EK Pay Review

[BigGeordie]

Pay review is in your inbox.

3% increment and....

.....nothing.

Strikes me as a little mean. Profits are down but the cost of living in Dubai isn't. In real terms this is very much a pay cut.

[Dropp the Pilot]

To be accurate, you will receive 3% if you are not already at the top of the scale. If you have reached the top there is no increase.

Does anyone know where the scale is printed, or could anyone say what the top is? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[yoyonow]

Not sure where it's printed but step 30 is the top.

[donpizmeov]

Drop the pay scale was posted last year in the EK private forum a search there may turn it up. If you cant find it PM me as I may still have a copy.
Perhaps its time to get rid of the rotating bid groups and go to date of joining for rosters/leave etc. Its seems the fellas that have been here the longest are being ripped off money wise by the company, so perhaps its time to give them quality of life?

The Don

[Trader]

don- how are the longer term guys being ripped off? Every company has and end to their 'scale' so I don't see how EK should be different. I'm not trying to be difficult, just realistic. What should be happening is that those scales increase with inflation---in that regard the senior guys are losing!

[donpizmeov]

Pay scale is back in EK forum if anyone wants to take a look.

Trader when was the last time a new step was added to the pay scale? Doesn't seem very fair that we get 3% and they get nothing.

The don

[falconeasydriver]

Am I missing the bleeding obvious but is this 3% going to be added to the next step? Or is a case of wait for the CA letter?
Comprehension never was my strong suit.

[Alconguin Crusader]

You are now crying FAIR? How long have you worked at EK. You should know they are rarely fair, witnes the Bonus this year.

[donpizmeov]

A few years more than you AC. Bonus smoanus, they set a target just above the moon and you are surprised we don't get a bonus?
Falcon add 3% to your basic and thats the next step. Use to be a automatic thing getting the step. Now it seems TCAS think otherwise it would appear. To be clear, there is no pay rise, just the step.

The Don

[Swan Man]

It would seem since the 777 pilots are flying so much making up for down time for the 380 the Boeing pilots should get about 4 weeks bonus from the Airbus pilots.
The 380 guys are flying 4-8 days a month and we are busting our arse at 95 hours and the Boeing pilots dont get anything for it. Before all you limp d%&ks say anything you can shove that 60 dhs flt pay where the sun don't shine.
Talk about unfair Don. Never mind we are dealing with Arab mentally.

[Ketek400]

90+ hrs long haul is easier than 65hrs in the 330. At least you get to spend some 5hrs plus in the bunk! Try 3 TRV, HYD and MAA in a row at 2am.

[Easy Ryder]

Boo Hoo Swan Man :{ cry me a river....

"I'm working hard wah wah wah" :ugh:

[jumbo1]

And all the other world airlines are giving how much pay increase to their pilots?
:rolleyes:
Those that are still in business that is..

[Swan Man]

The response from the EK pilot group does not surprise me in the slightest. No wonder we are in the position we are in.
Other airlines do not have slave labor and most pilots do not live in a city with inflation. How far are we behind from last year and the airline MADE $630 MILLION!
The yield on that is somewhere near 3.7%. That is huge and the biggest reason for that is the very high hourly utiliziation of the Boeing pilots.
65 hours for the main Airbus fleet? 4-8 days working for the crack pilots? Limp Rider is just happy to have a job though. Give him a 40% pay cut and he still makes more at EK than he did at his last ****e airline.

[donpizmeov]

Calm down Swan man. That's 4 to 8 days work each and every month the 380 dudes are doing. It all adds up after a while.
Its good those Boeing chaps are helping them out. :ok:

the Don

[White Knight]

biggest reason for that is the very high hourly utiliziation of the Boeing pilots

And I recall a few years ago that the 340 guys were doing the massive hours and the John Deere types were sitting on their backsides. Swings and roundabouts and all that... Grow up and stop sobbing:rolleyes:

[GoreTex]

Swanie,
I am doing 95 hrs on the big bus before pressing 2, 10 days OFF and believe me all the flights suck, the good ones go to the management boys, then the trainers and the left overs go to the line pigs.

PS: it also helps if you come from a tiny island in the Mediterranean just north of Lybia

[Swan Man]

No wonder we as Emirates pilots are the laughing stock to the good airlines of the world.
We will never achieve Industry Standard pay and conditions with attitudes like the ones posted above.
13% operating costs, no wonder we made so much money. Kind of refelects on us doesn't it.

[Jetaim]

Come on guys..you are helping the Sheik repaying its 109 billion dollars debts. Net worth of Dubai is negative ..keep it in mind for the future.
The world id turning page, greedy ,unregulated, globalized capitalism is at the end...Dubai outlook never been grimmer.

[vfenext]

Swan Man, I agree with the sentiment of your post but the 13% operating cost does not include the pilot group.

[maligno]

CSA is interviewing. commuting 6/2, 215k a year after tax. 80 hrs max per month. 230 USD extra over 80 hrs.
Scoot also interviewing, but its OK only for those without kids.

China Southern ordered 10 777 for 2013
Eastern China just ordered 20 777 two weeks ago.

Future, salary and conditions looking brighter in South east Asia.

