it's not required for your flight.

[thing]

Some people use GPS... It was the phraseology I was questioning, you're not going to use an ADF for an NDB approach if you aren't carrying an ADF.........

[peterh337]

Oddly enough I think that a prosecution for not carrying a DME would fail if you get a half decent lawyer because a GPS gives you (practically) the same distance readout, and the regs are not (AFAIK) drafted to actually define a DME in terms of its classical functionality. Calling it "distance measuring equipment" (UK ANO wording) is a hostage to fortune and I suspect the UK CAA knows it, which is why there has never been any action against the SR22 fleet.

[piperboy84]

Now THAT is a scary thought for someone who was considering going to the expense of either upgrading an existing VFR aircraft or committing to acquiring the use of one that they think is universally IFR "certified"

It is a constantly changing matrix; near-impossible to keep track of. Like GSM phone/data rates

Using the phone/GSM analogy, I could just imagine cautiously walking into the avionics shop to be met by an overly helpful and smiley sales rep who assures me they fully understand my needs and after closing me on a package that appears to have all the bells and whistles I discover afterwards that it’s not fit for purpose.

Interestingly, European directives for industries such as agriculture are pretty much across the board and do not take geographic/individual countries historical practices or equipment used into consideration, you would think that transport, and especially aviation of all industries would be strictly uniform. Can’t believe Brussels missed that one!

It’s quite a daunting thought to start pulling apart a reasonably recent VFR panel to make space for ancient stuff like ADF’s. I wonder if it’s worth waiting till they are completely redundant before upgrading?. I think the last time I actually used an ADF was in 1996 while flying a Warrior across the US, using the ADF solely to tune into country music stations did break the monotony while crossing the deserts of New Mexico through the Texas panhandle and Arkansas, however the overwhelming theme on this AM band seemed to involve songs about crops failing, the wife leaving and the dog dying intermixed with stern warnings about straying from the path of god which did get a tad tiresome.

Well I guess after that rant the question I have is how does new production IFR aircraft with glass screen panels get around having to install clunky old ADF’s and DME etc. or do they just skirt the law?

[achimha]

Well I guess after that rant the question I have is how does new production IFR aircraft with glass screen panels get around having to install clunky old ADF’s and DME etc. or do they just skirt the law?

Never seen one of those brand new G1000 cockpits with an ugly KN-62 DME fitted next to the screens? A lot of pilots just break the law. I've never heard of anybody adding an ADF to a new airplane although it still appears to be required when doing the North Atlantic route via Iceland.

The DME requirement will probably go away once Galileo is operational. It is understandable that Europe continues to require ground based equipment until there is a GNSS that Europe can control.

[peterh337]

Nobody knows what will happen.

Nobody uses, or pretends to be using, NDBs for enroute navigation. However many approaches are based on them so they are not going away anytime soon. Same with VOR/DME.

DMEs are not going away because they are used by airline INS/FMSs for position fixing (the INS drifts).

You can install a remotely mounted KN63 (http://www.seaerospace.com/king/kn63.htm) DME and a KDI572 (http://www.seaerospace.com/king/kdi572.htm) remote indicator. The old Cirrus bodge where they used to hack a hole in the RHS dash was just a bodge, done by installers whose customers knew no better.

I don't know about remotely mounted ADF options but the KR87 (http://www.seaerospace.com/king/kr87.htm) works well and interfaces to all RMIs, EHSIs and EFIS displays.

Using the phone/GSM analogy, I could just imagine cautiously walking into the avionics shop to be met by an overly helpful and smiley sales rep who assures me they fully understand my needs and after closing me on a package that appears to have all the bells and whistles I discover afterwards that it’s not fit for purpose.

I knew a chap who spent ~£30k but failed to get the paperwork he specified. I don't know how it was resolved eventually because he then died.

[Cobalt]

Achimaha,

You can equip a G1000 system with optional DME and ADF modules. DME integrates nicely as long as it is paired with NAV1. ADF is also well integrated as an RMI needle in the PFD, but AFAIK it is lacking auto-ident as is available for NAV1/2 in the latest G1000's.

