The LAA forum [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Genghis the Engineer

1st Apr 2012, 22:36

I really can't see your point. It's a members organisation, providing a facility for its members. It has council members and employees who need to engage with comment and criticism, perhaps directly. To try and force anonymity to allow you to argue for anonymity is just challenging them for no good reason that I can see.

I'm a member of LAA, BMAA and RAeS (along with a couple of other organisations). Where I've ever felt it necessary to criticise an organisation that I've been a member of, I've done it in my own name and directly.

To hide behind anonymity to criticise people either you elected, or who are effectively your employees, is extremely rude.

Pprune is different - it was always set up as an anonymous forum.

G

stickandrudderman

1st Apr 2012, 22:42

To try and force anonymity to allow you to argue for anonymity is just challenging them for no good reason that I can see.

Which is the whole point. Whilst they insist on publicly declaring your identity you are denied the opportunity to express your opinion unless you conform.

Genghis the Engineer

1st Apr 2012, 22:49

Cobblers. If you have an opinion, you have every right to express it - you are simply not being allowed to do so behind the veil of anonymity.

I don't know what you do SticknRudderMan, but let's assume for a moment that you have a boss, and he has a boss and so-on. How would you feel about one of your employers posting on the company noticeboard that you aren't doing your job properly - without your having any right to remove it, or any right to know who is saying it?

That, from the point of view of any of the LAA employees, is what you want to do.

G

robin

1st Apr 2012, 22:53

I agree with your last point. The forum is a bit moribund and self-congratulatory. But there are a number of posters who seem to be able to post under pseudonyms (planemike, Rod1, linspuk, colin330, Flyontrack etc etc), so it does seem a bit odd to make a rule for an individual

However the LAA is noticeably touchy about any criticism from members. They are fortunate in that the bulk of the membership are members who need a Permit and not by choice so they don't have to be that responsive to criticism.

Genghis the Engineer

1st Apr 2012, 23:12

I'm a little out of touch, but I think that LAA has around three times as many members as aeroplanes hasn't it ?

G

abgd

2nd Apr 2012, 00:03

I'm with Genghis on this one.

There are a lot of good reasons to stay anonymous on the web, but the privilege is often abused and I can't see any justification for criticising a website for forcing people to post identifiably. It's their prerogative.

robin

2nd Apr 2012, 00:17

Possibly but think of the number of kits in progress, all of which require LAA membership

ak7274

2nd Apr 2012, 06:09

Isn't it because of the LAA we are allowed to build our own aircraft?

stickandrudderman

2nd Apr 2012, 06:48

I don't know what you do SticknRudderMan, but let's assume for a moment that you have a boss, and he has a boss and so-on. How would you feel about one of your employers posting on the company noticeboard that you aren't doing your job properly - without your having any right to remove it, or any right to know who is saying it?

I'm glad you made that comparison.
Now, supposing I AM THE BOSS and I don't want my employees or customers to know what I do with my money or time.

I have absolutley no problem with being a member of the LAA, they provide a valuable service. I feel that they are doing not only themselves but their members a dis-service by discourageing open and frank dialogue on their public forum.
It SHOULD be a valuable resource but it isn't and I suspect that is because of the anonymity rule.
The comparison I made in my post that their (single) mod deleted is that it's tantamount to being obliged to send all of your surface mail in unsealed envelopes thereby allowing anyone who cares to access its contents. Its about privacy and identity protection.
As Robin says, there are some posters who seem to be allowed their privacy whilst the rest are not.

ShyTorque

2nd Apr 2012, 07:05

Different web based forums have different rules and are owned by someone, just like most things in society. So, if you wish to be a member you must comply, or leave the room. Simple enough.

Here the rules are slightly different, you can use your real name if you choose, or another if you prefer.

All the best,
Ben Twilley.

Genghis the Engineer

2nd Apr 2012, 07:47

being a member of the LAA, they provide

Why don't you actually join the LAA? Then it becomes "we" and you can participate fully?

I do agree however that inconsistency is unacceptable. Either everybody has to give their real name, or nobody. When you've joined the LAA, perhaps you could challenge that in-house, as a member. The moderator deleting your posts is presumably not anonymous. To other members.

And equally, as a member, you have the right to challenge anything the staff do by, for example, writing to the CE or Chief Engineer, which will be private correspondence between you and they.

G

pulse1

2nd Apr 2012, 07:52

but I think that LAA has around three times as many members as aeroplanes hasn't it ?

Quite a lot of LAA aircraft are group owned and each group member has to be a member of the LAA. In our hangar, I guess the ratio of members to aircraft is about 3:1.

stiknruda

2nd Apr 2012, 08:00

The LAA Forum is a member's forum, I think it is essential that if one wished to be taken seriously that one uses one's real name. As members we are all entitled to vote at the AGM - we do this either in person or by proxy using our real names!

I'm with Ghengis and ShyTorque on this.

It appears that Stickandrudderman joined this forum in 06 and by chose a name very similar to mine - you've obviously got an issue with names!

Bob Gerunkel
LAA 125764

S-Works

2nd Apr 2012, 11:35

The PPLIR forum requires real names and has always benefitted from it. People think twice about what they post before posting..... Makes for a much more civilised discussion forum. The flyer forum has a much greater number of people who post under a real name. Again it's much more civilised.

PPrune is the wild west and most people use the anonymity to swipe and snipe at others from what they think is a hidden identity. Although after all these years most people do know each other!

Rod1

2nd Apr 2012, 13:12

I have posted a link on the LAA site back to this thread so we can have an unrestricted debate. Having members only and names is overkill and there are many valid reasons why people may not be able to post under their own name. Unfortunately they are not going to post them on a forum...

Rod1

rans6andrew

2nd Apr 2012, 13:19

I am one of those that posts under pseudonym BUT you are allowed to this IF you set up your profile to autosign your postings with your real name. I use a pseudonym to preserve consistency across all of the places I post. Simples.

Rans6.......

aka Andrew Cattell.

riverrock83

2nd Apr 2012, 15:10

To me, the difference is in the level of trust you place in the information you get from a forum. With anonymous postings here, everything needs to be taken with a serious pinch of salt.
On the LAA forum, you can verify who said what, and can trust that information to a much greater extent. People are accountable for what they say.

Other advantages, as others have said include because it isn't anonymous, it can be moderated with a very light touch. You just don't get trolls. There are pretty much no trolls who allow their real name to appear. This means that resources at the LAA can be kept in the things they do best.

The other thing is that this can only be changed after a resolution from the National Council. To get this changed, you will need agreement at the top level.

Now if only I had something interesting to contribute to the LAA forums I might register... (and I don't have my LAA number on me at the moment which doesn't help!)

stickandrudderman

2nd Apr 2012, 17:18

Quote:
being a member of the LAA, they provide Why don't you actually join the LAA? Then it becomes "we" and you can participate fully?

