PA38 V C152

[Blue Bandit]

Hello fellow pilots.:O

Can any of any of those experienced aviators out there offer sound and good advice to a novice. Given the choice, would you prefer to obtain your PPL in a low wing PA38 or high wing C152? I am aware of the pros and cons of visability of the high wing Cessna compared to the PA38. I have flown both, prefer the PA38 for visability, but the C152 for stabilty and ease of control. Any advice/thoughts/previous experience greatly appreciated.:ok:

BB

[Ds3]

My opinion may not hold much relevance as I have no experience in a PA38, however I am learning in a low wing Robin HR200 and much prefer it to the C152.

Ok the C152 is more stable in terms of basic flight controls, but I find the Robin far more involving and therefore interesting to fly, and feel like it's a better learning experience as it requires more input.

Having only flown the Robin previously I was also shocked at how poor the visibility in the C152 was, especially in the circuit. The visibility in the Robin is far superior, as I imagine it would be in the PA38.

To be honest though, if you've already flown both just go for the one you prefered!

[RTN11]

PA38 hands down.

More space, the C152 is far too cramped.
Slightly faster, so you get more for your money when it comes to nav training.
Better view.
Better stall characteristics (from a teaching/learning point of view)

The 152 does have a better useful load and take off performance, but if you and your instructor aren't too heavy then all is well.

Ultimately, both have had their day and the PA38 in particular is a dying breed due to it's wing life limitations. I'd rather find something a bit more modern, perhaps a nice robin or diamond. But given the choice between the two, PA38 every time.

[abgd]

Not sure that I count as an experienced aviator... In fact I'm sure that I don't. However I recently got my PPL on PA38s and a PA28, and I'm currently flying a C152.

I found the transition surprisingly easy. It is fun to see how different manufacturers do things, though my C152 landings still aren't as good as my PA38 landings.

If it's in the same flying school and you're progressing reasonably well, you may be able to get time on both. The C152 needs better rudder control, and the PA38 is more entertaining in the stall.

If it's at different flying schools, I'd choose on the basis of the flying school and instructors and not the aircraft.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Pa 38 vs C 150 ?

Pick the one that has the best instructor. What airplane you learn on has the least effect on how good a PPL you will become.

[A and C]

I prefer the PA38 as a training platform from the pure flying point of view and in an ideal would that would be my trainer of choice.

Unfortunatly other factors come into play, the issues with the PA38 spar life have resulted in the aftermarket (PMA) parts makers are not interested in making parts, the C152 has no problems with airframe life so is seen as a good investment for these parts makers.

This has the result of making the spare parts for the PA38 a real issue and affects the reliability, for the customer this will result in canceled flying lessons if you are unlucky and lost revenue for the flying club.

That is why when I started my leasing business it was the C152 that was clearly the aircraft to buy and not the PA38.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I know both types well, and agree completely with the above three posts.

G

[mad_jock]

BPF has it right to be honest. Unfortunately your not really qualified to know that either.

Then PA38 it will teach how to fly properly without skirting by the nasty stuff. It will bite if you screw up and you will be a better pilot for it.

The reason why the poster above transitioned so easily is because they ha to learn to fly properly from the beginning. Its the foundations for the rest fo your life flying which is why the instructors makes more of a difference than the airframe.

[Winhern]

On top of all the above good reasons....
The one you would most want to hire/continue flying in when you have got your licence.

[Kengineer-130]

I loved flying the 150/2, with 40 degrees of flap it can be landed on the smallest strip, great rugged little aircraft. I also did a bit of spin training in an aerobat, which was good fun.

I have also done a fair amount of flying in a PA28, overall I would say that the Cessna is more fun to fly, the low Wing aircraft are more useful for distance work etc.

Never flown a PA38 so can't really comment on them, but both high & low wing have their own visibility issues, the key is to know them & plan your lookout around the known blind spots.

[RTN11]

The instructor clearly makes a lot more difference than the aircraft, but it's difficult to make a proper comparison.

