Historic campaign medals reconsidered? [Archive]

November4

30th Apr 2012, 12:44

The Prime Minister has announced an independent review of the rules and principles governing the awarding of military campaign medals.

David Cameron announced that Sir John Holmes will carry out a fresh, independent review taking account of the longstanding principles that have determined past decisions.

The existing guiding rules and principles for the awarding of military campaign medals are that:

• awards will not be considered after a period of five years has elapsed after a particular military action;

• individuals will not be rewarded twice for the same military campaign, i.e. no 'double medalling'; and

• awards are based upon significant 'risk and rigour' for the individual concerned.

The Coalition Government stated its intention in its Programme for Government, published in May 2010, to review the rules governing the awarding of general campaign medals as a part of its commitment to rebuilding the Armed Forces Covenant.

The review will not consider individual gallantry awards, nor will it cover medals for long service or good conduct, which are the responsibility of parent government departmets.

The review should draw on, but not necessarily be guided by, the work already undertaken as part of an initial Ministry of Defence medal review.

Sir John, who is currently Director at the Ditchley Foundation and formerly served as the UN's Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency and as Her Majesty's Ambassador in Paris and London, will be supported by a small team based in the Cabinet Office.

The review will ensure that all interested parties, including the veterans' organisations, are fully consulted, and aims to deliver a report with recommendations where appropriate for any change by the summer to the Government.

MOD (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/GovernmentAnnouncesIndependentMilitaryMedalsReview.htm)

If this report says that medals should be issued for historic campaigns then the obvious ones are for Bomber Command and the Arctic Convoys.

But what other ones should be considered for a new medal?

and how far back should they go....Gallipoli?

Pontius Navigator

30th Apr 2012, 13:54

N4, I think it would be safe to exclude WW1. The only beneficiaries would be grandchildren and great-grandchildren who may have no understanding of the issues. I believe only 3 medals were issued with no recognition for actions in Africa or the Atlantic or Pacific.

In WW2 there were theatre stars but these were limited to a maximum of five. Those who served in Burma and the Pacific could be awared one, those who served in the Atlantic, France and Germany, and Aircrew Europe could be awarded only 2. On this rule of 5 some potential recipients of the Arctic or Bomber Comand awards (if created) would only be entitled to a rosette on one of the other medals.

My wife's father was awarded a defence medal probably on account of service at Hell Fire Corner. His father, OTOH, who served with the Patrol Service at Lowestoft was not awarded the defence medal.

There are plenty of post-war campaigns that had significant threat to life and limb that were not recognised with an individual medal. The 1962 General Service covered 18 campaigns and the 1918 GSM 17 campaigns with 10 of those post-WW2. That is an awful lot of medals not created and supplied.

sisemen

30th Apr 2012, 15:50

Cold War? The spivs are already cranking out a pseudo cornflakes medal for that lengthy campaign.

And how about giving all those who were serving at the time of the Silver Jubilee an issue rather than the blonde WRAF with big tits who got the one medal awarded to that particular unit?

Old-Duffer

30th Apr 2012, 16:04

I say SISEMAN, I didn't know you knew my sister - she's never mentioned your name!!

BEagle

30th Apr 2012, 18:52

Old-Duffer, your post means nothing without a photograph!

Personally I agree with the issue of the 1977 Queen's Jubilee medals to all those who met the criteria at the time. Also a Cold War medal - and the medals awarded by the Emir of Kuwait and King of Saudi Arabia for those who served in GW1, which other nations permit their personnel to wear, but the UK does not.

November4

30th Apr 2012, 19:05

There are plenty of post-war campaigns that had significant threat to life and limb that were not recognised with an individual medal. The 1962 General Service covered 18 campaigns and the 1918 GSM 17 campaigns with 10 of those post-WW2. That is an awful lot of medals not created and supplied.

Agree there but these campaigns have been recognised and awards made to cover them be it a bar to the GSMs. My reading of this is that it is to look at campaigns which have not been covered previously.

Also one of the things they are looking at is is the "double medalling" which IMO is to look at the Saudi and Kuwaiti medals for Gulf part 1

skippedonce

30th Apr 2012, 19:10

And more recently the NATO Non-Article V medal for Afghanistan, which the UK taxpayer has already shelled out for through our national contribution to the NATO budget.

Widger

30th Apr 2012, 19:11

So no more medals for guarding Cyprus, or working in Qatar or living in a hotel in Italy!!!!:{:{:{

Pontius Navigator

30th Apr 2012, 19:50

N4, true, I was really saying what cheapskates HMG had been releasing the purse strings slightly in 1948 and then not until the Falklands and the NuLabour medals.

