No more GR4 WSOs?

[Finningley Boy]

I've just read on UKAR that the last batch of WSOs have been trained by 100 Sqn. As the GR4 out of service date is not until 2020, could be argued that this last batch will stretch to then, without any need to train anymore?:confused:

FB:)

[Moi/]

If they dont stop recruiting, what are they going to do with all the WSO's when the JSF/F35 comes into service on target/time.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Moi, they stopped recruiting some time ago, hence why this is the last batch.

I presume planning has been done, looking at the number of qualified GR4 backseaters still around in other jobs who could come back to the force. Let's hope they don't all PVR or something...!

The more-cynical answer is that they're assuming the OSD will come left considerably after 2015 when we leave Afghanistan.

[Pontius Navigator]

And as I said before, if a stick monkey they can probably get another SM in the back.

[Bismark]

Not the end of Nav training though. 750 NAS at Culdrose forges ahead with the KingAir Avenger as the MFTS Rear Crew Sqn.

[Wiretensioner]

Wouldn't believe everything you see on UKAR. Remember it's a spotters site full of experts!!


Wiretensioner

[airpolice]

Wot's gonna happen at Leeming then?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

they can probably get another SM in the back


Wouldn't be the first time...several new F3 pilots found themselves in the back seat for a short period circa 2000-1.

[muppetofthenorth]

Check IOT grad notices, WSOs haven't been going through for a year or two now.

[Lima Juliet]

Quote:
they can probably get another SM in the back
Wouldn't be the first time...several new F3 pilots found themselves in the back seat for a short period circa 2000-1.

Seemed like a good idea but RADAR manipulation/handling/interpretation is a skill in itself - just like the Navs that crossed over to Pilot found out that "poling" also needed a full course to get the hang of! Equally, RHWR and ECM handling is also an art. "Horses for courses" comes to mind - you don't use a cart horse to run the Grand National, and you don't use a Hunter to pull a brewery cart - I'll leave you to decide which is what! :E

We tried using Fighter Controllers in the boot of an F3 and quite frankly they could do some of the tasks very well but lacked airmindedness and airmanship. We tried using AEOs and AEOps in the boot of Tornados various, but they were trained for larger ISTAR types and lacked the low/medium/high level Nav skills. In my opinion, Navs aren't precious or skilled more than other branch (they might be cleverer!!), but you can train anyone to do anything; but can't assume that training for another role (ie. Pilot) will make them good for something else (ie. WSO Nav).

Just my opinion after seeing this tried a few times over my 22 years...

LJ

[Finnpog]

Bloody hell LJ.
You could be nailed to a tree for that kind of heresy around here!
Pilots not omnicompetent Gods who have descended from the skies?!!

Burn him! He's a witch. :E

[sargs]

Leon Jabachjabicz:
We tried using AEOs and AEOps in the boot of Tornados various

Oh really? When, and to what end? I can't imagine why the Nav Mafia would even contemplate such a thing. I know many AEOps who have gone on to be successful Tornado pilots and navs, on commissioning and after training of course. Don't get too precious about RADAR manipulation and EW, they have been core skills of NCA for many years, long before the first Tornado nav learnt to switch on his computerized RHWR. As for low level nav skills, you'd better ask all the rotary wing NCA how they get on with that.

Navigators - protecting seats whilst eyeing ups everybody else's since 1942.

[Lima Juliet]

Questions, questions...

They tried AEOs and AEOps for Tornado in the 80s and they didn't crack it - hence the big uptake of Navs for Tornado in the late 80s and early 90s to replace the aging F4/Bucc/V-force Navs.

Stealing since 1942 eh? Try 1915 when the Observer was first used in WW1 - this turned into Nav and Bomb Aimer in 1942. Air Gunners started 1939, which broke off into Air Signaller in 1943 and Radar Observer in 1941 - blobbing them up into AEO and AEOp that did not come along until 1963! The biggest travesty was when the WSO and WSOp was formed in 2003 by blobbing all the aircrew brevets into 1 - apart from the FCs, ATs, IAs and PJis!!! The original plan was for a 2-wing badge for FJ Navs that would be renamed Weapons Systems Officers or WSOs like the rest of the Western World. Somehow, some bunch of senior officers f@cked it all up and came up with the abomination of the WSO/WSOp and the d0gsh!t badge that goes with it - they would have been better bringing back the Flying-O Observer badge as it at least it had some history behind it (in fact it would be more senior than the RAF pilots' wings as they came along in 1918 and the seniors would never have supported that!).

As for RW WSOp LL nav - funny I thought the co-pilot did that and the WSOp dished out the Mars bars and manned up the General or the Mini-Gun on ops? :ok:

Don't forget that Navs have been using RWR/RADAR in Meteors/Javelins/Buccs/F4s for as long as AEO/AEOps have been around since 1963.

Finally, if you re-read my post you will see that I said you can train anyone to do anything (mostly) - hence that is why the AEOps that you mention became Tornado Pilots and Navs. :confused:

LJ

[airpolice]

Sargs wrote:

As for low level nav skills, you'd better ask all the rotary wing NCA how they get on with that.