I am already a member, where in any of my posts did I say that I wasn't?
As a member it follows that I might be involved or at least interested in what other members have to say. I might even have something valuable to contribute but as long as doing so means that I have to make my business known to the entire internet population then I am not at all comfortable with it.

It appears that Stickandrudderman joined this forum in 06 and by chose a name very similar to mine - you've obviously got an issue with names!

You have quite obviously taken umbrage because I had the temerity to choose a forum name that was similar to yours.

I am one of those that posts under pseudonym BUT you are allowed to this IF you set up your profile to autosign your postings with your real name. I use a pseudonym to preserve consistency across all of the places I post. Simples.
The net result of which is that you have to divulge your identity.

Do you think if Paul Macartney bought himself a kit he would be happy to sign up to an internet forum and tell the world about it?

S-Works

2nd Apr 2012, 17:31

Why not? If he was seeking advice from others on how to build or operate it?

The difference between the LAA forum and somewhere like PPrune is the LAA forum is for members of the LAA to support each other.

Really, what do you have to contribute that requires a mask of secrecy?

stiknruda

2nd Apr 2012, 17:45

I had the temerity to choose a forum name that was similar to yours.

It just smacks of piss poor preparation and a lack of imigination:confused:

No umbrage taken but I do hope Ppruners don't confuse us - I try to help and encourage not whinge!!

Robert S Gerunkel

Planemike

2nd Apr 2012, 18:06

The forum is a bit moribund and self-congratulatory. But there are a number of posters who seem to be able to post under pseudonyms (planemike, Rod1, linspuk, colin330, Flyontrack etc etc), so it does seem a bit odd to make a rule for an individual

However the LAA is noticeably touchy about any criticism from members. They are fortunate in that the bulk of the membership are members who need a Permit and not by choice so they don't have to be that responsive to criticism.

robin..........

robin...........

Just for the record my full name ( Michael John BLAKE) does appear on my postings on the LAA forum. I have no problem with that: just feel that the "the powers that be" at the LAA should be a little more grown up and let people choose whether to use their own name or a "handle", after all we are adults.

One has the feeling that there is a group of folk in the LAA who are paranoid control freaks. As you say not too keen on hearing dissenting voices.

I hang around Prune and FlyPast forums where pseudonyms are the norm and have never really seen any major problems that cannot be overcome by some moderating where and when required. All and sundry can post on those forums whereas you have to be a member to post on the LAA website. Have to say the LAA website is pretty dull and not well supported.

Really, what do you have to contribute that requires a mask of secrecy?

bose-x,

Not really a matter of secrecy, just being allowed to choose, treated as adults.

Planemike............... (aka Michael J BLAKE )

stickandrudderman

2nd Apr 2012, 19:53

Thankyou Planemike for your support, and thank you to Rod 1, who despite his anonymity is a regular contributor of valuable information on this forum. Indeed thank you to all contributors.
You see, here we are having a nice discussion despite the attempts of a minority to steer it towards his own agenda, without having to reveal our identities.
I know who some of you are, and one or two know who I am, I have no problem with that.
I do have a problem with being forced to reveal my identity on a public forum which anybody can access, not just LAA members. If you think it is for members only, pop over there and cut a quote from someones post, paste it into google and see where you end up.
I also happen to think that the LAA forum is under-utilised as a result of this rule, which is a shame as it could be a very useful tool.
Further, it seems to me as if the LAA is run a bit like an "Old boys club". "This is the way we do things around here young man, now run along and don't cause a fuss, there's a good chap!"

stiknruda

2nd Apr 2012, 20:08

Well S&M man - if you don't like it, stand for NC or EC and make a difference.

I didn't like it I stood, was elected and I did make a difference!!

Bob Gerunkel

Monocock

2nd Apr 2012, 21:06

Being anonymous is quite useful at times.

Bob Geldof

stickandrudderman

2nd Apr 2012, 23:02

I'll have to copy my posts on the LAA forum to here so they can be preserved before they get deleted....

It's interesting to note that this thread has generated more response than any other on the first page of thread listings.
So, talk about fabrics, dopes, woods, paints, metals, engines, oils, greases, avionics, flight testing, progress reports, deosn't appear to interest anyone on here, but talk of forum rules does.
Go figure.

stickandrudderman

3rd Apr 2012, 07:31

And, as predicted, the "Old Boys" have removed my access rights not just to the forum, which is no great loss, but to the whole LAA site which rather proves my point.:D

Planemike

3rd Apr 2012, 07:38

stickandrudderman,

Grossly unfair...............!! Just what are they scared of.....?

Planemike

BabyBear

3rd Apr 2012, 07:44

stickandrudder, why not use your name on the LAA forum for the purpose of having the debate there. After the event you have the choice of not posting again, or changing your handle if you manage to get the rule changed.

Just a thought.

BB

stickandrudderman

3rd Apr 2012, 07:45

Just what are they scared of.....?

Why, the truth of course!:)

stickandrudder, why not use your name on the LAA forum for the purpose of having the debate there. After the event you have the choice of not posting again, or changing your handle if you manage to get the rule changed.

Just a thought.

And not an unreasonable one but I have asked their moderator to restore my access rights on the condition that I no longer contribute any posts to the forum. Since they seem happy for the forum to continue to be under-utilised it's no great loss.

Peter Gristwood

3rd Apr 2012, 09:26

Whatever stickandrudderman intended it does seem to have envigorated a normally moribund LAA forum on the subject.

vee-tail-1

3rd Apr 2012, 09:31

Hmnn ... interesting debate.

I post as vee-tail on most forums.
But I sometimes think ... "Would I sign my real name to what I just posted"?

If the answer is no, then why not? ....
What is my motivation for posting?
Am I expecting/provoking retribution?
Am I indulging in 'whistle blowing' or troublemaking?

Signing your real name sure makes one check out the real reason for a post.

Mike Godsell

Rod1

3rd Apr 2012, 09:38

stickandrudderman

When the rule was brought in there was an option to apply for permission to continue to post as before providing there was a good reason. I applied for said permission and got it. If you have a good reason then you will get a fair hearing. As an example, anyone who is in at a certain level in an aviation related field and operates under a corporate communications policy would be braking there contract of employment by making public statements on an aviation forum. Said person probably has less control of the multinationals corporate communications policy than over the workings of the LAA.:yuk:

Rod1

peterh337

3rd Apr 2012, 10:36

Having been "on the internet" since the days of 1990s Compuserve (remember 1200 baud dial-up?) and its stuffy forums where everybody was forced to appear under the full name of their credit card account (i.e. zero anonymity) I much prefer anonymous forums.

It's true that non-anon forums are more civilised but at the same time almost nobody posts there if the topic is even remotely political or controversial. And a lot of stuff in aviation that is useful to know is also controversial.... you could start with strategies on flight in icing conditions for example. Aviation is very political at times too. It is an awfully small scene in the UK... which also means that anybody who posts something nasty will be rumbled quickly because somebody will know him from where he flies from.

