Microlight Crash in Scotland - 2 Fatalities

[10W]

Notified at work about this yesterday but unable to post till made public.

Sadly 2 have been killed when a Microlight which departed from Perth bound for Glenforsa crashed about 100' from the summit of Ben More near Crianlarich. The wreckage and crew were discovered by hillworkers but the crash was unfortunately fatal. It is understood that the aircraft left Perth with 3 others but no further information is publicly available yet.

BBC News - Stirlingshire mountain microlight crash kills two men (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-18049002)

[fisbangwollop]

Very sad news..:(. I helped run a safety day last year for the BMAA at Scottish Air Traffic Control centre......it always amazed me why most of the microlight brigade never bother speaking to ATC, they just seem to do their own thing on the microlight frequency.......during my talk I tried to convince these guys that ATC were here as friends and here to help.......after the event I recieved numerous emails from some of the pilots saying the first thhing they would do next time they flew was speak to ATC........Now I am not trying to say in this instance talking to ATC would have altered the outcome of this one incident but lets just say if things started to go wrong at an early stage a quick call to ATC may have in some shape or form offered some help. (it certainally would have saved us bit of time and effort yesterday in trying to track down where this aircraft had come from)... So PLEASE next time you fly over inhospitable terrain consider giving Scottish Information a call.....we really are human and indeed are here to assist in what ever way possible. Once again from myself and the rest of Scottish ATC condolences to families and friends to those that have lost a loved one or special friend...:(

['India-Mike]

I had a busy day instructing out of Glasgow yesterday - Ben More was resplendent all day in the excellent visibility and fairly high cloudbase. There were showers but not over the hills to the north, more running west/east along the Clyde. Turbulence only really less than moderate over the low ground to the lee of hills to the west, and then only below 800'. Fabulous day weather-wise yesterday. What a real shame - exchanged pleasantries at Perth a couple of weeks ago with a couple of the microlighters from there.

[dont overfil]

FBW,

Spoke to you briefly yesterday on the phone. Very sad indeed.

The subject of using a chat frequency rather than a proper information frequency was brought up at a recent safety evening. At least one of the deceased was present. As you say it may not have made any difference in this case but it was a total fluke that they were found so soon.

Had it not been for the hill walkers the search may have still been on.

India Mike,

Mixed reports about the level of turbulence. I believe it was OK at 7000ft the rest of the group used but there were reports of pretty rough rides by other flyers.

D.O.

[Gwynge]

I'm a long-term microlighter and I use the radio as little as possible. It may be because microlighters are often brought up in farmer's fields and therefore have no in-built familiarity with the radio from day one or it may just be that microlight flying is different. Much as hang-gliding or paragliding is different. For my regular flying, from a farm strip, talking to an ATC is just extra work I don't want. There is no benefit. If flying over water I use the radio for safety purposes and were I flying over mountainous regions I might do for similar safety reasons. Often I fly with others and might use the illegal "chat" frequency for safety purposes as inter-group communication.

I wouldn't object to using a transponder (so that I can be seen) which I think would provide a deal of benefit with almost zero workload however I would only voluntarily do it on 2 conditions:
1. The technology is brought up to date. £1500 50's technology is a nonsense and I will not subscribe to it. These things should be a fraction of that price and should use a low powerer sensible modern technology.
2. The transponder data is not used for enforcement or prosecution.

[gasax]

I was flying yesterday about 40 miles north of their track. The turbulence below 4000 was pretty bad. At 6000 ft the wind was 35 kts over the high ground whic would have made a pretty strong headwind for a weight shift. There was also quite a lot of thermal activity and large areas of intermittent wave.

To the west of Braemar I got down to 2000ft and a little less, but could only do it by slowing down and being very careful of areas of rotor.

They were quite a way south of there but around Ben More I would expect the conditions would be pretty similar. None of our local weight shifts were flying but that was down to the gusty and fairly strong wind.

All the radio would have done is add questions, perhaps start a search or be a distraction (sorry fishbang but you do come a long way third in my order of priorities).

From my viewpoint it was a pretty rough day over the hills and needed care. But it was bright and sunny and with care why not?

[fisbangwollop]

DO......I agree, a total fluke they were found when they were, to be honest probablly not very long after the accident.......lets just imagine if the accident had been survivable and no one reported them missing for some time after.....how long on a snow covered mountain would they have survived without help???

Sorry to bark on about this but please guys in future consider talking to ATC....maybe one day you will be glad you did.

[mad_jock]

fis you wil never get the microlight boys to speak to you on the radio without a complete change in culture starting with the instructors and working its way down.

I know an ATCO down south who is also an RT examinor who even went round all his local clubs doing free RT courses and tests. I will admit he was motivated because it helped him having a known traffic enviroment in class G while trying to get his CAT aircraft in under vectors.

Even with free courses and test they still wouldn't speak to him. The fixed wing instructors in scotland teach the students to speak to you. I suspect the microlight instructors don't.

If you crack the instructors the students will follow.

['India-Mike]

How good are microlight radios? My observation (and it is just that, an observation) is that they use hand-held ICOMs or similar, fixed on the frame somewhere. What's the range like? I've tried to use an ICOM in the past as a standby radio and the range was I reckon about 10 miles from 2000 feet, if that.

It really was a beautiful day for flying though, and that was the only context of the weather obs in my earlier post - not trying to make any analysis at all.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I am using exactly that setup: a handheld Icom A6 sliding onto a bracket on the dashboard. I have no trouble communicating with Brussels information even at 50 NM from Brussels, from 1500' AGL or even lower. But must admit I do not know where they have antennae and/or repeaters.

The critical thing however is the antenna, and AFAIK microlight radio setups do not need to be checked or authorised. Mine certainly never was, and I believe it can never be officially certified.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Don't know to what degree it is official, but microlighters often use 123,425 MHz as a default frequency. One place where I know this is done is is EBLN Liernu ulmodrome, which does not have a published frequency. I believe this kind of behaviour can be observed at certain ulmodromes in Germany and France, too.

[andy munro]

It is worth remembering the environment that 'most' microlight/flexwing training takes place, i.e. farm strips where there is no need, or legal requirement, to use the radio. I totally believe that it is good practice to use the radio whenever appropriate and definately not as a "chat frequency". In my opinion, this is one area that needs addressing and I think that competent use of the radio should be a mandatory part of all flying training. I remember many years ago being sent solo on my first cross country by my instructor with no radio as he didn't believe they weren't necessary, how short sighted! Only my opinion of course.

[dont overfil]

Microlight 129.825

D.O.

[xrayalpha]

Mad Jock and India Mike,

Come and visit us at Strathaven sometime.

We will let you look at what a range of modern microlights look like, and take you up for a flight - free of charge.

All in the interests of you seeing just what you are sharing the sky with.

Yes, many microlights - particularly weightshifts - have hand-held Icoms. Nothing wrong with that, they actually work pretty well. Although quite a few now have "proper" fitted dash-mounted radios.

Quite a few also have Mode S transponders too!

Speed-wise, UK weightshift microlights rule the world. The current world record holder is a GT450 - at 99mph (statute) - and the Quik is meant to be faster and the QuikR even quicker.

So even a 35kt headwind is not the hurdle it was when my wee Flash 2 alpha crossed the USA at an average airspeed of 50mph.

Why the hand-held radios? To get inside the weight limits for certification - based on an empty airframe plus occupants and fuel - a removeable hand-held is ideal. Then its weight doesn't count! It is more things like aerial location and wiring that cause problems, rather than type of radio.

Why most hand-helds illegal? Because the CAA didn't replace the approvals chap when he headed to Europe and Europe "forgot" to add hand-helds to their list of items they could approve. Aaaargh!

Why do some microlight instructors not use radios - well, some do not have radio licences. An FRTOL is not necessary for a NPPL microlight.

Also, in a weightshift, it is impossible to reach the dash from the back seat, and it is really hard to work a radio to change frequencies with thick winter gloves on.