Here, it will become worse and worse. This is just the beginning.
(Medical, allowances, days OFF, Holidays, etc etc etc and prices in Dubai in the skies.....This is not NY, Sydney, Singapore, London, etc etc...its just Dubai, desert, sand, beach and Malls...not even comparable to the big cities of the world)

If you are looking for life quality, time OFF and good money to save for your future, then Dubai and Emirates is not the place anymore.

Dont burn brain cells anymore. Take care of your health and your love ones.

Bye bye those memorable times.

[donpizmeov]

Swan man I apologise. I didn't know that all the airbus pilots colluded to make up the 380 wing crack saga just to get you and your Boeing mates to work harder. What a pack of clever pr@cks they must be to do that. :ugh:

You Muppet!!!!

the Don

[Seat99k]

I think the future is looking more & more like being in china for most of us. I guess EK will end up like gulf air.

[White Knight]

:cool:I think the future is looking more & more like being in china for most of us. I guess EK will end up like gulf air

You're welcome to the chinks matey! Think I'll take my chances with the habibis thanks:ok::ok:

Here, it will become worse and worse. This is just the beginning.
(Medical, allowances, days OFF, Holidays, etc etc etc and prices in Dubai in the skies.....This is not NY, Sydney, Singapore, London, etc etc...its just Dubai, desert, sand, beach and Malls...not even comparable to the big cities of the world)



Yeah? I'll remind you in a couple of years............:ugh::ugh::ugh: Why the hell anyone would want to live in London I don't know. Or Sydney! (full of aussies etc). And Singapore? Where is that??????????

Seriously though; what has happened to allowances, days off, holidays etc etc etc? Complete hysterical bollocks:=:yuk::{:ugh:

I'm glad I'm not Greek:cool::rolleyes::cool::rolleyes:

[Bindair Dundat]

RE: CSA
6/2 is NOT a commuting contract....it is a slow road to divorce. So even if the pay and flying conditions are better, that condition is not and no one should sign on the dotted line even uttering that is a commuting roster. Come on, there is a finite number of pilots in the world with upwards of 12k on heavy equipment. Stop jumping through hoops for these operators and collectively make them up the terms. Everyone will benefit in the end.

[Bindair Dundat]

White Knight...you can have Dubai and all the loveliness it provides with your habibi mates. Most would take London or Sydney anyday over DXB..chinks included you racist slug.

[twentyyearstoolate]

Be very careful of China Southern guys. The astronaut medical could see you unemployed very easily. I have never failed a medical in my life, and that even counts for Korea where they are super strict. I did fail the China one though!

I hear all the moaning about pay increase not being enough. I wholeheartedly agree, however, this is going on in the rest of the world, and not just pilots. The huge inflationary (con by the banks) world we are in makes us all worse of financially for the work we do. That is of course, unless you're a CEO or Banker.

Keep fighting for more though guys!!

[pilotday]

One can only hope we have a mass exodus and/or no new recruits that EK sweetens the deal enough to staff airplanes...really the only voting power pilots have at EK.

Too bad the pilots at EK don't have enough unity to have organized "sick outs" or "slow downs"

EK mngt keeps up the fear tactics, all nationalities may put aside their differences and team up with a common goal...make management fear us

[Eric Carr]

All in all an easy easy 100k AED take home in hand for a 777 captain flying
about 85 hours.

I'm not saying you're wrong but if this is true why are SQ losing pilots to EK:confused:

[twentyyearstoolate]

A380 Jockey: Sorry to burst my bubble!? Settle down tiger..just the way I see things.

If SIA is so rosy, why not go and join them? Oh, that's right they're not hiring on the 777 and downsizing by using their Aircraft with Scoot...on LESS PAY!!

I'm not the enemy, I want Airlines to pay more. Much more. Our salaries in general have been going down for many years in reality. I'm just saying our professions aren't the only ones suffering.

I certainly hope you EK guys get a decent rise, as I do for all of my fellow Aviators. But if there are other Airlines paying more, then Shut up and Vote with your feet!

[etops777]

A380 jockey

Maybe your friend did read them to you correctly and that you have a different interpretations.

They did have an increase to their basic salary plus hourly flight pay. To get to 19000 SGD basic he would have to be a very senior capt in SQ. You need to make the right comparison between the two senior Capts at both airlines.

MVC is included in your basic not an addition. The tax rates in Sin is not 10%..try more like between 15 to 17%. Singaporeans and permanent resident card holders are entitled to CPF whereas expats on an employment pass does not, hence the 10000 sgd per year bonus pay out at the end of your contract. Outstation allowances generally higher than that of EK but you're not going to be on all layover trips...777 does quite bit of turn around..

I believed your friend did read them to you from the ALPA-S contract but you had a different interpretations..because in no way he would have quoted that the tax rate was at 10% and the MVC was an addition to your basic.

[etops777]

A380 jockey

By the way..only SQ Cargo have an expats contract. The amount of housing and school fees is in their recruiting website. The other airlines within the SIA group, SQ, MI and Scoot does not have an expats package and all is on a local term.

Highlighting this was only to make a correct assessment or comparison for all of us more valid..