I think the answer to that would be; "At much, much slower speeds!"


Leon wrote: Finally, if you re-read my post you will see that I said you can train anyone to do anything (mostly)

I am the living proof of that. An ex SAC from Air Traffic who can now drive aeroplanes, albeit slower than Leon.

[minigundiplomat]

Leon,

very little nav on ops. Big line of mountains East to West, river North to South at one end, city of Kandahar dwarfed by massive airbase at the other.

Most of the time it's IP to grid work once in the green zone and by that point the NCA are firmly nailed to the trigger [for good reason].

However, I know ex-SH crewmen who now reside in both seats of GR4's - so it isn't some mystical art.

Manning up the General and dishing out the mars bars? - I think you need to get out more.

Airpolice - Yes, at much lower speeds.

[Lima Juliet]

MGD

Manning up the General and dishing out the mars bars? - I think you need to get out more.

Made me chuckle as I typed it (simple things amuse...and all that!)

:ok:

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

LJ, remind me where the RADAR manipulation/handling/interpretation is a skills and RHWR and ECM handling is conducted in the Typhoon?

In fact an SM back seat tour on the Tonka might be beneficial to future tiffy drivers.

As for FC backenders in the F3, I knew a couple, in fact one upgraded my PC for me. Your Fighter Controllers in the boot of an E3 also did some of the tasks very well but lacked airmindedness and airmanship. is equally true but they seem to have coped in the last 20 years.

[airpolice]

Made me chuckle as I typed it (simple things amuse...and all that!)

And that, Ladies & Gentlemen, is what t'interweb is for.

This isn't work, it's entertainment.

[NDW]

As a 'past' wannabe WSO, I would like to wish all three WSO graduates the very best of luck with their future careers.

NDW

[TEEEJ]

End Of An Era (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/end-of-an-era-16052012)

[iRaven]

An advert from 1971...

http://www.aviationancestry.com/Recruitment/RafRecruit/RafRecruit-Navigator-1971-8.jpg

The trg may have stopped for now, but what about:

1. RIVET JOINT & AWACS?
2. MQ9 REAPER (or its replacement)?
3. FSTA's MSOs?
4. If we ever get another MPA - seedcorn is just that!?
5. When we realise that Typhoon's replacement might want more than a single seat for night low-level attack or for the SEAD/DEAD role?
6. Sentinel if it survives the chop?

It all seems a bit premature for now and with a 2-3 year lead time, I hope we're bright enough to look forward.

iRaven

[Ivan Rogov]

Looks like the fishing is good Leon!

I'm a bit surprised as I didn't see any bait in your posts, all straight down the line however Saturday evening/Sunday morning is the perfect time to try ;)

Had never heard of AEOps trying the back seat of Tornado, was it a fair trial or rigged to prove what was wanted already?

I'll have the beef please! :p

[Adam Nams]

An ex SAC from Air Traffic

Did you have to hand back your table tennis bats?

[Pontius Navigator]

1. RIVET JOINT & AWACS? Glass cockpit, 2 pilots.
2. MQ9 REAPER (or its replacement)? WSO? or pilot
3. FSTA's MSOs? Exactly, an MSO not a WSO
4. If we ever get another MPA - seedcorn is just that!?Maybe
5. When we realise that Typhoon's replacement might want more than a single seat for night low-level attack or for the SEAD/DEAD role?Why are we locked on this low level business? SAM go low, AAA goes low, SAF goes low, why not be smart?
6. Sentinel if it survives the chop?See E3

Apart from an MPA, do you really need a WSO with navigation skills or could you use a pilot or similar who is also taught navigation skills?

[RAFEngO74to09]

In the USAF, each Predator / Reaper RPA crew comprises one Pilot and one Sensor Operator. The USAF has set a capability target of 65 x 24/7 RPA orbits by 2013 - 10 crews are required to sustain each orbit. This has created a requirement for 650 Sensor Operators. The USAF has now created a new enlisted career field to satisfy this requirement.

RPA Ramp Up (http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2011/June%202011/0611RPA.aspx)

As an aside, the linked article is almost 2 years old and there are already more RPA pilots than F-16 pilots in the USAF.

[salad-dodger]

1. RIVET JOINT Glass cockpit, 2 pilots.

Correct on the 2 pilots, but wrong to imply no navigator. (As usual.) :ugh:

S-D

[Pontius Navigator]

S-D, we were talking of future requirements like when you grow up sonny.

[BEagle]

3. FSTA's MSOs? Exactly, an MSO not a WSO

The Luftwaffe tried that - it didn't work, even though the A310MRTT has a Mission System which actually works, unlike the Voyager's system which doesn't. So they use ex-FJ back seaters from Tornado and F-4.

The FSTA IPT were told this - and the reasons why....

But no, they had to know better and decided not to learn from the mistakes of others...:rolleyes:

[salad-dodger]

PN

Shall I spell it out for you? Rivet Joint has a navigator. It has a navigator now, and it has a requirement for a navigator in the future. So, how does that not fit with talking about future requirements?

