Civil servant in uniform

[top_cover]

I have the opportunity of employment as a commissioned civil servant in uniform, but am not really sure of the responsibilities and rights that would go with the rank? The post will involve me being the reporting officer for some junior ranks. I am currently serving as a snco! but will be leaving in the near future. Any help and information would be appreciated,
TC

[Samuel]

What on earth is a "commissioned civil servant"?:confused:

[top_cover]

A civil servant who has a rank and wears uniform, in this case a Flt Lt uniform.

[Lima Juliet]

Personnel of the RAF Reserve (Civilian Component): RAFR(CC) are formally appointed to uniformed posts; the officers are gazetted, appear in the Air Force List (when it was published), get the scroll from HM, wear uniform which is indistinguishable from other service personnel, and often hold command authority over regular personnel. In some cases their duties are more onerous than those of the RAFR holding what the service classes as ‘real reserve appointments’.

These RAFR(CC) are, however, recruited through the civil service channels and are paid against an equivalent civil service grade eg: Sqn Ldr = C2. Often, RAFR(CC) are the ‘public face’ of the RAF in areas such as community relations and they can be involved in administering some elements of our international commitments. Those who administer the air cadets, control and oversee the work of the RAFVR(T) and provide professional and service related ‘competences’ which VR(T) personnel don’t have.

Posted by Old Duffer a few weeks ago explains the basics...

[NutLoose]

Didn't civilian Met officers hold similar ?

[CONSTELLATION1]

No. Met Office guys and girls are RAFVR.

[anotherthing]

...the officers are gazetted, appear in the Air Force List (when it was published), get the scroll from HM,...Still haven't received my commissioning scroll... I suppose I won't get it now, as it's been well over 20 years since I joined the RN, and I've been out for a fair few as well.

What training do these 'commissioned Civil Servants' do? I assume at the very least they do the Vicars and Tarts course?

[Wensleydale]

Met Office guys and girls are RAFVR


Daft question then......

Are they subject to the same requirements as regular RAF personnel such as medical, CCS and fitness test? I can imagine some of the Met people who I knew chugging around the gym..... not.

[Pontius Navigator]

TC, I may be a little out of date, to get a commission as a CS you will still need to pass OASC and attend IOT. With an RAFR commission you will have. Seniority commensurate with your rank, but junior to all regular officers of the same rank. Your responsibilities remain identical to all the officers you already know.

Writing assessments for a CS is no different from any other assessments except that unlike a military assessment which affects promotion and ultimately pay, for a CS your appraisal will affect whether they get an annual bonus.

You will also be irked receiving the pay of a cpl if you have to report on a sgt .
:)

[Pontius Navigator]

The IOT is probably the V&T course but you need to get selected first.

Provided you remain in your desk bound CS role you won't need the CCS etc but there are lots of other exciting courses opn to you. Equality and Diversity, GPC, H&S possibly, Security Officer, Service Fund Accounts, Media Ops etc etc :}

[Wensleydale]

Writing assessments for a CS is no different from any other assessments except that unlike a military assessment which affects promotion and ultimately pay, for a CS your appraisal will affect whether they get an annual bonus.




I was in the other situation - my second RO was CS. I was not too bothered about promotion (PAS) and the end of career was near, but I never had my ACR on time to meet the promotion board (despite constant reminders) and the wording wasn't particularly military. I always wondered what would have happened had I redressed? (He was a good chap though, horribly overtasked, and I let it lie).

As to CS courses.... Working for the MOD meant that I had to do all the silly CS courses in addition to the military ones. The biggest bugbear was having to keep the CS computer system (PPPA?) up to date in addition to JPA - double the work (Leave, Courses, Post Information, Terms of Reference and of course keeping my ethic origin updated each year in case it changed).....

[Tiger_mate]

the wording wasn't particularly military

Even the military single services do not work to the same hymm sheet.

Army: Short, succcint, bullet points:E = Lots of unused text.
RAF: Empty OJAR narrative means nothing positive to write, and therefore an unwritten negative.

RAF working for the Army; enough said.

[Cpt_Pugwash]

Ref the OP, there are quite a few cases of CS in uniform, the RFA staff make up the majority, then there are CS who are enrolled in the RCNC, and there are certain Logistics Liaison Officer posts which carry an equivalent mil rank and were uniformed. The one I had most dealings with was based at Charleston, SC and wore the uniform of a Lt.Cdr..
RMAS staff also wore uniform before they were outsourced to SERCO Denholm.

