The Fall of Singapore: The Great Betrayal -

[Milo Minderbinder]

Just finished screening on BBC2 - will be in iPlayer shortly

Interesting if you want to know just how Japanese naval aviation benefitted from a couple of British spies, and has some interesting early film on - among others - HMS Argus and its aircraft

BBC iPlayer - The Fall of Singapore: The Great Betrayal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01j73yv/The_Fall_of_Singapore_The_Great_Betrayal/)

[Fareastdriver]

I thought it was a great big story jumped up from nothing. The Japanese defeated the Russian Baltic fleet so their ship architects were more than adequate. All the work for Mitsubishi in the twenties was done by a French aircraft designer. The US Navy had its share of carriers in the thirties so the idea was not new.
The letting off that he got in the end is probably a reflection of how little use his information was.
Singapore is a different story.

[pasir]

... Last night information never before known to the public was shown on BBC2 disclosing that thanks to the British Govt and 2 RAF officers (each later suspected of espionage) we naviely or incompetently gifted the Japanese with the knowledge and assistance that enabled Japan to build up and train their powerful fleet that enabled them to strike at Singapore and Pearl Harbour. One of the RAF officers involved was made a Lord
and although MI5 had information on them justifying charges of
Espionage - Churchill had all information and papers locked away for
70/80 years and after the war failed to keep his promise to have a full enquiry and investigation for the fall of Singapore - himself being heavily implicated.

..

[Pontius Navigator]

Remind me whose side Japan was on in WW1?

Japan during World War I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_during_World_War_I)

Don't forget, Italy too was on the allied side in WW1 when she saw which way things were going.

[cliver029]

Was it also a fact that when the Russian and the Japanese fleets were at each
throats before WW1 that some of the each fleets ships were built by Armstrong's in the Tyne side shipyards?

[Archimedes]

... Last night information never before known to the public..
..

Apart from those members of the public who read about it in the Telegraph in 2002, that is.

I've not the time to view the iPlayer, but presume that we're talking the Master of Semphill and Frederick Rutland here? Known about for over a decade at least, even if the National Archives has recently released more documents which add colour but nothing new.

And Sempill wasn't 'made a Lord'. He was the son of a peer, and since all peerages were hereditary until the Life Peerages Act in 1955, he inherited the title; 'made a Lord' suggests he was granted the title as some sort of reward, whereas the fact that he became peer was down to primogeniture, which hasn't been noted for taking espionage, treachery or other misdeeds into account.

[Milo Minderbinder]

"presume that we're talking the Master of Semphill and Frederick Rutland "

Correct
It did a pretty good job of destroying the reputations of both
Essentially the premise was that without those two, Japanese naval aviation would never have reached the peak which enabled it to launch the Pearl Harbour raid, and by implication Japan would not have entered WWII in the way it did
Further that their actions enabled the Japanese to sink the ships defending Singapore : the Price of Wales and Repulse, by naval air action so leaving Malaya open to a beach assault from the east, and in turn leading to the fall of Singapore

[Haraka]

I was amused by the comment of Fareastdriver that:
"All the work for Mitsubishi in the twenties was done by a French aircraft designer"
Herbert Smith of Sopwith ( plus a team of seven other British engineers) was contracted in February 1921 by the Nagoya factory of Mitubishi to assist in the design and manufacture of military aircraft. He led the design on the Navy Type 10 Carrier Fighter, Type 10 Carrier Reconnaissance Aircraft, Type 10 Carrier Torpedo Aircraft, Type 13 Carrier Attack Aircraft, before returning to the U.K. in June 1924.
Then in 1928 British designers , including Smith and G.E. Petty, were involved in the design competition in the U.K. of the subsequent Japanese Navy type 89 Carrier Attack Aircraft, the winning Blackburn design of which flew in the U.K .in late 1929.
Arguably the French must be given full credit for their influence on aircraft design and construction at the beginning of the 20th century, in total contrast to the extended and inconsequential fumbling on the other side of the Atlantic. However, the evolution of Mitsubishi carrier aviation in the '20's is an instance where it can be demonstrated that the British in fact had an overwhelming impact.