In most cases, if you really want to, you can work out the identity of a regular poster using google and other things, and anyway p p r u n e will be logging the IPs so it would be unwise to write something that is seriously bad (libel etc).

The PPL/IR forum, which someone mentioned, is mostly non-anon, with a policy whereby new members are requested to show their full name, but it has only about a dozen or so posters who ever write anything useful. It's a good forum if you want to ask a very technical question concerning regulation re IFR issues, but I found that otherwise anything controversial is jumped on by one of two individuals and the resulting argument is then deleted by the admin. When I was contacted about changing my nickname there to my full name, I said I would agree so long as all my previous posts are deleted, and they let it go. I rarely post there nowadays, because if I want to get some sort of response to a question one needs to post it a lot more widely, and likewise if one wants to draw attention to some regulatory issue. It is a members-only forum but anybody paying the £60 membership can join and read all the past posts, and this did once result in all kinds of legal threats (without apparent basis but unpleasant) from one well known aviation individual after he joined, and that was a big lesson for all after which the postings there dropped right down. The vast majority of PPL/IR members don't appear to access the forum there.

Here, most regulars know who I am which is fine. In fact I have met a fair % of them at one time or another. I also wouldn't write anything which I know is wrong or libellious. But the superficial anonymity does help protect you from somebody googling on your full name and getting tons of stuff on you.

The best aviation forums (for getting technical information, anyway) are American. They are all web based, and are the successors to the rec.aviation.* Usenet groups which were superb, and never equalled. All of these are anonymous. Go figure, as they say...

If you contact somebody privately, they give you their name anyway - first name at least. I recall only one exception in all the years. That bloke, an occassional poster here, signs his emails as Webmaster@..., and is prob99 a programmer who is working for some company while advertising his services on a website (which also doesn't reveal his name, bizzarely!) and he is playing it very carefully :)

The other thing is that if you enforce full names, people just make them up. This is what happens on the Socata owners forum (which also suffers from ludicrous moderation and almost nobody on there writes anything new and useful). I know a load of people there personally and some use made-up surnames. Pointless.

gasax

3rd Apr 2012, 11:03

The LAA forum is what it is - largely moribund. The real names was just part of some pretty heavy handed 'moderation'.

As mentioned earlier there is a hair trigger response to any hint of criticism - which I find pretty ripe from an orgnaisation which changes it name and goals with no input from its own members.....

I very occasionally post there - but what should be a vibrant resource is in esscence a waste. But until the present 'managment' change (or perhaps die, given their attitude to the net and associated matters) it will remain something of a waste.

robin

3rd Apr 2012, 12:18

Gasax

I wholeheartedly agree. I'd like to see it dump some of the stuffy attitudes and move towards becoming a much more effective organisation capable of representing all of light GA.

However, there is an element who are holding back the necessary change. In many respects it remains a 'gentleman's' club of kit-builders and change comes slowly, if at all.

The Heff

3rd Apr 2012, 18:31

I don't mind so much about posting under my full name on the LAA Forum, and I think the rule sets the tone for the forum.

PPRuNe is ultimately, a rumour network with no claims to accredited or even factually accurate content. That sensible piece of advice you've just read on a PPRuNe post could be from an experienced pilot/engineer, or it could be from an armchair mechanic writing from in between his buttocks.

The LAA forum adds academic weight to its content by fully crediting the posts to the writer; some of this content goes into the LAA Magazine. The forum is somewhat stagnant, but I think that is purely because the majority of members don't have anything of solid value to write about.

Personally, I have a greater issue with the CAA who happily post my aircraft registration details, full name and address onto the public domain without seeking my permission. The DVLA aren't so free with information, so why are the CAA?

robin

3rd Apr 2012, 20:24

Heff

Oh please

The LAA site is moribund because no-one has anything interesting to say. If it isn't about kit-building or how quickly the Permit is issued it is self-centred about Permit-type stuff. It is very much a closeted in-group

Whereas PPrune or Flyer are worth visiting daily the LAA site (and for that matter AOPA) are not worth visiting more than once a month until a thread like this happens and the LAA in-group closes ranks

stickandrudderman

3rd Apr 2012, 20:31

and I think the rule sets the tone for the forum.

except that it doesn't. There's been plenty of rude and offensive responses on there.
Now, the distance between my left and my right shoulder is sufficient such that I am able to cope but the quality of posts is definitely NOT guarenteed by the lack of anonymity.

PPRuNe is ultimately, a rumour network with no claims to accredited or even factually accurate content. That sensible piece of advice you've just read on a PPRuNe post could be from an experienced pilot/engineer, or it could be from an armchair mechanic writing from in between his buttocks.

Nobody of sound mind would treat any singular peice of advice found on any forum as sensible without further corroboration. Having a name attached to it makes not one bit of difference.

The forum is somewhat stagnant, but I think that is purely because the majority of members don't have anything of solid value to write about.

Or are afraid that if they publish their thoughts they might go straight to hell, cast there by the LAA forum Gods.

Personally, I have a greater issue with the CAA who happily post my aircraft registration details, full name and address onto the public domain without seeking my permission. The DVLA aren't so free with information, so why are the CAA?

Which is a good point well made but not relevant here.

PompeyPaul

3rd Apr 2012, 20:46

Luckily I post under my real name. Actually I don't, my wife threatened me with divorce if I changed my name, by deed poll, to pompey Portsmouth football club Paul :E

To all intents and purposes it's my real name :ok:

thing

3rd Apr 2012, 20:57

I thought they were called Portsmouth Nil?

Rod1

3rd Apr 2012, 21:11

Portsmouth play football, naaa.

Rod1

peterh337

3rd Apr 2012, 21:37

PPRuNe is ultimately, a rumour network with no claims to accredited or even factually accurate content. That sensible piece of advice you've just read on a PPRuNe post could be from an experienced pilot/engineer, or it could be from an armchair mechanic writing from in between his buttocks.OK, my real name is John Smith and thus everything I write is 100% copper bottomed truth.

Some of the stuff written by the old hands in UK GA is dreadful patronising crap. I won't mention names - everybody knows who they are.

The Heff

3rd Apr 2012, 22:05

The LAA site is moribund because no-one has anything interesting to say. If it isn't about kit-building or how quickly the Permit is issued it is self-centred about Permit-type stuff. It is very much a closeted in-group

Does it need to be interesting, when there are other forums available? I agree, its better to visit PPRuNe and Flyer daily rather than the LAA forum, because there's going to be a wider community interested in reading and writing about aviation. I prefer to only use the LAA forum if I need to ask a specific question about maintaining a PtF aircraft; which is like Robin described: very much a closeted in-group of people interested in light aircraft.

