Jet Provost

[clunk1001]

Hi,

Anyone in, been in, heard of, Newcastle Jet Provost Group ?

Newcastle Jet Provost - JP - Jet Heritage - Classic British Jet. (http://www.newcastlejetprovost.net/#!shares)

I'd be interested if anyone's had experience of the group.

The cost of ownership/hourly rate seems very low to me.

Cheers.

[clunk1001]

Well its looks around 350 p/hour + landings, about the same as a PA34, but this looks more fun than a PA34.

Interested in honest opinions of people, a/c availability etc, and any hidden costs.

Cheers

[Unusual Attitude]

I'll give you my experience of being in the group for 2 years and I wont sugar coat it......

Firstly, someone is telling you porkies on the fuel cost, JP3 burns about 500-600 litres an hour at probably about 90p per litre in todays money for JetA1. When I was flying it 5 or 6 years ago the fuel price was about 40-50p per litre and I was usually £350-£400 an hour inc landing fees which were about £50 per landing at Newcastle, probably more by now.
Doing circuits at Carlisle was a bit better but it was something like 3 or 4 landings for £100. At todays fuel prices an hour of circuits (low level + lots of drag = lots of fuel burn) will probably stand you £700+ inc landings depending on how many you do.

Some other things I would add about the group.....

- Constantly moving goalposts with regards hour requirements for being allowed to carry pax, make sure you get this confirmed in a written agreement first so it cant be changed.
- Slim to zero chance of getting your £1k back and legal threats to get you to keep paying your monthly fees even after you have 'donated' your share back to the group, as per the agreement.
- Extremely limited availablity of the aircraft during summer weekends as it does the airshow season.
- Flying cost includes NO maintenance cost or engine fund, if something breaks you all chip in, thats from the moment you join whether you've flown it or not.
- All maintenance costs being split equally regardless of hours flown, tends to suit one member in particular who does more flying than the rest of the group put together.
- Group financial structure that relies on a continual flow of members leaving and 'donating' their £1000 share back to the group.

I've no axe to grind and had fun flying 'blunty' during my time in the group but make sure you do your own research on the costs, the group accounts, the number of members in the group and the throughput of members over the last few years. A happy / stable group generally has a very small turnover of members, a high throughput is a sign that not all is well.

As for flying it, its not a difficult thing to fly at all and not that demanding, a few more systems to consider than your average spam-can but its fun enough if you can handle the fuel costs! Typical speeds are about 180kts econ cruise, 220kts if your not so fussed burning fuel and max chat S&L on the deck is about 270kts.

Regards

UA

[clunk1001]

Thanks for that info UA.

£700 sounds a bit more realistic in terms of fuel. And as long as its twice as muchfun as a PA34 then that math works out ok :p

Sounds like the cost of maintenance is a bit risky for new members who mayhave to contribute to a massive bill for an aircraft they haven't flown yet,and won't fly all that often.

Cheers,

[Unusual Attitude]

I'd say its fun but not 'thrilling', tis quite a big docile machine with a decent roll rate but doesnt have a lot of spare power, the JP4/5 are far more lively machines.

Personally I get far more of a thril out of my Cassutt for about 1/10th of the cost of the JP!

For example on Sat the circuit was clear so I departed off runway 03, round to beat-up runway 27 low level in knife edge and then out the circuit at 200mph for a practice display which I'm working up....total cost for the 30min flight...£25!

Personally if I was going to spend that sort of dosh again I'd be heading here....

Boultbee Flight Academy - Courses (http://www.boultbeeflightacademy.co.uk/courses/)

[stickandrudderman]

Boultbee Flight Academy - Courses (http://www.boultbeeflightacademy.co.uk/courses/)

+1.
I did it last year and it was one of the best days of my life.

[NigelOnDraft]

The Jet Provost Mk3 is almost half the cost of the Mk4 and Mk5 Jet Provost per flying hour.I might query this, you could read it to imply the JP3 is less than half the running cost of a 3/4?

I am unaware of any substantial difference in Fuel Burn, either at a particular IAS, or over a particular range, between the 3/4/5. Yes - at full power a 4/5 will burn the fuel a lot quicker - but so it should at +50% of thrust - and will go a lot faster / further.

NoD

[MichaelJP59]

Anyone know the comparison on costs between a Hunter and a JP?

[Unusual Attitude]

I got quoted £1500 per hr for a Hunter once but that was several years ago so could probably double that by now!

