King Air 200 on a PPL?

[DCTCLM]

I have a student who under JAA/EASA asked if he could fly a KingAir 200 on his PPL with class 2 medical.

Any advise?

[S-Works]

Yes, with a type rating and unless he holds an ATPL exam pass he will need the HPA exams as well. He will need an IR as well.

[DCTCLM]

Thanks for the information.

[Duchess_Driver]

IR on a class 2 medical....????

Always assumed it was a class 1 t'was required. I know.... you shouldn't assume!

[mrmum]

Why would you need a class 1? The level of medical is related to the licence held and what you wish to do with it, ie remunerated or not. Although there's some extra or enhanced hearing tests required above that for a normal class 2.

[Duchess_Driver]

Like I said.... I assumed because a friend of mine wanted to do his IR on a PPL and went to the AMC who declined to issue a class 1 on the strength of him having dodgy mince pies.

No class 1 - no IR for him... assumed the two were connected.

[mrmum]

Okay, that's interesting. Do you know if your friend simply went to the AMC and asked for a class 1, which if not meeting the criteria for, they were correct to decline. You could argue that it's not the job of the AMC personnel to know what licence/rating/medical an individual has or needs, but simply to undertake the examination as requested.
LASORS 2010 E1 THE INSTRUMENT RATING (AEROPLANE)
Medical Fitness
An applicant for an IR(A) shall be medically fit in accordance with JAR-FCL 3.355(b).
Which says;
JAR–FCL 3.355 Hearing requirements
(b) If an instrument rating is to be added to the applicable licence(s), a hearing test with pure tone audiometry (see paragraph 1 Appendix 16 to Subpart C) is required at the first examination for the rating and shall be repeated every 5 years up to the 40th birthday and every 2 years thereafter.
From the CAA website, medical section (my red);
The medical requirements for a JAR pilot’s licence are contained in JAR-FCL 3 (Medical). There are two standards of JAA medical certificate:
JAR Class 1 for a professional flying licence
JAR Class 2 for a private flying licence
The basic hearing test used throughout JAR-FCL 3 is the ability to hear ‘conversational speech when tested with each ear at a distance of 2 metres from and with his back turned towards the AME’ (JAR-FCL 3.235 and 3.355). This test is done at every medical examination for both professional and private pilots. For professional pilots, and private pilots with an instrument rating, a further test called an audiogram is required
Looks like he could actually have an IR, or at least there's no medical reason not to, this all assumes of course he was honest in what he told you. Was it very long ago?

[DCTCLM]

That's an interesting point. He held a class 1 but had an OML restriction on that, though the CAA offered him initially a class 2 instead of renewing his class 1 with restriction. My understanding is you cannot put an OML restriction on a class 2 and suggested he may be able to fly single crew if he downgraded to a class 2 as offered. This though seems strange.

He is a wealthy businessman who would always fly with a safety pilot but wants to be able to fly legally 'single crew' in a King Air.

Just seems strange that he couldn't fly the King Air single crew on his restricted class 1, but it would appear he could fly on a class 2 single pilot.

[Duchess_Driver]

Not sure under what pretense he went to see AMC but I know it was fairly recent (6 months or so).

I'll see if I can find out more.

[lasseb]

Why do you need an IR to fly a king air? If you have the money, you may fly any single pilot approved plane on a ppl under VFR.
You can get an IR on a class-2 medical, with an aditional hearing test. But it's still a class 2.

[Contacttower]

It's probably a prerequisite of most type rating courses like the King Air to have an IR.

Anyway would be a bit pointless to have a King Air rating without an IR.

[mrmum]

Indeed, theoretically you probably don't "need" an IR to fly a Kingair on a purely being legal basis. However, a quick google finds all the TRTO's wanting an IR as a course entry requirement.
To operate a Kingair sensibly, not having to stay VFR everywhere, (although if you're in a part of Europe with reliable nice weather it might work), you're really going to want an IR.
In the UK, you might just get away with an IMCr, depending on which airfields and routes you wanted to use.

[Talkdownman]

To be economically efficient BE200 would need to cruise above FL195 ie. within Class C or better. May one operate IFR in Class C with an IMCr as in Class D?