Nobody of sound mind would treat any singular peice of advice found on any forum as sensible without further corroboration. Having a name attached to it makes not one bit of difference.

Nobody of sound mind would trust any singular piece of advice full-stop. I tend to ask the same question to five different people, and get two or three different answers, then make a decision. However, crediting the post to a name rather than a username does lend some more formality and officialdom to the writer, which is what the LAA are really keen on.

Which is a good point well made but not relevant here.

The relevance is that you and I are both complaining that an aeronautical regulating body publishes our name in the public domain against our wishes. I don't like my name and address made available for every Tom, Dick and Harry who cares to look up my aircraft on G-INFO (although, admittedly G-INFO has proven to be a useful tool), and you don't like you cannot post anonymously on the LAA forum.

robin

3rd Apr 2012, 22:16

...which is like Robin described: very much a closeted in-group of people interested in light aircraft.

I'd go further than that. They are only interested in a small subset of light aircraft ie Permit only

Genghis the Engineer

3rd Apr 2012, 22:51

Are flexwing microlights still banned from landing at Turweston?

G

robin

3rd Apr 2012, 23:05

IIRC they have limitations on movements generally

Steve N

4th Apr 2012, 06:11

Stickandrudderman has taken a lot of flak unfairly in my opinion. He is one or the few still interested enough to question the PFA/LAA policy. The majority lost interest after the whole forum was deleted for the second time.

The first PFA forum was a useful place to visit and a search answered pretty well any technical light GA question. It was not just PFA and open to all to ask their techie questions. A lot of very experienced people contributed their knowledge to it. The problem was it was easily hacked because nobody at PFA either understood or cared enough to keep it secure. Instead of fixing the software, one day the whole of the forum content was arbitrarily removed. It was a knee jerk reaction by people that didn't understand anything about computers.

After it was deleted it came back as a members only forum. Some took the time to repopulate it with snippets of the useful stuff but the ability for non members to ask questions or answer them was lost.

Then it was deleted a second time, this time because no one at LAA tried to move the posts to a new forum format. Many took that as an indication of how much LAA valued their contributions and the majority with anything useful to say drifted away to Flyer and PPrune.

So the above is why the LAA forum is a dust ball nowadays. The anonymity and sensitivity to criticism issues are really small fry in comparison. They have just made sure no one bothers to try again.

patowalker

4th Apr 2012, 06:12

Are flexwing microlights still banned from landing at Turweston?

Yes, same as Deddington.

Genghis the Engineer

4th Apr 2012, 06:46

Nah, Billy Brooks used to often land in a farmers field out the back.

G

stickandrudderman

4th Apr 2012, 06:49

Steve Neal,
thanks for that info, I had no idea there was so much history to this palava but now that I do everything makes a lot more sense.:ok:

Rod1

4th Apr 2012, 08:05

Stickandrudderman

Next time you decide to stir up a hornets’ nest remind me to find a bunker to hide. Paul and co have effectively hounded me out.

Rod1

Peter Gristwood

4th Apr 2012, 10:26

Rod1

Not sure what you mean by that last post. What has happened?

gasax

4th Apr 2012, 10:40

Rod1 has decided not to post on the LAA forum so he does not appear to break the rules.

Steve has given a lot of thebackground to the 'issues' with the LAA forum. It is a huge shame that the attitudes are so inflexible and dogmatic - but the PFA was always 'an old man's organisation' in the sense that committee positions and attitudes were orientated that way.

The change in name was supposed to demonstrate a more open, inclusive and wider approach - but PR is easy, changing the people will probably be the only way for the walk to match the talk.

But there is a cracking good memembers magazine - if the people involved saw the internet complementing that rather than competing maybe some of the walk would match the talk?

Peter Gristwood

4th Apr 2012, 11:12

I see

I was disappointed that the change of name didn't lead to a change in ethos. The magazine is well produced, but has little relevance to me as I don't have a Permit aircraft and I'm not interested in building (or more truthfully, flying in anything I'd built!)

Planemike

4th Apr 2012, 12:30

Steve has given a lot of thebackground to the 'issues' with the LAA forum. It is a huge shame that the attitudes are so inflexible and dogmatic - but the PFA was always 'an old man's organisation' in the sense that committee positions and attitudes were orientated that way.

The change in name was supposed to demonstrate a more open, inclusive and wider approach - but PR is easy, changing the people will probably be the only way for the walk to match the talk.

I have been a PFA/LAA member for some 36 years. I saddens me to see an organisation that seems be unwiling/unable trust its members and allow them to speak and yes, at times be critical.

Not met too many of the hierachy but their actions lead one to think they maybe a collection of paranoid control freaks. Likely the problem extends a wee bit further than just whether or not you can post on the LAA with a pseudonym.

Effective moderation does provide a measure of control over what appears on a forum. I am a viewer/contibutor to several aviation forums where all seems to work fairly well. Why will that not work on the LAA Forum? I can think of no reason.

They are keen to tell the world how wonderful their magine is: same can certainly not be said of their forum which is dry, dusty and very under utilised.

Planemike

Peter Gristwood

4th Apr 2012, 13:19

I've met some of the top brass and they are by no means swivel-eyed control freaks.

What the LAA is, though, is a band of 'gentlemen amateurs' doing a great job on a shoestring. I mean amateur in the good sense of the word, by the way, putting in great effort for the love of the thing.

However, what is needed is a much more professional approach, but I'm not sure many of the membership would agree with me.

Steve N

4th Apr 2012, 14:18

Hi Peter, A reminder this thread is about the forum not LAA as an organisation. A massive amount of work has already and continues to be done by volunteers to professional standards inside LAA.

I think "gentlemen amateurs" may have applied to the PFA but is an out of date description for the current LAA board of directors. There are some very talented individuals working for us who I doubt members could afford were they to charge the market rate for their time.

Anyone that thinks PFA --> LAA has just been a name change has not been paying attention. LAA has been able to expand both it's fleet and remit because CAA see a safe (and businesslike) pair of hands at both engineering level (paid professionals) and board level (volunteer professionals).

Peter Gristwood

4th Apr 2012, 14:30

I think "gentlemen amateurs" may have applied to the PFA but is an out of date description for the current LAA board of directors. There are some very talented individuals working for us who I doubt members could afford were they to charge the market rate for their time.