Double medalling with the GSM has occured though with the ACSMs 199and 2011.

Tankertrashnav

30th Apr 2012, 21:31

How about introducing one for service beyond the call of duty down Bugis Street, with extra clasp for The Gut? My claim will be in like a shot if they do ;)

Pontius Navigator

30th Apr 2012, 22:02

How about introducing one for service beyond the call of duty down Bugis Street, with extra clasp for The Gut? My claim will be in like a shot if they do ;)

In which case I would qualify for Dirty Dick's in La Linea, the Hole in the Wall in Gibraltar, the Gut and bar, Hero's Square and accumulated service medal, Georgetown Penang, and of course Bugis Street.

Then there would there be the Brass Nut at Kef, the Mexican side at Goose Bay, and the O-club at Geilers.

In fact you might have opened a can of worms there.

Cornerstone958

30th Apr 2012, 22:05

With an aditional 'CLAPing' hands bar should you have visited the Clinic!!
CS

Big Pistons Forever

1st May 2012, 01:51

It is a slippery slope and then one day you are eating breakfast and the guy/gal sitting next to you has more medals than years of service :{. You only have to look at the Americans to see where that leads. Sadly Canada is going down the the same road. A friend of my has an Afghanistan medal.....he earned it by being OC parties for the US Commanding General in Doha. For his 6 month tour he lived in a 5 star hotel and the worst thing that happened to him was a wifi outage so he couldn't talk to his wife on skype :eek:

Don't go there !

Lima Juliet

1st May 2012, 05:59

My twopenneth

If there was a Cold War medal, when would the qualfication end?

- Fall of the Berlin Wall in 89?
- Collapse of Soviet Union early 91?
- Formation of CIS in late 91?

Similarly for the start date?

- VE Day?
- VJ Day?
- Berlin Blockade 1948?

There would be millions of medals that would need minting and awarding - equating to tens of millions of pounds. Anyone notice we're trying to cut back on spending?

I agree that the Silver Jubilee Medal was a farse, but I believe the milk is long spilt.

On to later campaigns, the Foreign awards could be instated (ISAF and GW1) at a minimal cost to the UK. But cost is an interesting thing; if we go for Cold War and Foreign medals then that will cost me £150+ for their mounting with ribbons for No 1s and miniatures for No 5s - the QDJ cost me £135 all in so far!

So I would say, be careful what you wish for!

LJ

Mr-Burns

1st May 2012, 07:26

So does this mean that our Truckie colleagues will actually have to get involved in a conflict if they want a medal now?? ;)

BEagle

1st May 2012, 07:44

Mr_Burns, that is a particularly tasteless comment.

Are you not aware of the loss of Hercules XV179 with its entire crew and passengers to hostile fire during OP TELIC?

You might care to amend your thoughtless post.

ORAC

1st May 2012, 07:44

I did 25 years from 1974-99 and left without a medal. I don't feel hard done by, I never got shot at or did anything beyond what I was paid to do. I dislike the idea of a Cold War medal or such, I'd be embarrassed to wear it.

Personal opinion of course.

Tankertrashnav

1st May 2012, 09:14

Agreed ORAC. I actually got one for six months on ops in an air-conditioned office at Khormaksar, and the only injury I suffered was sunburn caused by falling asleep on the beach at Steamer Point. I certainly dont want a Cold War Medal either.

P-N - you're going to need a very long length of ribbon to accommodate all those clasps - respect :ok:

McGoonagall

1st May 2012, 09:23

I agree that the Silver Jubilee Medal was a farse, but I believe the milk is long spilt.Leander Class Frigate. 260ish ships company. On the way to Spithead review. Ship is gleaming. Skipper clears all hands aft.

'Morning men and stand easy. The Lord High Commissioners of the Admiralty have deemed that in honour of Her Majesty's 25 years on the throne we are to be awarded a Silver Jubilee medal (cheers). Three of them between all of us (groans). First of all, ones mine because I always wanted a second medal bar. The second one is awarded to Junior Seaman XXXXX as he is the youngest in the ship. The third will be decided by raffle, tickets at 50p each can be bought from Midshipman XXXXX proceeds to ships funds. Number One? Carry on.

:}

Old-Duffer

1st May 2012, 09:53

BEagle, Your post 5, she's not blond anymore!

A medal for the troubles in Hong Kong during the Cultural Revolution of 1967ish. Several service and police were fatal casualties.

Can the services ever cope with a long service medal for their officers. It always fails on the 'good conduct' bit and how to deal with officers whose 'behaviour has left something to be desired'.

