Early Ferranti Ins System

[syseng68k]

Hi,

Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask, but...

Have recently bought a Ferranti INS system at auction. From the pcb's inside,
it's a early example of a digital ins, but (without disturbing the sensor block),
uses mechanical gyros for sensing. The computer uses bit slice technology and
uses electronic synchro to digital conversion afaics, rather than the older
servo / resolver setup. The psu block had a fried tantalum cap, which i've
replaced and from tracing out the psu input connector, looks to be 28v dc power
only. No power applied as yet though.

The aim is to get this thing working and being self contained, should be a far
easier project than another project to get an early Harrier ins working, where i'm
still collecting the various units. Hendon will be able to help, but no good
unless I can identify which a/c it was fitted, The small outline suggests
helicopter, but have no idea really. Built by Ferranti as part of GEC, around
the late 70's / early 1980's.

Images:

Ferranti_Ins pictures by NikonFtn - Photobucket (http://s775.photobucket.com/albums/yy37/NikonFtn/Ferranti_Ins/)

Anyone in the group have any idea what this was fitted to ?. There's no RAF
stores reference number, just the type number and nato stock code, so may not be
RAF kit anyway. The "SS9" painted on the ident label (and on the connector end
of the case) may trigger some memories though...

Regards,

Chris

[tucumseh]

Gravelbelly will know more, but the GEC/Ferranti name suggests late 80s

The label on one photo says 1998 which is probably a repair date. Guess - "FRE/R/03/98" = Ferranti.Repair.March 98 which is similar to Industry and MoD.

The 4digit/5digit part number convention indicates GEC/Ferranti Radar in Edinburgh, perhaps Crewe Toll.

Tempted to say FIN1110 (Ferranti Inertial Navigation 1110), which was fitted to Sea King AEW Mk2. FIN1110 was endorsed by the Admiralty Board in 1986, so give a year or so to deliver.

By convention, Serial Nos started at 101, so this was an early model.

[ian176]

No idea of the accuracy, but putting the NSN into google gives three hits, the last of which is Detail summary (http://www.nsn-now.com/Indexing/PublicSearch.aspx?QString=)

It returns
5841-99-799-8326 INERTIAL NAVIGATION 04/25/1991
11A1/152820 THORN E M I ELECTRONICS LTD
FIN 1110 SELEX GALILEO LTD

[tucumseh]

That would confirm FIN1110.

11A1/152820 THORN E M I ELECTRONICS LTD

This is a typical Searchwater Radar part number. FIN1110 for Sea King AEW Mk2 was bought as part of a radar upgrade, along with an Autotrack Computer upgrade, because it was required to allow the radar to hold the horizon better. It isn't a contradiction to have an original Ferranti part no, and then be allocated a Searchwater one (Thorn-EMI at Hayes, Middlesex).


The SELEX GALILEO LTD bit is a far newer name, arising from various sell offs.

[Courtney Mil]

Could it be from a Sea King?

[syseng68k]

Thanks very much for the replies. Plugged FIN1110 into google and one result
was a Flight Global reference to an ad for the unit, where the pic looks just
like it. Doppler integration is also mentioned and there is a board in the
unit marked doppler, so I guess that confirms it. That sort of inertial mixing
is standard stuff now, but must have been bleeding edge at the time. It's
quite sad that the uk aviation industry, teeming with life in the 1960's, has
now been reduced to a pale shadow of it's former self.

Flight Global ref is third item down, search "Ferranti FIN1110"

All I need now is a manual, or at least the connector pinouts, though the control
head probably uses an (unknown) serial protocol, which complicates things. The ad
suggests that it may have been sold into civil markets, which may make it easier
to get info if it's < 30 years old. Any other comments from the group appreciated
as well.

Again, Thanks, another step on the way...

Regards,

Chris

[rab-k]

If only my Old Man was still around - he was on the team which designed it; amongst other INS, COMED, HUD and HDD systems which found their way into Harrier, Jag, Tornado, F18, Mig21, A4 Skyhawk, to name just a few destinations for the gizmos which flew out of Ferranti's Silverknowes and GEC Marconi's South Gyle plants in Edinburgh. (Plus a rather dinky moving map display that wound up in a silver Aston Martin DB5:E).

Good luck getting it up and running.:ok:

[Lima Juliet]

I have many hours abusing dual Ferranti FIN1010 until the introduction of the LINS/GPS on the Tornado F3 - not a bad bit of kit...:ok:

[1771 DELETE]

The Nimrod Mk1/ mk 2 operated the FIN 1012 until we went to a ring laser gyro.

[Not Long Here]

1771,

Small correction to that, the FIN 1012 was not in the Nimrod MR 1.

I can't remember the exact model (I think it was an Elliot but it was 32 years ago I last operated in the MR 1) and it was derived from the Blue Steel missile INU.