He is a wealthy businessman who would always fly with a safety pilot but wants to be able to fly legally 'single crew' in a King Air. So what qualifications would the 'safety pilot' need and would he/she be a required member of the flight crew?
Or would he/she be a merely a passenger as in this AOC FODCOM (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD201021.pdf) and therefore not allowed to touch anything?

[DCTCLM]

Talkdownman,

As you say the publication refers to AOC. The situation I am looking into would be for him to complete a King Air rating and add an IR. He is aware he would have to do the relevant exams for the IR.

As to 'safety pilot' - the intention would be that he would fly it single crew with an experienced, rated pilot in the right seat for peace of mind. The P1 pilot would therefore want to be rated and fly SPA.

The way it seems to be going with EASA would mean they could not fly it MPA unless the P1 had a multi crew rating of some sort.

I am still unsure how his medical situation will work out though. I need to confirm that he can degrade his class 1 with OML restriction (two crew only) to a class 2 and then be able to fly single crew.

[mrmum]

May one operate IFR in Class C with an IMCr as in Class D?
No, IMCr is for class D-G airspace.

[lasseb]

There are some aircrafts that can be used both for singlepilot-ops, and for multipilot-ops. This requires that the plane can legally be flown single pilot. An operater (or private person) can then choose to get the plane approved for multi pilots as well.
The advantage here is that the co-pilot does not need an MCC to fly right seat. And when he has flown x amount of hours (I have forgotten the amount) he will automatically earn an MCC.
We did that in my company (AOC) with a Golden Eagle. The advantage is that if you cannot find a co-pilot, it can be flown by just 1 pilot from left seat. And if there was a co-pilot able to fly, he would earn hours, and eventually get an MCC.

But as far as I remember any multicrew stuff requires CPL/ATPL. It cannot be done on a PPL.
So in short a PPL, can fly any single-pilot approved aircraft with as many safety pilots he wants. But if he wants multicrew he needs a CPL...(and a lot of hours to fly left seat)

[Talkdownman]

As to 'safety pilot' - the intention would be that he would fly it single crew with an experienced, rated pilot in the right seat for peace of mind. The P1 pilot would therefore want to be rated and fly SPA.
If the so-called 'Safety Pilot' is a 'Safety Net' to 'catch all' shouldn't the so-called 'Safety Pilot' be PIC from the outset...?

[DCTCLM]

Talkdownman,

It's all about what the prospective owner wants to achieve. He currently has a PPL with MEP and a number of hours using light aircraft. There are two considerations. Firstly he wants to be able to fly the aircraft himself legally and competently, however he is aware that he currently has little experience in both the aircraft and the type of flying he will be looking to do. Secondly he would like to have his family and friends as passengers. Some of those, especially his wife, would like to have a qualified, experienced 'safety pilot' there in case any medical issue were to arise. He is 65 and I would agree this is prudent.

[Talkdownman]

he would like to have his family and friends as passengers. Some of those, especially his wife, would like to have a qualified, experienced 'safety pilot' there in case any medical issue were to arise
In that case, then, the type of aircraft is not relevant (unless he is flying is a single-seater). Does he take a 'safety pilot' when flying MEP + pax? Or when flying SEP, if rated? I am not questioning his prudence, I am just questioning the entire concept of 'safety pilot' as (in the UK) it is not an FCL requirement. I have encountered individuals who do not possess a valid medical yet believe they are entitled to fly PIC as long as they take along a fully qualified 'safety pilot'. I have also encountered private KingAir operators who require 'older' pilots to be accompanied by a lesser qualified 'safety pilot' 'just in case'. I wonder about the consequences if the qualified pilot 'keeled over'. If a 'safety pilot' is really required on an SPA BE200 why not operate the aircraft 'multi-crew' and be done with it?

[DCTCLM]

Considering two of your points. To fly MPA instead of SPA will in future require the PIC to hold a multi crew rating, if I am reading the new EASA legislation correctly. The intended PIC for this situation does not and is unlikely to ever hold a multi pilot rating as he has no commercial aspirations.