[Fareastdriver]

Haraka

You are absolutely right. I cannot find my reference to the French designer who followed on from the Sopwith crowd.

[Haraka]

FarEastDriver.
Was it possibly Henri Vernisse, who worked on some designs with Mitsubishi c.1930?

[izod tester]

The Gloster Aircraft Company sold 50 Sparrowhawk fighters to the Imperial Japanese Navy in 1921. In 1927, 150 Gambet deck landing fighters were license built by Nakajima for service with the Imperial Japanese Navy as Nakajima A1N1s.

The final Folland design for Glosters was the F5/34 which had an uncanny similarity to the Zero.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=187711&d=1281983640

[Fareastdriver]

That's the one. He helped Mitsubishi get into the monoplane era.

Irrespective of who was helping who, the information given, and the effect, was hyped up beyond belief by the TV programme. Japan wa already a capable miltary power when they invaded China, long before Pearl Harbour.

[Milo Minderbinder]

FareastDriver

I rather feel you missed the point - yes the Japanese certainly did have capable military power however the program wasn't about that and nor it deny that
The specific point it was making was about Japanese Naval Air Power - which if the programme was correct was developed from the teachings of the Semphill mission, and from the subsequent underhand dealings of Semphill and Rutland

The point theywere making was that while Japan had progressed to building her own warships (having been taught by the British), she lacked the ability to design and build carriers and to integrate aircraft with them. That imparted skill, and the details of the design of suitable carrier aircraft are what made the Japanese attacks possible.
Without those two, Japan would still have had its capital ships and army, but no carriers, and no carrier aviation

[thunderbird7]

The sacrifice of Singapore was a political decision to protect India, the Jewel in the Crown. Muddled thinking and arrogance assumed an ability to defeat a perceived 'second world' enemy with military might as opposed to competent military thinking.

Singapore was possibly the catalyst that drove true 'combined ops' thinking in future war strategy. The sinking of the POW and Repulse was the last time the Fish-heads thought they could manage without air superiority, although they still have a bit of a problem with it.

It is well known that the Japanese force, striking from Malaya, was on its last legs and perhaps better intelligence would have changed the British response to their attacks. But hey, hindsight is a wonderful thing and as a campaign, it provides great 'what-if' examples for tactics and strategy.

In the meantime, a lot of good men died because the course followed was all that was thought best, and to judge wartime leaders by todays standards of information flow and intelligence gathering would be utterly inappropriate.

Heroes all.

[pasir]

Correct to explain that Sempill 'became' - and was not 'made' a Lord
and yes - true Sempill's involvement had been revealed earlier in
the Telegraph - but makes little differenc to the revelations that Sempill had been in the pay of Japan for some time - and he was as late as
Dec 15th 1941 discovered making phone calls to the Jap embassy (Japan attacked Singapore and Hawaii on Dec 7th - or 8th depending which side of the pedantic date line is chosen).
On the suggestion that Singapores demise was a deliberate sacrifice
by Whitehall - In this latest regurgitation of the numerous failings and events leading to the disaster can be added a further most serious event - the results of which would guarantee to strengthen Japans decision to attack.
In November 1940 the SS Automoden was sunk by the German raider
Atlanta some miles off the Java coast. Before the Automoden sunk the German boarding party recovered a top secret lead weighted bag
containing documents from Whitehall addressed to Air Marshal Brook Popham Singapore giving confidential and most secret details of Singapores and Malayas defences - including strategy weakness and Britains general policy and plans for defence in the Far East in the event of war with Japan - In effect the papers confirmed that Singapores defences were near enough myth and bluff - As history would prove.

...