Steve

That was my very point. A professional organisation wouldn't rely on that much goodwill. My use of the term 'amateur' means exactly that and is not meant to downplay their contribution

You and I have both sat in on NC meetings so we know very well how that works as well........:zzz:

I take your point about the thread being about the forum, but you can't look at the way the communications, including the LAA forum, operate without looking how the LAA operates itself

stickandrudderman

4th Apr 2012, 16:56

As the starter of this thread I want to re-iterate that I AM NOT unhappy with the LAA, on the contrary I think they, on the whole, do an excellent job.
The FORUM, which is populated mostly by members and not those that work for the LAA, is a wasteland. Go take a look and see if you can find any posts from younger members asking questions like, "can I build an aeroplane and fly it across the channel" or "can I learn to fly in an LAA aeroplane?" or "Can I fly in class D airspace in a permit aeroplane?"
All questions likely to be posed by someone new to light aviation and all questions the like of which we regularly see on here but never see on the LAA forum.
It's indicative of a forum that does not encourage new and ignorant posters, and I use the word "ignorant" in its purest sense, not in a derogatory sense.
Many people, myself included, have benefited enormously from the shared knowledge exhibited here on pprune and on the flyer forum but I doubt the same can be said of the LAA forum.
I am genuinely concerned that the net result will be a missed opportunity to cultivate the next generation of GA pilots.
We all know that GA is taking a legislative and beaurocratic battering at the moment and we need a collective to profer our views. That collective is a diminishing resource and the LAA should be more pro-active in addressing this.
I am sorry that Rod1 has felt the need to withdraw his future co-operation on the LAA forum but only those that make the rules can be blamed for that.

rans6andrew

4th Apr 2012, 20:10

I am a bit surprised that Rod1 thought the permission to use a nom de plume would keep his real identity a secret. I spent just a few minutes with the usual "aircraft" search tool and a quick Google search and figured out who he was almost the first time I saw his "handle" on a forum.

I didn't feel the need to spill the beans, not my style, but I was interested in finding out enough to be sure that there was some merit in the advice he was giving. There are too many "experts" falling over themselves to help when they know less than nothing about the subject in hand. If you don't even know who they are or what experience they have, how can you decide whether to trust the info they spout?

Rans6....

I'm sure you can all figure out who I am and what I fly in the real world,....

mikehallam

4th Apr 2012, 21:14

Well Andrew,

I guess that has to be a Rans (S)6 then !

(So easy with an apposite handle).

mikehallam.

patowalker

5th Apr 2012, 07:57

I guess that has to be a Rans (S)6 then !

Nope. That would be too easy. :)

Genghis the Engineer

5th Apr 2012, 08:38

6 of one, half a dozen of the other I think.

I've been involved in leisure aviation for most of my adult life, both on a hobby and professional basis.

I've had attempts to bribe me - which was solveable by referring to the right authorities because somebody could not do that anonymously. I've had threats sent to my home - which was inavoidable because as an employed professional I couldn't be anonymous.

And I've been approached by people from CAA, LAA and AAIB at various times because of things I'd posted, as Genghis, on Pprune - which shows clearly that if you are going to say anything meaningful regularly, there really is no true anonymity. On the other hand it is very hard to formally hold me to task for anything I say as Genghis, which is the reason I'm not going to give my real name on Pprune, where my identity is and has been for years as GTE and I'm quite happy to be identified as such.

But on the BMAA forum I use my real name, and if I was a member of the LAA forum I'd be quite happy to use that there also. Because I'm a member of both, and prefer to contribute to a members organisation as a named member.

G

wsmempson

5th Apr 2012, 11:33

Personally, I tend to prefer forums (Forae?) where people post under their own ID's, as the discussion tends to remain more civilised; I generally take the view that you should never say something to someone on a forum that you wouldn't be happy to say face-to-face over a drink in a bar.

Anonymity tends to allow the uncensored 'ID' to surface, with associated trollery, and also the thoroughly unpleasant flamings for which Pprune has become known. Hence, I post under my own name, and IMHE generally find that the most productive conversations come with people who do similarly. Conversely, those who go to the greatest lengths to conceal their identities, tend to talk the most vituperative, verbose rubbish - Snsguppy and Sternone, where are you now...?

However, there are circumstances when the ability to pose a question on a forum under a 'nom-de-plume' is very valuable - and, for the OP, might be damned essential; airworthiness, medical and possible enfringement posts are all such circumstances where the originator of the post may want to ask a question of other forumites, without being instantly fingered as the pilot with potential problems - where there maybe none!

Similarly, if I was wealthy or in the public eye, I'd want to be able to ask the normal questions that anyone would want to, without the baggage that goes with wealth or celebrity. If, say, Katie Price, wanted to be able to ask straightforward questions about aircraft, it would be nice to do so without collecting loads of replies concerning baloons.

I seriously question as to why that facility should be considered so worrying by the LAA and, if the origin of that censorship is an intollerance of criticism of the forum parent company, that is the WRONG motivation.

BackPacker

5th Apr 2012, 12:13

I've been involved in leisure aviation for most of my adult life, both on a hobby and professional basis.

To add my $0.02 to the discussion. I've been involved in aviation for about seven years now, but for me it's just a hobby. I am in no way professionally involved.

There are several situations where I would not want my hobby to become knowledge to the people I'm dealing with in my professional life. For instance my employer doesn't need to know how much time I spend on here during business hours - even though I put in the work he pays me for. Also, my customers, suppliers, business partners and other professional contacts I maintain as part of my job don't need to know about my hobby. Whether that's because it's seen as a rich mans game, or a dangerous game (aerobatics!) or something else doesn't really matter. I try to keep my professional life separate from my private life.

I don't mind regular PPRuNers on here to learn my real name. I have given enough clues in the past so that it should not be that hard to figure out, and you can always PM me.

But I do mind a professional contact doing a quick Google search of my name, and finding a few thousands postings on here. For the same reason I do not have an active Facebook account, and only very rarely Twittr. But there are some Usenet postings going back about 20 years, under my real name.

The internet never forgets. And Google will find it all.

(Deliberate misspelling of Twittr otherwise PPRuNe mangles it into PPRuNe.)

peterh337

5th Apr 2012, 12:26

Excellent points, in above 4 posts especially.

Another thing is that if you ask a question here (more in say the ATC or Prof Training forums) you get a lot of potential respondents looking up your profile and posting some ridiculing reply.

The CAA do read these forums constantly; it is a popular pastime there, in some quarters :)

Dawdler

5th Apr 2012, 17:25

There are some legitimate reasons for not divulging your correct name and contact details on what could be a forum accessible by the public. To give one example, some years ago I was webmaster for a club site, one of our committee was a public official working in trading standards. As a result he was in regular contact with the less than salubrious members of society. He requested that his details were removed from the site, I immediately complied with this and think that it was the right thing to do.

On the subject of the LAA itself, it is not the only such organisation in which the hierarchy is inpenetrable by ordinary members. Try getting elected to the committee of the Caravan Club (or it's main rival, the C&CC) if you are not a certain "type", who puts one self about in certain quarters. You are not even allowed to canvas support! (seen as electioneering, which simply "not done old boy") So these sort of organisations are not really interested in anything other than the status quo. In this the LAA is by no means unique. One must accept this if you want the benefit of mnembership.

robin

5th Apr 2012, 21:04

Spot on, dawdler

The LAA recruits from within. If you don't fit the current way of operating you won't get close to any decision-making post.

