Learning curve post PPL

[CharlieDeltaUK]

I'm interested to hear about your learning experiences in the period immediately after you got your PPL.

I've been de-briefing myself after each trip to consider things I did wrong that I don't want to repeat. Haven't had any real nasties I'm pleased to say, although I guess every time I get something wrong it's only luck that prevented it being more unfortunate. In those 0 to 30 hours (say) post PPL, how often did you find yourself making errors that made you feel like you should still be a student?

I seem to find at least one thing per flight which makes me feel like I must do better. Is it the same for everyone?

[peterh337]

One minor thing per flight is pretty normal, I would say :)

[PompeyPaul]

I still make mistakes 150 hours & an IMC in to post PPL. If you are not a pro then you probably always will make some sort of mistake each flight. The funny thing is I've never had a flight where everything was the same as another flight. The wind, the squawk, the route, the wx, the ATCO it's ALWAYS different in some way.

[Crash one]

Twas for me, numerous little things, forget take off flap, out of trim, twice left pitot cover on & didn't notice till I was over the barley at 200ft. Very hot day, full tanks uphill take off no wind, trees very close!! Got a bit of instrument instruction once. Base leg turn he asked "Do you normally approach at this height?" Closed the throttle on me & asked "Are we going to make it?" "No, were in the barley". I learned a lot fairly quickly. I think the training kicks in with important stuff.

[foxmoth]

This is why many Instructors/Examiners will say on a student qualifying "Now you start learning"!:ok:

[RedsBluesGreens]

Joined downwind the wrong way once. Couldn't work out why the heading on the DI was the same as that of the runway!

Got lost right on the edge of the Heathrow TMA. Called up 121.5 and they were very helpful.

We've all had lucky escapes.

The thing is not making those mistakes but knowing how to avoid making them and knowing how to get out of them if things do go awry. That's what PPL training is all about.

[thing]

I learn something every flight. I've done all of the above in terms of mistakes and have it drilled into my head not to get complacent. Probably the worst thing I've done is try and land on a short grass strip when I was sunburned, dehydrated and dog tired, but being the confident 'I can do that' type I overstretched myself. I managed it by the grace of God but gave myself a a good scare.

What I do is always put the GPS on, sometimes I switch it on and just leave it in it's case if it's a run I can do blindfolded. I download the log, run it on Google Earth and see how accurate my flying was.

The other thing I do is make each flight mean something, start collecting airfields or do some extra training in something that interests you. I have just over 100 hours and have a night qual, IMCR and about 20 airfields in the logbook. Don't just bore holes in the sky. If you look at one of the airshow sites there are always fly ins or air displays to go to. I plan these events several months in advance, so I have the a/c booked, the plates copied, any landing slots booked and the route planned way before I go. (I had the first slot booked at Duxford last weekend..:)).

So far I have 17 fly ins, interesting grass strips and museum visits planned up until September. In between that I do some instrument approaches and cct bash about once a month just to keep my hand in on flapless, ILS, NDB etc. Planning stuff works for me, I enjoy it for one thing, some folk might just like to turn up and thrash around which is fair enough but I think being proactive will keep your interest and your skill levels up.

[Fuji Abound]

Its not what you do wrong but how serious are the wrong doings.

We learn a host of things that dont really matter and a few that are critical. The key is distguishing between the two and really admonishing yourself when you get the critical ones wrong.

On most aircraft there arent too many critical actions.

[AdamFrisch]

Happens on every flight. Forget to turn booster pumps off, forget to set DG, forget to turn off landing lights etc, etc. Last time I flew for 15mins before I remembered to raise the flap... and I've flown 50nm once without raising them and it was only when I was going to lower first stage of flap in the circuit I realised they were already down! I did remember thinking the airspeed in cruise was low...;)

I use checklists for start, runup and before takeoff, but not in the air. I suppose I should, but I don't think it's all that safe in a high traffic environment. That said, I rarely forget the before landing stuff (as it's so simple on mine), it's always the cleanup stuff after takeoff I botch. I should use my after start checklist more, really. There's no excuse.

[thing]

I've just reminded myself that I forgot to set a new QNH on my last flight. Got distracted talking to a passenger even though I'd read back the QNH and written it down.

[Fuji Abound]

Adamfrisch

Forgetting the flaps is a big worry. We should reasonably often be reviewing the performance of the aircraft against the power setting as it can be an early sign of problems. As you indicated the expected performance would be well adrift with the flaps down. Sorry mate but this type of error needs to be avoided and should be avoidable because it is a mistake that will show up in other ways.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I learn something every flight.
Yes - waste of money otherwise!