[Milo Minderbinder]

Can someone explain how the fall of Singapore could possibly contribute to preserving India?
If anything, Singapore protected access to the Indian Ocean from the China Sea. By taking Singapore the Japanese were able to enter the Indian Ocean at will and potentially threaten Burma, Ceylon, India and the African east coast.
In fact the remains of the British fleet had to be withdrawn variously to Africa and (what is now) Diego Garcia to hide until reinforcements could be sent from the Atlantic fleet - leaving India open to an invasion
Happily an option the Japanese chose to decline

[Archimedes]

My point, pasir, is that this was touted as being something earth-shatteringly new, when it isn't. The fact that the Telegraph reported the fact that Sempill was a spy ten years ago means that we got classic oversell of what ought to be an interesting programme. It'd been entirely legitimate for the Beeb to say something along the lines of '... and new information casts an even more astonishing light on the activities of this man, who may ultimately have been protected by Winston Churchill', rather than the sensationalist claims about unknown evidence.

The loss of the papers about Singapore's lack of defences on the Automedon [sic] has also been known about for quite some time as well; there've been at least two books on that published no earlier than five years ago.

Since I've actually co-written a book on the Pacific war (available in all good remainder bins), I did know when the war out there started, thanks.:}

[Pontius Navigator]

pasir, to correct your post, Japan invaded Malaya on 8 Dec 1941. It was not until 7 Feb 1942 that they invaded Singapore and on the 15th Singapore fell. Digressing slightly they then invaded Java on 28 Feb and on 12 Mar Java fell. It was on 28 Feb that a Japanese submarine sank my father's ship which was south of Java.

[500N]

To add to those dates in Feb, they flattened Darwin on the 19th Feb
using 242 planes.

[tucumseh]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc291/exploringtheblue/Japanesewarships.jpg

[tucumseh]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc291/exploringtheblue/Japwarships2.jpg

[pasir]

If we are to be pedantic it may help by pointing out that both Dec 7th and Dec 8th are quoted in various references as being the date upon which Malaya and Hawaii were first attacked by Japan - Something to do with international date lines.

Singapore was attacked by air on the same date - Dec 8th -
The main assault would follow weeks later in Feb 42. In fact
Malaya was invaded some hours before the attack on Pearl Harbour.

...

[Heathrow Harry]

the Japanese didn't need "spies"

they had better leaders, better troops, better ships, better planes and about 5 - 10 times as many of each as the Brits in area

the Far East had been stripped bare because of other needs elsewhere - and TBH, defending the UK Middle East & India was always going to rank wayyyy above Singapore - and rightly so

[tramps]

The programme mentioned a Sqn Ldr who was found guilty and imprisoned as a traitor. It stated that, after his release alone and penniless, he committed suicide.
Were there any repercussions for Semphill, or did he live out his life as the 'Master of Semphill and Frederick Rutland', a free man and (to those around him) free of suspicion?

[pasir]

On the premise that resources in Singapore were stripped bare - From first hand accounts of the situation in 1941 - Singapore (The Gibralter of the East) had little to be stripped of. The complacency of successions of GOCs and The Governor had if anything discouraged such thoughts
to result in absolutely no great construction of defences of any note
- other than its big guns that would prove virtually useless when
eventually called upon - Even its meagre supply of shells would prove
also table for the battle. The hugely expensive great naval base would
also prove to be a white elephant - Destined never to harbour any RN fleet - (the very reason for its existance) and would be gifted virtually intact to a grateful foe - together with Malayan airfields complete it is said with
huge stores of fuel and munitions. Some of the 35,000 Indian troops
were in a state of divided loyalty with Indian Home Rule high on their
agenda at that time and reports that one Indian Regiment had shot and killed its British officers resulting in the entire Indian unit being withdrawn from the line. British and Australian troops having fought their way
down Malaya - crossing the causeway into Singapore would look in vane for evidence of its much vaunted fortifications and bastion which of course did not exist. Even the constructin of public air shelters had been
refused by Singapores Governor Shenton Thomas (Bad for native morale dont you know). Churchill himself had much to answere for regarding
Singapores apathy and lack of preparations and would later be on record for
stating "That Singapore having no landward defences no more entered my mind than that of a batteship being launched without a bottom" !

...