With regard to the medical situation. He took a class one medical but has since had a restriction placed on his medical (OML) - two crew only. He was though offered a class 2 medical instead, which would have no OML attached as they cannot be pegged to a class 2. That should allow him to fly SPA and achieve his ambition to complete the required training and skills test.

[lasseb]

If the plane is operated privately there are NO rules as to who goes in front right seat, as long as front left seat is occupied by a licensed pilot.

He can place his 2 year old daughter, or a 100.000 hours airline pilot in right seat. None of them can log any hours anyway. The person in the front right is considered a passenger and that's it.

So safety wise he could bring along an experienced pilot and place him/her in the right seat. That would be a very good idea indeed, and many privately owned company planes use this model. (owner flies / experienced pilot tags along as pax)

But - again - only the PIC can log hours. If he wants multicrew, that can be done, but requires CPL/ATPL.

[Talkdownman]

So the experienced pilot who tags along as pax is not a required member of the flight crew therefore is a passenger therefore may not accept remuneration as flight crew, FI or otherwise, therefore does not need a current licence and/or medical...?

[S-Works]

If a 'safety pilot' is really required on an SPA BE200 why not operate the aircraft 'multi-crew' and be done with it?

Because the 200 is a SPA so a second pilot is purely supernumerary and unable to log time. I doubt you are going to get someone to sign up to a job that they can't log time on.

Personally I don't see what the issue of someone wanting to fly an SPA taking along a safety pilot for comfort, company or whatever. If they are acting as a safety pilot then you would assume they can or would want to be able to actually fly the thing so would want to be rated.

[DCTCLM]

The 'safety pilot' is legally allowed to be there as a passenger and be paid for his/her services as long as they hold the relevant licence. Personally I would be very happy to sit there and get paid a daily rate for my time. I have no need to log the hours, and know a number of people who would be happy to operate on the same basis.

To point out also, you can operate the King Air as a multi crew operation. A number of UK companies do this and have the agreement signed off by the CAA. That used to be a simple issue with both pilots being rated and company SOP's used. Under EASA is appears that is not going to be so simple in the future, as it is expected that the P1 in such a multi crew operation will need a full ATPL, which will require a multi crew type rating and such type ATPL LPC completed. For the situation I am looking at, that would not work as the prospective P1 does not hold, nor wants a CPL/ATPL.

[3 Point]

Don't see why a pilot should need to hold a CPL/ATPL to have a type rating on a multi crew aeroplane. He/she would of course need to do MCC, the type rating course and probably additional theoretical exams which might make it more trouble than it's worth but not mipossible. I'm not fully up to speed with Part NCC so tere may be more to it but under JAR FCL it should be possible (he'd have to get a move on!!).

3 Point

[S-Works]

Coming back to this. I am pretty sure that the King Air is classed as a SP HPCA under EASA rules and reading into those rules it states that for someone to hold an SP HPCA type rating they must meet the requirements for a Multi Engine IR(A). There is also a requirement for supervised operating experience (SOE) for inexperienced pilots gaining their first SP HPCA type rating.

[Tinstaafl]

Contrast with the US: Get a PPL-MEL in anything eg Duchess + complex & high performance endorsements (often as a result of the MEL) and then *legally* you could go fly something like a Kingair 200. You must be familiar with normal & emergency procedures. A high altitude endorsement too although that may not be mandatory if you stay below FL250.

Good luck getting insurance coverage though...

[AdamFrisch]

...but then again there you don't need insurance either.

[lasseb]

3 Point ->
You need a CPL or ATPL to get an MCC.. It cannot be done on a PPL..
At least that's what people are telling me. I have yet to find the paragraph. Please post if you find it.

[BillieBob]

You need a CPL or ATPL to get an MCC.. It cannot be done on a PPL.Lasseb, you are misinformed - there are actually no pre-requisites in either JAR-FCL or Part-FCL for entry into MCC training. However, MCC training is intended to be either for students attending an ATP integrated course or for PPL/IR or CPL/IR holders who wish to obtain a first multi-pilot type rating. [JAR-FCL 1.261(d) refers]

You do need to have passed the ATPL exams to obtain a multi-pilot aeroplane type rating but you do not need to hold a professional licence.