If after a flight I don't know what I learned from that one then I start worrying about what I missed, ie got wrong and didn't even notice!

[AdamFrisch]

Fuji - my 32.000hr instrument instructor also forgets the flaps all the time, so I'm in good company;)

[Obi_Wan]

CharlieDelta, at least you're spotting the areas for improvement and doing something about it - that attitude will keep you improving, and hopefully keep you flying for a long time.

Someone once said "You're always a student in an aeroplane"

[Fuji Abound]

Adam - joking aside I would look for another instructor - I dont really care how many hours he has (or hasnt) there are some fundamentals where it is troubling to see a pilot make certain mistakes.

OK, so perhaps you forget to turn on the strobes before departure - you missed the item on the checklist and it happens, there are potentially no catch points during the flight that would alert you to the "problem".

However if you leave the flaps down there should be a number of indications that the aircraft is no performing as it should. Firstly the speed will be way adrift from the power setting, secondly the handling characteristics and probably the pitch angle will be different and thirdly if you ever carry out a visual check of the wings you cant help but notice. Now that is a whole load of things to ignore, and more to the point a whole load of things to be ignorable. The aircraft will tell you that all is not well if nothing else. I dont mean to be harsh, but if you ignore all of these signs it suggests that you are not yet familiar with the aircraft, or its performance or how it should behave; its a bigger concern because performance issues of this sort often occur for other reasons and therefore are indicative of more serious problems.

Now I am not suggesting that we havent all "forgotten" to retrack the flaps at the appropriate point after departure - that is one thing, but once settled in the crusie for any time, if you havent identified the issues I have suggested and at the very least connected the lack of performance with the flaps still be deployed you should be concerned.

Probably like the rest of us I have done it but didnt find myself wondering why the aircraft had accelerated in the cruise!

[Captain Kirk]

The day you think you have nothing more to learn you should stop flying - because you are either:

1. Perfect, so you might as well retire at the top of your game rather than risk going downhill.

or...

2. Complacent, and therefore a liability!

There's always something you can improve on. Don't just acknowledge mistakes though - develop a plan, strategy, check-list or procedure that will help you to eliminate them from your next trip. If you make the same mistakes twice - shame on you.

Acknowledge your successes too - and, as above, figure out what contributed to the good sorties, or aspects of it, so that you can repeat that success reliably.

[AdamFrisch]

Fuji - not necessarily.

I can't see the flaps from the cockpit. And this was a very turbulent day and there was no way of getting reliable airspeeds or a tactile feel for how she flew. Also, my flaps don't have settings - it's one continuous application and you set them by a gage visually and it can be hard to see if they're deployed. And the reason you don't leave the flap actuator in the UP position (which would have solved the problem) is that if you get a hydraulic leak, that will drain the system (which controls brakes and everything). So you go back to NEUTRAL after every application.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Have made two 'biggies' -

1) A few hours after passing PPL, I had taken off from 09 (the more unusual in the UK), then landed on 27 (RWY in use was still 10) about an hour later, even making the call "Final 09"! The disturbing thing for me was it was a delayed understanding - nobody else at the airfield noticed it, and it was only about 45 mins later in the car I realised...

2) Whilst working in my first commercial flying job, I succumbed to commercial pressure big time and elected to perform a completely non standard takeoff with a 20 kt X-Wind, uphill, because the trees at that end were not as tall (about 30 feet, compared to about 80 feet). The performance figures for nil wind and level grass and one stage of flap were only about 50 metres short of what I actually had UNTIL the trees. So I decided to go full power with no flap, then dropped about two stages a few seconds before the fence... It actually produced one of the most impressive climb rates I'd ever seen from that aircraft, but yes, what if the flap motor was burnt out, what if for some reason only one side had deployed, etc... We wouldn't have made it out if either of those had occurred.

First example was avoidable, but I learnt from it. Second example was inexcusable, and I definitely learnt from it...

[Captain Kirk]

Adam - sounds like you need a better procedure... write 'Flaps' on your kneeboard and then get in the habit of crossing it out when they come up, take your sunglasses off whenever the flaps are down, sit on your pencil (ooh er!) when they are down - the options are only limited by your imagination but the point is that what you are doing up until now has not been working and you have not thought to adopt a different practice.

Admitting mistakes does not mean that we should accept mistakes. Just my suggestion.