One quirk was that the final alignment was carried out on the Take off run where the system was selected to Run Align with the true heading of the runway entered and it measured its heading over the first 2000ft of the roll, corrected and then went into Nav.

Did cause problems on CT at light weights (the MR1 was lighter then the MR2)

Cheers

[Gravelbelly]

You say the nicest things :8

It's somewhat dated - I can remember being given one with a cutaway, so that we could drive it through a demo for the 1985?/86? Paris and Farnborough airshows (I was sponsored through University by Ferranti's Navigation Systems Division, but on graduation ended up in Radar Systems Division).

Silverknowes (where they were designed and built) is now long demolished, along with all of the other Ferranti sites in Edinburgh. All that's left is the Crewe Toll site, all shiny and modern apart from the old Lab Block main staircase that was Grade-1 listed. In my eleven years at Crewe Toll, we went through four name changes; Ferranti, Ferranti International Signal, GEC-Ferranti, GEC-Marconi Avionics, BAE Systems. I left before the Selex thing happened.

You should write to Selex Galileo at Crewe Toll; if there's anything, it will be there.

[BATS]

I seem to remember that the MR 1 inertial was called the E3 heading reference system - possibly a GEC item ?

[Yellow Sun]

I seem to remember that the MR 1 inertial was called the E3 heading reference system - possibly a GEC item

Elliot 103, although I did on one occasion fly with a palletised Litton 72.

YS

[syseng68k]

I think one of the early Elliott ins used an inside out gymbal system,
to save space, whereas most of the ins of the time use gymbal assemblies
one inside another to the required degrees of freedom. Have only seen a
pic of this, never one in the flesh unfortunately. Methinks a trip
(or pilgrimage ?) to Rochester might be in order..

Elliotts were a very innovative company that and that sort of solution
was typical of their prowess, which included the dual reflector cassegrain radar
antenna, originally designed in the 50's as a compact antenna for missile use.
Have just been reading Simon Lavington's "Moving Targets" book which
describes all this, as well as the patent infringement legal battles against
us interests. Book not exactly cheap, but found a discounted copy on the ABE
books site. A lot of material on commercial developments, but there's a thread
running all the way through, starting with analog computer Naval gunnery
fire control tables, to work for gchq, to TSR2, Concorde and beyond. A
fascinating read and a must have for anyone interested in the history of
computing and avionics in the uk...

Regards,

Chris

[syseng68k]

Gravelbelly,

Thanks for the info. One of the ways i've handled this in the past was to use the a/c electrical schematic as a way to identify which boxes were connected to what. It's
easy for older a/c like the Lightning or Vulcan, where all the info is in the public domain now, but more difficult with more modern kit, which may still be covered by the 30 year rule. Hendon were quite helpfull with some AP copies with regard to the early Harrier FE541 ins, so will probably drop them a line. Selex Galileo may be abe able to help, but have been put off in the past by thoughts of the man at the other end thinking stuff like "not another bl**dy anorak enthusiast" :-). Will give them a call anyway and ask to speak to their library, or try to find out who to speak to...

Regards,

Chris

[tucumseh]

put off in the past by thoughts of the man at the other end thinking stuff like "not another bl**dy anorak enthusiast"


Don't be put off. You will find old Ferranti hands at Crewe Toll are (rightly) immensely proud of the superb kit that came from their company.

[rab-k]

A bit of a long shot but AFAIK my Ma' still exchanges Xmas cards with a few of the old crowd from the Ferranti Displays Division at Silverknowes. If you get really stuck, PM me and I'll try to get you a contact; but as others suggest Crewe Toll would be a good place to start.

[Tinribs]

I flew a Viscount at RAE Bedford.Radar Research Squadron, in the 79/83 era which had a Searchwater radar attached, Google XT 575

We were part of the development team for the radar which was to go in the Nimrod and was hastily fitted under a sea king when the Falklands got tricky

I think the radar had an inertial for comparison purposes, We once saw Wolf Rock doing 20Knots

The aircraft was scrapped some years ago and the components no doubt reached the market, they will have been seriously non standard

[baigar]

Hi syseng68k, Dear experts,

just discovered this interesting thread! Did anyone successfully
get in touch with someone at Crewe Toll?

Together with a friend we are working as a hobby on similar Ferranti
units (FIN1010 and FIN1012), which we obtained via Liquibiz (FIN1012
from UK Tornado upgrade) and VEBEG (FIN1010 produced for Germany).
In 2011 we have been extremely lucky to get hands on the original
FIN1010 test set from Ferranti (again via VEBEG). During the
last weeks we have been able to restore the test set and gained
some understanding of the unit and the digital protocol it
transmits. We even have got been able to start up a FIN1010
into NAV mode which made us happy (I think I should say "hyper-
extremely happy").