Pontious, way back the V&T (or Knife&Fork) course was the Lieutenants Greenwich Course, as you say, a number (4 to 6) CS were selected annually to attend.. I was on LGC80 but never had to wear a uniform. It was later re-named the Initial Staff Course (ISC)

[ScrinsonBadger]

When you say Civillian in uniform you can only be talking about the RAF!:O

[Impiger]

First of all the RAF Civil Component Commission still exists but is closed to new entrants. So whatever Top Cover thinks he's joining it ain't that.

The comment about Met men refers to the Mobile Met Unit who are not RAFVR but Sponsored Reserves in the RAFR. And yes this means they have to pass all the usual nause: they go through basic reeserve recruit training at Halton and if applicable reserve officer training at Crawnell. Once in they have the same liability for CCS etc.

Still intrigued as to just what Top Cover thinks he's getting in to though.

[Sir George Cayley]

DAP has seconded military, RAF and Navy mostly. Could this be it?

SGC

[Widger]

Those you refer to in DAP are serving Military wearing suits as they are seconded to the CAA.

The MET branch in the RN are serving Military personnel, the RAF are civilians (the met staff that is ;) ).

I seem to remember that to wear a military uniform one needs to have done Military induction. I think it is a reference to the Geneva convention or something. This is where the RAF came unstuck with the putting civilians in uniform within simulators without them ever having gone through Cranwell. Cannot remember what they were called now. not Retired Officers, not sponsored reserves some other type of service.

[Ash679]

I'm a VR(T) type, but I like to keep abreast of these things...

AFAIK Impiger is right - the RAFR(CC) is closed to new entrants ...e.g. in relation to the ATC, what few Wing ExO's have been recently appointed have been on Civil Service Military Support Function (MSF) TCOS, and subsequently commissioned into the VR(T) to give them an Air Force rank (MOD C2/Sqn Ldr equivalent, as previously explained by Old Duffer).

In such circumstances, CS MSF appointees commissioned into the VR(T) would not even need to complete the VR(T) Officers Initial Cse, assuming they were ex-regular Offrs.

As I understand it, in RAFR(CC) days, unless you were an ex-reg Offr (and thus already completed IOT), one had to complete ROIT with the Auggies.

I'd also be keen to hear more about this top_cover!

Cheers
Ash679

[teeteringhead]

Widger I think the ones you mean were called "Aviation Officers" (AVOs). Not just in sims - some Air Traffickers as well - but all IIRC ex-officers.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ash, correct.

I was appointed to the RAFR in my previous rank in the RAF. There was no mention of CC even though I was in the civil service and paid by the CS.

If you have not previously held a commission then you must undergo selection and training commensurate with the service you are wishing to join as whatever flavour of air force you join, RAF, RAFR, RAFVR, RAFVR(T), RAuxAF, you are still an officer and can well discipline airmen placed under orders.

As for the public face of the RAF, visitors (and indeed Army officers) knew no different. I served on civilian committees and boards, worked with civilian organisations, provided an RAF presence over a considerable area etc etc. and enjoyed a level of autonomy denied to mere civilian civil servants.

[Lima Juliet]

With an RAFR commission you will have seniority commensurate with your rank, but junior to all regular officers of the same rank.

Pontius this is incorrect for RAFR. I say this as FTRS are RAFR and hold the same seniority status as the regulars that they serve with. Were you thinking of RAFVR(T)? I know that RAFVR(T) Sqn Ldr OCs on ATC VGS are actually Fg Offs or Flt Lts acting up to Sqn Ldr, so I think this may be what you were getting at?

LJ

[teeteringhead]

In fact all VR(T) officers are substantive Flying Officers, as used to be apparent from the Air Force List - when we had one! :(

All ranks above that - up to Wg Cdr maximum I think - are acting; either paid or unpaid as circumstances dictate.

[Pontius Navigator]

Leon, no, it may have changed but I stand by what I said. I agree that VR(T) are also below RAF. What I stated was with reference to QRs when the matter arose.

Our 1st RO was a flt lt and 2RO a sqn ldr. If what you had said had been true then we would have been senior to our 2RO :)

As usual there was a fudge and we were reported on as C2 CS which, as far as the appraisal form was concerned, was not unreasonable. Naturally the 1st RO called us Sir :)

[Lima Juliet]

Pontius

When I get a chance, I'll have squint at QRs to see what they say.