O-D

Pontius Navigator

1st May 2012, 10:34

With an aditional 'CLAPing' hands bar should you have visited the Clinic!!
CS

Before the second bar to the medal our 'medical' officer (a nav so appointed) was directed to go to the local Aussie hospital and ask for 'fred'. This was code for a mega box of prophylactics for issue to the troops. He duly went and coyly asked for a box of freds. 'Fred' appeared with the required gross. 'Fred' was a 6' 2" Aussie nurse complete with moustache and beard. After she handed it over he beat a hasty retreat.

The Aussies also helpfully had a photographic display outside the guardroom showing all the brothels that were out of bounds. Their proud owners were outside posing for the pics.

Style.

Union Jack

1st May 2012, 13:46

'Morning men and stand easy. The Lord High Commissioners of the Admiralty have deemed that in honour of Her Majesty's 25 years on the throne we are to be awarded a Silver Jubilee medal (cheers). Three of them between all of us (groans). First of all, ones mine because I always wanted a second medal bar. The second one is awarded to Junior Seaman XXXXX as he is the youngest in the ship. The third will be decided by raffle, tickets at 50p each can be bought from Midshipman XXXXX proceeds to ships funds. Number One? Carry on.

Nice story, McG, but somewhat at odds with the fact that the RN allocation was very strictly controlled under the direction of the Directorate of Naval Service Conditions, with awards made to named individuals, including all commanding officers of ships and establishments, irrespective of rank.

Back on track, and with specific reference to the Cold War, the award of the Royal Navy Deterrent Patrol Pin is a form of recognition for the Polaris force, and the award is of course ongoing for service in Trident Class submarines:

"The RN Deterrent Patrol Pin consists of an image of HMS Resolution, with
superimposed Polaris missile and electron rings signifying the armament and nuclear powered characteristics of the "at sea deterrent force". A scroll beneath the submarine is inscribed with the motto "Always Ready". The pin is a two level award of silver or gold dependent on the number of patrols completed after the initial qualifying patrol (patrols in excess of 30 days are to be counted as eligible patrols) ...."

Jack

sisemen

1st May 2012, 13:53

"I've decided to award the other allocated Jubilee Medal to SACW xxxxxx. I know that we will all share in this award (as we have all shared SACW xxxx)."

Wonder if it still has a place on honour on her mantlepiece. The really annoying part was that when she actually got it she was in her final few weeks of service!!!! :yuk:

November4

19th Dec 2012, 12:21

The PM has announced that

Veterans of the Arctic convoys in the Second World War will be awarded medals, David Cameron has announced.

The prime minister said the "brave men", who ensured supplies would get through German blockages to the Soviet Union, "richly" deserved recognition.

There would also be a "clasp" for veterans of Bomber Command, he added.

More than 3,000 seamen died in Operation Dervish, with only an estimated 400 veterans still alive. The decision follows a long campaign

The demand for medals has previously been turned down on grounds of protocol.

The mission to keep the supply lines to the Soviet ports of Murmansk and Archangel open was described as the "worst journey in the world" by former Prime Minister Winston Churchill.
'Inconsistent'

Mr Cameron told MPs he had accepted the recommendations of a review of military medals carried out by former diplomat Sir John Holmes.
Arctic convoy ships Only around 400 veterans of the Second World War convoys are still alive

He said: "I am very pleased that some of the brave men of the Arctic Convoys will get the recognition they so richly deserve for the very dangerous work they did.

"On Bomber Command, Sir John concluded that they have been treated inconsistently with those who served in Fighter Command."

Gosport Conservative MP Caroline Dinenage, who has been a prominent campaigner for Arctic convoy medals, said it was essential they were awarded soon.

She said: "I'm delighted that the government have addressed the huge injustice suffered by the Arctic convoy veterans.

"I would now urge the government to deliver on the medal as a matter of urgency, after years of waiting. Time is no longer a luxury that these brave men have on their side."

The announcement came during the last Prime Minister's Questions session of the year.

BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20783362)

Assume this will only be for those still alive.

Pontius Navigator

19th Dec 2012, 13:50

Assume this will only be for those still alive.

There is no precedent for not awarding the medal to NOK.

The Arctic Star was made available to widows and nok although, unlike medals, they were not supposed to be worn by widows.

A possible precedent was set by the veterans' badge which was not issued posthumously nor to be worn except by veterans.

November4

19th Dec 2012, 14:29

Thanks PN

I know they weren't British but the Russian Convoy 50th and Malta Convoy medals issued by their respective Governments could only be claimed by those still alive. My grandfather got the Russian one but the Maltese government lost his application and by the time we resubmitted, he had died so they refused the application.

