PPL hour breakdown [Archive]

Genghis the Engineer

9th Apr 2012, 19:24

Err, no.

You can buy the book, and most students also pay by the hour - don't pay up front, it's an unnecessary risk on numerous levels. The marginal saving is not worth the risk of losing that money: flying schools go bust with annoying regularity and you don't want them owing you money when you. I say again pay as you go!!!.

Ask the school for a copy of the syllabus they're using and pay for it - expect to pay about £15. If they don't use a specific document - there's the AOPA/Pooleys book, Jeremy Pratt's book, Trevor Thom's book, PPLme, .... All perfectly good books, and all saying roughly the same things, so pick one you like.

4 un-logged hours, as I'm sure you really know, is very little although it's hopefully helped you to feel comfortable in the air. With a proper instructor you will be starting at square 1 and following the syllabus in full, because they daren't risk missing anything out. But, you will find as you review your logbook you'll sometimes do an exercise in the syllabus over several hours, and other times do several exercises in one hour. It really ain't linear.

If you are doing the NPPL(SSEA), the syllabus here (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/PDFs/Syllabus/NPPL%20Syllabus.pdf) will give you a very good idea, or if the NPPL(M), the document here (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/PDFs/Syllabus/NPPL%20Microlight%20Syllabus.pdf); for the PPL(SEP), here (http://www.vluchtvoorbereiding.nl/documenten/jarsyllabus.pdf). But in all cases the books and DVDs that are available are likely to be much more informative than the basic lists in the published syllabi.

G

stickandrudderman

9th Apr 2012, 19:25

I'm assuming I'll have to pay the £2000 to receive any books then, sucks

ABSOLUTELY NOT!
you can buy the books readily and cheaply on ebay (other internet auction sites are available) or ask on here or over on the Flyer forum and someone might be prepared to donate/sell theirs. You can then study them at home at your leisure.

Do a search on here and you'll find plenty of advice about paying for lessons up front, most of which advises against it, my own included.

Instead of taking the bar job, see if you can find a position at an airfield where your learning curve will be accellerated.

(I see that it took me 5 minutes to type my response......!)

'India-Mike

9th Apr 2012, 19:27

Paying by installments sounds rather like paying "up front" or in advance for lessons. That normally starts alarm bells ringing around these forums and whilst it might seem like "thread creep" is probably an issue that is more important for you to resolve than your initial question.

Apart from that Genghis is quite right....it takes what it takes and that depends on you. And Whopity has given you source material for attempting to calculate the spend versus hours relationship that you're looking for. A very very very rough guide based on my limited experience as an FI is 15 trips for the first 10 hours for a good student to get towards solo standard.

Good luck.

The500man

9th Apr 2012, 19:31

Flight schools don't usually include books and equipment in their PPL course prices. You will normally need to buy all that stuff yourself. Ask your school for a list of recommended equipment. They should be able to tell you the best stuff to get, and it will most likely include the Air Pilot's Manuals or the AFE equivalent (check Whopity's links).

Are you flying at EFG?

EDIT: It's always amazes me how people manage to reply so quickly on pprune!

Dan the weegie

9th Apr 2012, 19:41

Sounds like you're trying to budget for finishing the course.

Each lesson takes as long as it takes Even if you do it perfectly there will be lots of reasons it takes longer or shorter than 1 hr. For instance, weather, traffic, type of aircraft. It's just not something any flying instructor can tell you.

Either way the course takes a minimum of 45 hours - this is easily achievable for motivated people in their early 20s. more if you're lazy and it often takes more once you get past 30. so even if you've finished the whole course by hour 30 (which you wont) you still have 15 hours of flying to do, so how longer each lesson takes is totally IRRELEVANT!
Reading the books on the other hand will save you money, if you don't read the books it will often take you past 45 hours.

Beyond that, paying £2000 in installments to get a big discount sounds like a pile of shate, there are discounts for paying for 10 hours at a time but only ever do so with a credit card, you never know when a school will go bust and it happens lots. All the more important if you're on a budget. Suggest finding another school to be honest, where are you training?