Unfortunately the 1012s seem to be somewhat different from the
1010 and the test set is only able to communicate to the 1010. So
the question is, whether anyone here knows the difference between
1010 and 1012 - mechanically they look the same, only software (i.e.
PCB containing ROMs) is different at a first glance. The guess is,
that the 1010 is the early version and the 1012 incorporates some
improvements and may have been used in a dual-INU-configuration
(e.g. on the internet a page says that Nimrod AEW used two FIN1012s).
Thus the suspicion is, that the added features cause incompatibility
with our test set...

Any hints are highly welcome,

best regards,

Erik, [email protected]

[ORAC]

Baah. That's nothing. Try building one of these. :eek:

Tatjana J. van Vark (http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvve/dduck0.html)

Navigation and Bombing System NBS
(H2S Mk 9A, Navigation and Bombing Computer NBC)
used in V-bombers Victor, Vulcan and Valiant.

http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvve/vulc095s.jpg

http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvve/vrad80b.jpg

[TBSG]

My father was a Ferranti man through and through and was involved in Silverknowes from joining in the early 60s. He was offered and took early retirement in the 90s when BAE bought what was by then GEC Marconi. His last years were as MD of the INS and EO divisions. Although he's retired now, I suspect would be able to give you warts and all - PM me if you want me to put you in touch. Being the old spotter that he is, I am sure he would be fascinated to relive his youth.

[baigar]

Yes, Tatjanas web page and her equipment are really impressive.
She has a a Litton LN3 up and running, too:

Tatjana van Vark ~ The Inertial Navigator Platform, videos (http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv5/vids.html)

But the FIN101x systems are not that bad, too. The platform itself
is of a patented design (US4152942) and really a masterpiece of
mechanical design. The included computer (bit serial beast utilizing
only standard TTL chips distrubuted over several PCBs) is rather
small in size (design obviously from the 1970ties - PCs and home
computers have not been invented then) and very archaic, but
does a lot of arithmetics and spherical trigonometry!

[tucumseh]

ORAC

I am twitching violently and will have nightmares over those Plessey connectors. Solder spills instead of crimps. :{

[syseng68k]

Baigar, #19

Hi Erik,

Have been trying to make some free time to have a closer look at the
unit and start doing some digging for info, but coincidentally, a member
of another forum that I mentioned this unit on has been in touch in the
last couple of days and may be able to help. If I were superstitous, I
might think this was the result of some mysterious confluence of forces.
It's been months since I posted here and in the other forum and then 2
messages almost at once. Time to grasp the nettle, I think.

The other forum is the "Secret Projects Forum", which has loads of
interesting info on old avionics and more. Suggest you have a look. Have
written a long reply to the pm, so hope I don't frighten him off.
He has worked on just about all the Ferranti ins systems. Had a look
at your site - how you had the patience to effectively reverse engineer
that computer down to logic analyser / hardware level is quite impressive.
Renaissance man would have approved :-). In the end, all this sort of
project is long term and have been collecting bits for the FE541 for 8-10
years. Even now, have only a rather tatty gyro platform and weapons aiming
computer, but things like the special power supply are essential to even
get the platform spun up, as the gyros run on ~350 Hz, not the standard 400.

I guess you must have seen the Simon Lavington book, Moving Targets ?.
Essential reading if you are interested in old Elliott technology.

I'll send you a email later so that we have points of contact offlist...

Regards,

Chris

[syseng68k]

tecumseh, #23

I thought the Plessey Mk4 series were quite good connector for their time,
solder or not. The main problem, afaics, with the early connectors, was
inadequate strain relief at the cable clamp dept, thereby flexing the wire
terminations. Think back to the even earlier Breeze connectors, where
all the pins could be sheared off if you forgot to undo the clamp ring, or
it siezed up :-(.

The main problem with the Mk4 was the shell threads, which needed ms4 to
stop siezing, but still a pretty competent design for the late 50's...

Regards,

Chris

[The Oberon]

Nothing wrong with soldering the Plessey Mk4 as in those days we were taught how to solder. A quick resoldering job was much easier than a cable change especially when it was end to end on a Vulcan. MS4 was required to stop seizing but the other advantage with the Mk4 was that you could alter the keyway to suite so you only needed a few NSNs in your "black book".

When the Mk9 came along the keyway was fixed and each pin and keyway config had its own number, lots more numbers and cost.

[baigar]

Hi Chris,

any off list discussion is highly welcome. Of course I know Mr. Lavington's book
and the author as I supplied a picture (page 589) and had the chapter on the
900 series machines (appendix, 579-594) for proof reading... This book
is an extremely valuable resource for all kind of Elliott/GEC/Marconi related
information!