[NigelOnDraft]

Anyone know the comparison on costs between a Hunter and a JP?A multiple of 3 - 5 would be my initial guess ;)

NoD

[emmccan]

All,

As the Chief Pilot of the Newcastle Jet Provost Group & with the highest PPL hours on type in the UK and also a qualified Hawker Hunter pilot i shall answer your questions the best i can.
The costs as per our website are pretty much bang on, working out the cost of fuel at Newcastle today it works out at £166 (the website quotes £150)
Of course we now have access to the MOD rate of fuel which is 35p per litre cheaper then most civil airports, but like any aircraft and even more so in a Jet it all depends on what height you fly at and where you put the throttle - You only pay for the fuel YOU use on a flight.

It should also be noted that there are no expected "cash calls" etc at any point in the near future, last year we got the aircraft completely repainted and we also replaced the Roll Royce Viper engine with a "0" time one.

We had a 1 hour sortie last weekend around the lake district (low level 250 knots, aeros etc...) cost was £200, Landing fees at Newcastle are currently £42. (you have full fire cover, ATC, Rader etc..)

It should also be noted the group rules are all there in black and white before anyone joins the group & it makes it quite clear how to join and how to leave.

I welcome anyone who may be interested in flying a Jet to come along and have a test flight a "try before you buy" which we have full CAA approval for, we also work with the Hunter Flight Academy and any group member now gets the chance to fly in the Hunter should they wish to.

As for Hunter costs these days work on £3500 for a trip, however the costs in the JP and Hunter are much reduced for group members by taking the aircraft to and from events in the UK most of which offer free fuel to attend, all group members get the chance to attend and take advantage of the "free fuel"

To recap

To join the Newcastle Jet Provost Group, you should have 100 hours SEP time. (less maybe acceptable - this is down to the insurance company)
Buy a £1 share in the group.
Pay a £999 non refundable joining fee.
Pay £130 per month to cover all the fixed costs of operating the aircraft

All you pay for on a flight is the fuel YOU use and any landing fee's and that's it no hidden extras.

For further information please contact me below.


Regards

Neil McCarthy

[clunk1001]

Neil,

Thanks for clearing that up. I have also emailed you via your website, and would certainly like to pop down and take a look sometime...

I do have one query - the £200 for the 1hr flight the other day that you mention, was that the TOTAL cost of fuel for 1hr, or was that £200 for each occupant, therefore a total of £400 for the fuel ?

Thanks
clunk

[Timmy44]

A few months ago I emailed the group about the possibility of a trial flight. At the time Neil, you suggested that joining as a 'social member' for £250 would be the way forward, and splitting the cost of a trip because (from your email to me):

once joined you only pay for half the fuel on a flight which is circa £350.

Perhaps it's poor phrasing, and I'm mistaken; to me though that read as if the cost of the trip to me would be £350 (which tallies with UA's figure for today's fuel useage + landing fees).

I'm assuming the Lakes sortie mentioned was £200 per pilot for fuel + £42 landing fee (£442). Even so, I'm not sure how my side for an hour would have been £350?

I'm only now nearing the end of my PPL, but in a year or two hope to be looking around for a share in a JP. Newcastle is my closest at the moment, but the difference between the figures quoted on the website, to me, and on here, make me feel a little uneasy.

Feel free to "quote me happy" always happy to admit I've made a mistake. :)

[clunk1001]

It sounds like the cost of fuel is around £400 per hour, which is split between the 2 pilots, and can vary considerably depending on the type of activity, and the cost of fuel (potentially at military rate) at the time, which would explain the variations.

£400 as a guide price per hour for a jet aircraft seems an excellent rate to me. Hopefully Neil can confirm....

[NigelOnDraft]

It sounds like the cost of fuel is around £400 per hour, which is split between the 2 pilotsWhen I do the bi-annual dual checks with the owners in a JP3 group, if we fly "wings only" we are pushing to get 35-40mins airborne. That is for takeoff, steep turns, a couple of stalls, a few aeros, a PFL, and say ~3 circuits, all interlinked with ~180K transits. I tend to ask the owners to "half tip" it (another ~700lb / 200L), which means we can comfortably do ~50mins-1hr airborne.

The "wings only" means starting with ~1450lbs and landing with 600lbs = 485L. I'll let you do the rest of the maths...

MoD rate fuel sounds great, if you can get to/from there to uplift it.

Splitting the fuel cost is great, but think carefully how much time you will actually achieve that? By the time you have done your training, and recurrent checks, that is a fair number of hours paying all the fuel.