[Archimedes]

Tramps - Sempill became Lord Sempill and Baron of Craigever upon his father's death in 1934 (in fact while his espionage activities on the part of the Japanese were ongoing), and after he was found out he retired to whatever it is that retired peers who are persona non grata in official circles do (in his case, ISTR it was a fair amount of private flying). On his death, the Peerage and the Baronetcy were split, in a confusing tale which involves gender reassignation, hermaphroditism and court battles... In fact, probably a far more interesting (if prurient) and decidedly less well-known bit of history for a BBC documentary.

I know that Frederick Rutland was interned after Pearl Harbor and released when it became clear he wasn't a threat any more (around 1944/45). As I recall, he committed suicide a few years after the war ended.

[Samuel]

I haven't seen the documentary in question as BBC-I-Player is UK only, but I have read the definitive work on the subject: "Singapore Burning" by Colin Smith, first published in 2005. Having done two tours of Singapore, [and spent time on the very same beach where the Japanese landings took place], I think this book does it for me, and he certainly dispels some of the myths.

[k3k3]

It is being repeated on BBC 2 at 2320 BST (in 15 minutes time).

[jonwilly]

I have read much about Singapore and The Greatest Defeat ever suffered by Britain, which is was.
I understand that until jap invaded Malaya the was no mention of, Fortress Singapore, until some jurno came up with the name.
Britain built a First Class Naval Dockyard, to repair Line of Battle Ships, post a major engagement with Japan, which had been noted as the only enemy capable, of taking the Empire's Possessions as early as 1923.
The RN was tasked with the job of protecting the Far East.
Lord Trenchard was of the opinion that the RAF could do the job better and Cheaper.
W.S. Churchill the Chancellor liked the Cheaper idea and became a supporter.
The Army was tasked with, Protecting the Navy Yard, Internal Security and Defeating an enemy on the mainland of Malaya in that order.
Col Percival was sent out mid 30's to study and suggest a defence plan.
He recommended X number of first class divisions and a couple of tank regiments as minimum, this was never supplied out.
A minmum number of Modern Aircraft (Monoplanes) was suggested, about 350 and this also never happened.
The troops and equipment in country where the leftovers from Europe and Mid East, the army divisions having only 2 brigades instead of the normal 3.
You can find comments like
6 weeks in the ranks and 4 spent teaching how to wear boots and march.
10 days ago a civilian on the streets of Sydney.
Sir John Dill CIGS told his successor Alan Brooke
I have done very little about Singapore.
They knew it was coming.

Gen Percival was Army Commander never, Overall Commander, of who there is one comment by Churchill's special adviser
Gaga.

Arther Percival was old school and took the rap for Britain's Greatest Defeat.

john

[Whenurhappy]

Sorry to disagree with you jonwilly (an interesting title in Thailand, n'est pas?)

Fortress Singapore was the title of the British Garrison and British Military Government on the Island (a bit like 'Troops Aldergrove' in Belfast). It was not concocted by a journalist.

I concur that 'Singapore Burning' by Colin Smith is an excellent and sympathetic read; his other book on Vichy France (England's Last War with France) is equally good.

A few years ago I was awarded a Defence Fellowship and studied intelligence aspects of the Malay Peninsular and Singapore. In c 1938 the JIC sent Wg Cdr Wigglesworth to Singapore to conduct a review of the intelligence organisation. After reviewing Combined Intelligence Bureau Malaya (CIBM) Wigglesworth noted:

Here [Singapore], CIBM Officers from all three Services and MI5 pooled and exchanged intelligence across South East Asia. Cooperation was uncommonly good, but sources poor.

He also noted that most material on the Japanese to the Far East Combined Bureau (MI5/SIS regional office) was based on radio intercepts, implying that HUMINT sources were few.

Pre-war Special branch ran particularly effective operations against the Chinese Communists and Japanese agents. From 1931 until 1946, the Sec Gen of the ‘Nanyang’ (Overseas) CHICOM party was a British ‘asset’. However, the Japanese espionage was extremely well organised, better resourced and more than a match for the British.