You are absolutely right, such kind of restoration projects are very long term
projects and often only luck helps out. In case of our FIN101x it was extreme
luck to get hands on the test set...

Erik.

[grolly271]

RNAS Culdrose Technical Library might still have an old dusty Air Publication (AP) left over from the Searchwater Workshop when 849 were flying AEW Mk2

[baigar]

Hi Chris,

some years passed by now - did you have a closer look at your Ferranti
INS or did you even play around with it?

Together with two colleagues we have spent some time into revitalizing
the FIN1010s. The result can be seen in a video I revcently loaded up
to YouTube showing and explaining details:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8

We not olny have a FIN up and running, we also built a logger to write
online data together with a GPS track onto a flash cards. This also
broadcasts the data via bluetooth allowing an ordinary tablet PC to
act as online map display. Additionally I built an interface to control
one of the original vintage moving map displays from Tornado based on
35mm film.

Erik.

[kingletit]

Hi. It's a long time since this thread was active however I worked at Ferranti, Silverknowes for many years, right back to the original INAS used on the earliest Harriers.

In production, we used top level part numbers rather than FIN numbers. The early Harriers had an IN part no 3854/00001. The Tornado IN was 3854/36003. Nimrod was 3854/37003 and later Harrier was 38001 (I think). Jaguar was 3854/42003, or maybe 42001. These all had many interchangeable parts. There was a production and parts vontract for a Japanese aircraft. This was quote a bit different. Most of it's parts were prefixed 3862/....

There was a small group who made specials for tests and trials. Given the part number in your pictures, maybe it's based on the Japan product.

[baigar]

Hi and thanks for your posting! Yes, I am aware, that there are
many remakes of this navigation system. I am pretty sure, that
the 3854/36... units are from the German Tornados as we got these
from a big sale of the German air forces. The 3854/37... may be
from the UK ADV's or Gr.1s or even from Nimrod. These two types
I discovered have got minor differences in electronics and
major ones in the auto calibration procedures in software. I
have never seen a Japanese one but of course I know that "the
internet" mentions usage of a Ferranti unit in the Mitsubishi F-1.

Since this thread was active, many things happened and apart from
connecting the RPMD as shown in the YouTube video I have got an
attitude indicator connected now and I showed the FIN1010 with
RPMD, logger and ADI in working condition on the vintage computer
festival in Munich this year:

Vintage Computing / Avionics / Programmer Electronic Control (http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/TimeLine.html#VCFE18)

The system survived the 7 live demos and I got lot of positive
feddback on the demos and the talk I gave on the festival.

I also repaired some units (two FIN1012 I have got) and one of a
friend, but I am still keen on getting in touch with people with
know how from the good old days - so many thanks for responding!
I am very keen on collecting all information on these units and I still
do not have got any knowledge, how the platform was assembled and
especially how the values of the components on the platform trimmer
PCB have been determined during production. So e.g. in replacing a gyroscope,
there must have been (a) a mechanical alignment procedure as the gyro
can be rotated to adjust the input axis and (b) some jig must have
been used to subject the the azimuth cluster (or the whole platform?)
to movements recording the outputs and probably a computer (that type?)
calculated the values for the trim components afterwards?

In August I am visiting the UK and I hope I can visit the APSS close
to Edinburgh to see what remained from the Ferranti developments and
as far as I know, the original building has been destroyed sine than:

Activities/Projects............................................. (http://www.apss.org.uk/projects/APSS_projects/radar/Avionics/index.htm)

Links to talk and poster with some pictures and information I collected
over the years; sorry, but only German language:

http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/FIN-Demo-VCFe-20170429.pdf
http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/Ferranti-INS-VCFe-20170420.pdf

Best regards and have a nice weekend,

Erik.

P.S. You can always get in touch at my private email erik -at- baigar.de

[jmelson]

Baah. That's nothing. Try building one of these. :eek:

Tatjana J. van Vark (http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvve/dduck0.html)




She also has a video of her picking up a running Litton INS and putting it through a gimbal lock.

Tatjana van Vark ~ The Inertial Navigator Platform. (http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv5/platfrm.html)

Click the bottom right picture for the videos.

Jon

[baigar]

She also has a video of her picking up a running Litton INS and putting it through a gimbal lock.

Tatjana van Vark ~ The Inertial Navigator Platform. (http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv5/platfrm.html)

Click the bottom right picture for the videos.

Jon

We had a link to Tatjana's page already posted in this thread in 2012 - I also think, that
nevertheless the Vulcan's navigation system was quite outstanding and there is a interesting
video on inertial navigation for blue steel and Vulcan on the Rocheser Avionics Archive's web
pages:

Elliott Inertial Navigation System for Blue Steel (principles & manufacture) :: Rochester Avionic Archives (http://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/media-archive/film/elliott-inertial-navigation-system-for-blue-steel)