In practice, given the JP speed, a typical flight need not be an hour. A lot of 20-25mins airborne trips in the logs.

I am not trying to discourage JP flying - it is a different sort of flying well worth experiencing while you can. But it is a real shame the % of people who buy in, and never progress to FHT and beyond for finance / time etc.

NoD

[emmccan]

All,

Clunk I can confirm the £200 on the Lakes trip was the cost per person so £400 total.

Timmy44 regarding your comment i have looked back on my emails to over 6 months ago and you enquired about a 1 hour flight (most sorties are 40 - 45 mins) and at the time Newcastle fuel prices were high at 98p per litre + the landing making £330 each on a flight give or take for any holding times or for low level flying it was nothing more then a guide at the time and not the actual cost which may have been a lot cheaper.:confused:

Hope this helps a bit.
Just to confirm the cost of a JP flight is down to the pilot and the size of his wallet!

if its not for you fine, but you should at least try it once :)

Neil

[Unusual Attitude]

Just to further confirm NoD's comments I dug out my old Aircrew manual for the JP3, I'll give you the stated fuel cons figs:-

Firstly, conversions I've used (I know its a bit backward but I'm trying to keep it simple for working out costs!)

1 litre Jet A1 = 0.81kg (I know it changes with SG but I've taken an avg fig)
1 litre Jet A1 = 1.78574lbs

So, at Max Intermediate power (not full chat)

Sea Level = TAS 259kts (IAS 256kts) 30.8 lbs/min or 1035 litres per hr
10,000' = TAS 267kts (IAS 228kts) 23.6 lbs/min or 793 litres per hr

Using Max Cont power

Sea Level = TAS 244kts (IAS 241kts) 27.4 lbs/min or 921 litres per hr
10,000' = TAS 251kts (IAS 214kts) 20.6 lbs/min or 692 litres per hr

As you can see, she's no stranger to a fuel bowser if your nipping on.

Using Econ cruise figs you get the following:-

Sea level IAS 177kts 17.7lbs/min or 595 litres per hr
10,000' = IAS 159kts 13.8 lbs/min or 464 litres per hr

Also you'd want to add 60lbs for start, taxi & takeoff so thats another 34litres.

I really cant be assed using the climb / descent tables to work it out fully but a climb to 10k with full tips at 165kts IAS reducing by 5kts per 5000' gives a time to climb ot 8.6mins and a fuel burn for the climb of 260lbs, you can work the rest out yourself....

I've not included figs above 10,000' as XM479 has the Oxy system de-activated and is placarded as below 10k only.

So I'll leave it to you to figure out how realistic £400 per hr is unless you want to sit at 10,000' doing 159kts IAS, thats also excluding the £42 landing fee of course. I'm assuming your taking fuel from Newcastle at 90p per litre or whatever it is as thats where the aircraft is based and most of the training will be done from.

Now also bear in mind that when your doing your Turbojet Exemption you will be paying THE FULL COST of the trip and in my case also £100 per day for the chap to sit next to me though thats probably no longer the case. I got through mine in absolute minimum time but I was a fresh faced CPL with about 350hrs and had totally studied all the systems, checks and drills (I was no stranger to a CFS check ride! :})
Even so I seem to remember I wasnt allowed to solo until 5hrs on type (6 or 7 trips in total)
As I said before, you will easily be racking up trips at circa £700+ per time in the circuit as your low level with lots of drag.
As Nigel also states you can cost share with other group members but only one of you can log the time so thats no use to get the 20hrs needed to carry pax.

I'd therefore expect that to get to the point of carrying passengers to share your costs your probably looking at a minimum of £15k with landing fees and monthlies etc. Of course if you can take advantage of the free airshow trips and get to log the time then that will save you something and also uplifting cheaper fuel from MOD airfields would help assuming they are happy to let you in without charging a crazy landing fee!

As NoD says its good to try while you get the chance but you really do need to be aware of the costs, and thats without having to put your hand in your pocket for any unforseen Tech issues. I seem to remember during my time a new set of tyres as a cash call, an LP fuel pump problem which kept occuring and that pesky U/C retraction issue which casued me to be chased down the runway by half the airport fire crew (i think they were bored!)....still, better stuck down than up! :ok:

[emmccan]

UA, not sure about your figures to be honest as your guessing at the cost of fuel per litre.

Fuel at Newcastle is at this time is 82p per litre but only 55p at RAF Leeming and the rest of the MOD sites.