Again, come for a flight with us and see what is what.

Chat frequencies? Can mean many things. 123.45 is meant to be very popular with some people - must be, because the CAA warn everyone not to use it as such!

"Chat" might also be used to mean a common frequency - such as the microlight one - which all agree to stay on, while one nominated person gets their fingers frozen changing frequencies to communicate with various agencies on their behalf and then report back to the group.

Let's get rid of "them and us" and get a bit of understanding here.

And if people still want to learn, a good point made at the safety day at Prestwick was upload a photo of your aircraft to G-INFO so controllers can get on the web and find out what a ABC123 registered GABCD looks like and what colour/s it is.

Could be helpful if searching the Scottish wildnerness. (rather than the invasion of privacy some see it as)

[xrayalpha]

Dear Andy,

Welcome to Pprune.

Microlight schools can be found at North Weald - flying with Jet Provosts etc; or at Sywell, one of the biggest and busiest GA airfield in the UK,; or, closer to home, at Perth, where there is commercial flight training going on as well as it being Scotland's biggest GA field.

In fact, microlights can be found at almost every type of airfield in the UK that you will find GA, with the exception of major commercial airports such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Manchester etc. And usually for the same reason you don't get GA at Heathrow -because of capacity issues and cost.

You can also find GA types flying from fields - such as the farmer on Collonsay who can't park his Cessna 172 on the island's airfield! - or many LAA homebuilt types.

Most of us want our flying - whatever type (jets, twins, SEPs or microlights) - to be affordable. So if you only are allowed to fly day VFR, why pay the cash to operate from an expensive radar-served airport?

Nothing worng with operating out of a farmer's field - and of course just because you have taken off from one doesn't mean that is the only type you can fly to!

[swopiv]

This is a very sad incident indeed. My thoughts go out to the families and friends of those involved. I don't know why this thread has turned towards a discussion on radio frequency use, but there is no 'chat' frequency. The microlight frequency is used in a similar way to safetycom.
However, this is all irrelevant, as the aircraft in question was apparently on the appropriate frequency at the time. It is further irrelevant because I highly doubt that the frequency selected had any bearing whatsoever on this incident. That being said, I am a microlight pilot and I talk to Scottish Info (or the appropriate ATC) whenever I am on a cross country. Many of my fellow pilots do the same. Flying in the local area is a bit different, and for trips round the borders, most will just stay on microlight frequency.
As for radio range, it is the antenna installation that matters. When I first bought my aircraft, I temporarily used the handheld icom with the small rubber antenna, and got a range of perhaps 8-12 miles at 2000'. I now have a kingpost mounted antenna (same radio), and can easily get 50+ miles. I often listen out on Scottish or Edinburgh Approach, and the worst quality radio transmissions all seem to come from spamcans and the like.

[Crash one]

I think there is far too much confusion over frequencies. All of which is perfectly legal.
Frinstance, I can depart Kingsmuir in deepest East Fife on Safetycom, then switch to Leuchars Mil or Scottish or Fife depending on whether I think the Air force may be a problem/weekdays/weekend. Fife training/para dropping. Anyone else can do the same.
So we have several a/c in the same area talking to several different people. How can this be called "communication"? Perhaps with my inexperienced 200 or so hrs I should know better? What is the view? Fisbang, thank you for your excellent service, but who was the PA28 talking to that closely crossed my path a few months ago? Leuchars (10nm away) said nothing, OCAS I agree, Injun territory, watch yr back & keep yr powder dry & all that was the advice I've had. But, who should I be talking to & shouldn't everyone else be as well?
I know it would involve even more regulation but could there not be some sort of sector freq that everyone "should" be on? Or am I confusing the issue?

['India-Mike]

Don't get me wrong - I have no 'them' and 'us' when it comes to microlights. See and avoid has worked well for me to the north of the Glasgow zone in particular. I'm not bothered by those not on R/T OCAS. They're quite entitled to skirt CAS without talking to the controlling authority. I'm on 'your' side there.

In the 4 years or so I've been instructing here (Glasgow and Prestwick) the microlighters have indeed operated as above - and as I say I personally don't have a problem with that. But recently I've heard more of them using R/T, particularly around the GLA class D. So they're 'integrating' more with the 'rest' of us. Standard of R/T is generally poor, but so what? It'll come with practice - and of course it's not just the microlighters with poor R/T.

I eavesdropped on microlight groundschool at Perth a few weeks ago during a tea break with my examiner, and was very impressed on the knowledge and understanding of weather that the instructor was passing on to his students and remember thinking 'no wonder these guys can operate up here safely'.

Perhaps the issue is we're not filing VFR flight plans in Scotland for what, after all, are flights over largely remote and inaccessible areas, especially if we get injured. I'm guilty of that myself when flying privately. I walk the hills and have often wondered how I could get off one if even only slightly injured, in the dark, in rubbish weather. If presented with a choice, radio or file a plan, I'd go for the latter up here.

[FERRYAIR]

This accident happened Friday 11th ( according to Press release ).

Police attend microlight incident


Published on Friday 11 May 2012 20:44


Police are dealing with an incident involving a microlight plane at a mountain range.
The incident happened at Ben More, near Crianlarich, Stirlingshire, at around noon.
A Central Scotland Police spokesman said inquiries were at a very early stage.
He said: "Central Scotland Police are currently dealing with a microlight incident at Ben More in Crianlarich. The incident occurred at around midday."
Police have not yet revealed details of who was onboard or their condition.


Police attend microlight incident - Scottish Headlines - Milngavie Herald (http://www.milngavieherald.co.uk/news/scottish-headlines/police-attend-microlight-incident-1-2291370)

[fisbangwollop]

XRAYALPHA..And if people still want to learn, a good point made at the safety day at Prestwick was upload a photo of your aircraft to G-INFO so controllers can get on the web and find out what a ABC123 registered GABCD looks like and what colour/s it is.



That was myself that said that at the safety day.......on the Scottish Information Sector we have access to the GINFO Web site and yes indeed with so many new micro types appearing every year its good to be able to look at a picture of the aircraft we are speaking to.......I also think it a good idea if it's a flexwing calls me then on initial contact say you are a flexwing microlight rather than just microlight.

[dont overfil]

Sorry, I incorrectly used the term "chat frequency" when I should have said microlight frequency.

However I don't see the point of using it outside the environment of an exclusively microlight field. Is there really such a thing? What is wrong with safetycom?

Edited to add.. Ferryair, it happened on Saturday.

VFR flightplans are a waste of time for this kind of trip.

D.O.

[mad_jock]

xrayalpha I don't have a problem with microlights at all unless they cut me up on finals as they are apt to do and start bleeting but you were abusing finals if you have words with them.

My comments were more on the ethos of the instructors when they are teaching.

When we teach fixed wing nav ex's talking to scottish is part and parcel of the exercise along with a practise pan at some point.

I can fully understand down south why folk might not want to talk to London info who are saturated much of the time on nice days and to be honest you have plenty of alternatives from LARS units etc.

But come on Scottish info!!

Never heard a cross word out of them yet.

Always make things easy for students and don't put them under pressure.

No other agencys which would give you a better service (ie radar etc)

If you start your students talking to them from the start they will be comfy always using them.

Like it or not swopiv microlights not talking to scottish is a problem for the rest of us. The more people use the service the better picture all of us have of what traffic is going to effect us. And its all very well saying "but I listen in what more do you want". Most arn't like yourself speaking to info.

And its a particular problem around that perth area you can be told nothing known affect and it turns out there are 10 plus microlights bimbling around all of them.

Flying in the local area is a bit different, and for trips round the borders, most will just stay on microlight frequency.

Coming away from this accident and the fact hillwalkers found them. If scottish knows what they are doing and over due action is called either by other aircraft getting there or by friends and family calling the police at least the MRT have got a smaller search area to concentrate on. No it proberly wouldn't affect the out come of any incident. But at least your not putting the MRT at risk searching at night through vast tracks of land to try and find out if they are alive. Not to mention the cost of rescue helicopters etc.