It means that it will stay as a kit-builders organisation and won't move beyond that

abgd

6th Apr 2012, 00:45

Not speaking specifically of the LAA, the amount of petty infighting and politics involved in many clubs and societies never ceases to amaze me.

stiknruda

6th Apr 2012, 08:44

I have to disagree quite vehemently with Dawdler and Robin. I had been a member and owner for several years.

I then built an aircraft from plans (not a kit!!). I had minor interaction (modifications) with PFA HQ in Shoreham and was not a member of a Strut.

My a/c won a prize at that year's rally and post prize giving, in the bar I had an honest and up-front chat about the state of the the service from PFA Engineering, with several of the "wheels".

A couple of weeks later I was contacted by my local Strut and asked to give a talk about building from scratch, which I was happy to do. Mere days later I received a call from CM, the then Chairman of the EC asking if I would stand in the upcoming election. I had never met CM or any of the EC, apart from one fellow in the bar at the Rally! I ran and was elected.

I was given a specific brief to prepare a report on a certain aspect of the organisation. I did and many of my recommendations were accepted and acted upon. I am not a committee kind of guy and the time involvement coupled with my recently divorced status caused me to resign in the last year of my term.

My experience varies enormously from Robin and Dawdler's.

One can get involved and one can change things! Permit turn arounds now happen in days not weeks!!!

Stik

peterh337

6th Apr 2012, 09:40

the amount of petty infighting and politics involved in many clubs and societies never ceases to amaze me.

Yeah... should see the local model plane flying club :)

There is a strong element of character-based self-selection, facilitated by the voulnteer nature of these organisations meaning that very few capable individuals put themselves forward to start with.

So you often get an aggressive/arrogant "personality" in charge; often from certain high public profile professions well known for employing that kind of profile :)

BackPacker

6th Apr 2012, 10:02

The worst people to have in a volunteer club, in my experience, are actually the CV builders.

At least the type Peter describes is someone who wants to do something for the club. Whether the rest of the club wants to head in the same direction is a different matter, but at least there is some movement.

But I have been on the board of various clubs where young adults, typically university students, would apply, give a speech at the general assembly, get elected for a term of three years, and then find out that there's actually work to do when you're member of the board. And not all of that work is visible, rewarding, or directly related to the cause of the club.

(At one of the clubs it took us about six months to get the garbage disposal sorted - for some reason all the contracts with the municipality were wrong, mislaid, in the wrong name, or there was confusion over which bin belonged to which neighbor. Sorting that out is not the kind of job you apply for as a member of the board, but a necessity nevertheless.)

So they may pull their weight for a few months, then find that their CV has been built enough. They stop doing whatever they were doing, but still occupy that seat for the next few years. And all that time the other board members have to step in, either motivating/threatening/bullying that member into doing whatever they're supposed to be doing, or doing it themselves. And of course these members don't quit (looks bad on their CV) and you can't get them removed either without a very lengthy process involving the general assembly. It's very frustrating.

vee-tail-1

6th Apr 2012, 12:08

Have just posted this on the LAA forum ... will be interesting to have responses from fellow LAA members.

Hmnnn…
There are two very active aviation websites used in the UK: “PPrUNe” and “FLYER”.
Both cover the aviation scene in depth with GA being the main focus for Flyer.
In my experience aviators tend to be extrovert types with sometimes quite strong opinions on many controversial non flying subjects: E.g. Politics, gender, religion, immigration, etc, etc.
Again in my experience no one posts anything other than aviation related stuff on the various aviation forums, and that is how is ought to be.
However both Flyer and PPrUNe have non aviation sections where pilots can let off steam about controversial topics. “Jet Blast” on PPrUNe is certainly not the place to go if you are faint hearted … within reason almost anything goes and serious amounts of hot air get released. I have huge admiration for the mods on that site, they consistently get the balance right to maintain order without destroying the debate.
“Non Aviation Stuff” on FLYER is rather different in that it has definite ‘no go zones’ reflecting the left leaning views of the owner. Two resident lawyers and a heavyweight mod ensure that any posts that do not fit the party line are promptly removed. Fair enough, it’s their train set and they can set the rules. Within certain boundaries however it is still possible to let off quite a bit of hot air here as well.
So where am I going in this message? Well shoot me down in flames if you like, but it seems to me that a similar non aviation section to discuss controversial topics might be appropriate here on the LAA forum. Not the same as the two above but more on the lines of the ‘House of Lords’ as compared to the rowdy ‘Commons’. Use of real names tends to make posters think before posting, and avoid personal insults and innuendoes. Polite interchange with reasoned rebuttal can actually change opinions, where loud mouthed rants and insults simply harden opinion.
Anyway it’s just a suggestion to liven up a rather underused forum, and I will go away and hide if the general opinion is it’s rubbish.

robin

6th Apr 2012, 12:21

A sensible idea, but I think I'll wait and see what Brian Hope says.

stickandrudderman

6th Apr 2012, 16:55

Nothing wrong with the idea but not sure why the LAA forum needs it when you've got the two sites you mention already.
My contention is that the LAA forum should be THE place to go for AVIATION information but it's not.

muffin

6th Apr 2012, 19:10

I was a member of a national hobby interest society for many years. They were very similar to the PFA/LAA in structure and philosophy. The best phrase I heard that sums up most of these organisations is a "self perpetuating oligarchy".

peterh337

6th Apr 2012, 19:43

The "non-aviation" proposal is quite funny in a way. The Socata owners group at socata.org had that for some time and (to cut a long story short) a lot of people got fed up with the moderation there and broke off and set up their own "TB Lounge" which was by invitation only. I think it is still running, but there was almost no aviation discussion in it.

I don't know whether Americans are more sensitive to "religious stuff" but I have found some US forums automatically delete any post containing the sequence of letters H E L L. So if you (innocently) write "hellishly", your post disappears, and it can take a while to discover why :)

In the Socata group one had people posting stuff like Jewish jokes and some people got incredibly hot under the collar about it.

Now, all that stuff is gone and they have two forums for "jokes"; both are moderated (by an ex Brit who owns the whole site) but one is more "liberal" and to gain access you have to sign a form in which you confirm that you accept you may be offended. I've never been there; the internet is full of that stuff, if you don't have a life.

I got booted out of socata.org several years ago for upsetting several Americans, plus one Brit C182 owner :) , but I still read it and it is sad how it has gone totally downhill. Not the non-aviation content (for which I care little; the internet is packed with fora on which one can let off steam if one needs that for his life to be "complete" and I don't post in either Jet Blast nor in the Flyer non-av forum) but the aviation content which is now little more than totally banal sycophantic posts. The European pilots (who probably number 50% of TB sales) mostly disappeared from the site as it got taken over by a bunch of bible carrying Americans with zero SOH who for the most part can barely write more than 3 lines, none of which will carry any useful information.