The insurance company as you well know dictate the hours required on type to fly the aircraft not the group and at this time (as it has been for the last 4 years) a PPL will need at least 5 hours on type before going solo and a further 5 hours (10 hours in total) before taking passengers which i think is quite fair and of course in our group the the last 5 hours to get up to the 10 can be flown with other group members and each halving the cost.

So by my calculations it could be quite possible to get converted onto a JP3 for circa under £4400, maybe even less if the pilot isnt in a hurry and wanted to use the airshow's (with their free fuel) as training flights.

Which ever way you look at it the JP3 at Newcastle is the cheapest Jet in the UK to buy into and the cheapest Jet in the UK to fly.

All we can say is come along one day what a flight look at the books and go from there, if you dont like it well at least know you know :)

Neil

[MichaelJP59]

It sounds like great fun, but I'd hate to be up there learning to fly the jet if I was at all worried about the huge cash burn rate. It would be enough to think about the actual flying without having £10/minute on your mind as well!

Good job I'm not close enough to Newcastle to be tempted:)

[jez d]

Albeit located at the other end of the country, you could try the Classic Flight Flying Club at Coventry:

www.classicflightflyingclub.com Britain's Most Exciting Flying Club (http://www.classicflightflyingclub.com/index.html)

[uniform21]

Be very careful if you intend to join this group. I know the group has been taken to Court previously for breach of contract. Be very careful about what constitutes a 'training flight'.....consult LASORS as training flights must be carried out by the training captain or qualified instructor. Flying with a group member does not constitute as a training flight.

[cockney steve]

I really had no intentions of commenting on this thread, but I can't let EMMCCAN's initial post slide by.


Having read Unusual Attitude's somewhat less than positive appraisal, I feel that it was probably justified by neil's somewhat devious and economical reply (Perhaps he's a politician or an Accountant?)

Cost of fuel, a somewhat disingenuous statement, truth being, if you can't get a cut-price MOD uplift, (and you have to pay to go and get it...conveniently overlooked!)

Deadly silence about tank-contents before and after your sortie....at this sort of burn -rate, it's not difficult to imagine coming back with a £100 -or two difference...who pays? how? what happens if there's a "discrepancy2 between "last user" and "your flight" figures.

Full repaint and new engine.....very nice!...was that a cash-call to all members?... who made the decision? what happens if a low/no-hours member declines to meet the substantial cost of someone else's flying...or was this a "fait accompli"
Chance to deliver aircraft to an airshow, in exchange for free fuel...solo? pic? or just safety-pilot, covering P1's ass for nowt......and, of course, you can be pretty sure the costs don't end at fuel.


Sorry Neil, It's what you OMITTED to say, that disturbs me, though , to be even -handed, you have made a reply when you have been "called-out" on some of your "creative"
figures.

CAVEAT EMPTOR......disclaimer...As far as I'm aware, I do not know any of the participants in this thread, other than their presence here. I have NO interest in the subject aircraft or it's owners/operators. I have no vested interest, other than as a bystander who believes in open, honest and full transparent disclosure.

[Unusual Attitude]

Interesting this has raised its head again, I was going to reply to Neils last response some time ago however decided I really couldnt be bothered and that people, I'm sure, would figure things out for themselves.

You may also note that Neil is no longer flying the Hunter, I'm told, for similar reasons already alluded to in this thread.

CAVEAT EMPTOR indeed.

[emmccan]

Oh the joys of ex members and running an aircraft group ;)

Chris/Des we are going back here in one case up to almost 8 years ago and a lot has changed in years and for the better i might add!

I can go over prices again if thats what people want but in short if you want to fly a jet aircraft in the UK with the least restrictions from an airspace and group rules point of view then you cant get cheaper then the Newcastle Jet Provost Group.

I invite and welcome any pilot to come up to Newcastle for a fully CAA approved trial flight in our JP you can see first hand our operation and of course costs.

You will never have more fun in an aircraft :)

Please feel free to email directly at [email protected] and i'll happily answer any questions in writing you may have or if you wish to arrange a trial we can do that to.

We are the longest running UK jet operator with a CAA approved training syllabus, we have 2 training captains very little controlled airspace and nothing but lots of beautiful scenery unlike a lot of other operators of the same type down south who have to spend 20 minute's just to find some clear airspace for some aeros!