Another fact which people might like to take into consideration is the state of your remains for your family. The longer you are out there the more scavengers will cut down the amount of bio mass for the coffin and more than likey your loved ones won't be seeing you again because your tongue,lips and eyes are the choice bits, just look at any sheep carcasses in the hills. So the less time until the MRT find you the less stress your family comes under never mind having to have a sealed lid on your coffin.

As xrayalpha rightly says microlighting is become more and more popular and the amount of it means that if it doesn't join in with the rest of us it causes a major safety risk.

I expect in the not so distant future there will be more microlight movements in the scottish FIR than spam cans. Habits need to be changed.

O and instead of reporting back to the group just everyone stay on scottish and one person book in as a formation. At least the the DF trickery can work if someone sends out a mayday if its fitted on scottish info freq (is it FBW?)

And to add i have never filed a VFR plan plan in my puff waste of time. But I do give info a shout if I am low enough and keep them updated if I change my routing.

Apart from anything else the more we use the service the more ammuntion the service has if the bean counters start talking about reducing it with an excuse due to lack of use.

[Jan Olieslagers]

@ d.o.:And what then is "safetycom" and when and why should one use it?

As I understand the UK situation, I tend to agree with Crash One: for any given place in airspace, there ought to be one and exactly one frequency that one can talk to, and that one should always be listening to. If inside controlled airspace: the controlling authority - be it tower or approach or whatever. Outside controlled airspace: the relevant "information" - except in or when approaching the traffic zone of a non-controlled aerodrome.

Why complicate matters?

[dont overfil]

Safetycom was supposed to be similar to Unicom in the USA. It's communication for airfields without a dedicated frequency.

Then some idiot decided to rule that it was only air to air and must not be used by anyone on the ground. Yes it is just the same idea as the microlight frequency.

If you want a frequency used from the ground Ofcom want a wad of cash from you and you must be licenced to use it. It's a shambles which has more than a little to do with empire building and money.

D.O.

[mad_jock]

Its meant to be for traffic around an airfield not for a group to use where ever they like on cross country's Gliders also have there own frequency for gliding sites which again is used as "there frequency"

There is also a myth out there that if you use the gliding and the microlight frequency you don't need a RT license.

The fact of the matter is with students, a big problem is they are scared to use the radio and speak on it. They think that who ever they are talking to is going to record and report them for ****e RT. When the worst thing that going to happen is that if a fellow student hears them they might take the piss. Give them to scottish to speak to honestly. They all have a knack of calming the student/insecure pilot down and getting the required info out of them without injecting a terminal fear of talking on the radio.

Maybe its because the instructors arn't that comfy speaking on the RT and don't want to sound like a chump in front of the students. So they tell the students not to talk if they can help it as well.

Well to be honest all fixed wing instructors are the same with only 200 hours under there belts. Give it a week or two talking to everyone and you will forget you were ever stressed about it.

[gasax]

I don't know what the plan was that these guys had. But there is no way they could raise Scottish unless they were at at least 5000ft in that area. Anything less and it is pretty spotty. And that is the case all the way until you get pretty near the coast on the other side. There are areas where it works at something around the height of the tops plus 1000 and there are areas it doesn't.

So fishbang and his colleagues are often trying to talk to people who cannot hear or need a relay - and within those constraints they do a very good job.

But at the endof the day this is very rugged countryside and you are responsible for what happens. I love madjock worrying about the state of my remains for the next of kin - that frankly is so far down my list of priorities I would never have thought of it!

Yesterday I went flying on a rough turbulent day. I did so in the full knowledge that I was going to remote and rugged places where if something happened I needed to pull off a very good forced landing and faced at best a very challenging walk. It sort of comes with the terriority - and frankly I love it. The scenery and freedom draws me and I enjoy it. Probably very much like the two unfortunate aviators.

Radio? it has its uses. Our Basic service generally in the UK is completely useless. Fishbang and his mates make it worthwhile in terms of search and rescue - but I usually fly far too low to make any practical use of it.

My alternative 'risk management' is a PLB - but I need to be at least conscious after my forced landing - cos there is no way I am messing about with it, if the engine fails or the turbulence rolls me over.

Whatever happened yesterday was very unfortunate, radio would in no way have prevented it. We had a incident very recently and a lot of people are saying the radio is VITAL, well for our incident it was being used - but it did not stop it occuring! It might even have contributed......

Flying in these areas can be dangerous. On an A to B flight when I'm just looking to 'get there' Scottish offer a good service. Yesterday they would not have heard me at all apart from when I chased some wave up to 6000.

Radio can be useful - but the way it is presently 'organised' in the UK seems designed to minimise that potential - and that creates a problem. Its main use would be traffic information - now of course explicitly banned under a basic service and to the south impossible to oftain when you need it.

But the bottom line is that whatever happened yesterday had nothing to do with radio. I suspect weather - but it would have been challenging to force land with the turbulence and wind gradients yesterday. We'll see eventually at least some suspicion of what happened from the AAIB.

[Jan Olieslagers]

it was only air to air

Ah!! that explains why the UK knows a thing called an "air to ground frequency" which sounded so incredible to my naive continental ears that I once made a fool of myself by staunchly denying the actual existence of such "air to ground" frequencies.

I must admit that, having visited the UK driving perhaps 50 times over the last 35 years, I regret seeing it become more and more like continental europe - where are the miles and yards, where are the shillings and sixpence, gone is four-star petrol - but aviationwise, it seems to remain a peculiar place to this day. On the longer term I like that very much - nothing worse than to see the whole world turning a uniform grey - on the short term it adds to my reluctance to come flying across.

But of course we are now very far from the fellow aviators that passed away - RIP and my sympathy with those that will miss them.

[cats_five]

<snip>
There is also a myth out there that if you use the gliding and the microlight frequency you don't need a RT license.
<snip>

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/lawsandrules.pdf

Para 2.3 reads:

A pilot of a glider may act as a flight radiotelephony operator without holding an appropriate licence, if he/she does not communicate by radiotelephony with any Air Traffic Control Unit.

Note: An ‘appropriate licence’ in this context means a Flight Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence which may be issued as a standalone licence, or in conjunction with a flight crew licence. Further information may be found in LASORS Section B1 Flight Radio Telephony Operator’s Licence on the CAA web site at

LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/LASORS)

[Rod1]

FBW – would you support making radio mandatory in Scottish airspace?

Rod1

[FERRYAIR]

Taken from BMAA Forum (http://forums.bmaa.org/default.aspx?m=114867&f=15&p=1#m114887)

Could we all remember that these are PUBLIC forums!
Please dont speculate! the AAIB investigation has just begun!
2 lives have been lost yesterday and these men were someones friends and colleagues,brothers, husbands, fathers and grandfathers.
If anyone here also posts on pprune would they please reinforce this message there as i find some of the comments inappropriate!
Thank you.
Obviously I watch all forums and have cross posted as emotions amongst the microlighters are running high on this subject.

dont overfil : I thought it was Saturday, but the Police attend microlight incident - Scottish Headlines - Milngavie Herald (http://www.milngavieherald.co.uk/news/scottish-headlines/police-attend-microlight-incident-1-2291370)
Says Friday as reporting day !!!!! ( I guess their editorial datestamp is incorrect )

[maxred]

Well said. I picked this up this evening and frankly guys could not believe some of the stuff I was reading. 2 people have lost their lives, I was at Perth on Wednesday taliking to some micro light colleagues, some of which may well have been involved in this tragic incident. Some respect please.

[awqward]

PIREP: For what it's worth I was about 10m N of Ben More at FL080 (ca. 8700ft altitude) at midday heading West to Oban over about 7/8 cloud tops around 7,500'-8,000' with about a 15kt headwind.....