So there is a tie between heavy non-aviation content moderation, and killing off aviation discussions.

I think Flyer needs to be more careful than p p r u n e about moderation because it owns a printed magazine whose publisher is an obvious target for litigation, whereas p p r u n e has the "due diligence" defence of offering to delete stuff which somebody objects to and submits evidence of it being false. And anyway it is rather hard to libel somebody who is not using their real name... Plus a printed mag has to be aspirational / positive which does not go well with a forum where e.g. products are slagged off.

I think that a successful aviation forum needs to be like Usenet was i.e. anonymous and very lightly moderated. Usenet was great in that you could killfile people in the client software, so obvious idiots' posts were not visible (to you) after that. One could also mod to the extent of deleting posts / banning posters who do nasty personal attacks.

I think that - apart from certain mods on this site having apparently weird agendas, and I am not talking about the PF forum - this site gets it largely right.

But I think forums as a whole are on the decline, because they have been around about 10-15 years now and are in decline across the board. Most people with useful stuff to say have said it and moved on. With "society" moving to Iphone-posted banal one-liner messages for everything, I don't see things getting better.

Dawdler

7th Apr 2012, 23:54

Genghis the Engineer

8th Apr 2012, 08:22

Peter's illustration of "automatic" moderation was alive and well on the Sky Formula one forum (now defunct). There it was taken to the extreme. for example a perfectly acceptable word like "analysis" was modded out because of the first four letters. Some systems of moderation "suck" (but I'm forgetting myself, that word wouldn't have got through either)!

I once got this very badly wrong when I was in the middle of a robust conversation with a colleague who worked for a large organisation. The colleague was an old friend, so I felt it appropriate to email him saying that something he'd done had "really f*****d me up" - sometimes you do that when you know somebody well. Unfortunately it turns out that certain words got emails in that organisation automatically get re-routed to the intended recipient's line manager.

He nearly got sacked, and our friendship was severely dented. Not nice.

G

wsmempson

8th Apr 2012, 08:54

A couple of years ago, an email sent to a friend of mine who worked at a swiss bank, was bounced for use of unacceptable language, and could have got my chum into trouble - however the key word which caused all the trouble was contained within a line where I recounted that a the son of an ex-colleague had just graduated "summa cum laude".

Not for nothing are computers known as 'idiot savant'.

stiknruda

8th Apr 2012, 09:52

Years ago I was helping out in a VERY large organisation - a colleague had been tasked to work out why the population of a large area of Lincolnshire had totally failed to respond to an attractive mail-shot offer that the rest of the Great Britain were clamouring to accept.

It took him a few days to pinpoint it: the profanity-checker on the centralised print server farm had deleted all letters to:

Scunthorpe

robin

9th Apr 2012, 21:00

I see the LAA loyalists have dived in to maintain the status quo and ensuring the kit-builders win out.

Sad....

mary meagher

9th Apr 2012, 22:14

How could a thread on the Light Aircraft Association forum be so amusing and apropos? My late night entertainment before turning in is to look something up on PPRuNe and join in when inspired....heard about PP from the newspapers, back when Capt. Sullenberger, who was formerly a gliding instructor, made a good arrival after cooking a pair of Canada Geese in his turbines....

But being a bird of ancient and decaying brain, new to the internet, pressed the wrong button and displayed my true identity by mistake instead of the handsome pseudenom I had contrived.....o well. Only once or twice, when flamed or insulted, did I wish I had some way to hide. And even though I would like to be rude to some people, you have to think twice before pressing the send button, which is good discipline anyhow.

PP is great value and good fun, and talks about flying, which is what I really care about. If there were anywhere near as good a site about gliding I would go there as well....

Preview Post is my motto....

stickandrudderman

10th Apr 2012, 07:05

I see the LAA loyalists have dived in to maintain the status quo and ensuring the kit-builders win out.

To be fair there was a few posters who tried to be supportive but yes, the LAA forum has returned to its slumber with the status quo returned.

I have written to a board member who has promised to take the matter up with the board in May, so let's see if they have anything intelligent and constuctive to say about the matter.

patowalker

10th Apr 2012, 07:36

I have written to a board member who has promised to take the matter up with the board in May, so let's see if they have anything intelligent and constuctive to say about the matter.

Are you suggesting that supporting your proposal is the only intelligent and constructive outcome?

stickandrudderman

10th Apr 2012, 07:42

If you are serious then that is not an intelligent post and indicative of the kind of response that I've come to expect from the LAA forum.
I am suggesting that it would be nice to have an intelligent dialogue with someone in authority in order that both parties can come to a position of understanding, if not agreement.

If, on the other hand, you are attempting to be sarcastic:

:D:D:D:D:D:D:)

patowalker

10th Apr 2012, 08:06

If you are serious then that is not an intelligent post and indicative of the kind of response that I've come to expect from the LAA forum.

Well, I never claimed to be intelligent. But you must have known that, because I post on the LAA forum under my own name.

wsmempson

10th Apr 2012, 08:42

AS I understand things, the LAA now has, as part of it's remit, the duties of a national regulatory body, as it has taken on the task of certifying several classes of aircraft.

Surely it is now obliged to operate in a businesslike, meritocratic and transparent fashion, as opposed to functioning like a private members club? I'm pretty sure that in this role there is a degree of central government oversight required in order to make sure that members and their aircraft aren't subject to some sort of mysterious 'black-ball' on the grounds that the membership commitee simply don't like them?:hmm:

robin

10th Apr 2012, 09:44

Spot on.

The LAA Board can remove membership from anyone if, after investigation, they deem them to have acted contrary to the standards of the Association. There is no appeal. Given that membership is a requirement for a Permit, this could cause problems for an owner, though there have been special arrangements when this has happened in the past.

But your point is well made. A regulatory authority cannot continue to act as a private members association can. They have to develop a thicker skin.
Personally, I feel that the LAA will eventually split into 2 parts - the regulatory arm and a reborn PFA looking after the other 'fun' aspects.

Dawdler

10th Apr 2012, 13:33

There is no doubt that the PFA and latterly the LAA have given a great deal of support to those building a kit plane. This is as it should be as they are responsible for issuing a permit to fly for that very aircraft. That said the terms Popular Flying Association and Light Aircraft Assocition, would suggest that the organisation is more encompassing than being just for kit builders. Perhaps as the previous poster has suggested the regulatory arm should be (partially) divorced from the more social side of the organisation.

It does beg the question whether the LAA is really a light aircraft association or one to promote and regulate kit building of aircraft. One wonders how an aircraft owner whose plane is now no longer eligible for a CofA will be recieved within the arms of the organisation. Perhaps it all works well and is fine and dandy, but it does seem that the non-conformist might be up against it a little. But this may also be the case in many organisations. The non-conformist, as suggested bythe term, tends not to conform and this may make the officers uncomfortable. Suggestions that he/she may make may not be to the taste of those in charge and therefore may be resisted.