EGKB

9th Apr 2012, 19:46

Yes I'm flying at EFG

Thanks for all the advice guys, it just sounded a bit like it was either pay up-front for 1/4 of the course or pay pay as you go and spend much more £££

And no worries guys, I'll ask them everything I need!!!! :)

Dan the weegie

9th Apr 2012, 19:53

The more they push pay up front the more likely it is that things are not right financially. If they offer it and offer a discount it's normally because it's demanded by customers, it was in the case of my school.

It shouldn't be significantly cheaper.

If I was you I'd wait and save up :)

foxmoth

9th Apr 2012, 20:24

Paying up front is fine if you do one thing - pay by credit card, then the credit card company is liable.
As said, any good instructor will start you at EoC (i) and take you through ALL the exercises, BUT if the hours you have unlogged have been done sensibly then you should work through the first few exercises pretty quickly, conversely, these could have taught you some things incorrectly and it might take longer.

A "standard" progress might be -
Trial lesson (30 mins) EoC(i);
Lesson 2 (this and all other lessons 1Hr) - EoC(ii), intro to S&L (i);
Lesson 3 S&L(i) intro to Climbing and descending,
Lesson 4 Climbing & Descending, S&L(ii);
Lesson 5 Medium Level turns.
But as pointed out, your progress could be faster or slower than this depending on ability and other factors, and elements might be introduced at differing phases for reasons of progress/airspace/weather so this is a VERY general guide, and of course you would probably not be doing the trial (30min) lesson so that straight away changes the dynamics.

Weirdfish

9th Apr 2012, 20:38

Another thing to remember is that lessons do not always happen in the order of the book. I was supposed to be getting stuck into stall work two lessons ago but cloud put paid to that. Rather than just cancel, we did something we could do given the weather at the time.

Also, don't pay up front :)

thing

9th Apr 2012, 22:12

Did anyone mention not paying up front? Also some good points about just saving up and thrashing it to death. If you can only afford a lesson now and again it will take you longer.

Whopity

10th Apr 2012, 07:39

I already have 4 un-logged hours, 3 in a C152, and 1 hour in a grob tutor. Why can't you log them? If they were flown with an instructor they can be logged, if not, they were probably passenger time.

If you pay up front, you are financing someone else's flying, who will finance yours? A discount is usually a sign of a cash flow problem, a bit like firms selling off stock cheap!

EGKB

10th Apr 2012, 08:35

I didn't have a log book, and they're scattered over 2/3 years. I'm only 17. I'll purchase all needed equipment at biggin hill on the coming saturday for my next lesson.

How does the log book work, you do an hour and then I assume you get it signed off by the school/instructor?

bingofuel

10th Apr 2012, 08:46

Can I suggest you visit the club you want to learn at, sit down with an instructor and ask him or her to explain the whole process to you.
If they are not prepared to spend some time with a potential new student, who is intending to spend a lot of money with them, then go to another club or school until you find one that will.
Remember you are the customer, and free to choose where you spend your money.

Oh and you do not need to buy all the books etc at the start, all you really
need for the first few hours is a logbook, checklist, the books covering the flying exercises and principles of flight.

Grob Queen

10th Apr 2012, 10:12

As others have said, although there is technically a set lesson pattern, I think it can be interpreted to how the club/school wishes to teach. This is certainly the case in my club and we have extra training thrown in.

As to the number of hours, that again depends on your ability, how long a break you have inbetween each lesson and how your instructor rates your progress. Again, wiser heads than I have said here that you will not progress until you have reached a required standard in one area (and don't I know it! :rolleyes:).

Be aware also (and I don't think its been mentioned here yet) that once you have taken your first ground exam, the clock starts ticking. You have 18 months then to complete your ground exams and I believe a further year to complete your skills test (I sit to be corrected on that but I think I am correct).

So have a chat with a club and don't start with any preconceived ideas as they are bound to be shattered within the first few lessons! I've enjoyed my training much more now I have no timescales. :)

Good luck!

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 10:14

I agree absolutely - buy what the school recommend in the right order, and get this briefing on how things work from your instructor.

However, just on a few points:

- If you are likely to try and go "pro" get a professional flying logbook now, rather than one of the small PPL types. The extra few quid is not much in the scheme of things but will make life much easier later.

- Normally flights are signed off by the school at the end of a course, rather than per flight.