You can't really go around the club asking who's best, you're not going to get a proper answer, and some school just seem to allocate students to whoever is on the ground at that particular moment. You could get the most experienced instructor who loves teaching, or end up with some fresh faced 250 hours guy who is only doing it for the hours.

You can always request another instructor, but that might be after flying a few hours and learning a load of rubbish.

[pudoc]

Never flown a low wing aircraft but that the C152's high wing caught me out once. Was chugging along and all of a sudden a Cirrus appeared out of nowhere probably about 200ft above me. He overtook me from my back left and was heading towards my front right. Eek. Never saw him coming and it made me jump. This all happend on my skills test and I think the examiner was a bit puzzled where he came from too.

Instructors say to lift the wing slightly during a lookout but I still wouldn't have seen him, plus I was doing a FREDA check not a lookout. I just imagine that if I had started a climb instead of a FREDA check I might not be here right now!

Only ever happend once though. Same could happen on a low wing a/c too.

If you're a big person, stay away from a C152. They are tin cans with pillows as seats. My landings aren't great, they aren't hard but quite firm, but I've had the seat collapse on me and my headphones became partially disconnected from the plug. I have no idea how this happend.

PA38 doesn't seem much bigger though. Take a seat in a C152 and PA38 and see what you feel most comfortable in. There's nothing worse than doing an important lesson/skills test and you've got a numb arse.

My landings aren't that bad, I promise. :O

[mad_jock]

The space and viz in a PA38 can't be compared to a C152.

When flying/instructing in a C150/152 I am normally feet at an uncomfy angle shoulders slightly at an angle with one arm over the back of my seat to get myself out the way of the student. If we are both pie munchers shutting the door can be a multiple attempts when the oppersite side pops open every time a door is shut. My head also comes into contact with the roof. And my arm is always pressed against the door.

The PA38 I can sit and not reach the pedals with the seat fully back sitting straight shoulders and with similar sized bloke not touch shoulders. My head only came into contact with the roof when an ATCO 1 was at the controls. And I don't touch the door.

Vents chuck out more air both hot and cold. Fuek tank selector is in a easy reach position from both sides.

Viz is cracking.

[peterh337]

I have 20hrs in PA38s and about 30 in C152s, both of which I flew in my PPL. Total time since 1500hrs.

The answer will depend to some degree on what you can rent after you get your PPL, and your attitude to currency etc.

Few people can rent a PA38, and few people want to IMHO because it is such a crappy plane for going places. It is lively and has a wild stall behaviour with a rapid wing drop which makes the Brighton Pier amusement arcade look tame (which is why instructors like them) but that is about all one can say for it. On a nice summer day, with a bit of convective activity in the air, it is a constant handful to keep flying straight. It also suffers from major water leaks into both the cockpit and the fuel tanks. The ones I used to fly stank like a public phone booth where people used to have a p*ss (one used to have 1/2" of water on the floor) and I drained out huge amounts of water (~1 litre on one occassion, following a night of heavy rain) from the tanks, presumably due to perished filler cap seals. The elevator trim is rubbish which makes it even more work to fly. The canopy gives good visibility but you sweat like a pig on any day when the sun is shining.

The C152 is much nicer to fly, and due to the reduced ground effect is easier to land. If you want to go somewhere, within a very tight budget, then of the two types it is the aircraft of choice, and if you do your PPL in it, you will come out with loads of currency on type which in aviation is about 90% of the game.

In reality both are likely to be totally clapped out out, due to the sheer age of these types, but a C152 has a chance of being better, whereas all the PA38s I have seen or flown in were just run being down into the ground. Those I flew had the plastic worn off the yokes so one was holding onto bare rusted steel, rusted from decades of sweat flying circuits :)

[Dan the weegie]

Few people can rent a PA38, and few people want to IMHO because it is such a crappy plane for going places. It is lively and has a wild stall behaviour with a rapid wing drop which makes the Brighton Pier amusement arcade look tame (which is why instructors like them) but that is about all one can say for it. On a nice summer day, with a bit of convective activity in the air, it is a constant handful to keep flying straight. It also suffers from major water leaks into both the cockpit and the fuel tanks. The ones I used to fly stank like a public phone booth where people used to have a p*ss (one used to have 1/2" of water on the floor) and I drained out huge amounts of water (~1 litre on one occassion, following a night of heavy rain) from the tanks, presumably due to perished filler cap seals. The elevator trim is rubbish which makes it even more work to fly. The canopy gives good visibility but you sweat like a pig on any day when the sun is shining.