[email protected]

FYMkmUY7hPY&list=UUu7BRgXfvwD76W1nINXU4rw&feature=c4-overview

It is also worth noting that the regulations around ex military aircraft are changing very soon in the UK to allow us to carry out commercial passenger flying this will have the knock on effect of increasing share costs as the aircraft value should (hopefully) increase but the upside should mean group members could get essentially "free flying" while they carry out a passenger flight on behalf of the group :) subject to approval of course but as we will become "self regulating" this shouldn't be too much of a problem only time will tell, either way income into the group = reduced group costs and safer current pilots :)

Neil

Ps: UA your info you alluded to on the Hunter is duff.

[XJ620]

I'll give you my experience of being in the group for 2 years and I wont sugar coat it......

Firstly, someone is telling you porkies on the fuel cost, JP3 burns about 500-600 litres an hour at probably about 90p per litre in todays money for JetA1. When I was flying it 5 or 6 years ago the fuel price was about 40-50p per litre and I was usually £350-£400 an hour inc landing fees which were about £50 per landing at Newcastle, probably more by now.
Doing circuits at Carlisle was a bit better but it was something like 3 or 4 landings for £100. At todays fuel prices an hour of circuits (low level + lots of drag = lots of fuel burn) will probably stand you £700+ inc landings depending on how many you do.

Some other things I would add about the group.....

- Constantly moving goalposts with regards hour requirements for being allowed to carry pax, make sure you get this confirmed in a written agreement first so it cant be changed.
- Slim to zero chance of getting your £1k back and legal threats to get you to keep paying your monthly fees even after you have 'donated' your share back to the group, as per the agreement.
- Extremely limited availablity of the aircraft during summer weekends as it does the airshow season.
- Flying cost includes NO maintenance cost or engine fund, if something breaks you all chip in, thats from the moment you join whether you've flown it or not.
- All maintenance costs being split equally regardless of hours flown, tends to suit one member in particular who does more flying than the rest of the group put together.
- Group financial structure that relies on a continual flow of members leaving and 'donating' their £1000 share back to the group.

I've no axe to grind and had fun flying 'blunty' during my time in the group but make sure you do your own research on the costs, the group accounts, the number of members in the group and the throughput of members over the last few years. A happy / stable group generally has a very small turnover of members, a high throughput is a sign that not all is well.

As for flying it, its not a difficult thing to fly at all and not that demanding, a few more systems to consider than your average spam-can but its fun enough if you can handle the fuel costs! Typical speeds are about 180kts econ cruise, 220kts if your not so fussed burning fuel and max chat S&L on the deck is about 270kts.

Regards

UA Yeah i took this Bozo to Court and won. I even had to enforce Judgment. He did exactly what you say in your email. Avoid like the plague

[Mach Jump]

Hi, folks.

I just popped my head back in here, after a few years R&R, and noticed that this old thread has been revived.

Sad to see again all the negative comments from the long past, but pleased to add that, for years now, this group been taken over by some of the newer members, and run very differently. The leader of the group is now Neil Charlton. (Not the same Neil!).

I was asked to become the Chief Pilot/CFI after the change, and so I write with some knowledge of the present situation.

Although still operating under the original 'Newcastle Jet Provost Group' name, the aircraft is now based at Leeds East (It will always be Church Fenton to me!).

I can tell you that it uses about 1200lbs(600lt) of JetA1 fuel an hour, which, as I write this, is 97p / Litre, here at CF. This can be shared between the occupants just like any other aircraft. It's left full, and users just refill it after their flight.

I'm happy to answer any questions about the aircraft, either here, or in PMs, and for info about the new group, you can call Des Hart (Probably the only original group member left) on 07393 280310

MJ:ok:





https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1100x655/newcastle_jet_provost_a5190c9a4285e093212e35b1e9b062ca60892d 87.jpg

[Unusual Attitude]

Well this thread is a blast from the past but since its live again I'll provide a bit of an update.

Firstly emmccan is no longer involved with the group and no longer flying the JP or anything else that isn't attached to a 240v wall socket after a run in with a CAA trapper, I'll spare you the details.

After the departure of emmccan I was approached by the remaining 2 or 3 members to rejoin the group and help get it back on its feet which has taken a lot of hard work by all involved given the mess that was left. As MJ (the groups Chief pilot) has pointed out, XM479 now has a fantastic home at Leeds East / Church Fenton and is operated by a well run, well financed group of individuals who are all enthusiastic about keeping her flying for many years to come. She's now in the best airworthiness condition I can remember in the 19 or so years I've been flying her on and off.

Yes we do have a share or possibly 2 available so if you are interested please don't let the history of the group put you off, the individual causing the issues was removed several years ago and we are now in a very good place with the jet finally!

Regards

UA