I'm sure a third pilot could be used instead of a nav/WSO. After all, if the role was difficult, it would be carried out by an engineer.

Stick to what you do best old fella. I'm sure there are some who are interested in your reminiscences.

S-D

[BEagle]

I should add that the primary issue with using a non-FJ back seater (or navigator from another role) was the training cost. Significant enough for initial qualification, but to maintain sufficient proficiency in the AAR role, hugely expensive without a high quality procedure trainer. Even then, you need more instructors than otherwise, taking them away from their primary role, so more MSOs are needed...and more instructors...

Rumours reaching me are that the RAF is even intending to use these role-inexperienced non-navigator/ non-air engineers to control FJ formations as well as conducting AAR....:uhoh: Even the Luftwaffe's ex-FJ back seaters find that pretty difficult and have had the odd 'moment', nicht wahr?

If you want to see how a 21st Century 3-person flight deck tanker should be operated, just watch the RCAF operating their combat-proven CC 150T. Eh?

[Knight Paladin]

Sorry, somewhat slow reply... MiniGunDiplomat's description of "Nav on Ops" is a classic indicator to me of the Helmand-myopia gripping the Army and the SH force. The GR4s in Afghanistan operate all over the country, supporting ISAF forces across the different RCs and provinces, and it is a source of great frustration to me that so many people, even RAF people, only think of Helmand when they think of Afghanistan. There still isn't much nav on ops though - the GPS/IN solution pretty much takes care of that side of business!

[Big Bear]

5. When we realise that Typhoon's replacement might want more than a single seat for night low-level attack or for the SEAD/DEAD role?Why are we locked on this low level business? SAM go low, AAA goes low, SAF goes low, why not be smart?



SAM go high (and a long way for newer ones), AAA goes high, but ground based radar still can't see over the horizon (low freq ones excepted). Low and fast is smart because it gives ground-based defences a much shorter time to react.

Bear

[minigundiplomat]

Knight,

take your point and agree with most of your post. However, it is a trade off and not letting the Taleban paint a CH outline on their RPG launcher is often a more pressing reality than knowing the name of the crappy hamlet in the 3 o clock.

That said, there was a concerted effort to keep nav skills sharp when the guys/gals were back from ops.

Take care,

MGD

[NDW]

MSO? Apologies for my ignorance, what does it stand for?
When it comes to the Rivet Joint, what would be the most likely Crew lineup? Similar to the E3 minus the WSO's?

[lj101]

MSO- Mission System Operator.

When it works of course.

[Knight Paladin]

MGD: No worries - I completely get why you have other priorities. Just the same as in the FJ world; knowing precisely where you are generally isn't as important as the big picture tactical situation - unless you're delivering weapons in our case, or I guess arriving at an HLS or the like in yours. The fact that so many people, especially brown jobs, seems to forget there are other parts of Afghanistan than Helmand is a bit of a raw nerve for me, and you inadvertently touched on it, so sorry if my reply seemed a bit harsh! Peace and love.

[airpolice]

MGD, Naving is about situational awareness as much as it is about anything.

Knowing the name of the hamlet is important whether it is in Helmand or Hertfordshire. If you suddenly start going down, whether due to incoming fire or engine failure, knowing exactly where to ask help to attend is important.

Some can do that better than others. Generally people who have been trained to navigate find it easier and are better at it.

[Martin the Martian]

Wouldn't believe everything you see on UKAR. Remember it's a spotters site full of experts!!


Wiretensioner


End Of An Era (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/end-of-an-era-16052012)


Aww, heck. Looks like some of them spotters DO know what they're talking about.:8

[KG86]

Sorry, airpolice, can't agree with you there.

If you go down, the name of the nearby village is irrelevant. Support and rescue need Lat/Long or grid, that's all. And there a multitude of technical solutions to getting that position, in extremis a smartphone will do.

[airpolice]

Yeah, that's all very well if you have time to get your iPhone out and get a ref.... but if it's a short mayday then you don't get a chance to do anything else..............


I like to be able to state where I am at any given time, just in case a longer, more detailed conversation is not an option.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Without wanting to get into it in detail, there are numerous ways of noting the position of a downed aircraft and passing that information on to the appropriate people. One at the very bottom of the list is a mayday call to the airspace controllers. Very very relevant in the event of a peacetime crash back home mind you, but in theatre I think there are things I'd rely on before a mayday call, especially if the airspace frequency isn't always secure.

I don't know who's carrying a smartphone when on an operational sortie, but they do kindly provide more than just a silk escape map and compass!

[BEagle]

MSO- Mission System Operator.

When it works of course.

If it ever will........

'O'Level Spanish

Translate the following into Spanish:

1. Made in Spain.
2. The fault will be corrected soon.


Answers:

1. La máquina no funciona.
2. (No translation possible - it's like asking what the Klingon word is for 'sorry'. 'mañana' implies an excessive state of urgency in this context.)