[Left Coaster]

Aiyo...careful what you wish for lah...only allowed to work until 62, and then SQC MIGHT take you but at 1st year pay...and possibly on a local contract, it seems to be one way for locals and another for expats, and SQ reserves the right to limit your extention to one contract term only...many guys had to leave when they were tossed aside...how many ended up at QR? 70 odd guys is the number tossed around. Not such a great shade of green on the other side of that fence...and as for staff travel? You EK people have a picnic compared to SQ...:rolleyes:

[etops777]

A380 jockey

Let's take a calculation based on about the 10th year capt.

Base 13500
MVC. 1350

Basic 15000.

80 hours at 75= 6000
80-85 at 125 = 625

13th month at 15000/12 = 1250

Total 22875 + outstation allowances..

So the the Capt with about 10 years on the left seat is about 68625aed plus outstation allowances minus taxes therefore it is not the 90k aed you've quoted, also the outstation allowances won't be as much as what you've mentioned.

A capt with a 10 years of seniority is about 60700 plus outstation allowances with EK if you opted for the housing allowance..

Now it is only around 8000 aed of differences..if you calculate the taxes you pay, the housing and the school fees, EK would have a bit more spending power. EK provides a provident funds while SQ pays the 13th month basic..so it has many wash out between the 2 airlines. It all comes down to where you want to live and work and where the family will be happy.

SQ mainline won't be hiring Capts for many years to come. It has enough FOs to upgrade within. The only hiring is on the Cargo side which is on a different CA to that of the mainline. When you do join, you will be placed in the year 1 basic which is 10000sgd plus MVC of 1000..

It's not that much different..it's about where you will be happy.

[etops777]

A380 jockey

How can you factored in housing and education allowances when yoou don't get that in the SQ mainline? The SQ Cargo guys does have a 3900 sgd of housing and 1500 per kids in school fees, and this school fees applies during school year(not paid during summer holiday).

The 10 year EK is simple. 40650 in basic, plus 60 per hour doing 75 hours per month(900 year) 4500, plus housing of 14950 is 60700aed then to add 200 for phoone allowance plus exchange rate protection depending on your currency from 0 to 3000 aed per month plus overrnight allowance so 62000-63000aed is a realistic figure. I am sure any of the EK pilots here can confirm my numbers for EK.

For your friend to pick up 4500 sgd in allowance that means he is with cargo. SQ mainline is also on a 3 meals allowance like EK while SQ Cargo is at 8sgd per hour. So his 4500 equals about 562 hours away from base. They fly about 50-55 hours per month.

I just hope the info here can be as accurate as possible for a valid comparison.

[etops777]

A380jockey

I am very certain my numbers are correct. :ok:

When you were comparing the most senior EK Capts, did you also included the housing allowances if he choose to take? School fees? Bear in mind it is 3 kids in EK not 2. And did you added the provident funds to the calculation? Because you need to. Why? Is to make the comparison valid:ugh:

By the way, it won't be my loss:=

We can put this to rest. Can't blame you for not knowing the numbers and it's no use having a debate here..

Adios

[King on a Wing]

A380's numbers are spot on...!!
Couldnt be closer to actuals.
Koaw

[cerbus]

Instead of talking about everybody's else pay what about the pay at EK. 3% does not even come close to the inflation rate in Dubai. We need more that is for sure.

[BYMONEK]

Cerbus

We haven't had a pay rise. The 3% is an increment which we should receive automatically every year to reflect seniority. So, this year we've basically got nothing. That's pretty disgraceful for an Airline that's just cleared well over 600 million US$

[Seat99k]

That is true, but what can be done about it other than the standard answer of voting with ones feet

[King on a Wing]

@ Eric Carr,
I would NEVER have thought that SQ lost even one pilot to EK. This is news to me. Unless it is an expat looking for permanency. But even then...

[General Dogsbody]

More then one has moved to the desert and they were not expats.. in SQ anyway

[Wizofoz]

Indeed.

One of the few (so far) direct entrents onto the A380 was from SQ, and already rated.

[White Knight]

TOGA

Thought we were talking 'EK pay review' primarily... :D

[Alconguin Crusader]

Have you seen the new Delta pay rates proposed by the company? Puts EK to shame.
B-777 12 yr captain would make almost $270 an hour! Yes you read that right. Plus you know it will go higher because that is what the company is proposing. The Delta boys will undoubtedly ask and get more money having something to do with Big Balls but most Emirates pilots probably would not understand that concept.
You can bet your bottom dollar that they won't have to fly 95 hours a month either.
This is the beginning of the so called pilot shortage. If we as pilots can stick to our guns we can demand what we are deserved. Let's stick it to them.

[GMC1500]

I've actually flown with an ex singapore airlines pilot who is FROM singapore, so now he's an expat but there he wasn't.

[Visual Procedures]

AC, be careful what you wish for. :=

$270 an hour? For a 12 year 777 Captain? I hope EK don't stoop that low.

900 hours per year = $243,000 less $64,718 tax = $178,282 (from the US gov tax site)

$178,282 per year = 54,525 Dhs per month.

It has been well pointed out in this thread that a 12 year captain here on 900 hours will earn significantly more.