['India-Mike]

What's the issue maxred - there's nothing disrespectful here. Grow up

[DX Wombat]

M-J, I haven't seen the new Scottish D&D cell but they certainly had DF in the old one so I can't imagine that it would be discarded.
Jan, the one frequency monitored 24hrs/day is 121.5. As I said above, I'm sure the new D&D Scottish will have it, Swanwick certainly does and both places always tell visitors that they would much prefer people to call them early than have to send someone to pick up the pieces. They do not care what terminology you use - they will happily speak to you in plain English rather than CAP 413 standard replies. Trust me, I know, I've been there and needed their help. :( The D&D Service is unique to the UK and is absolutely outstanding. :ok:

[maxred]

IM I am grown up, bit more than you frankly. Prattling on about the whys and wherefore of taliking to Scottish, or anyone for that matter. Revelation'plenty of people go flying talking to nobody. Not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace.

[abgd]

Personally, I don't find it disrespectful so much as off-topic - we simply don't know whether the use of radio is relevant to the accident yet.

I've nothing against going off-topic - I'm an offender on that front fairly often. But I have wondered whether the thread could profitably be divided in two.

[Jan Olieslagers]

[[[ very moderately because I don't want to offend anyone and apparently some earlier postings, mine probably, seem to have offended some]]]

the one frequency monitored 24hrs/day is 121.5

Yes, and I appreciate one should call them early rather than late. But - on a general note, and without wanting to make ANY assumption about the present sad case - there have been situations where woe came up so suddenly that no time was left for ANY radio call. Radio is only the third point - aviate - navigate - communicate, remember - so it is important that our whereabouts should be known at all times. For this purpose, OCAS an information service seems best placed.

And BTW, for us microlighters the 24/day bit is rather irrelevant, we're not supposed to fly in dark.

[maxred]

abgd - agreed

[mad_jock]

Depends what frequency it is setup on might only be 121.5 DX

The discussion on a significant part of the scottish FIR VFR traffic not participating in the info service would maybe best spun off onto another thread.

And if they used the radio or not wouldn't have been a factor if they hit a down draft. I have had 70knts wash off in that area due to a wave down draft which equates to a sink rate of 1700ft a min in the aircraft I was flying at the time.

[dont overfil]

Ferryair,
I followed your link to the microlight forum and noticed one of your colleagues may have some information.

If you pm me I can pass details of how to contact the AAIB person dealing with this.

Sorry, I've got to say this but if someone on the other forum cannot take safety advice from FSB without thinking it is disrespectful it is very sad. Of course they may not know who he is.

D.O.

[madflyer26]

It was with utter sadness I heard this morning of the deaths of two microlight pilots, one I knew very well. His passing will have a profound effect on the club he represented so well. If answers can be found it should start with the aircraft that were in accompaniment with them as they flew a very similar route and could at least confirm the weather conditions at that time. Apart from that I guess we will have to wait until the official report is compiled. Knowing the deceased pilot I am sure he would not mind speculation I also know today there is a club in Scotland grieving at the loss of a great man and such an influential character who is simply irreplaceable.

Regards

Kevin Maccuish

[DX Wombat]

M-J, from what I remember seeing at Scottish & West Drayton, as soon as someone presses the transmit switch on 121.5 the whole board lights up with red, intersecting lines - number dependent on various things, mainly reception, and the more the better as a more accurate fix can be obtained. There must be someone lurking here who is either a current or former D&D member of staff who can explain it better than I. It's quite impressive to see. Having said that, it took three calls before I was heard by them but it was an equipment failure NOT their fault.

[dont overfil]

VHF triangulation had been off line for quite some time but was reinstated a few weeks ago. There was a notam to that effect.

D.O.

[mad_jock]

Yep it does DX. But even that doesn't work some places in the highlands.

Your only hope is someone hears you and relays to DnD and the guard police don't tell you to shut up.

[thing]

Guard police? Condolencies to the family and friends. Aviation is tight knit, we all feel a loss like this even if we didn't know them.

[PH-UKU]

Very very sad news, a big loss to SAC and beyond. I enjoyed the witty and enthusiastic newsletters :(

On the subject of radios. Anywhere below 2500-3000' and you will struggle to pick up 119.875 - in addition I hear that freq may interfere with some GPSs.

In fact it can create more problems if you have crappy two way or just lose contact - from both sides of the R/T. I for one don't want to waste fuel time and money continually climbing back into R/T cover. I get enough voices in my head at work....

But, I would suggest anyone flying over remote areas buys and registers an EPIRB such as a McMurdo Fastfind.

[fisbangwollop]

Firstly sorry that my original post about radio has led this sad event down the incorrect path...that's not what I intended and I am sorry if the comments on here have upset any family and friends of the people we have lost......as a voice of "Scottish Information" I respect every person that aviates around Scotland so your loss is indeed felt as hard by myself also.:(

GASAX I don't know what the plan was that these guys had. But there is no way they could raise Scottish unless they were at at least 5000ft in that area. Anything less and it is pretty spotty. And that is the case all the way until you get pretty near the coast on the other side. There are areas where it works at something around the height of the tops plus 1000 and there are areas it doesn't.

GASAX....You often make some very negative and false claims on this forum about Scottish Info....having been doing the job for the past 16 years I know every place that I will expect to lose contact with aircraft I am talking to....coverage is pretty good above 3000ft in most place's but bear in mind VHF is indeed line of sight so yes we can not expect total coverage from my 3 aerial site's that I am able to use.

MADJOCK....many thanks for your kind comments,:cool: always appreciate comments coming from a Commercial pilot that has a huge amount of experience flying both singles and twins around the inhospitable terrain of Scotland.

As for D&D...firstly coverage on 121.5 is not too great over Scotland below 5000ft....DF bearings can be obtained by various means...sometimes this may entail phoning certain airfield or Coastguard units to gather the info.....that said by the end of 2012 the Scottish D&D cell will be moving south to Swanwick so will have all the nice gear they have down there.

Once again I am sorry if this thread has started to drift from the original post but to be honest for me it has been interesting to hear the comments aired so far.

[mad_jock]

The discussion on the using of the information service would be better spun off to another thread. I believe its an important subject which needs addressing as the level of microlight traffic is only going to increase and I am more than happy with any increase in aviation in scotland what ever it may be. We just all need to work together. I certainly don't have a them and us attitude with microlights. When ever I hear them on frequency which to be honest is rarely my main thoughts are "what a lovely day for it" or "they must be freezing their nads off"

Also the coverage of the various frequencys in Scotland is also well worth talking about as all of us seem to have to build up personal experence about where and what alt we can speak to you. How someone from the south is meant to know this knowledge I don't know. As PK says you can be in and out of coverage and sometimes not be able to tell you that your QSYing to another freq. But a routing and an estimate for destination and agreement that you will be out of contact is better than nothing. And you just ask the tower or ring scottish to let them know you have arrived. Actually a mobile number for Scottish info might be a good idea then we can just text you. I know most of the attractive young female aviators already have you personal number FBW but us fat ugly male pilots should have the same service :p :ok:

I don't think folk realise either that the top cover we used to have before Kinloss stopped flying is now gone. Most of the time even in the depths of a glen your transponder was busy flashing away as only it does when a mil asset is interogating it. Now it just sits there. Personally I would have upper Scottish west dialled in now if on the west coast low level then a transatlantic could relay a mayday if required.

And I still reckon a transmitter on top of Cairngorm would sort alot of the coverage issues out. You can get to the top esay with the railway and there is already a host of coms gear up there already. I know its a money thing.

[airpolice]

Well to be honest all fixed wing instructors are the same with only 200 hours under there belts.

If that is your idea of honesty then I'm glad I'm not flying with you.

How many fixed wing instructors have you actually met?

[mad_jock]

I used to be one and my RT was ****e. And its also a capacity thing until your patter is subconsious the demonstating, pattering, keeping you SA of local traffic, listening to the RT and replying when talked to is extremely high work load.

