Autopilot engagement after lift-off. Request for information

[Centaurus]

On Pprune forums there have been many opinions on automation dependency and whether this has become a major or minor flight safety problem or not. For this reason, it might be useful to see how much hand flying takes place in the real world of airline flying. Simulator instructors may consider this when planning their sessions.

To start off with, it would be interesting to have some idea how soon pilots engage the automatic pilot after lift-off? And how soon before touch-down do they disengage the automatic pilot? This would apply to any aircraft you are flying, so replies (always gratefully received) should include aircraft types.

My guess for most medium to heavy jets and turbo-props is an average of three to five minutes after lift-off before autopilot engagement. And for landing approach, disengagement of the autopilot between one to three minutes before touch-down. Of course much depends on company SOP and replies should indicate whether you are constrained by SOP or merely your personal preference. Thank you in advance if you go to the trouble of replying for your type.

[Intruder]

After takeoff, I wait until I'm at climb speed above 10,000'. On approach, when VMC underneath any heavy cloud layers.

Those are restricted by requirements to use autopilot for RNAV-2 and -1 departures and arrivals in some locales.

[Slasher]

Depends on the circumstances Cent. A good day and good wx
with light workload I'll pole it till F280 (before enterin RVSM).
With heavy workload and bad weather - somewhat earlier for
efficient use of pilot resource (usually mine).

All the kids punch the AP button at 100ft AGL irrespective of
whatever is going on. I used to encourage them to do some
hand flying but its like banging your head on a brick wall. So
I don't anymore.

[zlin77]

B777..after take-off about 3,000 Ft.....before landing generally 1,000 Ft...

[Denti]

Its an extremely wide range in my outfit. From flying fight director off until leveling off in cruise to those that engage the autopilot at 400ft. Personally i usually fly at least until after acceleration above FL100, sometimes up until reaching cruising level. However if the other one seems to become overloaded in extremely busy terminal areas i will use it earlier.

Downwards everything off around FL100 or higher, except if I'm too damn tired or again if the workload is too high in busy airspaces. In those cases the autopilot is off usually right after ILS or approach interception.

[parabellum]

Out of LHR, company SOP on B744, Autopilot in at 400' and let LNAV fly the noise abatement procedure, we were always heavy and the noise violations we got were when the a/c was being manually flown. Other times, depending on weather and work load, cleaned up and passing 10,000 was quite usual. In descent anywhere from 10,000' down wards, again depending on weather, workload and fatigue level.

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

I usually set the A/P on shortly after takeoff. IMHO traning value of hand-flying after t/o, during climb, or descent is rather limited (come on, keeping the bars centered on climb-out doesnt't require exceptional skills, does it?), while it significantly increases the workload for both pilots, esp in busy airspace, or on complicated SIDs. Approaches are are a different matter though - I try to frequently shoot visuals, raw-data ILS and circle-to land's to keep sharp.

And the thing that really ticks me off, are guys who hand-fly until TOC to "practice their flying skills" and then, on the approach, keep the A/P on till 200'... :ugh:

[Mungo Man]

I hamd fly to TOC or at least until at climb speed above FL100 regularly. I'm often asked if I have a sim check coming up. On the way down, on a 4 sector day I try to hand fly from 3/4000 ft on base leg at least once, depending on fatigue / weather etc. Noramlly it will all be flight director but if good VMC I'll fly raw data ILS or perhaps a visual.

I find hand flying stimulates the brain in a different way from monitoring the autopilot and makes me feel 'sharper'.

[AerocatS2A]

BAe146. Generally hand fly to 5000-10000 after take off and from 1500-3000 prior to landing. Personal preference, not restricted by SOPs.