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 13:50

I've had good sight of LAA's support of a vintage aeroplane transferred onto a PtF (and its owner), and I can't fault it.

On the other hand as an LAA owner with a Private CofA aeroplane, and the support I've had over problems with that were pretty minimal.

By comparison, the BMAA (which I'm also a member of, and generally prefer if I want to achieve something) provides promotion and support for all microlight aeroplanes - even if they are administered by the LAA. An attitude I find very wholesome.

G

peterh337

10th Apr 2012, 13:54

I don't know the answer to this, but how does all this work in the USA?

Being N-reg, I use US pilot forums for pointers on specific technical issues, and I don't detect this "them and us" division out there. I get the US Flying and US AOPA magazines (the first I pay for and the second I get by paying the US AOPA membership) and again they seem to cover the whole spectrum.

ISTM that US AOPA is an effective well organised lobbying organisation for the whole lot.

It has often been said that the same cannot be done here because US AOPA gets 10x more money than UK AOPA and can thus employ professional people - and indeed this is self evident when comparing the individuals in question. I've seen Phil Boyer give a very simple presentation after which the Eurocontrol and EASA chaps in the front row slinked away before anybody could ask them to stand up and answer difficult questions. The rather more local rep was enjoying a little post-lunch doze.

But that cannot be the whole story because if you put together the various bodies here (AOPA, BGA, LAA, BMAA, whatever else?) there should be enough money to get it set up properly?

The old joke is that if you put 4 UK pilots on an island, and leave them for a year, you will end up with four associations, two splinter groups, and four pilot forums each with twenty members all using nicknames :) And I think this is true.

Or is it that far too many people in the GA scene here are desperately trying to hang in there, on an inadequate budget, and thus end up bickering the whole time? The VFR community would happily sell its "IFR grandmother" just to get 5p off the next landing fee, etc.

Peter Gristwood

10th Apr 2012, 14:06

On the other hand as an LAA owner with a Private CofA aeroplane, and the support I've had over problems with that were pretty minimal.

Quite - and that was the main reason I gave up on the LAA. The magazine, though well produced, is very much a home-builder's newsletter.

They have some very professional and dedicated people, but I've always felt that they have missed a trick by not being more welcoming to members of the CofA fleet. I had hopes when the LAA was formed, but ......

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 14:37

I must admit I never saw LAA as anything other than a name change; I've not detected any real cultural or organisational shift. And to be fair, I don't recall being asked as a member to support anything more than a name change.

G

patowalker

10th Apr 2012, 14:50

By comparison, the BMAA (which I'm also a member of, and generally prefer if I want to achieve something) provides promotion and support for all microlight aeroplanes - even if they are administered by the LAA. An attitude I find very wholesome.

Funny you should say that: there are some who claim you encouraged them to move from the BMAA to the PFA. :)

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 15:02

Funny you should say that: there are some who claim you encouraged them to move from the BMAA to the PFA. :)

That was entirely personal.

G :E

Peter Gristwood

10th Apr 2012, 15:11

Genghis

From the period

The PFA became the LIGHT AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION (LAA) on 1 January 2008. Activities and aims remain unchanged, but objectives have been broadened to include all classes of recreational aviation.

. The name change to LAA merely highlights our expanding role in the GA sector. It is no longer solely an organisation of aircraft builders, though that will always be one of its core activities

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 15:28

It was surely never "solely" an organisation of aircraft builders - if only from the huge number of spotters who joined to attend the rally, and the number of people who bought their aeroplanes second hand.

The degree of competition with BMAA has been, err, interesting - after the initial overlap of amateur built microlights (where for example you have to look up where a particular Shadow or MW5 sits), there was increasing competition over type approved microlights (LAA moving into BMAA territory) and amateur built VLA category aeroplanes (BMAA moving into LAA territory). Both have been at times confusing and stressful, but on the other hand they could only really compete on standards of service and on the whole the community have all benefited from that.

This does, perhaps strengthen the case for a BMAA/LAA merger, but frankly the LAA council needs a severe attitude change if that is to ever happen. We all recall that in the middle of the last negotiations on that topic, LAA signed a contract on its new headquarters and poached BMAA's Chief Technical Officer. That unilateral action caused massive ill feeling at BMAA and completely killed any chance of a merger for some years - although collaboration in other areas has come along nicely.

But the CofA involvement remains, let's face it, minimal. That does seem set to change, and I think that the whole community - from flying clubs to the CAA, will see substantial benefits in LAA taking on orphan or vintage aeroplanes such as Tiger Moths or Chipmunks, or even foreign Annex II aeroplanes that have marginal support from their TC holders and CAA don't really want to deal with either. We all watch with interest - I'd certainly be delighted to bring my Annex II CofA aeroplane to LAA if I had the choice (which last I asked, I didn't).

G

robin

10th Apr 2012, 16:47

Never solely home-builders, though you wouldn't know that from the magazine.

I'm happy to stay CofA myself and I doubt the LAA would ever be resourced to take on the whole of the light GA fleet, although they'd get a lot more members that way.

Of course, there'll be hell to pay when ex CofA syndicates realise they have all to pay a membership fee to the LAA! ;);)

Genghis the Engineer

10th Apr 2012, 17:09

Compared to the cost of the annual and CofA renewal on our aircraft, not to mention the inflated cost of CofA spares on a vintage aeroplane, LAA membership would be a dream.

Some stuff does belong with CAA, and some other stuff with BMAA and BGA, but there's a lot that could transfer to LAA with nothing but good coming of it.

G

'Chuffer' Dandridge

10th Apr 2012, 20:17

The magazine, though well produced, is very much a home-builder's newsletter.

Only if you want to build an RV or some other plastic fantastic.......

The LAA/PFA have always been the same. I've been a member on and off for 30 years.

It will always be the same with 't'committee' mentality.

PS Has anyone else wondered who the new CEO is?

stickandrudderman

19th Apr 2012, 07:21

Sorry to drag this up again but I think my point has just been proved over on the LAA forum.

A new member has posted this:

I've very recently started my project - a Sherwood Ranger. I've looked back through these posts as far as 2008 but can't find anything on this type. Does anybody else own one/built one/still building one that would like to offer any hints and tips for the build. This is my first build project, I have a reasonable amount of engineering knowledge but other than enthusiasm, there's a lot I don't know. In fact I can honestly say I don't even know what I don't knows so far!! So, if anybody has any advice, I'd love to hear it!

And has had two replies from a single contributor, both pointing him at other forums where he might get the information he seeks!

I expect one of three types of response here:
1. "Stop whinging and get a life!"
2. Apathy
3. Lots of LAA members who read this forum will now go to the thread I have highlighted and post lots of advice for the newcomer in order to prove me wrong.

Personally I hope it's "3" as the net result will be that the LAA forum will have served a useful function at last!