Which is why you hear quite often "I have called you x times" alot of controllers presume the instructor has turned the radio volume down when actually they are just maxed out. 50 to 100 hours and you have a subconsious ear out and can respond without having to think to much.

I also fly with and train FO's that are 200hours or less and know exactly what they are like on the RT. A 25 hour FIC doesn't change things.

Also alot of the instructors have done the majority of their training abroad so might only have the IR (15hours) and the FI (25 hours) courses using CAP413 in UK airspace.

If they did there PPL and hour building in the UK they are significantly better but still when you add on top teaching, monitoring etc it all falls over because basically your SA has suffered and the RT call comes as a suprise. Instead with a bit of experence you have in the back of your head they are about to pass me traffic info on that cherokee thats just booked in thats coming in from the North 15 miles out so don't have to look for him for another 5 mins but if I turn westerly I will keep out the way all while pattering straight and level part 1. So you know when you get the traffic info you know what the responce is going to be.

[Slopey]

Guard police?

The idiots who broadcast "You're on guard" (i.e. transmitting on 121.5) after any broadcast - legitimate emergency or not. Tends to be the shiny jet jockeys who maintain a listening watch on 121.5 and have nothing better to do than assume someone has set their box wrong.

Try a practice PAN one day and see how many you get!

[sitigeltfel]

The two victims have been named in the press.......

The Courier - Tributes to pair killed in Ben More microlight crash (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/News/National/article/22741/tributes-to-pair-killed-in-ben-more-microlight-crash.html)

[FERRYAIR]

Cause of microlight crash in which two men died remains a mystery - The Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/05/14/cause-of-microlight-crash-in-which-two-men-died-remains-a-mystery-86908-23858575/)

Cause of microlight crash in which two men died remains a mystery

May 14 2012 (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/05/14/) By David Taylor
FLYING club members were in shock after the “mystery” death of a popular pilot and his student who perished when their plane crashed on a Scottish mountain.
Dave Martin, 63, and Alan McCaskie, 61, were killed when their microlight aircraft came down on Ben More near Crianlarich in Stirlingshire on Saturday.
Dave, a grandfather from *Kinghorn, Fife, was described as an *“experienced” pilot who had been a member of the Perth-based Scottish Aero Club for 12 years.
Alan lived in Broughty Ferry in Angus and is believed to have a teenage son. Dave McElroy, chairman of the club where Dave served as secretary, said: “We are all in shock.
“This has created a hole and vacuum for us, both personally and for the club as a whole.
“Dave was probably the most visible and popular member of our club.
“There is no indication of the cause which is unknown and under *investigation.
“It’s a mystery to all of us.
“This was a well-maintained aircraft and Dave was a passionate, *experienced and proficient pilot.”
The doomed microlight was one of a group of four aircraft flying to Mull from Perth when it crashed around noon.
Flying conditions were thought to be ideal and the cause of the accident has yet to be established by crash investigators, who continued to scour the scene yesterday.
Central Scotland Police said their investigation into the incident was ongoing.
The accident happened exactly one month after Adrian Paterson, 49, was killed when his microlight crashed into a field in Kennet in *Clackmannanshire.
Founded in 1929 and with 250 members, the Scottish Aero Club are the oldest and largest flying club in Scotland.
https://mail.google.com/mail/images/cleardot.gif

[jonkil]

First of all my sincere condolences to the deceased families.
As a microlight pilot myself I can state that Scottish info are one of the most helpful and nicest FIS one can talk to. As a regular pilot from Ireland crossing to the mainland UK I have no trouble talking to them at all, from relatively low altitudes too.
The question of use of radios is well aired and discussed, personally I think that students should be taught the proper protocol, I went and sat the full RT course and exam after getting my license and it has been singularly the most useful thing I did. Knowing what "not to say" and getting the concise nature of your call across is so important.... saying that, not holding a RT qualification should not hinder anyone from using ATC services.... not withstanding any of the above I dont believe it would have made a jot of difference regarding this tragic accident. I knew one of the deceased, he was/is a gentleman, a vastly experienced pilot, knew how to fly his aircraft and would have done everything possible, so shall we all wait for the report when it comes out before making judgment.
The fact that we fly microlights makes no difference whatsoever, when I obtained my license years ago, an old guy, flying for many years with many hours told me..... when you have flew a thousand hours you will know that you are still learning...... that is so true and it reinforces that "but for the grace of God go we".
Thankfully I have reached the 1000+ hours and indeed I am still learning, long may it continue.

Jon

[xrayalpha]

Potentially a plus for pprune in that instead of speculating about the unknowns in such a tragedy, which can be hurtful to many friends and family, we have evolved into a discussion about a known (and a known that will have made very little difference to this tragedy, but may assist others in future):

Whether or not it is a good idea to talk to someone (ie Scottish) on the radio, whether or not to carry a locator beacon, who to talk to when making a Mayday, whether or not to have a transponder, and triangulation with D&D.

Have to say, did try a "training fix" with Scottish D&D near Strathaven with a student and they - I think - said they really didn't have the equipment up here for that at our levels. ie below 3k.

I think for location you just can't beat a transponder. For remote areas a beacon. Only one of our school aircraft has a transponder, but I have a locator beacon and I would set it off as soon as was in trouble.

[jonkil]

I think for location you just can't beat a transponder. For remote areas a beacon. Only one of our school aircraft has a transponder, but I have a locator beacon and I would set it off as soon as was in trouble100% agree.

[peterh337]

I know next to nothing about the microlight world but this crash was either in VMC or in IMC.

In between the two is flight in poor vis.

People do fly into terrain in VMC but it is fairly rare, and they won't be setting 7700 when they realise the hill they turned towards is too close. An ELT which auto-activates is the best option.

Traditional CFITs are normally in IMC and the above again applies. The fact that flight in IMC, or even sub-3k vis, is technically illegal is another thing.

[mad_jock]

Peter the place where it happen has some quite complex wind patterns and some very powerful local winds which are extremely hard to predict. A change in 5 knts of wind or a change in direction of 10 degrees or less can completely change things.

Hence why all of us that fly in the area arn't commenting.

It really could be anything from incapacitation right the way through the structural failures/engine problems to getting caught in localised downdraft.

Even if the report came out with that a eagle had attacked them it wouldn't suprise me.

Although if I did meet my maker in a crash I think I woud quite like the out come of the investigation to be Structural failure of the lift surface due to a sea eagle trying to hump the wing.

[peterh337]

Yes; I was just commenting on the radio comms comments. I don't see how carrying or using a radio helps if one is going to fly into terrain.

Post-impact, having a handheld radio has to be a good thing (assuming somebody is alive to use it) alongside an ELT (which should work regardless of survivors).

But why would "A change in 5 knts of wind or a change in direction of 10 degrees or less can completely change things." result in a crash? Are microlighters flying 100ft AGL?

[mad_jock]

Its just the way the winds seem to work. A change of 5 degrees can make it swap from one side of a ridge to the other so you can go from having to shove the nose down with the power off and still be climbing at Vne to 30 seconds later to max chat at the stall going downwards like a brick parrot.

If the wind increases by 5 knts it gets bounced off high and if it drops by 5 knts you get a more linear flow over the hill and no rotar. In the middle you get sheds loads of turbulence.

You are quite right a radio doesn't help with a CFIT if thats what it was, which we have no way of knowing yet. Scottish pilots tend not to :mad: about with clouds unless above MSA they invariably have hard centers.

[gasax]

Mad Jock perhaps under-states the levels of change necessary but at low level in this terrain the wind is massively powerful and varies from mildly helpful to pretty scary. How applicable that is to this incident no one is clear. Knowing the area and conditions it is unlikely they were low enough for this to be an issue.

But if you do go down to the level of the tops of the high ground life is complicated. Get anywhere near the rotor and all bets are off. So if you have to force land this is a major consideration.