- Most logbooks record brakes-off to brakes-on, and it is your responsibility to maintain this record. Many of us nowadays keep an electronic backup as well (there are several commercial products, or you can create your own in something like MS-Excel: there are numerous Excel logbooks floating around the web as well if you don't want to write your own).

- If you want a lengthy briefing from your instructor, either book a slot, or pick a miserable-weather-day when he can't fly anyhow.

G

Whopity

10th Apr 2012, 10:50

You have 18 months then to complete your ground exams and I believe a further year to complete your skills test (I sit to be corrected on that but I think I am correct).No, 24 months after passing the last exam, to complete the flying and apply for a licence. The exam format will have to change a little (subjects combined) to meet the EASA regulations.

Grob Queen

10th Apr 2012, 11:10

Thanks for your correction Whopity, I knew I would probably have it wrong :)

It sounds like EASA may actually help us Studes then!

EGKB

10th Apr 2012, 17:23

Brakes of to brakes on?

Pretty self-explanatory, but I thought it was logged in hours, what if I have ten 1 hour lessons, but each lesson goes over by 15 minutes, that's 2 and a half hours not logged?

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 17:35

Brakes off to brakes on.

If it goes over by 15 minutes, you log 1:15. If you land five minutes early, you log 0:55. (Opinions differ as to exactly how, most commonly to the nearest five minutes, next most common is "decimal time" so to the nearest six minutes: e.g. 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc., a few people - mostly glider pilots log to the nearest minute).

And, most places, they'll charge you for that as well. Expect to pay for what you actually fly, not what you book. If you will have trouble paying for over the booked 60 minutes, make sure that your instructor knows that in advance.

You really need to talk to your flying instructor more!

G

(Nowadays I log to the nearest minute, but managed the first 22 years of my flying career logging to the nearest five minutes quite happily.)

Gertrude the Wombat

10th Apr 2012, 17:45

(Nowadays I log to the nearest minute, but managed the first 22 years of my flying career logging to the nearest five minutes quite happily.)
I log as per invoice. So having done some renting at 5 minute granularity and some at 0.1 hour granularity I've got some tedious odd minutes.

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 19:51

I log as per invoice. So having done some renting at 5 minute granularity and some at 0.1 hour granularity I've got some tedious odd minutes.

Bit of a bugger if you get invoiced by tacho, you are doing yourself out of a lot of hours.

Ever tried writing the actual times down on your PLOG? I find it works quite well as a system.

G

EGKB

10th Apr 2012, 20:37

So I guess if you book an hour, but come back in 55 minutes. It's YOUR fault for not maximizing the other 5 minutes, or does it get carried over?

Aha, well I've only met him once, I have loads of questions this saturday coming!

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 20:50

You and your instructor use the time required for the lesson. Your school will charge you for the time spent.

Sometimes 20 minutes is enough for a lesson, sometimes 90 minutes or even slightly longer is more appropriate. It's just that for most things, about an hour, is about right.

The only thing that is YOUR fault is failing to pay enough attention to the lesson execution or preparation. I suspect that you may have that problem.

G

foxmoth

10th Apr 2012, 20:54

So I guess if you book an hour, but come back in 55 minutes. It's YOUR fault for not maximizing the other 5 minutes, or does it get carried over?

No, this will be governed more by what happens on the lesson, it may be that an extra 5 mins will not achieve much,and worth finishing early to save the cash or that an extra 5 minutes will be worth doing to finish off what is going on in the lesson, it could also be that traffic at the airfield causes you to land 5 minutes or so over. Just work on the basis that the lessons will be around an hour initially and you will pay for what you actually fly, it could even be that lessons end up at 45 mins or less or over 1:15, though either would be unusual apart from the nav bits near the end.

Grob Queen

10th Apr 2012, 21:35

Of course you have to take into account of the time which ATC may make you hold and line up and wait before take off and how busy the circuit is on your return...

..then once you get onto navexes, the time is much longer. On Saturday I arrived at the Club at 1300, and with flight planning, aircraft checks and briefing, off blocks at 1630, on blocks at 1815...then with refuelling the aircraft, putting her in the hangar, debrief, general chat with my instructor (as he's a friend) and locking up...I didn't leave the airfield until about 1945.