If $270 an hour is not the end of the remuneration story then feel free to fix my numbers. I'm not suggesting I wouldn't have liked a pay rise, I am just sick of hearing sensationalist bull$hit about how fantastic everyone else is being paid.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Let's see what the Boys sign for Visual.
Don't forget the Boys that carry theirs' around in wheel barrows only fly about 800 hours a year and work 8-12 days a month MAX. Their quality of life is leaps and bounds better than ours. I know I have worked at both places.
While we work 15-18 days, don't get credit for the bunk (some of us go well over 900 hours a year), through the night etc etc they enjoy their jobs.
They also have in their contracts concepts practically no one at EK has even heard of much less experienced. Green Slips, Trip Credit, Duty Regs, Min Day and on and on. That means they can work less and boost their hourly rate, something that is sorely lacking here in the sand.
I know we will never achieve that here mainly because pilots here think EK is a good job and won't push for what is theirs.
Oh yeah before you Kool-Aid drinkers start Delta made over $450 million last year.

[etops777]

Ac...bear in mind that most of the 777 Capts in US have at least 25-30 years of seniority..so you can't compare a 30 years capt with DL to a 12 year Capt with EK.

[White Knight]

They also have in their contracts concepts practically no one at EK has even heard of much less experienced. Green Slips, Trip Credit, Duty Regs, Min Day and on and on. That means they can work less and boost their hourly rate, something that is sorely lacking here in the sand.
I know we will never achieve that here mainly because pilots here think EK is a good job and won't push for what is theirs.

Comparing apples with pears... And if Delta is so marvellous why are you still here? Oh yeah, you'll need to do 20 years there just to get a 737 command:{:{

Have you not learnt that 'pushing for what is ours' in the Middle East is not quite the same as back Stateside? You need to pick your battles here! Simple as that. Some we win, some we lose, but the company is not going to give us a pay-rise because you think it should!

I don't see many picket lines in EGHQ:rolleyes:

PS. What is a 'green slip'? Must be some yankee thing:ok:

[BYMONEK]

Kinda makes ya'all wonder why so many Delta boys came to the sandpit if life was so good. And what was your glorious background AC?

As for big balls, don't suppose you've had the time to write to JA or AS with your grievance yet? Or are you just too busy slogging through those 900 hours. Wonder why you put up with it really! :rolleyes:

[Dropp the Pilot]

No wonder there are underpaid Delta refugees at Emirates. I typed my gross from my EK payslip into a US tax calculator which informs me I will need to make $442,000 annually in the US to come out even. When I find the Delta man making that amount and we compare our slips I will ask him:

-what he pays for life insurance
-what he pays for medical insurance
-what he pays for loss of license insurance
-what model of car he is driven to work in
-what his annual bill is for the private education of his children

[Alconguin Crusader]

Green Slip is when you pick up a trip on your days off or when the company is desperate you get double time, 2X. So the boys with big balls will be getting almost $540 an hour although that is not an everyday occurance.
Keep slogging off the Yanks White Knighty. You wish you had 1/2 their contract. This just goes to show you how ignorant Ek pilots are. How do we ever have a chance of getting what is ours when pilots don't even know what they are missing much less what to fight for?
As I have said many times leaving a major US airline is the biggest mistake I ever made and yes I wish I could rectify it. There is just not that many DL pilots in the sand and ask the ones that are still here and most will tell you they wish they could back for sure.
What "Glorious" airline did you work for bymonkey? It couldn't have been that great if you think EK is a good airline. Are you one of those EK pilots that could take a 30% pay cut here and still be better off than your previous airline. With post like yours you have already answered my question.

[falcon10]

Tax calculators do not account for many of the deductions a typical pilot can make. My effective tax rate last year was 5.57% after deductions!

[Alconguin Crusader]

My mine was 11.3%.
And I paid far less for cars, food, education, staff travel etc etc than I do in Dubai

[Wizofoz]

... Well I believe the US regionals are hiring, AC.

[White Knight]

And I paid far less for cars, food, education, staff travel etc etc than I do in Dubai

But I didn't - then again I'm not from the US! UK is very, very expensive. Mind you, I did having a ruddy big salary there:} Sadly the taxman saw fit to relieve me of 18,000 GBP the last year I was there! Just on earnings:{:{

Like I said - apples and pears. And we all make the choice to sign on the dotted line; hopefully having done our homework first, although I fear many didn't:ugh::ugh:

[BYMONEK]

ac

I worked for a good UK charter in the left seat. The Airline has been the longest and most established independent airline to survive under it's original name and is over 40 years old with an unblemished safety record. I left because of a lack of roster stability, numerous night turn rounds and future prospects.

I joined EK as an F/O and took home what I was taking home after deductions in the UK. 9 years later I have no regrets other than not coming here earlier. My quality of life, despite working an average of 150 hours more per year is greater than before. My financial situation and what I can offer my family is superior than I would have achieved had I stayed in the UK. F class travel, variation of holiday destinations and private education are just three perks that were not acheivable previously.

I've been civil enough to answer your question, let's see how big your balls are by answering mine.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Proves my point excactly. You made as much as an FO here as you did as a captain for that "airline" back home. Translate that to my friends at DL that are international FOs and they make almost as much as I do as a captain. Yeah that is same. 30% pay cut and you will still be happy here.
As I said before we will never get what is ours when "pilots" like you think we are making good money. Them compound the days we work with the conditions we work under and we are a long way from Industry Standard but you are happy though.