I've picked a good old example of what can happen http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Grob%20G115,%20G-BPKG%2008-92.pdfI remember the day as being some somewhat worst than Saturday - if only due to the showers but the wind was also higher and from a different direction. But at that sort of height in Glen Muick you are on the 'shoulder' of the surrounding high ground and running into the lee of Lochnagar - a really bad place to be in terms of rotor and turbulence.

So here was a reasonable light aircraft with two experienced pilots onboard - probably overwhelmed by the weather.

[patowalker]

People do fly into terrain in VMC but it is fairly rare, and they won't be setting 7700 when they realise the hill they turned towards is too close. An ELT which auto-activates is the best option.

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dossier%5Caicfrancea%5CAIC_A_2008_10_EN.pdf

Note: As ULMs are not certified, the accelerations, in particular when landing, are not necessarily compatible with the ELT(A) activation characteristics. Therefore, on some ULMs, the operation of an automatic activation ELT (ELT(A)) cannot be guaranteed.

[mad_jock]

The only sort of comparable place that I can find turbulence charts for is Vagar in the Faeroe Islands

http://www.slv.dk/Dokumenter/dsweb/Get/Document-615/EK_AD_2_EKVG_en.pdf

For the briefing and

http://www.slv.dk/Dokumenter/dsweb/Get/Document-625/EK_AD_2_EKVG_VAC_en.pdf

For the topographical chart.

Although in my experence when its says nil on that chart its bumpy, and light is pull in extra inch each side of your belt and shovel the sick bags off after you have landed. I was never brave enough to risk going in when it was defined as moderate.

[peterh337]

I better not fly over the Alps again then...

Learn something every day.

But, seriously, would an experienced pilot not know that one needs to fly a fair way above the ridges to avoid the turbulence? Or is low flying a part of the thrill?

One rule I read somewhere, which doesn't seem far off based on what I have come across, is that you need 1000ft above the ridge for every 10kt of wind blowing across it, to keep downdraughts below 500fpm.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I really cannot imagine that any locally based microlight pilot, flying out of Glenforsa, was unaware of either weather risks, turbulence, or local terrain.

Many microlight pilots do however consider RT as something that mostly happens to other people. There are perhaps more arguments against than for that position but ultimately - ATC is highly unlikely to stop a non-transponder aircraft in open FIR from flying into a mountain.

And a day or two after the accident, any speculation is really total conjecture, including mine. This isn't a moral point - simply a statement of fact, nobody knows. Yet.

I hope and trust however that AAIB will make sure we do as soon and as thoroughly as they can.

As I said, I'm making no moral point, just saying that until AAIB have done their job, I simply wouldn't trust any conclusions drawn by anybody else.


What is clear however, is that two of our fellow aviators have died, and their fellow pilots, and their friends and especially families, have suffered an awful loss. For this, my deepest sympathies to everybody who knew the two men.

G

[dont overfil]

The group had planned to transit at 7000ft.

I have heard Scottish Info issuing sigmets today for strong wave. Wind is 5-10kts stronger today. Backed by about 10 deg.

MJ I see you have 100kts at FL240 today. I'm glad I don't HAVE to fly.

D.O.

[mad_jock]

I have had 3000ft/min in a Tommy South of Aviemore and when you get that your more than likely to find somewhere else thats doing the same going down.

Peter they have got something over 35 000 ft nearer 40k altitude records gliding in that area of Scotland on the mountain wave.

I don't know if the Alps has local conditions that you need to be careful with. I have never been able to take a direct routing across the Alps due to drift down performance.

Not flying in Scotland now unfortunately. But the 214 isn't showing it that strong.

Westerly at 20-30 knots freezing level 4k up north and 8k down south so nothing special.

[dont overfil]

F214 09.00 to 15.00UTC 55N 00E 230/100 -23

D.O.

[mad_jock]

Are you sure about that and you haven't got yesturdays?

The metoffice current 214 has it dropping off as that low pressure moves north.

Surface pressure charts - Met Office (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/surface-pressure/)

[cats_five]

<snip>
I don't know if the Alps has local conditions that you need to be careful with. <snip>

Most decidedly. All mountains do. Even small hills do - you can get the 'clutching hand' effect where the wind isn't straight on and is flowing over a spur. The briefing notes for soaring the South Downs Ridge (done in a NE) make this very clear.

[2high2fastagain]

Let me add my voice to those who say we should not speculate. The reports suggest the captain was very experienced. So many things could have gone wrong. Perhaps it is a small crumb of comfort for the families to know that the AAIB is the best in the world if it is possible to find out what caused this terrible thing to happen to their loved ones then the AAIB will most certainly find it.

My second point is that the comments about using R/T are in my view, important and not peripheral. I was flying in this area last week with plenty of showers, low cloud and bumpy air all over the region. Tuning into Scottish Info meant that I could build up a really good situational awareness of what was happening with the weather. I found out the altitudes and locations where some were having difficulty with icing, where zones of IMC were appearing all over southern and western scotland, and also who was going from where to where and which of them turned back and where. That, together with a quite superb service from Fisbang and his mates, who must of been tracking me by radar (else their Dead Reckoning is better than mine) made for a much less stressful journey back South. Radio isn't compulsory, but I would use it every single time.

[fisbangwollop]

2high.......Glad you guys had a good trip last week and you found the service we provide of use........as for radar, no radar but an airspace infringement tool yes.......as for my DR it's pretty good using my 1: 500,000 chart, whizz wheel and my piece of string. Look forward to your club venturing north of the Border again soon. :cool::cool::cool:

[Utrinque Apparatus]

Some poignant pics here

Final moments of crash microlight - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9792305/Final-moments-of-crash-microlight.html)

What might possibly be surprising to some (?) is that the Wx / Viz looks great, so perhaps easier to understand why an old hand and experienced microlighter like Dave succumbed ?

I've experienced significant turbulence on occasion in similar conditions in Scotland, on one occasion at 600 feet over the flat Stirling Carse which scared the bejeesus out of me. Conditions on the ground gave no indication whatsoever that we should have stayed at the field and put the kettle on again, nor was the Met flagging up anything other than typical Scottish weather which does of course counsel caution a lot of the time

[mad_jock]

Loads of flat bottom clouds which I would expect to have loads of lift under them. And also loads of holes in the clouds which i would expect down drafts in.

And no it wouldn't suprise me to have areas of turbulance with the limited picture you can see.

[John R81]

Air Accidents Investigation: Pegasus Quik, G-CWIK (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/january_2013/pegasus_quik__g_cwik.cfm)



Synopsis
The aircraft was being flown by an experienced microlight pilot accompanied by the owner, who was a passenger, occupying the rear seat. They were transiting from Perth to Glenforsa, on the Isle of Mull, at about 6,000 ft, above scattered cloud. Approximately 2 nm east of Ben More mountain, in Stirlingshire, the aircraft descended in good visibility, remaining clear of the cloud. The descent and flight up to one second before impact was recorded on a video camera attached to the aircraft. The aircraft levelled off below the cloud base and approximately 100 ft above the summit of the mountain. It continued towards the mountain and encountered severe turbulence in the lee of the summit. This appeared to cause the pilot to lose control of the aircraft, which impacted the south side of the summit, fatally injuring both occupants.

[Unusual Attitude]

Sad reading, RIP lads.

UA

[mad_jock]

Aye could have happened to any of us.

[dont overfil]

The group that flew out that day were aware of the possibility of severe turbulance and had planned to track south of the hills. Why Dave went against his own judgement once airborne is anyones guess. RIP.

D.O.

[Utrinque Apparatus]

Mad Jock

Agree with you, but my point is the deceptive seduction to fly lower than advisable on such days, which none of us are immune to - I'm certainly guilty of it albeit with the calculated risk as much in my favour as possible ? Turbulence is a common feature of mountain flying as you say and arguably 99.99% of the time doesn't result in fatalities.

DO, I agree with your sentiments, a tragic loss all round

[Unusual Attitude]

Why Dave went against his own judgement once airborne is anyones guess. RIP.