So expect to spend a lot of time at the Club. Personally I love it. The more you're around the club, the more integrated you get and the more you learn from other members :ok:

Nibbler

10th Apr 2012, 22:22

EGKB couple of things that may help

Take your time to enjoy and to allow yourself to absorb the knowledge. I did my PPL over a short period of time (just 6 months) in the UK and found that I had forgotten quite a bit when I came to the MEP and IMC. There is a big difference between learning something to pass a test and really understanding it.

Here is a link to some half price PPL books if you want to save a bit of cash. Discount Books | Discounted Items | Airtime Pilots Shop (http://airtimepilotshop.co.uk/shop/discount-books.html?redirected=1)

Good luck

Piper.Classique

11th Apr 2012, 07:28

Just one small point on the books and such. Nav, met, principles of flight don't really go out of date. Air law does, so buy this one new, latest edition.

For some really good stuff FREE google Pelican's Perch. Consider finding some information by yourself as a useful exercise that will save long term reliance on Pprune, helpful though the members are. There are still public libraries in UK, feel free to study there as well if you have problems finding a quiet time at home. You can dowload stuff from t'internet to a mobile device as well, instapaper is useful to get just the info (text and drawings) without the arty web page stuff, and you can then read on your kindle or ipad or whatever offline.

It is Ok to have more knowledge than the minimum required for the test, but try not to get bogged down in the minute detail on stuff like well, air law. Extra knowledge on met however may one day save you getting badly scared.

What I am trying to say is organise your priorities sensibly, study at home, and use that valuable resource known as a flying instructor. Many of the people here are instructors but you will also get less knowledgeable people posting. Use common sense when sorting out the information you get. :ok:

Oh, and did anyone mention not to pay up front?

FirstOfficer

11th Apr 2012, 07:59

I emphasize what others have stated, develop a good relationship with your instructor. Briefings, de-briefings, e-mails etc... Communication throughout your training is very important, no lesson will always be the same because of a combination of factors, I recently e-mailed mine and ask for a lesson plan just to have an idea and then I study the relevant content within the book and other resources.

Lesson preparation is essential it helps to digest all the information within the book and then actioned in practical terms during the flying lessons.

I am lucky that my instructor is at the club purely for instruction purposes and not simply there to build hours and then jump to the airlines. He likes his PPL instruction and his aerobatics. :ooh:

Weirdfish

11th Apr 2012, 11:58

EGKB, I get the feeling from your posts that you are working on the assumption that learning to fly takes a minimum of 45 lessons rather than the actual case of it takes a minimum of 45 hours of flying. Of all the 'hour' lessons I've had I don't think any of them have been an hour on the dot. You pay for the time that you fly (and more than likely the landing fees)

Lets say you are a natural born flyer and ace every skill, you still need a minimum of 45hrs in your log so it doesnt matter if your lessons last 55mins or 70mins, its what you learn in any given time and what the total flying time adds up too that matters.

You'll find the first few lessons will follow a pattern to give you the basic understanding execution of various skills and manoeuvres but they are just that, basic understanding and execution. Once the instructor feels you have a grasp of what is required, he'll move on but you'll still be doing those things in subsequent lessons.

:)

EGKB

11th Apr 2012, 18:00

Weirdfish, I completely understand.

I know you have to put time, money and effort into it. It's just the money and how it works.

Why should I pay for one hour when I only fly 50 minutes? Yet if I fly 1 hour 10 minutes I owe them 10minutes extra? I don't mind but is this the situation I'm still un-clear

Genghis the Engineer

11th Apr 2012, 18:13

Don't be a pillock. Three people have told you clearly that flying schools charge you for the time you fly.

G

EGKB

11th Apr 2012, 18:33

Ok thanks, I prefer directness. You pay for the time you fly. Thanks again.

Weirdfish

11th Apr 2012, 18:54

To be totally clear you'll pay for the time you spend flying NOT a set charge per session.

What does concern me is you seem very much focused on the cost, which is understandable but you need to be clear that if you think you can just afford what the school/club are advertising, then you possibly can't afford it. I appologise that that sounds presumptuous but unless you do a residential intensive 24/7 course it's highly unlikely you'll be on your skills test on hour 45. Landing fees may not be included and are not an insignificant cost, I'm learning out of Southend so believe me I know that first hand:eek:.