[Wizofoz]

AC,

So, what are you going to do about it? Strike? Leave?

You are here pouring contempt on your colleagues while not appearing willing to do anything different than what they are, except moan about the position you put yourself in.

BYMONKEY pointed out why he moved here, to improve his life, and I did likewise. Are you saying we should have stayed in worse paying jobs?

If being here is NOT the best option for you, why are you here? (And please note I asked you the same question around three years ago- and the answer was "I won't be for long").

I also note you're a Captain these days- Would you be if you hadn't come here, and what would you be earning?

[GoreTex]

AC if you are here less than 10 years zip it, if you are here less than 8 shut up cos everybody knew then how EK treats its staff and that conditions are in decline, if you are here less than 6, I rest my case then you are just an idiot

[Alconguin Crusader]

I would expect nothing less from the Emirates pilots and the posts do not surprise me in the slightest.

[Bunktime]

GMC1500. WRT your post #53. This pilot from sq, who joined ek. Are we talking fo or capt. Just that you jingled my curiosity. Me with a whole bunch of friends in the far east.

[Wizofoz]

AC,

But aren't you ONE of the Emirates pilots?

[White Knight]

I'm wondering if AC was the young foul-mouthed American F/O I flew with about 3 years ago. Guy had a gob and an attitude that was vile! He was told to can it...

Apologies AC if I've mistaken you from someone else! But he was from Michigan too:cool:

[givemewings]

Definitely at least one ex-SQ on A380. When I flew with him he was F/O, but I don't know if he was one in SQ as well, if that's what you're asking? He didn't seem 'old enough' to be a capt in SQ but maybe he just looks young for his age... not, of course, that there is any specific age for a captain... :}

[fatbus]

WK , was he a "Check Airman", there seems to be a few of those around. Also, AC just go back to DL 777 Capt ,or was that an RJ

[Seat99k]

What about setting up a pilot council perhaps through Epc? At least we would then be able to talk with one voice rather than just moaning. It's in all our interest for the company to do well so maybe we could contribute it doesn't have to be a negative thing for ek. Even If they don't listen it would give us a platform.

[White Knight]

What about setting up a pilot council perhaps through Epc? At least we would then be able to talk with one voice rather than just moaning. It's in all our interest for the company to do well so maybe we could contribute it doesn't have to be a negative thing for ek. Even If they don't listen it would give us a platform.

First flight home for you! Last few guys that tried to set something up (what? Nine or tenyears ago) where just about given their marching orders!

Don't even tar EPC with such a brush - the guys had enough difficulty setting it up originally; having to persuade 'management' that it was not in fact a u****.

[etops777]

Bunk time

Both were FOs on the A380 with SQ and DEFo onto EK A380.

[Eric Carr]

@King on a Wing,
I've heard at least two guys that came from the 380. And both are supposedly nationals, at least the one I met.

As for SQ mainline expats didn't they all get fired a while back and the only expats left are the ones on the cargo fleet. If not so sureley they won't be hireing any DEC expats any time soon to the mainline:confused:

@AC, even if Delta/Northwest would start hireng long haual DECs there's only about 300(US citizens) at EK who would be eligible to apply. That's why I try to compare with jobs I have a realistic chance of getting. SQ cargo might be one of them. EY, QR, KE, FR, TK and a bunch of F/O jobs in Eouro-zone. In that comparison EK's contract, for one like me with two children is one of the best...

[cerbus]

The US does not hire Scabs, I mean DECs and for good reason. Have you seen a good airline that does not respect senority?

[BYMONEK]

wet vee two

No, not at all. I just can't comprehend why people have such an obvious axe to grind against the Company yet still remain here. ac is a classic example. In fact, I too know exactly who he is having had the displeasure of sharing a car into work some time ago. He stood out for all the wrong reasons. 20 minutes of constant whinging and moaning from start to finish and several times a referral to all EK pilots as 'pussies'. Thank god I wasn't flying with him that day or else I would have off loaded myself.

ac

The fact that you consider yourself as an entirely separate entity from your EK colleagues merely confirms what a sad and bitter individual you are. Whilst you knock the majority pilot group for working here and being generally content, the irony is completely lost on you that you continue to endure such 'oppressive conditions' despite the ability to leave at your free will.

And no, I would not 'still be happy' if I received 30% less pay. If the pay had been that much less, I would not have come in the first place. For the record, my overall remuneration package is still greater than my peers at my previous airline although, unlike you, money is not my sole motivator.

Whilst we can choose to ignore your posts on these forums, the poor F/O's who have to endure your constant bitching in the cockpit can't. I pity them, almost as much as I pity you.

[TangoUniform]

Not to defend AC, but what he could be trying to say is, that the ENTIRE pay package and benefits fall way short of some of the legacy and other major airlines out there. To say that the EK is one of the top pilot packages in the world is off the mark. And AC will probably say that it was a huge mistake to leave DL/NWA when he did. Even with a full captain's monthly pay (say 12 yrs) and a full utilities allowance....it still falls short of being a leader in our industry. EK has made some of the top profits in the last few years in comparison, yet the package lags (including flying anywhere from 85-90 hrs/mo) with all leave not alocated and sick leave returned in ADs. Oh well.

