Finals

[fujii]

I'm curious as to why the British often seem to refer to the last part of an approach as "finals" whereas the rest of the world only needs one per approach. Do you need a spare in case you break the first one or do you have one for each bounce you are anticipating?

[Whopity]

Then they are incorrect because it is FINAL CAP413 Chapter 4 Para 1.8 Position 4 Aircraft reports ‘Final’. Clearance to land issued here.

[2 sheds]

It's military sloppy speech - q.v. Cliff Richards and Deans Cross.

2 s

[Pilot DAR]

'aeros' for aerobatics....

Well... When I do "aeros", I'll do a bunch of loops, rolls and some chandelles in a given flight, so plural seems appropriate. I might do "aero" if after the first, my pax looks terrified, or green.

If I'm landing (the flight is going to terminate) I only do one "final". If more than one is required for that flight, I have really messed it up....

Now, that said, I do recall while taking helicopter instruction, and landing on the very small dolly, that if it looked messy, my instructor would ask me to back out and up, and do it again. Those, were "finals"!

[tmmorris]

It's definitely a militarism. I learned at, and flew from, civilian fields for the first four years of flying and always said 'final'. When I moved to flying from a military airfield I was ordered to say 'finals' and now find it slipping into use at civilian fields too.

Mind you, it doesn't quite mean the same thing in military circuits in the UK, of course, being called half way round the curved base turn.

Tim

[bookworm]

I might do "aero" if after the first, my pax looks terrified, or green.

You mean, when he's about to puke his gut out?

[mikehallam]

If it's good enough for the boys in blue (who after all saved our bacon) it's good enough for me. It's been 'FINALS' with me for over 40 years. This typical extract, copied from one of the 125+ pages on Prrune's Military Aircrew forum :"Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW11" shews plenty of precedent. Pedants beware of tampering with it.

I rest my case.

"....So we hogged the flarepath all the way round, and came round on finals with infinite care. With luck, you were "in the green", and carried on down with the flarepath tucked close on your left. Now the problem was when to "round out". You could estimate roughly where the ground was from the perspective of the flarepath, but there was a very useful trick. You watched the closest flare intently, until the point of light suddenly turned into a recognisable flame. That was it - you eased back on the stick and you wouldn't be far wrong (a variant of the blades-of-grass trick by day)...."

mike hallam

[Grob Queen]

Well, in the two years I've been training, i've always called "finals" half way around the curved base turn too....and never been taken to task for it...

...but thats probably because I fly with an RAF Flying Club, from an RAF airfield with RAF instructors and an RAF manned Tower ;)

...of course there could also be another discussion over does one call "Initial" or "Initials" when approaching the circuit through Initials... but thats for another thread... :)

GQ

[FullWings]

Having had some ex-military instructors when learning, I think I'd go along with the RAF theory. I use "final" myself but I think I understand "finals" too!

On a similar note, I've always wondered why airlines from North America refer to themselves in the plural: "Deltas", "Uniteds", "Air Canadas", etc.

Let's not even go near "Bovington"...

[Pitts2112]

Doesn't anybody use the search function anymore? There must be dozens of threads on this one.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Does anyone actually care about the plural s? :E

What really grips my tit$ is when lazy pilots call 'Long Finals' and drag themselves in from 20 miles away, and expect everyone to give way to them.

[tonker]

This has always drove me mad to be honest. After a short sharp conversation with a chap in the tower in Gamston that "finals" was fine, i thus spent the rest of the afternoon calling "downwinds" and "bases"

[Pom pom]

I've always used "finals" and understand it to be an abbreviation of "final checks". A similar usage as academic "final exams" - "finals" at university. Pilots made the necessary final checks in order to be able to land (or go-around) safely, and probably used the word to themselves as a prompt (as in the more modern "red, blue, three greens" - or "four" greens if it's a Harrier) before the use of radio. When RT came along, that point in the circuit just got named after the actions the pilot was performing at that time.

That's my understanding of it - and that's final! :E

[Tinstaafl]

Ha ha, Tonker! :ok:

[B2N2]

What really grips my tit$ is

Thank you, that picture just made my day.....:E

It's one of my pet pieves as far as RT is concerned;

Any of these jewels one more time and I won't be responsible for my actions:

"...... with you.." when calling ATC :ouch:
"ready for take-off " :ouch:
"ROGER THAT" :ouch:
"Finals" :ouch:
"crash-and-go" , "smash-and-go" "trash-and-go" or any other "funny" cliche that we've all heard a million times....:ouch:
".....uh...click-click.....uuuuuh....click-click.....uh" :ouch:

[Tinstaafl]

The 'with you' that is all but endemic in the US is annoying. So superfluous. They're not 'with' them in the sense of being in the same room, and that they're 'with' them on the frequency is self evident by their transmission.

[aluminium persuader]

Many moons ago, at the College of Knowledge, we were taught that it was "final" for final approach. Any mention of "finals", whether by pseudo-pilot or ATCO cadet, was met with a terse "...so just how many landings are you expecting to make off this approach?"!

ap:O

[Maoraigh1]

"...so just how many landings are you expecting to make off this approach?"!
So it's Final for a greaser, but Finals if you're going to bounce? :)

[aluminium persuader]

So it's Final for a greaser, but Finals if you're going to bounce?

You might say that. I couldn't possibly comment!
The good news is that you'll only get charged for the first landing. Subsequent landings are free!:E

[Crash one]

Finals = Final preparations (plural) to land.:ok:

[Jan Olieslagers]

Just one more UK peculiarity. Picturesque, and not really problematic.