The books and stuff mount up and you'll soon be wanting your own headset. Add to that travel costs and it's a damn expensive hobby.

As long as you're aware of the extras that don't tend to be shown near the headline price of the PPL then you won't be shocked, but don't get confused on how lessons are charged.

Grob Queen

11th Apr 2012, 19:37

I second Wierdfish's statement about the "extras". Once you get onto Navigation you will need the whizz wheel, nav protractor and ruler etc etc...not forgetting keeping your charts updated annually (this is a legal requirement), exam fees...

Then what do you want to do afterwards? IMC (or whatever it will be) rating, night rating, aeros qualification? Formation flying?

..as others have said...its an expensive hobby...especially if you're going to throw yourself into it and do it properly (the only way to approach ones PPL training IMHO!!) ;)

BackPacker

11th Apr 2012, 20:36

You pay for the time you fly.

Well, that might or might not be entirely true, depending on the exact setup of the school/club.

When I learned to fly in Florida the lessons were scheduled in two-hour blocks. In such a two-hour block you would fly approximately one hour, and had another hour with the instructor for pre- and post flight briefings, preflight and so forth. Once I got to the x-country stage, the blocks became progressively larger of course. The total charge (airplane plus instructor) was based on hobbs time, so if we flew only 54 minutes, the hobbs would read 0.9 and I paid for 0.9 hours. Additionally, there was a set charge per hour one-on-one groundschool if you needed that.

At the club where I now fly we have freelance instructors. Lessons are again scheduled in two-hours blocks (by default, but that can be changed if required). The instructor is paid a fixed amount of money for his time, regardless of whether that's flying, briefings or ground school. So you pay the instructor for two hours if you booked a two-hour block. Easy. Furthermore, the aircraft are paid based on tacho or hobbs time (depends on the aircraft). So for a typical lesson you pay the instructor for two hours, and the aircraft for one hour.

But in any case, all this should have been made clear to you at the start of your first proper lesson so you know what to expect. In fact, both the school in Florida I went to, and my current club, will give each new student a talk-through of all the charges they can expect during their training, and how these charges are calculated.

Big Pistons Forever

11th Apr 2012, 21:15

My experience over 23 + years of flying instructing is the total cost of your license is almost totally controlled by two factors.

1) How often you fly. More is better as if there is a delay between flights you end up spending money relearning things you have already been taught but have forgotten or where the skill has faded. Starting in the summer is better in the winter as you get fewer cancellations due to bad weather and 3 lessons a week seems to be a good balance between maintaining recency but not being overwhelmed with new information and experiences.

2) How hard you work. Most of the knowledge piece of flying is in books. You can study it your self or pay big bucks to your instructor for him to teach it to you. I tell all of my students to keep a diary of their training. Make an entry after every flight with what you did, where you were told you need to work on and a list of questions on anything you did not understand for the next lesson. When it is raining and your lesson is cancelled sit in the aircraft and go through all you checks and emergency procedures.

Finally I tell everyone to budget for 50 % more than the school quotes for a 45 hr PPL. As was stated in earlier posts almost nobody does the course in the minimum time and you do not want to run out of money with the course 80% done.

EGKB

12th Apr 2012, 08:36

Thanks, and no I can definitely afford it. Just don't want to pay more than I should, simple as that. But as I'll be paying for what I fly that can't happen, thanks bud ! :)

dobbin1

12th Apr 2012, 11:08

Not sure how your school at Biggin will charge, but at the school where I do most of my instructing just down the road at Redhill we charge for airborne time (i.e. take off to landing, measured by a meter that switches on above 30Kts) plus 0.2 hours taxy time (12 minutes). This is a good system because there is no incentive for the students to taxy too fast or skip the warm up. You won't end up paying more just because ATC keep you at the hold for a long time either.

The time you can log is from when you actually move off from parking up to when you get back to parking after the flight (or stop at the fuel bowser). This time is often more that the time charged for, especially during the early lessons when students take a long time to do their power checks.

LD1Racing

17th Apr 2012, 18:22

One other cost, often overlooked is the touch and goes (touches and go?). My last 'lesson' was 1:30 brakes off to brakes on, solo, with 9 T/G and one landing - came in a shade over £300. :eek: Don't focus too much on the hourly rate quoted.