Now what choice do we have? None, plain and simple. To call the EK pilots p*****s, is way off the mark.:= What do you propose we do AC? It is a love or leave it situation we are all in. If we had a crystal ball, many would never have left from where we came. But we don't so we are here, and all we can do is grin and bear it. But please gents, don't think this is one of the better deals around. The problem is, for many of us, it is the best deal available because of senority, etc.

And finally, being from a European country just 5-8 hours away changes the game in comparison to those from N/S America and the Pacific islands. So it really is a perspective type of deal. A pilot from Zim., is going to have a different perspective of EK than if one is from the US. It really is apples and oranges.

So from my perspective, AC you're wrong in calling the EK pilots spineless and p*****s and I think you other guys are wrong in the love or leave it mentality and saying we have an industry leading deal. I'm the only one who is correct, in my perspective:E of course.

[Wizofoz]

TU,

I don't actually see anyone here arguing that EK is a world leading gig. It has some huge advantages for a lot of us, and is better than is available in most of the world at the moment.

ACs idea that the reason we don't earn the same as a US lgacy major pilot is because we're spinless

Does he think US REGIONAL pilots are spinless whimps, when they work harder than us for a fraction of our pay?

[alwayzinit]

US Legacy vs EK.
Just done upgrade training with some 30 something lads who have the potential of 20+ yrs in the left seat in EK, no direct taxation(yet!), free housing(if you want) etc etc.

Yes without doubt the headline salary figure for Legacy(read cp11 etc!) is higher but by the time a pilot achieves the Legacy mega bucks he will only have maybe 7 years on it maybe. minus tax , housing etc etc

So you take the money, you make your choice.

One thing is certain though, if you spend your life with anger and vitriol in your soul it will kill you early.

Keep it safe guys.

[White Knight]

One thing is certain though, if you spend your life with anger and vitriol in your soul it will kill you early.

Keep it safe guys.


That is the truest thing written in this thread so far:ok:

[Alconguin Crusader]

Thanks for the thoughtful words TU. After staying up all night reflecting on another Red-Eye flight maybe the term of the female's atatomy describing the Emirates pilot group was harse or over the top. There is a preponerance of pilots that think Ek is a good deal and I in a frustrating way try to enlighten the Kool-Aid drinkers that there is a whole another world out there. Maybe my methods were not PC but I hope the message got through.
Wiz is a piece of work. I don't know why he keeps refering to the Regionals in the US. Maybe that is his skill set baseline or he is use to that kind of salary but there are just as many airlines in OZ similar to the US regionals however there are plenty more airlines in the US that pay far more than Wizo is use to. And yes the US regionals need to raise their game and demmands before that becomes the New Norm.
I fully realize that some of the pilots are stuck at Ek through either career decisions or false assumptions, I being the latter. But to defend a mediocre airline just because you have had nothing better or can't go anywhere is not in your profession's best interest. Who among us would not want $270 an hour plus the perks? I sincerely hope I can count on one hand how many EK pilots would not want to make that kind of coin. I try to make plain what the EK pilots are missing with terminology and contract itmes when compared to other international, wide body, legacy pilot's contracts.
Although I have been into TCAS' office more than the average EK pilot has ventured I am not optimistic about our chances of getting anything like a DL contract hence part of my frustration. Compound that with the usual suspects at Ek drinking the company Kool-Aid and not wanting to rock the boat and we will never get close to Industry Standard.

[fliion]

AC,

With such a strong post ...we are all looking fwd to wishing you well @ your new gig at Delta...and good luck on the 777 upgrade in 2035...

The only way I am drinking your "kool- aid" and paying homage to the DAL pilots testiculos...

Is when they get the following..

...777 upgrade at 4 yr seniority

... 1st $100k tax free

...silver Chauffeur sedan to and from Atlanta airport from my house

... $50,000 per year to pay my mortgage

...a smile from the FG 1 more than once a decade

...cash per diem, envelope local currency on check in at hotel.

... Virtually free healthcare

How long have you been here? Lets say 4ish years...

YOU!(not us kool-aid drinkers) Signed a contract for 3% For three yrs

And in the last four yrs YOU have had a pay raise of 29% and bonuses of 29 weeks since May of 2008 which was not in YOUR contract (12% of pay raise was if we use 3% per year).

So grab your wheelbarrow, the one used by your Delta buddies, stick your nuts in it and enjoy the 1st class seat back...after all Nything less just wouldn't be ballsy ...now would it.

f.

[Craggenmore]

AC,

What would a year 1 FO at Delta make compared to a year 1 FO at EK if they both signed up today..?

Forget for a minute what a 30yr Delta 777 skipper makes. The world was a different place back then.

You can factor in the benefits that EK FO's get that the Delta FO's do not get, as per fliions' post, if you like.

Can someone also point me in the right direction of these great deals to be had..? because I just rang up Lufty and asked if I could join on their 380 fleet at year 20 seniority and they told me to kcuf off..!

[Oblaaspop]

Actually AC, I wouldn't get out of bed for the 'massive' $270 per hour you mention buddy!!

Just had a look at my yearly pay on HR Direct and NOT taking into account the bonus last year I earned a shade under 800K dhs with the accommodation allowance.