ADF and DME frequency setting is accessible via a PFD softkey, so setting a separate DME frequency is possible, but not as easy than on a separate DME.

No reason for ugly botch jobs unless you can't afford the $20,000 these two units cost and buy cheaper, classic avionics from the scrapyard.


Personally, since VOR/ILS/DME are part of the backup for GPS failure, and since flying an ILS/DME procedure with a GPS substituting for the DME can be confusing depending on which waypoints are coded, I would definitely want a DME, legally required or not.

ADF, however... as much personal satisfaction and smugness I derive from flying a nice NDB hold and approach in annual IR renewals, I'll pass that one for any real world IFR flight.

[peterh337]

Flying IFR around Europe without a DME is bonkers, IMHO.

Most of the bigger airports have an ILS - especially if flying across the Schengen boundary in which case you have to go to/from a Customs airport.

Almost no airports have an LPV approach, and almost no aircraft have LPV-capable avionics (by which I mean also an autopilot which can track L+V off that).

So, will you be choosing a GPS approach over an ILS, because you don't have a DME? Somehow I don't think so. You will fly the ILS without a DME. OK if you are not too interested in cross-checking things, and more fun if there is a DME arc on the way in :) All doable of course but a bit tacky.

[1800ed]

which is why there has never been any action against the SR22 fleet

SR22's can have radio DME too. Usually gets hidden behind your keyring though :}

http://edcs.me/files/2012/05/Photo-12-08-2010-16-29-29-1024x764.jpg

[achimha]

So, will you be choosing a GPS approach over an ILS, because you don't have a DME? Somehow I don't think so. You will fly the ILS without a DME. OK if you are not too interested in cross-checking things, and more fun if there is a DME arc on the way in All doable of course but a bit tacky.

If the DME arc is part of the procedure, a Garmin 430/530 will fly it for you. If not, I see no drawback flying a DME arc with my GPS compared to using the DME. DME as altitude cross-check for ILS/VOR -- the DME station should be listed in your GPS database.

I've had trouble with my DME indicating wrong values (too high) so I've gotten used to cross-checking the DME with my VFR GPS. I don't think I will ever again believe in what my DME displays :)

[peterh337]

The DME might be set to indicate zero at a different place...

[englishal]

We have a really old DME with mechanical numbers. I like it, it works well, but the only reason we left it in the panel is due to legal issues, and we'd use the 430 in any situation where we required DME. Of course if the old DME and GPS disagreed I'd probably believe the GPS over the DME. I'd prefer to take it out of the panel and make room for an Ipad3 with 3G and Skydemon really......

[peterh337]

The more basic issue is that any single system can pack up.

I don't believe the stuff about Americans turning off GPS (in any scenario in which private GA, or indeed all civilian traffic, is not immediately grounded anyway) :) :) but if you have only one GPS (and that's true for most IFR tourers) that box could pack up, and then what have you got?

It could pack up due to a hardware failure, or due to some unexplained temporary glitch like this (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/kln94-failure/index.html).

One needs a credible backup, and that has to be either another independent GPS or VOR/DME.

It isn't exactly hard to have a VOR receiver, and anyway ILS capability is an absolute must so you need a LOC/GS receiver and all of those do VORs also.

DMEs are also pretty reliable, as avionics go, and the confirmation of the distance to a beacon is, I find, pretty reassuring when you see it on both the GPS and the DME, within 0.1nm of each other.

If I was going to spend 5 or 10 grand on goodies I would spend it on a decent DME, rather than on TCAS :)

[achimha]

The more basic issue is that any single system can pack up.

The only thing that makes my GPS pack up is my DME :)

Certain frequencies on the DME interfere with GPS, no matter if it's a GNS430W with external antenna, iPhone/iPad, etc. My DME is a 500W King KDM705 taken from a Learjet.

[peterh337]

Yes; that's true.

Also certain VHF settings; the 11th and 13th sub-harmonic of 1575.4MHz.

AC20-138 (http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-138B.pdf) describes the post-installation tests one should do for a BRNAV+ approved installation.

VHF interference is on page 111. I can't immediately find suspect DME settings which can cause your problem, however, but you ought to have it looked at.