Genghis the Engineer

17th Apr 2012, 18:47

I've always steered clear of airports that charge by the landing to local aircraft.

I fly from one - and seldom do circuits there if I can avoid it. Everywhere else I fly routinely an annual membership that includes my landings. A far more sensible approach all round it seems to me since half the cost of charging per landing goes into the cost of charging per landing!

G

LD1Racing

18th Apr 2012, 07:43

GtE - not sure if that was aimed directly at me... My dad has flown microlights for 20+ years, and has a lapsed PPL(A). However, flying from small, often unlicenced fields across the country has left him with little confidence in his RT and traffic procedures. His attitude to airspace is often 'keep low and don't talk to anyone unless you have to'.

That is one of the reasons I wanted to fly from a major airport, and be mixing it with the big stuff from day one. The RT, wake turbulence, variable circuit direction etc. all help build confidence IMO for the time when I actually want to go somewhere and do it 'properly'.

Granted it means paying a little more, but there is little choice in the North East (EGNC and EGNV both 2-hour round trips by car) when it comes to quality training establishments, and I feel while I am training it is money well spent. Even if I spend the rest of my post-qualified flying days hopping in and out of fields in Northumberland, at least I will know I can deal with the bigger, busier airports should I ever need to. :ok:

EGKB

18th Apr 2012, 08:58

£300 for 1hr 30 minutes, they must have been mugging you off tbh. Why would you need 9t/g's?

BabyBear

18th Apr 2012, 09:04

LD1Racing, I can't answer for GtE, however I would add that whether landings are charged in addition to the cost of the lesson does not necessarily relate to the size /type of airfield, in my experience. Some schools have arrangements with the airport where landings are included.

Also, whilst your outlook makes sense be careful not to use an airfield that is too busy with commercial traffic as this may well push costs and frustration levels higher than you anticipate through getting continually held at significant cost and inconvenience to training.

BB

LD1Racing

18th Apr 2012, 09:24

The hourly rate, which includes one landing is around £140. The 9 T&G were because I wasn't widening out my circuits enough ;)

Seriously, EGKB - when you start your training, you will reach a point where you must complete 3 hours solo in the circuit. Unless you are at a very busy AD, you will manage 4-6 T&G per hour. I was just unlucky that day, only had to orbit at the end of downwind twice.

Woolsington International Airport charge £11.50 IIRC for a T&G.

Grob Queen

18th Apr 2012, 10:38

EGKB,
To add to LD1's post, when I was circuit bashing (all lesson in the circuit) I was regularly clocking up 7/8/9 touch and goes. These days I usually do a couple at the end of a lesson. Its all part of training i'm afraid! ;) To put it in context, I completed 117 T&Gs before going solo...and still do both solo and dual circuits.

As an aside, I do not pay landing fees at my home airfield at all :) (Visiting civvy aircraft have to pay around £40 landing fees!)

Genghis the Engineer

18th Apr 2012, 10:53

Not aimed at anybody in particular, just a general comment. And it was about landing fees.

I learned many years ago at Old Sarum where a membership fee got me all of my landing fees. I often fly and occasionally instruct at Cranfield where the same is still true - £125pa and all my landings are covered. Cranfield is a busy airport with plenty to stretch anybody.

Occasionally I'll take a student to Enstone where they can do circuits all day for £25, which seems reasonably affordable.

I do agree that any pilot should ideally be comfortable at both a busy towered airport, and at a non-radio farmstrip, and most points in between. I also know a few microlight pilots who are terrified of going anywhere that's likely to require any meaningful radio use, but also have come across a number of GA pilots who regard a non-radio short grass strip as a completely unnecessary and stupid risk.

Both are being unnecessarily paranoid. But without training that covers both, how are they supposed to understand that?

G

EGKB

18th Apr 2012, 13:32

117!!?

I understand it's part of training, but surely if you need that many T and G's you're doing something wrong to begin with? I know it's part of circuit training too, but it took you that many attempts to perfect it... or?

Inform me otherwise :)

EDIT - Oh who cares, free landing fees where do you/did you train!!! Biggin Hill airport is going to be expensive, only got 4 hours in so far!

