CAP 804 released no mention of class 2 FI

[chester2005]

Hi guys

Having looked through CAP 804 i fail to find anything in black and white stating that an CPL FI with a class 1 OML (so PPL with class 2) can instruct and be paid, until after solo XC
There only seems to be a matrix that disallows class 1 OML from ab initio etc.
It would imply that having a class 1 OML stops you from ab initio instruction and does not state class 2 instruction is allowed remunerated or otherwise.

any ideas

Chester:ok::ok:

[Whopity]

You are looking at the wrong document. Try:
Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 of 3 November 2011FCL.205.A PPL(A) — Privileges
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot on aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations.
(b) Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(A) with instructor or examiner privileges may receive remuneration for:
(1) the provision of flight instruction for the LAPL(A) or PPL(A);
(2) the conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences;
(3) the ratings and certificates attached to these licences.EN L 311/22 Official Journal of the European Union 25.11.2011

[chester2005]

Received and understood
however what about Rotary Wing?

according to the matrix a class 1 OML can not instruct towards a different type rating but use to be able to instruct the same student unremunerated

i shall check out in greater depth the document you mention

Chester:ok:

[BEagle]

1. CAP 804 matrix explains what you may or may not do with a medical limitation and represent mandatory requirements, policy and guidance.

2. The privileges of a PPL(H) are:

FCL.205.H PPL(H) — Privileges

(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(H) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot of helicopters engaged in non-commercial operations.

(b) Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(H) with instructor or examiner privileges may receive remuneration for:

(1) the provision of flight instruction for the LAPL(H) or the PPL(H);

(2) the conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences;

(3) the ratings and certificates attached to these licences.

[MrAverage]

Whopity?

Would you know if getting paid on a Class II is already possible or do we have to wait til July?

Also, is a Part FCL licence needed to take this advantage?

Cheers.

[Whopity]

It is legal from the 8th April. If you hold a JAA licence, it is deemed to be an EASA licence from that date. If you have a UK licence, it is still subject to the UK ANO.

[MrAverage]

Thanks for that. Saves me £200 per year.......

[ifitaintboeing]

It is legal from the 8th April. If you hold a JAA licence, it is deemed to be an EASA licence from that date. If you have a UK licence, it is still subject to the UK ANO.


...and the UK issued an exemption to the ANO to allow equivalent privileges on non-JAR-FCL licences.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_896.pdf

[chester2005]

still no mention of PPL(H) though from what i can see

Chester:ok:

[Whopity]

Exactly the same as for Aeroplanes:FCL.205.H PPL(H) — Privileges
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(H) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot of helicopters engaged in non-commercial operations.
(b) Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(H) with instructor or examiner privileges may receive remuneration for:
(1) the provision of flight instruction for the LAPL(H) or the PPL(H);
(2) the conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences;
(3) the ratings and certificates attached to these licences.

[chester2005]

Whopity
Yes i can see that but there is still nothing that i can find from the CAA ie. ORS publications. for PPL(H) only PPL(A)
The other point is that the licence may allow you to get paid but it doesn't stipulate what medical is required to accompany said licence in order to receive remuneration.
The CAA used to adopt the attitude that you can instruct on a PPL but if you wanted to be paid you had to have a class 1 medical, i have yet to find anything in black and white that overturns this.

Chester :ok:

[Whopity]

There doesn't need to be anything from the CAA, its EU Law which overrides anything they may say; all they can do is confirm it. All you need for a PPL is a Class 2 Medical; the old days of the CAA stipulating different medicals for different purposes ceased over 12 years ago with JAR-FCL!Requirements for medical certificates
MED.A.030 Medical certificates

(c) Applicants for and holders of a private pilot licence (PPL), a sailplane pilot licence (SPL), or a balloon pilot licence (BPL) shall hold at least a Class 2 medical certificate.

[chester2005]

i am still trying to get definitive answers for this and so far all i can find is contradictions between the quotes above and Cap804/lasors

CAP804 section 4 part N page 14/15 shows a table for flight instruction allowable with a class 1 OML

it looks like it is a straight copy from LASORS section A appendix G tables 3/4

nowhere does it mention the ability to drop down to class 2 medical status for abinitio instruction or type rating training.
One could almost take the implication that once you have a Class 1 OML you are carrying a stigma that prevents you from doing things that an oblivious Class 2 holder can do quite happily.
i am aware that CAP 804 is a collection of mandatory requirements policy and guidelines so does anyone know if these table are mandatory or guidance?

Also if a CPL holder wants an additional type rating there are rules that state one must have at least an equivalent licence to be able to instruct, but to validate a CPL one must have a Class 1 medical:ugh::ugh::ugh:
a scenario.......
a PPL FI(H) with class 2 can instruct abinitio on an R22 and then a Type rating on an R44 to a PPL holder
a CPL FI(H) with class 1 OML can drop down to the above, no problems

a CPL comes along and want to do an R44 rating, can the CPL FI(H) Class 1 OML do the training?????
NOT according to Lasors or CAP 804

Chester:ok:

[Whopity]

i am still trying to get definitive answers for this and so far all i can find is contradictions between the quotes above and Cap804/lasorsIt is EU Law, EU Regulation 1178/2011 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:311:0001:0193:EN:PDF) came into force on 8th April 2014Article 12
Entry into force and application
1. This Regulation shall enter into force on the 20th day following its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.
It shall apply from 8 April 2012. (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2330/Webrevisedv%20May12_17%20Sept_EASA_quickguide__v2.pdf) The Key dates on the CAA website will tell you that. Then look at the licence privileges FCL 205 A and H in the legislation. That's as definitive as it gets.

The other point is that the licence may allow you to get paid but it doesn't stipulate what medical is requiredTry hereRequirements for medical certificates
MED.A.030 Medical certificates

(c) Applicants for and holders of a private pilot licence (PPL), a sailplane pilot licence (SPL), or a balloon pilot licence (BPL) shall hold at least a Class 2 medical certificate.

This book will give you the answers and it states the law. Neither CAP804 nor LASORS are law!