Post War Lt Gen Perceval played down many of the failings. Colin Smith is more objective. The Japanese were at the end of their supply chain and British denial methods (Jahore causeway, airfield denial) weren’t particularly efficient. The use of gas in a defensive role was even considered. Aircraft were definitely drawn from the 2nd XV (Wirraways, Buffalos, Vildebeests, a handful of Blenheims, for example) and some British troops were poorly trained and some exhibited poor discipline (eg the Australian contingent). Nonetheless the Japanese didn’t get away lightly. They did sustain very high casualty rates (the numbers are not known) and they suffered a fair number of Naval and air losses as well. But in the East, life is cheap.

[Heathrow Harry]

" But in the East, life is cheap"

Who sent 20,000 men to their deaths on the First Day of the Somme??? Tojo????

[Pontius Navigator]

HH, while true you might also say it was a lesson learnt. We no longer had the manpower or stupidity to do that.

As far as sending 2nd echelon forces to the Far East, you might argue that the same logic applied to post-war theatres too.

While Fortress Britain had a 1st rate air force the other air forces had to make do with 2nd echelon. As we could not provide sufficient 1st class assets like V-bombers and all weather fighters until the UK base was equipped then it was inevitable that less capable forces would be deployed with the expectation that they would be reinforced.

By 1942 reinforcement of the Far East would have been but a pipe dream and indeed in 1940 we didn't have the spare monoplane fighters in sufficient numbers.

The point was made that the Japanese were at the end of over-long supply lines. The allied forces had hardly any supply lines at all.

[Whenurhappy]

Almost a 100 years after the Great War, there is still huge British and Commonwealth angst about losses, such as occured on the Somme. The same could not be said about the Japanese view of losses in China and elsewhere.

[Pontius Navigator]

By coincidence there is an obitutary in today's (25 May) Telegraph of an American author who highlighted the change in British attitudes after the First World War, a lesson surely learnt by the US after the Civil War.

[tramps]

Archimedes thank you for your reply.
It was quite shocking to find out that the aristocracy and the elite of this country allowed Semphill to get away with his treachery. Not only did he get away with it he was also allowed to keep his titles!
The blood of many British military personnel and Commonwealth men, women and children was spilt because of his actions; he should have, at the very least, been tarred, feathered and sent to the tower.

[Chugalug2]

tramps:
the elite of this country allowed Semphill to get away with his treachery.
Birds of a feather, old boy. Birds of a feather! The really shocking betrayal of this country by the aristocracy, including Royalty, was set to happen 10 May 1941 at Dungavel House, the home of the 14th Duke of Hamilton, an Air Commodore who was on duty that night at RAF Turnhouse and responsible inter alia for the Air Defence of Scotland. Another Duke though was present at Dungavel, the Duke of Kent, the King's brother, also serving in the RAF as a Group Captain. The airstrip lights were seen to go on but were extinguished about 15 minutes later. The reception committee dispersed.
Later it was learned that an ME110 had crashed not far away near Eaglesham and the pilot captured, having bailed out. He identified himself as Alfred Horne, a friend of the Duke of Hamilton who he asked to speak to. He was soon identified as the Reich Deputy Fuhrer, Albert Hess. His subsequent movements are sketchy, reportedly being held in the Tower of London and Abergaveny.
The Duke of Hamilton was defended in Parliament by Sir Archibald Sinclair, the Secretary of State for Air, saying that "the conduct of the Duke of Hamilton has been in every respect honourable and proper".
On 25 August 1942 the Duke of Kent died in the crash of Sunderland III W4026 on Eagles Mount above Loch More, which bordered the estate of Sir Archibald Sinclair, the Secretary of State for Air. Prince George was supposedly en route from Invergordon to Iceland and hence Newfoundland. Only the tail gunner Andy Jack survived, though he had initially been counted as dead. The final headcount of 15 bodies and the one survivor exceeded the official SOB by one. The Duke's body was found to have a briefcase attached to his wrist by a chain. It was stuffed with high denomination Swedish Kroner Banknotes.
The BOI report is missing.
Rudolph Hess's supposed peregrinations ended finally at Spandau Prison Berlin on 17 August 1987. Death was by hanging, evidenced by the only horizontal ligature suicide known to medical science. Was the dead man Hess?
The Beeb is never likely to run with this story, but other broadcasters have, and Google as always is your friend....