Nibbler

18th Apr 2012, 13:46

Ah the refreshing ja de vive of EGKB

Never question la complexité du désir de voler quelle que soit la difficulté

Grob Queen

18th Apr 2012, 17:07

Well EGKB, as you are four hours in (so on my reckoning on climbing, turning and descending and/or slow flight if your syllabus is like ours), I'm assuming that you haven't done any circuit work yet - well, not your own anyway!

I am sure that many wiser heads on here will agree with me that learning to fly (unless of course you are a genius ;) )is not a quick or easy task. The minimum is 45hours and yes, we have just had an Air Cadet gain his PPL after 45hrs 30. But I think the majority take longer than that. Some of it seems at the time like a long hard slog..and circuits for me was one of those areas.

I will try to explain as I see it from a student (I am still one :) ) perspective. Circuits are an area of flying where the pilot is at their busiest, and many of the aircraft handling skills are required. Not only is one handling the aircraft, but also talking to the Tower, carrying out checks and keeping a good lookout! OK, going around the circuit:

Take Off
Climbing turn onto downwind
Level off at cct height onto Downwind
Fly downwind leg accurately at circuit height, not forgetting downwind call and pre-land cx to include first stage flap
accurate descending turn onto Finals
Fly accurate Final approach to include short finals cx, second stage flap, finals call
Land

The health warning (before someone else points this out :p) is that what I have described is a military oval circuit which we fly as a matter of course...what I believe Civilian FTOs teach as a "bad weather circuit". What I have outlined here may not seem a lot, however, all of it, but particularly landing takes a lot of skill and fine judgement. It is something which I certainly took a long time to really hone. Remember, you are flying circuits as a lead into flying your first solo and if your instructor is doing their job properly they will want to make you spot on before you go solo. Some people just take longer than others and there is much to take in.

Also bear in mind that things may not go according to plan. You may fr instance set up a perfect approach, speed, attitude etc just fine, but then the Tower tell you to for whatever reason to go-around...or your approach is too fast, you land and have Pilot Induced oscillation or balloon and you have to put on full power, take off and go around again. You will also continue to fly circuits even when you have gone solo as this is a requirement (and good practice!) You will still have good and bad days

Sure, I was probably doing many things wrong to begin with! ;) Yes, I took a long time to perfect it. But on the other hand, I took to PFLs straight away :). I had sometimes long breaks in my training (through no fault of my own), either through lack of instructor, poor weather....many things can get in the way of even getting into the air. Good continuity is key. You need to fly AT LEAST once a week.

Your instructor will be able to tell what you are capable of...all I will say is try not to get frustrated if he/she seems picky. My instructor is self confessed Mr Picky but I like that as I know he is making me do it perfectly and in the end I will be a better pilot for it. But as others have said, learning to fly is not a race, go with the flow, enjoy it, take in everything which your instructor tells you, ask questions, make notes, do whatever makes you learn.

Remember YOU are learning to fly BECAUSE YOU WANT TO, not because some schoolteacher says you have to do it, not because (if you are doing A Levels) you need it for University entrance...you are doing it for YOU!

To your other point, I am learning at RAF Cranwell, bit too far probably for you ;) However, as I think I and probably some others have mentioned on another thread, if you are willing to travel, RAF Halton have a Flying Club and it is worth talking to them. I believe they operate from grass strips rather than long concrete and I think there are a mix of aircraft types there, but they will be able to help you with that.

Sorry this is rather an essay but I mean it in the best possible way to help you :)

GQ

ps, ....and i'm now 53 hours in...and still training... :)

Genghis the Engineer

18th Apr 2012, 17:42

A foul weather circuit is something else, the military circuit we'd usually call a military, oval, or constant aspect circuit.

And yes, whilst I didn't count them, I'd guess that I flew around a hundred circuits before I went solo as well.

Well explained GQ.

G

slarti1

18th Apr 2012, 17:57

one of the cheapest ways to do it is by doing the NPPL (M) ( 3 axis) and then converting to NPPL (A). it cost me £2500 for my NPPL (M) and i have been quoted to do 5 hours plus my GST and an exam and i will have my NPPL (A)

Grob Queen

18th Apr 2012, 18:12

A foul weather circuit is something else, the military circuit we'd usually call a military, oval, or constant aspect circuit.......