Sorry Peter but that says more about the quality of the maintenance than anything else. I have hundreds of hours in both :) They're both fine for learning in and we didn't have problems with stink or water or water in the fuel tanks. It was only ever a problem if someone left the door open :).

As for it being a constant handful I completely disagree, it's a little less stable than the 152 in the cruise but that's good for training nav technique and radial scan. As for the stall, wild is definitely not the adjective I'd use, it has a deliberate wing drop to teach the technique of lowering the nose and not trying to recover with rudder or aileron. Perhaps it felt a bit scary when you were doing it? Could have had more to do with how you were being taught. The stall is active but not wild by any stretch unless you think that 10 degrees nose up, or a 45 deg AoB turn are 'extreme' attitudes. Which you don't.

That said, what is definitely true is that you should fly in what you're comfortable with, both are perfectly fine and have taught millions of people to fly, you wont go wrong with either so try both and see which suits you :).

[mad_jock]

It is lively and has a wild stall behaviour with a rapid wing drop which makes the Brighton Pier amusement arcade look tame (which is why instructors like them) but that is about all one can say for it. On a nice summer day, with a bit of convective activity in the air, it is a constant handful to keep flying straight.

:D

I have something like 700 hours in PA38's and 200 in C152's.

The reason Peter that the wing dropped was because you were putting incorrect control inputs in. Something that PA38 students learn not to do.

Again mountians in scotland once students had been taught to fly properly they had absoutely no problem whats so ever flying in a straight line hands off the stick doing Nav ex's be it being windy or convective wx.


As for the leaks some are good planes others are bad, the school use covers or is hangered sorts that out. But as you rightly say they are old and clapped out as are the school C152 fleets.

And yes they are designed as a training aircraft not for going touring. BUt once you have passed moving onto another type holds no drama's because you have been taught properly to be a pilot. Where as students moving onto a less boring type from the C152 have to learn a new skill set.

My opinion as a 1000 hour instructor is that they produce a better pilot at the end of the PPL and one that has solid foundation in skills which will allow an easy transition to other types. Swapping a PA38 to a C152 takes an hour of ground school and an hour in the air. Other way round its about 2-3 hours but usually the student wants more and thats purely to build the skills they are missing.

[peterh337]

I quite enjoyed stalls and wing drops in the PA38.

Even in the TB20 I often go up and drill some holes in clouds, fly 60 degree turns around vertical bits of fluff, etc :)

I would merely question the value of somebody doing their PPL in them. Already, we have a situation where ~90% of new PPLs chuck in flying for good very soon afterwards.

[mad_jock]

Maybe because flying a docile heap doesn't push any buttons in the fun stakes.

Also as well getting crammed into a tiny cockpit sharing body space with the instructor doesn't really engage nice thoughts.

We had quite alot of post PPL activity afterwards. In fact some are still heading north 10 years after I have left, the school gone bust and another one started. Just to fly around the area in a Tommy. But then again we did have some of the best scenery in the UK from the training area.

And as for the wings drops etc. When I first started instructing on the aircraft I too dropped a wing. By the end of the 700 hours it never dropped a wing in 300 hours, same airframes. Its all in how you handle the stick.

[Maoraigh1]

Its all in how you handle the stick
And the pedals??

[mad_jock]

Don't really need the pedals if you do it properly just a gentle squeeze to stop any yaw developing.

Its actually the lack of control input which stops the wing drop.

[abgd]

I managed to get a PA38 onto its back by careful manipulation of the pedals, so it can be spirited in the wrong hands and feet.

[mad_jock]

And will you ever do the same manipulation of said pedals again in such a manner?

[abgd]

Yes - any chance I get!*

* subject to aircraft approval and having an aerobatics instructor with me.