I have flown around 650 hours in the last year and assuming say 20% back tax, my hourly pay is equivalent just over $400 per hour:hmm:

I believe we had this conversation a year or so ago and I shall point out the same thing, I understand that there will be some sort of retainer or minimum earning hours built into their contracts, but what if your Delta buddy broke his leg and couldn't fly for a few months? Or worse still was off long term sick.... would Delta still be paying him full salary for up to 1 year? Thought not!

Don't get me wrong, things aren't perfect here and there are better packages out there (Delta ain't one of them though!!!), but it isn't as bad as you believe it is.

I also realise that you may have been 'duped' into joining EK by a former American manager and feel let down, but please for the sake of your sanity just look at it with a positive slant for a change:ok:

[Jetaim]

Quality of life in Dubai just sucks and there is no money that can compensate for that, It is a non life.

[kingpost]

Why the comparisons to other airlines, Who cares - we live in Dubai and the cost of living here is huge!

What about meeting the cost of inflation, school fees and medical costs? These are our issues, not if you're earning more or less than someone working else where!

School fees this year are going to hurt all!

[etops777]

King post

What's the school fees like this year?

[8sugarsugar]

Dubai does suck... just ask our ex-wives why they left us...we took a big sacrifice to move to **** hole desert and get shafted by EK.

All we want is our productivity pay back...

[TangoUniform]

Simple question for you gents that don't quite get what AC is trying to convey, in his, let's say, less than gentlemanly way.

How many of you will be able to say you will stay here until you reach 65 doing on average 700 (and remember, ULR hours are reduced) hours a year, not being able to return "home" with your off days being limited and being restricted to make decent changes to one's roster? At most legacies, one's work rules, rosters etc get very easy as the autumn of the career approaches. Here it doesn't matter if you fly your hours in 15 days, you are not going to be able to do much with ADs inserted here and there.

A four year upgrade to any wide body aircraft is incredible. To be a 777/330 captain at the age of, say, 32 is off the charts. Would never happen at the legacies, anywhere. But no matter what changes have been made in the last four years with regard to flt ops firings, there is always that overhanging threat of a mistake being made and you will packing up in 48 hours.

For me, this place works. I have made incredible friends from parts of the world I would never have had the opportunity anywhere else. The company is basically run by others that are expats, and from what I have gathered there is little or no anomosity towards expats. Not the case at other "good deal" airlines. And the commercial division seems to have no equal. That said, we work in a very high stress flight operations that does and will take its toll.

Finally, it is bad form to criticise those who find EK a great place to work. There are reasons for their adoration, so AC, let them have their good feelings. It really doesn't matter, at EVERY airline there are 20% who would donate their first born to the company and 20% who would be willing to burn it down to prove a point (ie, Eastern). But in defence of AC, he in his way is perhaps just trying to point out some warts and blemishes. No doubt in the near future if he has the time (age) he will depart for again Delta, or Alaska or UPS or FedEx and just eat the senority dog for a better life style.

[Wizofoz]

we will never get close to Industry Standard.

AC,

Much as you won't hear it, particularly bfrom me, this is the crux of your problem.

Why do you assume that what is earned by a tiny majority of Pilots globally, in a legacy, Union contriolled environment, is the "Industry Standard?"

Who among us would not want $270 an hour plus the perks?

I used to earn something very like that in real terms- until the Airline I worked for went broke. Does the idea of wanting the Company you work for to be sucessful and stay in busness occur to you, or is short-term, in the pocket right noe gains all you are willing to use for comparison?

however there are plenty more airlines in the US that pay far more than Wizo is use to.

Then, as you are allowed to work for them, while I am not, why aren't you?

[Swan Man]

What sucks more, Emirates or Dubai? They both have their obstacles but if I don't like it I should just leave.
Thanks for the advice. I will consider it with the source it came.

[fliion]

TC

Nice post...BUT this discussion was never about the merits of EK per se...it was about comparing us to DELTA and the issue of cojones.

3 things that irritate me about EK (and no doubt everyone else that took offense to ACs post) ...,.the productivity adjustment during GFC, the checking culture & the treatment of the Airbus crews (rosters & upgrade shenanigans).

They are what they are, we all know coming here that we are vulnerable to a lack of control.

But this business of Delta @ $270 an hr ....as if anyone could get to the LHS there within 20 yrs ... and our lack of 'courage'?..in order to survive here you need to be smart not courageous.

AC's ideas on that.... What a load of bollix

f.

[fliion]

Ladies & Gents

I just received a pvt email from our esteemed AC hurling emotional maniacal insults...and talking about all of us Ameriacns that flew Furlough Jets.(what's that?)...yawn.

I post for the fun of the joust rather than anything else....and you know when you get one of those mad pvt insulting MSG ' s ...you' ve really hit the bullseye ...

Love it....; >

f

[Abbey Road]

Gee, Ladies, you are giving everyone outside Emirates the very clear idea that you are a great big bunch of whining jessies! 'I want this' and 'we want that'! Get a grip, girls! You have jobs, and if inflation in Dubai rises faster than your income, pull your belt in!

You are nowhere near destitute, which is what you would try have everyone believe. If the rest of the aviation world is doing so much better than big-girls-blouse-central in Dubai, then put your money where your mouth is and leave.