:ok:

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Pontius

Here is the answer...

Andrew Robathan (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans), Defence; South Leicestershire, Conservative)

Former RAF personnel recalled to the service under the Reserve Forces Act 1980 and 1996 become regular members of the RAF for the duration of the recall and receive pay relative to their rank and seniority. Members of the volunteer reserves, comprising the Royal Air Force Reserve (RAFR) and the Royal Auxiliary Air Force (RAuxAF), receive attendance pay for the occasions they attend training, based on rank and experience.


So ex-regular FTRS recalled under RFA 80 or 96 retain full seniority even though they are de facto RAFR. :ok:

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

Leon, ty, as usual there are exceptions.

I was commissioned in the RAFR but was paid as a civil servant. Robathan was only partly correct. Most RAFR/VR etc got the Jubilee medal. We didn't, sore point.

[Jimlad1]

This isnt an MSF post such as a JRLO or RAF equivalent is it?

[langleybaston]

The Met. situation was very complicated ...... my knowledge in depth ends at 1996.

There were three strata:

most forecasters in BFG were required to accept the possibility of CC RAFVR commissioning in event major war, auth. only by HMG, commissioning docs raised but not dated, uniforms held in store and not issued, sometimes fitted. All required to do annual NBC training but little else. Paid as CS grade, liable to Air Force Law. Highest rank in BFG one of Gp Capt. This held by C Met O BFG.

C Met O SHAPE was commissioned and wore uniform on a daily basis as the Met. Adviser to the head honcho: this post held for many years by a Brit, on a quota system. Paid as a CS at Principal level.

Finally a cadre of forecasters [and latterly observers] as members of the Mobile Met Unit within TAC Comms Wing [I recall] who served as civilians on their home base but were called forward for deployment as required. Uniformed, armed, usual powers of command, initially not coursed at Cranwell but by 1995 required to jump through same hoops as Docs and Padres. Falklands, Gulf, Balkans, Iraq, Afghan. etc. Head of unit a Wing Commander. Line manager C Met O STC as was. Some members rotund.

I am still in touch with some MMU members so could fill gaps of knowledge if demand existed.

[XV208 SNOOPY]

The MMU has been around in some form or other since the Second World War. However, it stood up as a Formed Unit in its own right in the mid 1960s. As Langley and others have said, its members were and are volunteers from the Met Office (forecasters, Observers and Engineers.) This was separate from the old RAF(CC) of the RAFG staff, and MMU were enlisted or commissioned into the RAFVR. MMU members make up only a relatively small percentage of Met Office forecasters, observers of engineers.

Initially it was assumed all had previous regular or National Service, so basic training was limited, if any!

MMU was mainly engaged in support of exercises until Op Corporate. Since then, MMU have been involved in all the major conflicts, as well as supporting a heavy exercise commitment.

With the demise of the RAFVR, HQ Air Command did not think MMU fitted the RAuxAF model (other RAFVR units became RAuxAF Sqns.) Therefore MMU became the trial for the new Sponsored Reserve concept, and so became the only formed Unit in the RAFR.

Basic training also changed. Other ranks followed the same basic training as RAuxAF airman, often at a RAuxAF Sqn. Officers did ROIT, but changed to having to pass SERE about 7 years ago, given the high operational tempo, and that on deployments, they are often in command of regular service personnel of all services.

Continuation training is the usual requirements of CCS, fitness, IPDT, J/I/AMLC at ACS Halton or Staff College at Shrivenham.

Day to day they work as civilians across the Met Office, but are called out under RFA(96) to serve in uniform as and when required.

AP3392 Vol 7 is your guide to the rules and regs.

[langleybaston]

Thank you, very informative. Just one perceived error:

my [never activated, thankfully] appointment to commission typed in 1989 for my role at JHQ as CMetOBFG was definitely RAFVR. I have it in front of me.

[Pontius Navigator]

LB, I think you will see that is exactly what Snoopy said. Air Command is a very new construct.

[langleybaston]

PN:

Not as I read it:

This was separate from the old RAF(CC) of the RAFG staff,

My point is it was not RAF[CC] for me in c. 1989., and I was definitely RAFG staff.

It was, however, CC in c. 1978, when my earlier piece of paper says SLdr CC. This was as a senior forecaster at JHQ.

It is only a minor detail, but as my father was RAFVR I rather like the idea that I nearly was, subject only to World War III happening on my watch.