[BackPacker]

Well, as you can be both on a left-hand final and a right-hand final simultaneously, the plural would make sense, not?

[Pilot DAR]

Finals = Final preparations (plural) to land

I can see the logic of that. But, is it the preparedness to land, from a checklist point of view, or the position in the circuit, which is being reported by the use of the term "finals"?

The 'with you' that is all but endemic in the US is annoying. So superfluous. They're not 'with' them in the sense of being in the same room, and that they're 'with' them on the frequency is self evident by their transmission.

I agree that this may not be a formally accepted phraseology, but yes, it sure is common here. I would expect that it is a contraction of: " with you" (I was just communicating with someone else, and was handed over to you, so here I am.). This would only be evident to the new controller [I]because of the transmission.

I have not flown enough in Europe to have formed an opinion, but in some airspace in North America, it's so busy, you're lucky to squeeze in "XXX Tower NNZ with you". That, as an initial contact, seems to be enough that the controller will call you back when they have time. In my opinion, acknowledging the entry of an aircraft into the airspace might not be as urgent as giving a landing clearance or such, and therefore all the supplementary details can wait until the controller is ready to receive them.

For other airspace I enter, I know that the controller is so bored, I entertain myself by giving very detailed initial contacts with all the appropriate information provided. I know he was waiting pen in hand for someone to call in!

Just my take on it.....

[Shoestring Flyer]

It is, Final to land or Final, definitely not Finals!....just so annoying to hear it.

Thread drift but another word that seems to now have travelled the atlantic is 'gotten'...There is no such word in the English language as 'gotten'...grrr!

[BackPacker]

XXX Tower NNZ with you

I think there's a hidden message here as well. A call "XXX Tower NNZ with you", "XXX Center NNZ FL300 inbound MASTI", "XXX Tower NNZ established localizer 24" or something along those lines, also conveys the message that a normal, expected handover from another frequency is in progress. The controller may even have the flight strip in front of him already. He knows that the pilot will simply continue doing whatever the previous controller cleared him to do and there's no rush to acknowledge his presence, issue instructions, clearances or whatever.

In contrast, "XXX Tower NNZ" typically seems to mean "I want to talk to you because I've got a complicated request that I don't want to transmit in my initial call". So it may prompt the tower to get back to you earlier than in the previous case. After which you've got to tell the controller that you've got nothing to tell or ask them.

[tmmorris]

It seems logical that the first and last circuit calls are 'initials' and 'finals'.

Tim

[stiknruda]

Initials

For me that is the call that me formation leader gives when he has taken me to the place where I am on my initial point for final to land. We may wazz around doing a run and break but in reality it is probably my first opportunity to orientate myself with the ground features and runway....

up to that point my entire focus has been keeping station with Lead....

Lead needs good situational awareness - for if he experiences engine failure, I do expect him to tell me where we are before he plummets towards terra firma. I'd expect us to be on or near track but have no idea where we are!!

Stik

[jxk]

It is, Final to land or Final, definitely not Finals!....just so annoying to hear it.Calm down dear - it's only a word!

[Tinstaafl]

You mean 'It's only a words'?

[Crash one]

Not even that, ir's only an s

[Pilot.Lyons]

I agree with shoestringer

[Pilot.Lyons]

Sorry shoe string flyer! Hehe looked like i was being lazy a mixing words to create my own!

Final to land.... I only need one attempt ;)

[douglasheld]

This is in English, the degentive case which is used in informal language to assign some diminuation or familiarity to a thing. I'm an American in the UK and I find this used more often here than in the US.

Examples:
Tesco -> Tescos
Holiday -> hols
Final -> finals

[goldeneaglepilot]

Perhaps the plural is used due to the call for "short finals" or long "finals" It seems to imply a two stage distance based call on final approach.

Often the call gets made as "finals full stop" or "finals to roll" or finals touch and go" At least it leaves aircraft on base leg an idea of what your doing.

To throw more into the pot you will also hear people add the words "three greens" into the final's call to demonstrate that they have checked the gear is down and showing locked on a retractable.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Examples:
Tesco -> Tescos
Holiday -> hols
Final -> finals
Yes well, those are three completely different cases, aren't they:

(1) It's "Tesco's", not "Tescos", and it's short for "Tesco's shop". Now there isn't a Mr Tesco, but the usage is the same as saying "Blogg's" to be short for "Mr Blogg's shop".

(2) "Hols" is short for "holidays", no problem there.

(3) "Finals" is just wrong. (And I'm not sure I've ever noticed hearing it on the radio, actually.)

[Pilot.Lyons]

Im with wombat on this one

[CharlieDeltaUK]

Simples...

[rans6andrew]

why is this topic dragging on so?

Aviation Law has it sorted, page 5 of my Trevor Thom, "An aircraft on final approach (Yes, final approach, SINGULAR) has right of way over others in flight or on the surface.

Or, as my flying instructor would put it, "what is that finals boll**ks?, it's final, short for final approach, how can that be plural?"

Rans6....

[mikehallam]

Well Ran6andrew you've almost got me beat but...........

Precedence and quantity from at least WWII is for the 's'.

mike hallam.

p.s don't forget to read RanMail !

[rans6andrew]

Rasmail, never miss it:ok:

[rans6andrew]

Rasmail, never miss it! :ok:

[stickandrudderman]

Personally, I don't give a ****z!

[Pilot.Lyons]

Hahaha :D

:D:D

[funfly]

A lot of poor airmanship here.
There are three important and well understood parts of a circuit.
Downwind
Base
Final
The R/T is to tell the person controlling you (and everyone else who is listening) which bit you are on i.e. just where you are in relation to the circuit and airfield.
That's it.