[parabellum]

A really good read about the Japanese secret service is called, "Secret Servants", possibly out of print now but may be obtainable from people like ABEbooks.com etc.

Every single adult Japanese were considered agents with a duty to pass any information at all back, however trivial, it was their duty to the Emperor.

The way information on the disposition of the US navy in 1942 at Pearl Harbour was gather by, among other things, monitoring the laundry labels in the sailor's shirts was fascinating.

Found this via Google:

Secret servants: a history of Japanese espionage - Ronald Seth - Google Books (http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Secret_servants.html?id=sVogAQAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y)

[Genstabler]

Birds of a feather! Was it Albert Hess or Rudolf Hess? Sure looked like Rudolf when I saw him in Spandau in 65.

[Chugalug2]

Ha ha! I wondered who'd spot that one first, Genstabler! It was of course Rudolph, my apologies. I must also have had in mind that other "acceptable face" of Naziism, Albert Speer.
I think we all agree that the inmate of Spandau totally resembled Hess, though strangely minus his reported WW1 battle scars on his upper body. To be honest I have no idea whether he was or was not the real man. What is known is that the real man flew to and bailed out over enemy territory demanding in the first place to see Hamilton, and then the King.
I don't think he had just popped in for a cup of sugar!
I should also add that others at Dungavel included some senior Polish Officers. The most senior Polish Officer of all of course, General Sikorsky, died 4 July 1943 in another RAF accident at Gibraltar where his Liberator transport plunged into the sea on take of. The controls jammed...

[Clockwork Mouse]

Careful there Chug! You don't want to get the reputation of a conspiracy theorist. It undermines the credibility which seems so essential to those posting on these hallowed threads!

[Chugalug2]

Oh I'm pretty certain there was a conspiracy, CM. Pro German, anti-communist, and peace at all costs types permeated the British Establishment then, from the ex-King downwards. Churchill had to deliver a "back me or sack me" ultimatum to his own Cabinet in order to deal with it .
If by these "hallowed threads" you are hinting at those that have uncovered another conspiracy, to conceal the deliberate dismantling of the system of UK Military Airworthiness provision, then it's Deja Vu all over again! Those threads began with much talk of the honour of Very Senior RAF Officers. We later discovered what the honour of those Very Senior RAF Officers meant....

[Milo Minderbinder]

Interesting to discover that Sempel was a member of the "Right Club".
I would have thought that in itself would have got him kicked out of the military during the war

[pasir]

Considering the Beeb could have considered the tragedy and loss of Singapore and Malaya a forbidden subject for years - Seems they have relented and will allow a further generous helping to be aired in two parts - The first part tomorrow eve Sunday 7pm BBC2 -

'Singapore 1942: End of Empire'.

...

[walter kennedy]

<< ...types permeated the British Establishment then, from the ex-King downwards....>>
And who was Churchill batting for?
Churchill (and his wealthy/powerful backers) were openly conspiring for war with Germany from as early as 1933.
Churchill wanted to get the USA involved.
Churchill didn't want Sikorsky stirring up anti Bolshevik sentiment.
Churchill wasn't interested in any of the several peace proposals from the Germans, even when the deputy leader risked all to deliver one.
Use these pointers to get a paradigm that makes sense of many of the so called disasters.
Oh, and that prime mover for the abdication of the rightful and decent King (who was against war), Stanley Baldwin, was in the same pocket as Churchill.

[parabellum]

That is very naive of you Walter. Hitler was going to have a war whether we liked it or not and we were obliged by treaties to step in as soon as Poland was invaded, had he gone to France first, or Belgium, The Nederlands etc. the same thing, any peace offerings from Germany were worthless the moment they commenced hostilities in 1939. Please don't tell us the Holocaust never happened.