DO, as much as it pains me to say it I think the fact the GoPro was turned on right before starting their descent towards Ben More probably says it all. I suspect they found the conditions at 6000' better than expected and decided to get some nice footage of the summit, the sort of thing I'm sure we've all done at some stage.

Their but for the grace of god.....

[fisbangwollop]

The final moments before two die in microlight crash | Herald Scotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/the-final-moments-before-two-die-in-microlight-crash.19871558)

[maxred]

Sentiments as those previously stated.

The images are quite startling, and God only knows why he would want to descend to app,100 feet over the summit, given the wind predictions on the day. Ben More is a lump, and, as all of the local flyers on here realise, all these mountain areas must be given the utmost respect, at all times of the year.

I have flown around these hills for years, and conditions change in seconds, weather features can form instantly, wave is a constant issue, and turbulence, can be a known constant. Every year GASIL always ran a piece on mountain flying, the do's and the don'ts, and the overriding theme was wind, down drafts and updraft's, transitting pilots should always pay particular attention to wind direction. Obviously they were lulled into thinking it would be alright, unfortunately, it was all very wrong.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

This is very sad. A couple of guys out with their mates in other microlights for a fly-out on what seems a lovely day and it ends in such tragedy.

A few years ago we were flying to Caernarfon in a Chipmunk. Surface wind at Caernarfon was less than 5 kts, so I was taken by surprise when downwind of Snowdon, north of the field following the Menai Straight, we entered the most severe turbulence I have ever experienced. The aeroplane was thrown about in all axis as well as vertically up and down. The stick and rudder seemed almost ineffective and wisps of rotor cloud formed and dissolved around us in the otherwise clear but tortured air.

I hardly had control of the aeroplane, but managed to turn away from the hills and descend, until thankfully we entered calmer air. Whatever the wind speed over the Snowdon range it was a heck of a lot more than 5kts! 40 or 50 would be nearer the mark! The venturi effect must have been boosted not only by the terrain but by the air mass above the mountains.

A similar but much smoother venturi effect caught a friend of mine instructing in a C150 at night in the Peak District. Surface wind at Manchester (who were vectoring them) was calm, yet they were forced down, despite selecting climb power and flap, in very strong mountain wave into the lee side of Kinder Scout, escaping with moderate injuries (the aeroplane was wrecked).

You don't have to fly within a few hundered feet downwind of a big mountain to get into trouble if there's a locally very strong venturi-induced wind.

[India Four Two]

The AAIB report and images are very sobering and thought provoking, for anyone who flys in the hills in light aircraft.

There are a number of documents available on the internet covering mountain flying. An example is the Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand ‘Good Aviation Practice (GAP), Mountain Flying’ publicationI was pleased to see this reference in the report. I recommend this document to all pilots, even those who normally fly in the flat lands. There are several other excellent publications, all downloadable as pdf files, from:
Good Aviation Practice (GAP) Booklets (http://www.caa.govt.nz/safety_info/good_aviation_practice.htm)

I42

[piperboy84]

The AAIB report and images are very sobering and thought provoking, for anyone who flys in the hills in light aircraft.

It certainly is.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

On a recent visit abroad (there aren't any hills in East Anglia) I asked about flying over the local hills (not that I wanted to, I was just curious about what precautions they took).

"We don't," was the answer. "But if we really want to we'll do so only on a day with exactly the right weather, and we'll be 2,000' above the peaks." This was in 172s, not microlights.

[dont overfil]

It's not just over the mountains there can be problems.

Last year I had 800fpm down (and up) 15nm south of Newcastle. The autopilot tripped as it couldn't keep up. The wind was negligible on the ground but showing 270/40 at 8500ft. We were 40nm east of the Lake district which I presume was causing the problem.

Fortunately it only lasted a few minutes. It took full power and a speed loss of 45kts to maintain altitude.

D.O.

[India Four Two]

I asked about flying over the local hills

Gertrude,
I'm interested to know where that was.

They would do hardly any flying with that attitude, in the Alps, Western Canada, Western US or New Zealand.

[flystrathclyde]

The 2 guys involved were from The Scottish Aero Club at Perth Airport and the incident was devastating for many of their fellow members.
Below is an extract from their latest member bulletin and they are making real efforts to help other ensure this type of incident does not happen again.

"On Wednesday 30th of January, Dai Heather-Hayes will lead a safety briefing on Mountain Flying - to which you are all invited to attend. This invitation is open to pilots from other clubs to whom we extend a warm welcome. Starting at 19:30, I urge all that take to the skies to attend. As with previous briefings it will be a good humoured and informative affair when everyone will have the opportunity to contribute. You can’t do too much of this stuff. The SAC is committed to the safety of its members and calls upon you all to continuously develop your skills, knowledge and responsibilities as pilots."

Well done guys for opening it up to the other clubs.

Allan

[cats_five]

It's not just over the mountains there can be problems.

Last year I had 800fpm down (and up) 15nm south of Newcastle. The autopilot tripped as it couldn't keep up. The wind was negligible on the ground but showing 270/40 at 8500ft. We were 40nm east of the Lake district which I presume was causing the problem.

Fortunately it only lasted a few minutes. It took full power and a speed loss of 45kts to maintain altitude.

D.O.

The Penines often generate mountain wave which can affect anywhere downwind of them, and that sounds exactly like what you were in. Not sure how good a generator the Lakeland hills are, but I expect they contributed. A good resource for predicting wave (and thermal activity) is RASP - RASPtableGM (http://rasp.inn.leedsmet.ac.uk/RASPtableGM8/RASPtableGM.html)

[The Old Fat One]

I have been reading this thread with some interest as my best friend has recently taken up microlighting and just soloed. Some time back I was searching pprune for microlighting info for him, and stumbled across this thread.

A bit of background. Although not a pilot, I was a full career aviator in the RAF and as both an aircraft commander and senior officer authorising officer on a squadron I was immersed in human factors, flight safety, CRM etc for over 27 years....so I've read, analysed and debriefed many hundreds of accident reports.

I have very little knowledge of microlighting (hence my questions below), but understand the very basics.

Finally, as a munroist, I'm very familiar with the venturi effect on mountains. by coincidence I traversed the summit of Ben More and its neighbour Stob Binnein, 3 days after this sad and tragic event.

My questions relate only the cause/effect and analysis of the accident. No judgement is intended. As an ex professional aviator it distresses me that aviation, civil and military, struggles so hard to separate the analytical from the judgemental. Accident reports IMO are integral to flight safety and any other purpose should be kept well out the way.

Apologies for the lengthy introduction, but my experience with pprune suggests if you don't make your intentions clear, posters will rip you a new one.

I have read the accident report in depth and discussed it with my friend. Two things puzzle me. I hope one or two of you microlighters out there can help me.

1. In overflying the summit (and hill walkers) at 100 ft, was the commander not in breach of the Air Navigation Act? This does not appear to be mentioned in the report (or is the link just to a redacted version of it?).

2. Although the commander was experienced the report says he only has one hour on "type". The keyword here being "type". I understand the ac belonged to the passenger, but if the use of "type" is accurate, it suggests he had virtually no experience of this "type" of microlight. Question...is that significant? Or are microlights so similar that it does not matter?

again I stress, these questions are asked for the purpose of helping a budding microlight pilot understand how human factors affect every part of aviation, in whatever form. No judgement of the commanders actions that day are implied or intended.

Safe flying folks, whatever your chosen chariot.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

1. In overflying the summit (and hill walkers) at 100 ft, was the commander not in breach of the Air Navigation Act? This does not appear to be mentioned in the report (or is the link just to a redacted version of it?).

My reading of the report is that the aircraft never reached the peak, but entered severe turbulence approaching the mountain, dived, and crashed into it some distance below the peak. The pilot did not therefore overfly the walkers on the summit and his intention may well have been to route around it, remaining at least 500' away at all times.