Not that he ever put any store by medals....or so he kept saying

zetec2

19th Dec 2012, 15:36

I thought I got my LS & GCM for serving 18 years of undetected crime in the employ of Queen Bet ?.

With regard to the 1977 Jubilee medal was I serving at Finningley during that period & the blond with the big t*ts got it for services above & beyond the call of normal, she was a serving "local purchase WRAF who went under (pun) the jolly name of "Martini" any time, any where any how, oh what fun we all had, PH.

AARON O'DICKYDIDO

19th Dec 2012, 15:59

How about introducing one for service beyond the call of duty down Bugis Street, with extra clasp for The Gut? My claim will be in like a shot if they do

I'll be right behind you. Plus I think I deserve a clasp for 'Hero's Square' in Limassol and of course 'Ellen's bar' in Nicosia - (Mind your eyes those things might fly off and hit you in the eye! and has anyone got a coin and a lighter!). And another for the 'Desert' in Addis. The OLD 'Big C' in Belize City was another danger spot.

Aaron.

GalleyTeapot

19th Dec 2012, 16:35

http://aweirdthing.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dastardly2.jpg

Sloppy Link

19th Dec 2012, 19:10

PN,
Willing to be corrected but the rosette would merely signify a bar to an existing medal when the full medal (with bar) is not being worn, therefore I would expect the bar to read "Arctic Convoy" to worn an an Atlantic Star and "Bomber Command" to be worn on an Aircrew Europe Star or perhaps both could be worn on a 1939-1945 Star.

For WWI there was the British War Medal and the Allied Victory Medal and two Stars, the 1914 Star (with bar 5 Aug-22 Nov if entitled), commonly but incorrectly known as the Mons Star and the 1914-15 Star. An individual can only be the recipient of one or the other and to have either Star must also be entitled to the BWM and AVM. Little known, but some 113,000 Mercantile Marine War Medals were awarded to the Merchant Navy and although not instituted until 1920, some 34,000 Territorial Force War Medals were awarded. The recipient had to be entitled to the BWM and not entitled to either of the Stars.

Those medal spotters among us will view with interest how the new awards will recognised

:8

Pontius Navigator

19th Dec 2012, 19:24

the rosette would merely signify a bar to an existing medal when the full medal (with bar) is not being worn, therefore I would expect the bar to read "Arctic Convoy"

The Arctic Star to which I referred is not a medal in the WW2 campaign star series. It is a rather handsome brooch of a white star enamel with a red centre and the label The Arctic and properly described at an emblem and would be worn by an Arctic veteran as a lapel pin and not part of the official cluster. My MiL was able to claim one in respect of her deceased husband.

The first Arctic Emblems were presented to Veterans on 10 October 2006 by Veterans' Minister Derek Twigg as a mark of the Nation's gratitude for the heroism they displayed in the face of terrible hardship on the Arctic Convoys of World War Two. Fittingly, the presentation took place on the quarterdeck of HMS BELFAST on the 65th anniversary of the first regular convoy's arrival at Archangel, North Russia.
(See more on this article here). Since then over 9,000 Arctic Stars have been issued.

The Arctic Emblem has been specially commissioned to commemorate the service of Merchant Seamen and members of the Armed Forces in the icy waters of the Arctic Region between 3 September 1939 and 8 May 1945.

Krakatoa

19th Dec 2012, 19:39

As usual nobody mentioned Korea

Pontius Navigator

19th Dec 2012, 20:14

As usual nobody mentioned Korea

Why? :confused:

Sloppy Link

19th Dec 2012, 20:28

PN, got it, see where you are coming from.

Wah-ing is childish and puerile which is why I will answer the question, I also believe PN not to be of that ilk. British servicemen serving in Korea are entitled to wear the medal awarded by HMG and the UN. No-one is really sure why the doubling of awards was allowed to slip through but popular opinion is that as the HMG medal had already been awarded, when the fledgling UN awarded their first medal a little later, it was considered the correct thing to allow servicemen to wear it.

Pontius Navigator

19th Dec 2012, 20:51

SL, thank you. Looking at Currently authorised medals (http://justmedals.com/current.html) it appears that treaty medals, and I include UN, can be awarded and worn in addition to national medals whereas other nation medals are not listed.

There was a case in WW2 where Lt Col Orste Pinto (IIRC*) was awarded French decorations but forbidden from wearing them. When he visited the FF HQ they asked why he wasn't wearing them. To avoid embarrassment he used to wear them only when visting the FF.

*It may have been an SOE officer rather than Pinto that I recall, possibly Wg Cdr Forest Frederick Edward Yeo-Thomas.