[Whenurhappy]

I recently read several books on the rise of fascism in Germany - as viewed from tje eyes of village and country folk. Initially it was the Party bully-boys causing trouble and then the opportunists who knew they were on to a good thing. The rest we know.

But what was interesting to me, at least, was the near-universal belief that 'England' started the war, because of its meddling in Continental affairs. This attitude is pervasive - why is 'England' lecturing Europe about stability of the 'Euro', etc. This is an extension of the Hitlerian narrative that he didn't want to wage war against the British Empire, provided Britain did what it did best - trade and shopping, and left Europe alone. But hitler had no grand plan, either. He didn't expext the French and 2BEF to fold so quickly and then was faced with a dilemma - have a crack at 'England' or hope that peace would ensue. Of course he chose the former and grossly misemployed his tactical air force. Oh, walter kennedy, all of this was before Churchill was PM.


If I recall correctly, Germany faked a border incident with Poland and then invaded it...and Hess's flight and 'peace plan' was the deluded idea of Hitler's deputy who had gone completely bonkers - and that's saying a lot when one examines the company he kept. Even the deeply skeptical interrogators at Nurnburg realised he was completely potty! (See Richard Overy's 'Interrogation' for more details...).

Bit of course, as we know, no Freemasons died in WWII and all the Jews were warned to leave the Twin Towers. Walter, just start taking the medicine again and have a lie down, will you, there's a good chap.

[Chugalug2]

Walter, as usual you miss the whole point! On the 10th May 1941 this country was at war with Germany, and had been so for some 20 months. Those gathering at Dungavel to receive and treat with The Reich Deputy Fuhrer were therefore committing treason. The time for being for or against war was past. We were at war, and those involved were set to betray their country in war. This thread is about betrayal and, just as with Sempill, they got off scot-free.

[Heathrow Harry]

Walter - I don't remember that the UK took over Czechoslovakia or invaded Poland - but maybe it was all organised by Churchill?

[tornadoken]

Conspiracies are inherently ahistorical, since they address (what was then: ) tomorrow from the hindsight position of the-day-after-tomorrow.

Churchill had no part in anything pre-June,1940. Washed-up has-been. He made only one historic contribution: in his Great War, dealing with his time as Sec. for War, 1919-20, he was prominent in UK's invasion of Russia, intending to defeat the "foul baboonery" of Bolshevism. That phrase informed all Western Statesmen until July,1941 (Barbarossa). His Memoirs then have his speech in the sense "my enemy's enemy is my friend" - at least a favourable comment about the Devil...

Japan was until mid-1920s our valiant Ally (just as Italy). In 1931 she invaded China. Left us alone in HK so we, in the League, mumbled vaguely and got on with trying to cope with the Depression. Italy soon did ditto, Abyssinia, and we did ditto. What mattered to us all was halting Bolshevism. Hungary had, briefly, been run as if a Soviet; France was infested with Bolshies. PM Baldwin: 29/7/36: “If there is any fighting in Europe to be done I should like to see the Bolshies and the Nazis doing it” H.M-Hyde,Br.Air Policy Between the Wars,Hein,76,P389. Appeasement was simply an attempt by UK/France to point Germany East, to everyone's benefit.

Japan's Army was disparaged only by racist Blimps. Its Navy was disparaged by nobody after 1905. Both were funded for the Mission of securing Manchukuo from Russia (see map). Just because only skirmishing occurred above Harbin before August,1945 does not mean that full, formed-Force warfare in Siberia could not have happened. Until July,1941 UK would have welcomed Japan thrusting North while Germany thrust East. Foul baboonery.

So: treason. Semphill committed no crime. Until 8 December,1941 UK had "correct" relations with Japan. Pratt and Bristol had done radial business with them, Douglas had licenced DC-3...&tc. Naturally Japan reversed these products; naturally the Western owners of the Industrial Property were peeved, naturally did nowt about it, 'cos more business beckoned (sound familiar..?) If Bristol had believed Semphill had conspired to facilitate infringement by Japan of their patents, remedy was available in UK civil court. (though France might have a view: Bristol recips derived from French). He was a commissioned Rep. for a potential customer of UK Aero industry. No crime.