[maxred]

Summary:
The aircraft was being flown by an experienced microlight pilot who was accompanied by the owner, as a passenger, occupying the rear seat. They were transiting from Perth to Glenforsa, on the Isle of Mull, at about 6,000 ft, above scattered cloud. Approximately 2 nm east of Ben More mountain, in Stirlingshire, the aircraft descended in good visibility, remaining clear of the cloud. The descent and flight up to one second before impact was recorded on a video camera attached to the aircraft. The aircraft levelled off below the cloud base and approximately 100 ft above the summit of the mountain. It continued towards the mountain and encountered severe turbulence in the lee of the summit. This appeared to cause the pilot to lose control of the aircraft, which impacted the south side of the summit, fatally injuring both occupants.

Taken from the report............

[mad_jock]

your only in breach of rule 5 if you intentionally over fly a person who is visable.

Some stalkers tried to get an aircraft done for a rule 5 bust for over flying them and the judge rule that they were in camo gear and if the pilot can't see you then they have no way of being able to avoid you.

That was in a Scottish court so its common law now in Scotland. So if they were sitting behind a cairn or wearing DPM or clothes that blend in you can just say you didn't see them. If you had of seen them you would have avoided them.

But to be honest this is a mute point when the rules change with EASA because you won't be able to go below 500agl unless TO and landing unless your MIL.

[astir 8]

There had better be a continuation of the exception to the 500 foot rule for gliders ridge soaring!

[FlyingKiwi_73]

That kind of turbulence can happen even at low levels if the wind is right, I was still a student and only just past Solo, I had entered left base for Runway 30 at NZOM this takes you into a small valley right up against the hills.

I entered a downdraft which took me from approx 900ft to 400 ft very quickly, having 10 deg flap i had throttle full open and the nose as high as i dared and i was still going down. had i not flown through it horizontally i would have arrived very quickly on the valley floor and probably would not have survived.

Also had a few friends get into Mountain wave over the southern alps having to call CHCH Info as they were throttled back to idle and going up at over 1000 fpm and busting airspace. ASI firmly in the yellow. I those cases it would only take some misjudged sharp control inputs to induce structural failure.

FK

[gasax]

I started a post after reading the AAIB report and then thought better of it. I knew the pilot well enough to chat to occasionally and given his knowledge and general approach I fully expected that the cause of the crash would not be deliberately flying into the rotor of Ben More.

However it seems that is pretty much what happened, probably to get some good video of the summit. The report states there were no visual clues to the wind at height such as spindrift which is fair enough - although in my experience spindrift is pretty rare - snow here tends to be pretty wet and claggy so you do not see it often.

It is interesting that no data was recovered from the GPS. From my experience it is one of the best ways of sorting out what the local wind in doing and in all probability was showing grounds speeds in the 30 odd knot range - which should have been a very clear indicator of what to expect.

I can only assume that a decision was made to go and 'have a look' at Ben More on the hoff, the camera positioning meant that flying straight toward it was necessary and the position they made that decision in meant heading onto the rotor. I did not fly that day - I decided it would take 'too long' and be 'too bumpy' to go to the west coast but atually it was not a bad day, certainly nothing exceptional.

This report is a nasty reminder of how unforgiving our hobby can be when decisions are made.

[peterh337]

This report is a nasty reminder of how unforgiving our hobby can be when decisions are made.

That is true, in the sense that if you hit the ground in a plane, the results are not going to be good, but at the same time it is no rocket science to take one look at the MSLP chart, see the isobars very close together ( = strong winds), and to thus expect strong turbulence which that type of plane is poorly equipped for, in terms of both excess engine power and structural strength.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

it is no rocket science to take one look at the MSLP chart, see the isobars very close together ( = strong winds), and to thus expect strong turbulence which that type of plane is poorly equipped for, in terms of both excess engine power and structural strength.

Unfortunately it's not that simple. When it happened to me, and to my mate in the Kinder Scout crash, the isobars showed no such pattern. Local venturi effect of terrain and overlying air masses can have a massive effect on windspeed over high ground.

[peterh337]

On the contrary - I think it was a very windy day.

A witness on top of Ben More saw the last moments of
the aircraft’s flight but did not see or hear the impact.
He described the wind at the summit as “very strong”
and that when he removed an item of clothing from his
rucksack it was nearly “ripped” out of his hand by the
wind.

Over Scotland, the surface
wind observations valid at 1100 hrs UTC show westerly
winds of 10-15 kt with a 2,000 ft gradient wind of
310° at 25-28 kt. At Glen Ogle, near the crash site, the
surface wind between 1000 and 1200 UTC was westerly
16‑19 kt with gusts of 24-26 kt.

Was this data not available to the pilot, preflight? Form 214, etc.

I would think that a surface wind of 20kt is going to be 30-40kt at any altitude. It's one of the most basic rules in flight. And it veers to the right, etc, etc...

the isobars showed no such pattern. Local venturi effect of terrain and overlying air masses can have a massive effect on windspeed over high ground.

Mountains cannot make wind out of nothing, using some venturi effect. There has to be a general airflow, or updraughts by solar heating.

[dont overfil]

As I said earlier.

The group that flew out that day were aware of the possibility of severe turbulance and had planned to track south of the hills. Why Dave went against his own judgement once airborne is anyones guess. RIP.

D.O.

[Unusual Attitude]

On the contrary - I think it was a very windy day.

Quote:
A witness on top of Ben More saw the last moments of
the aircraft’s flight but did not see or hear the impact.
He described the wind at the summit as “very strong”
and that when he removed an item of clothing from his
rucksack it was nearly “ripped” out of his hand by the
wind.

Over Scotland, the surface
wind observations valid at 1100 hrs UTC show westerly
winds of 10-15 kt with a 2,000 ft gradient wind of
310° at 25-28 kt. At Glen Ogle, near the crash site, the
surface wind between 1000 and 1200 UTC was westerly
16‑19 kt with gusts of 24-26 kt.

Certainly nothing unusual about those sort of winds in Scotland and Dave would have done a great deal of his 800hrs+ flying in those sort of conditions.

I was always taught that if the wind is over 15kts on the ground that you stay the heck away from the lee side of the hills, obviously thats a very rough / approximate rule but its worked for me all these years and I intend to stick to it....

[maxred]

Certainly nothing unusual about those sort of winds in Scotland and Dave would have done a great deal of his 800hrs+ flying in those sort of conditions.

Peters point was to state that the winds were forecast and, easily predicted. The rest of the flying group knew this, and planned to transit well clear of this particular route.

That is why it is all the more baffling as to why Dave, with his experience, and with the Met facilities available at Perth, decided to do what he did.

[dont overfil]

That is why it is all the more baffling as to why Dave, with his experience, and with the Met facilities available at Perth, decided to do what he did.

It's a human psycological glitch which many of us have.

Example: Someone spends time scraping the ice off his car, jumps in and drives off then is surprised when he slides off the road.

There's probably a medical name for it. We can all be guilty of knowing something may cause a problem but not acting on it.

D.O.

[The Old Fat One]

It's a human psycological glitch which many of us have.

Precisely.

Having chatted it through with my microlighting pal, that is the human factors thought I left him with:don't ask yourself why he did this, ask yourself why you won't one day do something similar. And if your answer is, I'm not that dumb...you're kidding yourself.

Read enough accident reports and hopefully, hopefully just as you are about to do something you shouldn't be doing, somewhere deep in the grey matter a warning bell will sound and you'll wave it off. Probably accompanied with a big dose of "WTF was I thinking".

[piperboy84]

"On Wednesday 30th of January, Dai Heather-Hayes will lead a safety briefing on Mountain Flying - to which you are all invited to attend. This invitation is open to pilots from other clubs to whom we extend a warm welcome. Starting at 19:30, I urge all that take to the skies to attend.

It was a very well presented and attended briefing, I learned a lot. Big thanks to Heather-Hayes and SAC Perth

[Crash one]

Much enjoyed & learned, SAC & Dai, take a bow!!! SAC need a bigger hut:ok::ok::ok: