Aerobatics - love them or hate them?

[mary meagher]

Our club has just enjoyed 10 days of a visit by the Swift aerobatic glider and the display team. We have been told that the standard of aerobatics usually flown by amateur pilots are gash, and not much fun for the poor guy strapped in and suffering. Now at my adanced age and declining ability, I still like to throw a glider around, spins, half baked chandelles, etc. But I DON'T LIKE sitting there when somebody else is doing them.....

What do you guys feel about it? Any good stories?

[thing]

Not bothered about them TBH. I can see the appeal if you like rollercoasters and the like but personally I find them boring. Nice to watch someone good doing them though.

[Grob Queen]

My very first light aircraft trip was in a Chipmunk with a good (and very experienced and skilled ) pilot friend. I had control whilst doing some loops and aileron rolls and thought they were fantastic! This really gave me the added kick to learn to fly so I could fly aeros myself. I have flown aeros with both my instructor and another friend in the club and now my inner ear is getting used to the sensation, love it all ways round! I love throwing the Grob around as much as my limitations will allow... So yes, when I have my licence I plan to learn aeros flying in the Firefly. There are two chaps in the club who are extremely good at aeros, and watching them is amazing. :)

[foxmoth]

IMHO you get two types of pilot when taking pax for aeros flights, those that try to show you how good they are, and those that try and show you how much fun aeros can be - always try and go with the second type! I can safely frighten and make sick most people, but there are very few that do aeros with me that come down unhappy:ok:

[riverrock83]

I've sat in the right seat during a couple of demos which I've enjoyed from our local examiner, and my PPL instructor has had me flying wing overs and aileron rolls for "a bit of fun" relatively early in my training.
GREAT FUN !!!:D

For a newbie it is a great way of knowing and seeing what a plane can do - so as not to be scared of it - and see something to aim for (aspire to) way off in the future.
Very interesting also to see the difference between doing it to enjoy (build up speed; move stick gently all the way to the left...) compared to accurate competition methods (speed; check; stick immediately left; hold; immediately right; check...)*. Plus I've always enjoyed roller coasters :ok:

It also helps to remind me that flying is, and is supposed to be fun - its not just rules & regs and concentration and money grabbing. I know aeros aren't everyone's idea of fun, but you are allowed to enjoy doing them!

PS - definitely an advantage to be doing your PPL in an aerobatic capable aeroplane!


*These are representative - not showing actual manoeuvres!

[thing]

It can still be fun without doing pointless gyrations...you wouldn't walk down the street and then suddenly do a handstand. Or maybe you would. One man's meat etc. The only aerial acrobating I like to do is spinning. That's OK and a useful thing to be able to handle.

That's not to say I don't like roaring around in and out of cloud canyons just for the hell of it on a fine evening. But then maybe that doesn't appeal to everyone.

[Grob Queen]

and those that try and show you how much fun aeros can be - always try and go with the second type

Yup...exactly......all three friends of mine have shown me what fun aeros are :ok:

Totally agree with you Riverrock!! Nothing wrong with showing Studes what an aircraft can do...shows how controllable an aircraft is, what it can do and gives us something to aspire to....:):)

[Lagentium]

I've had my PPL for six months and there's something pulling me desperately towards aerobatics! I've been thinking about doing an intensive course to get me to beginners level to try a competition, and see whether I'm any good at it or the fact that my hands and feet lag slightly behind my brain, which at my age isn't so good!!:ok:

Cheers, Jim

[Mark1234]

The standard of most amateur aeros may be gash.. but I completely agree with foxmoth. Paxing 'competition' style aeros is uncomfortable even when you know what you're doing.

Simple answer is to ask the pax. I rarely aerobat passengers on their first flight, never unless they're keen and always emphasise it's supposed to be fun and that we knock it off if you're uncomfortable for ANY reason. No suffering required.

[abgd]

From my limited experience (one taster session and some airshows), better from inside the cockpit than out.

[DX Wombat]

We have been told that the standard of aerobatics usually flown by amateur pilots are gash, The standard is or the pilots are? Whose expert opinion is this? I'm not sure that the BAeA would agree with that person. :*

[Big Pistons Forever]

. We have been told that the standard of aerobatics usually flown by amateur pilots are gash, and not much fun for the poor guy strapped in and suffering.

As general comment the load mouths that make negative generalization about a group of pilots usually seem to be the ones that can't walk the talk themselves.

If you are watching my aerobatics from the ground then yes I guess to a competition judge they would indeed be "gash". I like big graceful manoevers where the Gee comes on and off gently there is nothing less than 1/2 Gee and the manoevers flow from one to the other. No impressive square corners, head banging roll stops or yank and banks. It looks and feels nice to me and that is all that matters to this "amateur"

[Slasher]

But I DON'T LIKE sitting there when somebody else is doing them.....

....I don't mind sitting in the DH82 scratching my nuts when
someone's flying them to perfection - I only get the ****s up
when the greedy bugger doesn't give me a crack at the stick!

I used to do aeros in comps when I was much younger - just
Saturday afternoon inter-aeroclub stuff - nothing professional
so to speak. Nowadays I prefer a nice quiet corner of the sky
for an hour or so's worth just on my own towards sunset (in
the Tiger, natch) with no bastard in the front seat nitpicking
about my barrel rolls.

[tractorpuller]

As long as you have been trained for what you are doing and are doing it safely and according the regs, I say fly whatever you like.
In what way are they "gash"? Often the "soft" aeros as described by B P Forever is the most comfortable for those strapped in next, beside or behind you. Competition style aeros are uncomfortable, period. Still great fun when you are doing them yourself :)

I've taken up quite a few passengers doing aeros and you quickly learn to adapt your style according to how the passenger reacts. Some just want to see the world spin around the canopy and are happy with that, others still want more even though you have reached the limits to what you and the aircraft can do, but they all enjoyed it.

[stiknruda]

I used to compete but when flying pax would only give them gentle stuff. As I get older I prefer the looping and swooping to the balls-out flicking and gyroscopics.

Now doing it with your buddy next to you makes it all a lot more fun - this really IS the best fun that you can have with your clothes on!! Loads more vids on our website.

Stik

kFcnNfta_lI

[Zulu Alpha]

It depends on why you are doing the aerobatics.

If its for your own fun then the accuracy doesn't matter. You will probably enjoy an egg shaped loop as much as a round one.

If its for people on the ground then accuracy looks much better. Round loops and accurate vertical lines just look better than sloppy ones.

Neither is "correct".

Everyone thinks aerobatics are expensive. Certainly the hourly rate is higher. However most flights are less than 30 mins so the price paid compares well to straight and level, where the flight length would usually be longer, especially if there is an away landing.

I would encourage everyone to try aeros with a good instructor who will let you have your hands on the stick all the time. Ones that say "let me have control and I'll show you" are more likely to make you queasy than if you fly yourself.

If you feel ill then stop and land ASAP. It never gets better in the air.

Finally, make sure you have eaten and hour or two beforehand and have drunk some liquids. Nothing worse than low blood sugar or dehydration to make you feel sick.
The best food for aeros is bananas..... they taste the same going down and coming back up again!!!

[dont overfil]

Five minutes is enough when I am doing them.

Two minutes when someone else is.

D.O.

[It flies]

A couple of years ago I did +6.5 and -3 G as a passenger in a Pitts and loved it. So much so that I gained my licence and am flying aerobatics in a Pitts myself now.

I think the thing with aerobatics is that doing a loop is easy. But flying a perfect one every time is very hard. There are too many variables. That's what keeps it interesting. For me it's not about throwing an aircraft around the sky. It's about accuracy and finesse and energy management. Even in competition flying, the high-G square loop flying is only found at the higher levels.

It may be surprising to some how quickly one gets used to different attitudes. The very first hammerhead feels very strange. But after a couple this just goes away and you're focused on trying to improve technique and don't even think about going straight up or down.

So, aerobatics: I love 'm . I can always fly straight and level later...

I think this photo sums it up very nicely.

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photom/0206/002180.jpg

[effortless]

I noticed that as I got older I tolerated aeros less. It got to the point that I was nauseated just sustaining a tight orbit. Never been able to cope very well with someone else at the controls. Negative g always a beast. Red out more than once but rarely blacked out.

[S-Works]

Never enjoyed them even going back to flight training in the RAF. I hate being a passenger for them, in fact refuse point blank these days.

I am a happy traveller. But each to their own and if you enjoy it go for it!

[maxred]

A number of years ago I undertook a conversion course to set me up for a new type. The instructor was a well known and highly regarded aerobatic display pilot. I had a D/A, and considered myself 'adept'. Spins was his thing , about 30 each sorti, and each day we did them again, and again, in case you had forgotten the previous 30. The highlight, because I had earned it, was a climb to 10000 feet, and let's try an inverted spin, aggravated just for fun. Having completed the first, I obviously just had to try it again, myself this time. I have never felt so ill in all my life. I remember telling him, on the last loop of the sorti that I had thrown up in the front cockpit, with his response of don't worry you can clean it up when we land!!!!!

[foxmoth]

Must have been long sorties! Even in something like an Extra I would think a couple of minutes for each spin and climb back up, so Even with nothing else other than the spins that would be over an hour airborne:8 Seems pretty pointless as well - hope you were not paying:eek:

[mary meagher]

Looking at that super pair of aerobats flown by the Wildcats and posted by Sticknruda, can anybody tell me

what happened to skywriting? never see it any more.....

[dobbin1]

"Looking at that super pair of aerobats flown by the Wildcats and posted by Sticknruda, can anybody tell me

what happened to skywriting? never see it any more....."

Aerobatic pilots can't spell :)

[stiknruda]

Thank you Mary!! Our website has details of all our confirmed shows this summer - more seem to be appearing virtually each week!

Skywriting - have never seen it in Europe but have seen it a few times in Texas and Arizona.

We try and draw a heart in the sky but it's longevity is all down to the ambient temp and the wind on the day.

Stik

[The500man]

I think you need to be prepared in aerobatics. If you are the one flying you know what's coming and you can prepare yourself. If you are a passenger you need to know where to look and what to expect, but even so realistically you are always going to be slightly behind in every maneouvre. As a pilot it's not so good if you pull G and then wonder why your passenger has passed out. It's your fault you didn't warn them. Knowing where to look is important, but so is mental and physical preperation for every loop, roll etc.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I enjoy it if the pilot doing it is competant. Except when it's me doing it, in which case my expectations drop to more realistic levels!

Before I bought my Yak 52 share I did a flight with the guy setting up the group. He'd won the British Aerobatic Stabdard level title in the aeroplane and he flew his sequence. It convinced me to buy the share!

Flying for fun is all about 3-dimensional freedom (well, it is for me). The ultimate expression of that is aeros. So I can't understand why every fun flyer (so excluding those doing it merely for transport) isn't an aerobatic pilot?

How can you fly on a lovely day with big puffy cu floating around and not want to pull the nose up and r-o-l-l the aeroplane, then hold it down for speed and ease the stick back, feeling the G pushing you into the seat, as Shropshire (or wherever) vanishes beneath the nose before re-appearing over the cockpit?

How can anyone not do whatever it takes to experience that on any suitable flying day?

[DX Wombat]

British Aerobatic Stabdard level I know competition is fierce but I didn't realise it had reached such levels. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/DX_Wombat/icon_pale1.gif
Just joking. I know it was a typo but I couldn't resist it.

[thing]

How can you fly on a lovely day with big puffy cu floating around and not want to pull the nose up and r-o-l-l the aeroplane, then hold it down for speed and ease the stick back, feeling the G pushing you into the seat, as Shropshire (or wherever) vanishes beneath the nose before re-appearing over the cockpit?


We all get different things out of flying, if aerobatics flaots your boat then go for it. I'm not particularly interested. That doesn't mean if someone offered me an aeros trip I wouldn't do it for a bit of diversion and enjoy it, but I can't work up the enthusiasm to want to do it all the time.

[Guzzler]

Love 'em.

Not good at them but I enjoy myself!

[mary meagher]

In a K21 glider, stressed for most aerobatic maneuvers. Descending from 9,000 feet during a check ride with an instructor at Deeside Gliding Club near Aboyne, the instructor asks "Do you mind if I try a couple of maneuvers?"

I should have said "No, no, no!" (Took me two days to recover after an aerobatic flight with another expert.) But I said okay. The instructor then tried to ROLL the K21. Now being an all purpose glider, decent performance, the wings stick out generously, and it is not well adapted to the barrel roll.
Don't exactly know what he did, but I greyed out, and didn't recover full consciousness until we were downwind in the circuit, when the nice chap says to me "You have control!"

The approach was into sun, on an ice covered narrow runway. I managed to land adequately to pass the check ride. Another learning experience....

[tractorpuller]

More of a problem with the instructor than the aircraft then. The K21 can do nice rolls if the pilot is up to it, even 8 point rolls etc. and there is absolutely no reason to pull lots of Gs doing a barrel roll with it. Hope he tried something else ;)
Maybe not the best thing to do on a checkride mind you.

[Pilot DAR]

Some compotent aerobatic training is a vital safety skill for any pilot to have. Most pilots are not happy during the second consecutive hour of aerobatics in a given day, particularly if they're riding through it, rather than flying it themselves. It takes a hearty constitution to do hours of aerobatics on end. Usually after a half an hour, I've had enough for a while.

I consider that half hour of aerobatics every month or two vital for my skills and safety, while flying other aircraft though.

That said - compotent instruction and a G meter are vital. Fooling around on your own can get an amature pilot in big trouble fast.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

A correctly flown barrel roll is a low 'G' manouvre (more than 1, less than 2). But it is a very easy manouvre to get wrong, in which case the exit can be fast and nose-low, requiring a high 'G' pullout.

This is why that though just about any aeroplane can be barrel rolled if the pilot guarantees not to screw up (prototype B707 for instance), mere mortals should never attempt the manouvre except in a type cleared for aeros.

[stiknruda]

Barrels, wing-overs, half-reverse Cubans all have the propensity to end in tears. Energy is safety and height is insurance.

Stik

[Pilot DAR]

This is why that though just about any aeroplane can be barrel rolled if the pilot guarantees not to screw up

Indeed... While riding right seat with my freind (a very compotent aerobatic pilot) in his 185 amphibian, I asked him if a plane with that much weight under it would roll....

yes, it would, very nicely!