[hikoushi]

B717, 6 to 10 segment days, average flight time :25 minutes, VMC 90% of th time. Mostly unrestricted visual approaches in VFR conditions with unlimited visibility or instrument approaches to a 1-2000 ft ceiling. First leg fly it to cruise and level off a/p and a/t off, or to established and in trim at climb speed above 10000 if cruise above FL180. Sometimes all the way up, since we never go up to RVSM altitudes. Workload of the other pilot permitting, of course. Midday with busy ATC a/p comes on somewhere between 1000 or 5000 ft unless hand flying would offer a smoother ride in the constant mountain lee turbulence we have here. A/P and ATS off at TOD, 10000, or cleared for the approach if WX is good, workload is low (usually is), and feel like it.

Bad weather autos on until usually about 1000-1500 on a vis or ILS approach to get a feel for the wind before landing or waving off. Nonprecision will usually keep it on until starting out of MDA if the weathwr is bad. Everyone is different, some are on the auto flight pretty much all the time, most turn it in around 5000 and off around the same. SOP gives latitude. Most guys keep the flight director on, some turn it off on a visual approach. Similar at previous company in the 737, same routes.

Because of the high-pace VFR environment very hands-on style of flying; lots of close-in maneuvering on approach due to local procedures so manual skill stays sharp. Mostly plan descents with mental math and the airport VOR-DME or FIX page, vertical navigation mostly only used for nonprecision approaches. Very fun if you like to actually fly.

[casper63]

Great Stuck in an ATR that is the way to do it. No hand flying after take off, you might as well practice on MS flight sim. On approach always before 1,000ft AGL if you are visual with the runway. Raw data ILS at least once a week to maintain your flying skills.

[Slasher]

IMHO traning value of hand-flying after t/o, during climb,

What traning value? What about if someone does it because
he just wants to enjoy hand-poling the thing? And horrors -
he might've even done a FD off TO out in the boonies! :bored:

[bubbers44]

Handfly all you want. No FO will ever turn you in and not handflying makes you a bad pilot. Just do it, I did and it made me a better pilot. Choose your airports to do it. I picked TGU Honduras because you had to hand fly the approach. It was named the most dangerous airport in the world for an airliner because of the terrain. I loved it because you could break all the rules and still be legal. Do not let your airline make you a so- so pilot because they won't let you hand fly. I flew with the biggest at one time and still handflew whenever I wanted. You can too.

[Langkasuka]

Simple departures like KUL, SIN, BOM...autopilot on at 10000 feet or higher up to TOC.

In anal retentive and noise sensitive European airports with PRNAV departures like FRA and LHR, the autopilot gets engaged a 200 feet AGL.

[blah blah blah]

Most of our flights leave around 2000-2300 local and then arrive after 10-15 hours flying. I much prefer to see the guys use the AP asap after takeoff and take it out as late as possible prior to landing.

The reality is that we are tired when we start work and even more tired when we finish. Using the AP limits the number of mistakes and means the handling pilot can contribute rather than just concentrating on keeping the needles centered.

Skill fade is of course a big issue. Personally though I think there is a greater chance of mistakes happening due to hand flying compared to the chance of needing to hand fly due to a failure.

[Slasher]

I picked TGU Honduras...


You go there? You lucky lucky bastard! Visual flight rules only..no instrument landing systems..the
red-blooded jet jockey's dream. :ok:

I-B4QCb2NhI iAxAso8xSo0

You would hate flying with me to TGU bubbers - I'd hog all the approaches and landings (Well....
when the wx's bloody good anyway). ;)

Just wondering - do you have to flick off the ground prox for that approach?


Still, Paro would have to be the one to beat... (start at 5:00)

YsZqN-uEgQU

[nick14]

Ap in 1000/1500' after, as standard. Depends on the day and the commander.

Sop to not hand fly above FL200.

On approach, again depends on the captain and weather, for me I like to hand fly as much as possible, although the company isn't so keen on it.

[FullWings]

I agree with Stuck_in_an_ATR. Many pilots idea of "manual flying" is following the flight director in LNAV & VNAV with the autothrottle engaged. What's the point? A monkey could do that. Some airlines' SOPs make it difficult to do anything else in a realistic manner, though.