Hess. We do not know who knew what about his agenda before he arrived. It may be that Hamilton knew he intended to renew Hitler's very open May,1940 "offer" (see very recent drama, 10 Days in May) of the sea for UK, Eurasia for Germany (and Japan, no doubt, East of the Urals...but North of the Himalayas). In May, 1941 it would have been irresponsible for UK Statesmen NOT to listen to feelers. The Western War was in stalemate. Foul baboonery still loomed. If there was any chance of encouraging the only Threat to India to thrust North, the jackboot on W.Europe to thrust East, exhausting both+the baboon...well, go for it!

(Because exactly that was the 1945 outcome, any conspiracy theory should address FDR's oil sanction on Japan, after its Mutual Support Pact with Germany: what else could the Statesmen of a cold land do, denied oil by trade, but to take East Indies' oil by Force...thus triggering support from their Ally?)

[Chugalug2]

tornadoken, but he was still communicating with his Japanese contacts a week after Churchill had sent them this letter (declaring war!):-
Sir,
On the evening of December 7th His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom learned that Japanese forces without previous warning either in the form of a declaration of war or of an ultimatum with a conditional declaration of war had attempted a landing on the coast of Malaya and bombed Singapore and Hong Kong.

In view of these wanton acts of unprovoked aggression committed in flagrant violation of International Law and particularly of Article I of the Third Hague Convention relative to the opening of hostilities, to which both Japan and the United Kingdom are parties, His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo has been instructed to inform the Imperial Japanese Government in the name of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom that a state of war exists between our two countries.

I have the honour to be, with high consideration,

Sir,
Your obedient servant,
Winston S. Churchill[1]
Of the letter, Churchill later wrote: "Some people did not like this ceremonial style. But after all when you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."
As to Hamilton and his other guests at Dungavel on the evening of 10th May 1941, what they knew or didn't know of Hess's agenda is immaterial. They plainly expected him to land there and would expect to find out then. You seem to have a very broad definition of the term "Statesmen". I don't. These were serving RAF Senior Officers, in part. They were not statesmen. Tellingly one of them was also a senior member of the Royal Family. I suggest that was the reason no action was taken against them, just as the Duke of Windsor as a serving officer had none taken against him when discovered to have passed military secrets to a renowned Swedish agent of the Germans.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Sempill appears to have deliberately conspired to provide marine aviation technology and skills to the Japanese, which the Admirality had specifically declined to provide on the grounds of security
That rather strikes me as espionage, though that could be a matter of sematics.
One mans spying is another mans free trade in information...

[mary meagher]

Well well well, Lord William (the 19th Lord Sempill) has been well and truly outed on the Military Aircrew thread a year ago, and discussed in detail by pilots and observers who are far more knowlegable than I....though I still look forward to rooting around to see what his contribution was to British Gliding, as he was the President of the BGA at some point! (as I am a British Glider pilot with a funny Yank accent).

Speaking as a Yank, I am also really pissed off at those who passed British expertise and knowledge on to the Japs which enabled them to sink our fleet at Pearl Harbor....Though in the end this did benefit Britain, as it had the effect as Yamamoto remarked, of waking the sleeping giant....

I will at the earliest opportunity watch the BBC programme; and also undertake to withdraw my threads about doing such a programme, arriving a year too late with that suggestion. But it WAS a good idea....

[teeteringhead]

which enabled them to sink our fleet at Pearl Harbor ... not all the Fleet of course, but the RN finished the job in '82.

USS Phoenix - a appropriately named survivor of Pearl - eventually became the ARA General Belgrano ........

[Whenurhappy]

Technology is one thing, tactics are another. Inadvertently, the RN did demonstrate the power of naval air power - in Taranto. It transpired that the Japanese Naval Attaché was visiting Taranto when the FAA popped in the pay a visit. Of course, the conspiracy theorists could have a field day over that one...

[Milo Minderbinder]

The BBC program which started this thread is now available on youtube

The Fall Of Singapore: The Great Betrayal (with English subtitles) - YouTube