[AdamFrisch]

Kirk - with all due respect, this thread was simply a way to say to the OP that we all make mistakes and that it's human to do so and it was in that spirit that I shared this information - to illustrate that point. Therefore it's so very, very PPrune-ish that this, of course, has to turn into an admonishing of my procedures and a couple of lectures to boot. What would the use be in sharing all the hundreds of times my procedure works exactly as designed?

[Captain Kirk]

Adam - no disrespect intended and I would not presume to judge your wider abilities. However, I think that CDUK demonstrates a laudable desire to learn from his mistakes, not simply list them - although there is no doubt some solace is to be found in realising that he is not alone!

My comments are aimed at encouraging the broad cadre of inexperienced aviators to adopt the good habit of debriefing themselves - critically but constructively - and establishing the mindset of not accepting less than their best. I doubt you would disagree with that.

As to your own specific experiences - I just thought a few ideas to overcome what you describe as being a particulary insidious circumstance with your own ac type (cannot see flaps, performance masking configuration, poor ergonomics, etc) might be helpful. Ultimately, it will not matter how many perfect procedures you have behind you if you get caught out by having the flaps in the wrong position at a critical moment! I am sure that you are not complacent but your comment 'it's ok because my instructor does it too' appears complacent, which, you must surely agree, is not a message that should be promoted among less experienced aviators. Credit where it is due for sharing your experiences of course.

Just trying to help - and I am certainly not a perfect aviator!

;)

[peterh337]

In 2004, I was flying from Wangen Lachen (LSPV, Switzerland) to Corfu (LGKR Greece), VFR.

I had to climb out OCAS to FL129, in a small triangle of airspace, in an orbit all the way up, to cross the Alps. (Zurich would not allow me into Class C, base FL130).

I got to about FL100 and the thing would not climb any more. No icing, flaps away... Had a look around... the gear was still down :ugh:

It was the result of a stressful departure situation, where I could not find anybody to pay the fees to, could not find anybody to operate the avgas pump, had the wrong currency on me, could not get the laptop fax to work to send the PNR Customs notification (LSPV has "Exit Customs" only) so had to use some fallback method for that (early days of electronics comms back then).

Once or twice in 10 years I left the key in the mags, in the ON position, during refuelling, which is really stupid.

As Fuji says, not many things (in fixed wing ops) are actually critical. A high perf airplane also helps.

[Fuji Abound]

Adam

Frankly that is not fair!

You said:


and I've flown 50nm once without raising them and it was only when I was
going to lower first stage of flap in the circuit I realised they were already
down! I did remember thinking the airspeed in cruise was low


followed by:

Fuji - my 32.000hr instrument instructor also forgets the flaps all the time,

I think you will find I have very little history of "admonishing" people's piloting skills. I contributed orginally to this thread by pointing out that most "errors" dont matter a great deal and to boot often there are few ways of traping some errors if they are "missed". I then went on to say that on the other hand there are some errors that are safety critical and however much we may all miss these as well, its dangerous and not something of which to be proud. You happened to give the example of flaps and I agreed it is something we have all done. In itself it is unlikely to be an issue.

However for the reasons I gave in most cases performance and handling issues should identify the "problem" unless these are also ignored. Clearly you did ignore the airspeed was low in the cruise but decided for whatever reason not to investigate further. Had you done so your investigations might have revealed a more serious problem that the flaps or the gear being down.

So the only reason I drew attention to your post was not to admonish you but to point out that there could be a worthwhile lesson to take if not helpful to you of benefit to others. In short if the aircraft is not performing as it should it is well worth your while investigating why. Something is wrong!

Mate, I have made more than my fair share of "errors" and happily nearly killed myself twice on the present count due to my own stupidity.

I recall some fun and games I had once with the governor. The performance in the cruise was less than sprightly and yet I ignored the signs - and they were there. I then chose to carry out a T and G and you have guessed it the prop. didnt go fully fine and I was lucky to make it off the runway. The engineers claimed they had fixed the problem and the chief engineer even agreed to accompany me on the "test" flight. The prop still didnt go fully fine and I had enough reasons to suspect it wouldnt. We staggered into the air, barely climed to half circuit height and recovered quickly and a little worse for wear to the engineers' hangars. I learnt some good lessons. I also learnt that ultimately it doesnt matter if the engineer says its good to go, or the instructor says "I do that all the time" which was another reason I commented on your post.

So please forgive me but my posts were well meant. ;)