I generally stick the AP in after cleanup but if it's going to be a busy departure with lots of frequency and heading changes in a high-traffic environment, I bung it in at 200' so as to free up some capacity in the non-handler.

If they're smooth on the controls, I personally don't mind how much poling people do when sat next to me but many are fighting the aircraft all the time, even in calm air and it's a relief when the AP goes in and the "turbulence" stops... :rolleyes:

AFAIK, there are no current airliners certified for AP engagment *before* liftoff, so everyone *has* to practice things like keeping on the centreline, stopping the upwind wind lifting in crosswinds, rotating at the right rate to the right attitude, etc. These are much more useful skills to exercise than pretending to be an autopilot higher up.

[crosswindaviator]

Once a day, ap/at/fd off, bird off on the bus...as soon as radar vector... So today was at fl80 into lgw....

If you don't practise it you become :uhoh:
If you do it regularly it becomes dead easy :ok:

Of course conditions permitting, but OVC 004 is NOT a reason to chicken out :)

[TyroPicard]

Re the videos .. the 757 pilot into TGU would certainly benefit from more practice....

[babotika]

A320 - I only engage otto after thrust reduction/acceleration as hand flying is more comfortable for the people in the back. Usually 2-3000ft. If it's nice and the airspace isn't too busy I may hand fly a bit higher but as someone else pointed out there isn't much skill benefit... It is fun though.

Coming down never lower than 1000ft and whenever the airspace, weather or traffic permits I'll try to fly visually or raw data. It really depends on how many instructions we're likely to get from ATC. Auto thrust off at least once a week.

[sheppey]

I bung it in at 200' so as to free up some capacity in the non-handler.

Where does the PNF come into this? Regardless if you are hand flying or plugging in the autopilot, the PNF does his normal job of selecting gear and flaps at your direction, reading the checklist and handling the radios with maybe a few prods at the CDU. That is not exactly hard work so what's this business of "freeing up some capacity" for the non-handler?

[Dream Land]

I wait until 500 FT, there is no skill involved to manually follow flight director bars (or satisfaction), I see many FO's doing this to about 3000 FT and wonder if they get some sense of accomplishment from this, I could train any 13 YO off the street to hand fly an Airbus to 10,000 FT, this has nothing to do with actually knowing how to fly.

D.L.

[FullWings]

Where does the PNF come into this? Regardless if you are hand flying or plugging in the autopilot, the PNF does his normal job of selecting gear and flaps at your direction, reading the checklist and handling the radios with maybe a few prods at the CDU. That is not exactly hard work so what's this business of "freeing up some capacity" for the non-handler?
With our SOPs, it means that I, as HP, can do MCP mode selections, FMC alterations, maybe even tune the radio while the NHP is talking. In extremis, make flap/gear selections, although I generally don't do that.

I agree that none of these activities are particularly onerous but they sometimes all happen in a short timespan on a busy departure. It seems an unequal division of labour between me holding the control column (not much effort) and my opposite number working like a one-armed paper hanger with all the potential for errors and omissions which that brings. Also, I think it comes under the heading of good CRM: using the autopilot and in so doing, taking workload off the NHP, gives the NHP more spare capacity to monitor the performance of the aircraft.

I fly an aeroplane certified for operation with a minimum complement of two type-rated pilots. Yes, it is quite possible to fly it solo but why? I don't work for a "man and boy" outfit so would rather share the workload equally than pile it all on the fellow professional sitting next to me...

[Natstrackalpha]

Hey, Slasher - thanks for those! I was looking for the Bhutan App for ages. super VMC approach - as you said, not allowed in IMC - kewel approach!!!

(don`t tell me they did that in a 330? English, long way from home = 330 - it has to be a 320, or not?) Nice manual handling . . I am sure there is another approach to the same place but from a different gully, a lower, more picturesque (if thats possible) approach. anyway, great video - hope to go there soon. (doubt it) Was it an A320?
I think it was - eng sound `an ` all that.

Nice video.