Well explained GQ.

Thanks on both accounts G! I knew someone would help me out with explaining that one properly :ok:

Cobalt

18th Apr 2012, 18:33

EGKB,

You can find the entire PPL training syllabus here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Section%202%20Subpart%20C%20-%20Amdt%204%20_JAR-FCL%201_.pdf). From Page 20 onwards, it breaks down all the "Flight Exercises" and what they contain.

In practice, these are composed slightly differently into individual sorties

Exercises 1 (Aeroplane familiarisation), 2 (Pre-flight checks) and 5 (Taxiing) are normally covered incrementally over several sorties
Exercises can be broken down over several sorties. For example, Exercise 5 (Straight and Level) typically is Ex. 5.1 - Straight and level (1) followed by Ex. 5.2 - Straight and level at various airspeeds and configurations
Also, exercises sometimes are combined, for example climbing and descending, and later Ex. 12/13 (take-off and landing, aka, circuit)
but overall, your course will follow this sequence.

Following on from GQ, how long will it take you? She is spot on that the main factors you can influence is how frequently you train, and where. Others are of course aptitude, and I would add age [I certainly don't learn as quickly as I did 20 years ago!], but you cant do anything about those...

There are really three distinct ways to go about it

Full time. Probably lowest hours to solo and flying. This will take 6 weeks or so (although weather can ruin that badly...). This will feel like hard work at times, and also you will not have experienced what it means to come back to flying after a month or two of not going up. But will give you the lowest number of hours, and I personally know people who did this in or close to minimum hours [although your mileage WILL vary, as the Americans say]
Multiple sorties per weekend, plus days off at critical trainig stages (pre-first-solo consolidation, qualifying cross country, test). Done this way, it should take up to half a year. It can be done in minimum hours, but it is less likely. Bias warning: I did all my licences/ratings (PPL, CPL, IMC rating, IR) that way.
Fly one lesson each weekend. This will take WELL over a year, and you can pretty much forget achieving anything approaching min hours.
Regarding where - on that one I am not quite with GQ. I found that both for training and for my flying that if I can't get to the airfield in less than 45 minutes, it significantly reduces my motivation to fly. If you enjoy driving, that might not be a consideration, but unless keeping cost to a minimum is your priority [and then you have chosen the wrong hobby!] I would go for a school that is close, appears to be professional and you get along with the instructor they assign to you. They DO assign one to you, right?

BackPacker

18th Apr 2012, 18:51

117!!?

My logbook shows 125 landings and 48.7 total time of flight until I got my PPL. 63 T&Gs until first solo.

Mind you, this was on an intensive course where I flew two-three times a day, every day. In mostly benign weather conditions. Also, I did not have any problems with nav (my 5th solo flight was my QXC), so I did spend a few more hours at the end of the course just doing T&Gs (both solo and dual) for the fun of it. (It helps that the US doesn't do landings fees.)

But I doubt whether you can do a full PPL with significantly less than 100 landings, or reach solo standard with significantly less than 50 landings. Especially not if you're doing a regular, one-lesson-a-week PPL, in typical NW-European weather conditions.

Piper.Classique

18th Apr 2012, 22:30

GQ, that was nicely explained. I am astounded by some of the prices people are quoting for landings, though! I don't know how people are finding the money to learn at some of these airports. I paid just under five euros the other day at Caen.....
Oh, and free at Gamston with a fuel uplift. Helpful and a good restaurant, as well.

abgd

19th Apr 2012, 02:01

Free landings and t&gs also at Inverness airport (Highlands aviation).

I never counted them, but I also had well over 100 t&gs by the time I qualified. I was doing quite nice 'standard' landings from early on but learned that I could still be caught out by the unexpected. You need to do a certain number of t/o and landings in order to gain unexpected experience.

The most interesting were 2 go-arounds (one on a crosswind landing and one at a short strip) where I may have come unstuck without an instructor.

Different flavours include:

Glide approach
Flapless
Stuck throttle approach
Bad weather circuit
Night t/o and landings
Short field takeoffs
Crosswind landings
Simulated instrument approaches

so there's plenty to practice. Next time the weather permits I may just go up with an instructor for a dozen crosswind landings.