How odd, I don't hear a stamped out of Dubai. Pathetic whingers. :rolleyes:

[Bunktime]

Oblaspop,
Could you kindly enlighten me as to what this '20% back tax' is. Thanks. Is this something that you give to the government...?!

[Saltaire]

Like it or not we know the industry has been in a slow decline for years. The American carriers have been among the worst hit in the global decimation of pilots contracts. Doesn't United still have guys on furlough going back over 10 years? Unbelievable. I don't know about Delta, but it can't be good.

I don't drink any kool aid and despise some of the rostering practices, lack of management support, draconian contract changes, etc, but you have to appreciate what this place is - an opportunity for stability, to keep your career on track and provide for your family.

I have seen some of these young guys recently on their command course with very limited experience, some with little or no command, no previous wide body and EK really being their first real major airline. They might bitch and complain but behind the scenes in the dark of night they know they are lucky as hell. For those younger guys with limited experience, EK would have never
hired them years ago. They have needed massive numbers for expansion and
have kept dropping the hours and experience levels. I have to agree with
Tango uniform and fliion- command in your mid 30's with a regional
background? Ya right. Shut it, and thank your lucky stars kid. I love to hear
these guys complain and then politely start asking about their previous
experience. They back off about as fast as a dubai horn on a green light...

Compare all you like AC, and you might be right in some cases, but be careful
out there or you might be lucky enough to wind up back as a DEC in EK like
the guys coming back recently from greener pastures. :O

[Alconguin Crusader]

Agreed Saltaire, there is without a doubt worse places to be.
Can you at least give me that there are better places to be as well?
On the 1-10 scale of world airlines Emirates is probably a 7 or 8. Your mileage will vary.

[Craggenmore]

Can you at least give me that there are better places to be as well?


Name them..!

[heavy.airbourne]

Name them..!

How about HNL?

[555orange]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
However I say anyone is better off in their own home country building their castle slowly... Instead of trying to take a short cut in the dusty hot place working like a madman for madmen.

[fatbus]

I'm with 555 on this one, been here 11+ years and it has not improved over that time, but the entire industry has gone downhill as well. EK is not bad, thats it. Dubai is boring and it wears you down.
I'm just waiting /in the process ( applying ) to get out of here. The grass is not always greener but at least its green.

[cerbus]

Really Craggenmore? Do you really think EK is the best airline in the world? When you include everything and I mean everything Emirates is below numerous other airlines.
When you make statements like you did it makes me wonder if all the flying we are doing in the middle of the night is really getting to you or you never have had a clue to begin with.

[CR9]

Look guys, the fact of the matter is EK is a pretty good place to weather out the economic storm but really nothing more. While most of you have a point anyone that doesn't see Emirates for what it is, is either blind or in denial. Unfortunately EK has become nothing more than a low cost with wide bodies. We have zero work rules, unreliable rosters-meaning our hours and days off are completly at the companies whim, health insurance while good to some of you is really quite crap and full of holes by my standards, no pay for block time (all that circling at desdi is free), I won't go on but we are all painfully aware of the issues. Anyone arguing that EK is the best airline or even compares to US or EU legacys has got a serious case of heat stroke. Most of us I think would like to at least entertain the idea of being able to stay here for a while but I'm afraid with our current conditions it would be a death sentence, literally. For those that don't believe me, take a look at an old study that was done by ALPA (I believe) in the States about FedEx pilots. Back in the 80's/early 90's they were doing flying similar to ours, ie 85+hrs a month with 70% at night, anyway the study found that a large majority were dead within 5years of retirement. I wish that fate upon no one soo good luck to you all amigo's

[Craggenmore]

cerbus.

If that's your view then we seem to be having completely different experiences at EK.

You shouldn't belabor me for being happy..!

:ok:

[cerbus]

I am not belaboring you for being happy. What I am belaboring you on that this (EK) is the best airline in the world to fly for. Now you might not have the chance to work at Air France, BA etc because of passport or qualification issues but when you include everything into the package Emirates is far from the top.
Keep on being happy.

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

Don't these airlines have a seniority system and therefore you'd have to start from the bottom if you were to join? Just wondering...

[BYMONEK]

Interesting statistics

.......85+hrs a month with 70% at night, anyway the study found that a large majority were dead within 5 years of retirement.

With the current economic climate and the state of my Provident fund, 5 years should just about cover me! :uhoh:

[pilotday]

what a life, spend your entire life in **** hole Dubai, retire at age 65, die at 70 wishing you had spent more of that time with your family in home country..

...at least your widow can spend your provident fund on her new boyfriend's boat.

[Swan Man]

Can your Provident Fund buy a boat? Mine can't.

[LearBus]

"Can your Provident Fund buy a boat?"

Sure...a used 19' Bayliner :p

[Oceanic]

You guys are depressing me.:*

[navstar1]

Gentlemen.Whilst not wishing to comment concerning your terms and conditions as a recent passenger I travelled UK Dubai Hong Kong Singapore Dubai London on both the A380 and the B777. Excellent service on all sectors so in my opinion you have a product that is up with the best. Thank you for a safe and enjoyable experience and I am in the aviation industry!!:ok: