Apache ground scrape.

[Tiger G]

Here's a new (me thinks) vid for you to peruse and comment on:

LiveLeak.com - AH-64 Apache Crash Afghanistan after crazy maneuver.

As always, if it's an oldy, feel free to delete.

[jayteeto]

Easy one for the Board of Enquiry!

[ShyTorque]

Well that was silly, wasn't it?

That same manoeuvre, badly flown in a heavy aircraft, has killed or injured many helicopter occupants in the past and damaged many airframes for those slightly more lucky.

[Teddy Robinson]

and what, exactly, was the tactical value of that ?

[Torque Tonight]

Hadn't seen that one before. Attempts to show off have been a major cause of crashes since the dawn of aviation. You don't look quite so cool once you spanked your aircraft in. How embarrassing. :ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

The title on the Live Leak site says;
AH-64 Apache helicopter crash in Sharana, Afghanistan. The pilot was executing a maneuver known as "return to target". No one on the ground was killed and both pilots survived, possible criminal charges were laid.

I'm reminded of the saying;

'You start off with a big bag of luck and an empty bag of experience.
The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you run out of luck.'

[500N]

"No one on the ground was killed"....

It looks like the person who seemed to be hit just before the Apache spanked the ground was almost decapitated. He didn't sem to get up in a hurry.

.
.

[SunderlandMatt]

Holy $hit Private Pyle!

Didn't hear about this one but aside from apportioning blame (pretty self evident here one would think), I'm pleased to hear no one was killed.

Hopefully will be used as a demonstration that a wing over when heavy and high, is never as easy as back at the school house.

[StopStart]

Think it parted his hair....... :ooh:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h64/judgesaw/apache2.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h64/judgesaw/apache3.jpg

[500N]

StopStart,

Thanks

If I was one of the two in the aircraft or the guy on the ground,
I think buying a lotto ticket might be in order.
.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Really surprised no-one was injured, if it had just continued it's slide then OK but look at T+30 secs and you can see the Apache rear up and climb with no tail rotor authority to around 75-100 feet before returning rapidly to earth :uhoh:

[Airborne Aircrew]

You lot surprise me...

Since it hasn't been said yet...

It'll buff out...:}

[Roadster280]

No coffee, no biscuits.

[Hueymeister]

What a twit! ****!

[PPRuNeUser0179]

just my opinion,and i am only a student rotorwing pilot,but it seems to me that he entered vortex ringstate.i guess the safety speed in an apache to avoid vortex state isaround 50-60KTAS.Care to correct if im wrong...

[deeceethree]

What a numpty. That could so easily have resulted in deaths on the ground and in the aircraft. Is this particular spot (Sharana, Afghanistan) somewhat elevated? Doesn't look like the pilot (loose term ..... in this instance) considered available performance (or lack of it), never mind that it was a pointless manoeuvre to begin with. :rolleyes:

[Two's in]

The pilot was executing a maneuver known as "being a complete farkwit".

Wazzing and zooming - plain and simple.

[aluminium persuader]

Whose was it? US, Dutch, other?

[dead_pan]

What a nob-head. And now he's famous. Is life really that dull in Afghan to necessitate such moronic stunts?

When I watched the vid I thought the ground scrape referred to the 'miss' of the building during his first pass. Couldn't quite believe what he did next.


It'll buff out...

Aha, the regulation joke. In reply, yes it will (the ground scrape that is - a few shovels of snow should do the trick). The heli however may require a bit more work.

[OvertHawk]

crappy rate of climb to start off with - poss due to a/c weight and performance. Also - no wind to lean into on the recovery - note limp-dick windsock beside camera.

Bet that was the longest three seconds of his life! He's lucky it was not the last!

Hope he's got a good lawyer otherwise i foresee some time at Ft Leavenworth in his future.

Glad no-one was hurt (more by luck than judgement :ugh:)
OH

[Wirbelsturm]

The heli however may require a bit more work.

Can't we send them our beloved former Defence Minster Des Brown? His appropriate ministerial prior training as a Jaguar panel beater could actually come in useful on something with a defence theme for once? :E

but it seems to me that he entered vortex ringstate

Errrr nope, he ran out of height after a manoeuvre that he obviously hadn't taken his altitude/weight into account for! A wingover is a fairly benign manouevre in a helo as long as you remember that you need the power/height for the pull out. Anyone else remember the 705 McDonald/Douglas Gazelle????

[airborne_artist]

A rotary mate used to get the odd funny look when wearing his special tie in the Wardroom at CU (as a Middy). He'd been on a pre-join acquaint and the Wasp pilot took him for a jolly. A wingover went wrong and they had to swim for it. And he still joined :\

[DavidWoodward]

I'll wait until someone posts the METAR before I pass judgement...

[Hueymeister]

T W A T. That's better. Yep looks high up, initial climb 'mushed' due to high density alt, that set up simply set the scene for the rest. They were all very lucky that no one got badly hurt.

[Beaver man]

Ooops! Bolleaux!

[SASless]

We don't send Pilots like these to Leavenworth....there is a far worse place.....Fort Rucker Alabama....and make Standards Evaluation Pilots out of them....if they are Warrant Officers. If they are Commissoned Officers they make General and really get to show their hind ends!

What's the fuss about....it was only an Apache....we got a thousand of the things on the shelf!

It is not like it was one of the Rupert's doing this!

[tartare]

Serious question here - the aerodynamic reason for the crash was likely - approach at too high a rate of decent - enter into vortex ring state (essentially churning up the air so much with the rotors that there's nothing solid enough for them to bite into, to develop the lift needed to remain airborne?) - end result, aircraft falls like stone?
VRS being the helicopter equivalent of a fixed wing fully developed aerodynamic stall?

[teeteringhead]

Serious answer tartare - no - more geographical than aerodynamic. For many reasons - some quoted above - the manoeuvre as flown would have taken x feet to recover.

Aircraft is at <x feet - result: misery!

[Bigt]

`Old pilots and bold pilots` springs to mind

[Wirbelsturm]

tartare,

To enter vortex ring you need, in general overview, three conditions. Low airspeed relative to the current wind/flight path, rate of descent and pulling power.

As you state 'churning up the air' involves inducing such a return flow from the rotor tip votice that energised air returns to the top of the disc and enters the disc in an accelerated state thus aerodynamically reducing the angle of attack of the blade as your 'induced flow' is degraded by previously accelerated air. Therefore requiring more and more pitch to reduce the rate of descent. This leads to increased votices at the tips, increased vertical downward inflow which leads to reduced aerodymanic angle of attack which leads to stall.

The mupppet in the cockpit of the Apache attempted a wing over to approach manouevre at what looks to be a relatively high altitude base. Obviously taking an assumption or two (DA and gross weight) what he did have was still air and, judging by the distance the beast travelled across the snow, relatively high airspeed in a descent profile that would have kept the helo well out of it's own rotor down wash.

Vortex ring? Very, very unlikely.

Having flown in Arctic and Antarctic areas what I see as more likely, even though it is sunny and not flat light, is a lack of depth perception to a flat white monotone surface leading to 'ground rush' and the 'O F**k' state.

Snow field operations have inherent dangers of their own!

[SASless]

Lots of stuff to see....tents, people, structures, rock out croppings.....what I see is a lot of "What If'ing" by folks that don't know squat about what really happened! The ones that do know something are not being listened to by those who only think they know something.

[Wirbelsturm]

Lots of stuff to see....tents, people, structures, rock out croppings

Same as the Lynx from Endurance flight that was load lifting for a day and, whilst returning to the ship, with a clear line of sight to it, lots of equipment etc. flew into a snow bank at 120Kts.

Whats hindsight obvious often isn't obvious at the time and, if it isn't CGI, the fly boy would be potentially under the influence of tunnel vision at this point.

Irrespective, a poorly planned manouvre from the outset.

(The Lynx pilot survived only because the observer had clipped a cargo lash to the harness guide hoop on the top of the Lynx seat to stop it flapping about! Lucky boy)

Wirbelsturm (4500hrs rotary)

[Bubblewindow]

I'm not too familiar with the Apache variants but isn't this an older variant (ie not Longbow). Who flies this variant today? Netherlands?
Or is the video old or as stated fake ?

BW

[chinook240]

Bishops Court

[Airborne Aircrew]

I hope it is for real or ABC News is going to look pretty silly... Their breaking news report is on the front page of Yahoo! right now...

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/dramatic-military-helicopter-crash-caught-camera-212602012--abc-news.html)

[airborne_artist]

I hope it is for real or ABC News is going to look pretty silly... Their breaking news report is on the front page of Yahoo! right now...

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/dramatic-military-helicopter-crash-caught-camera-212602012--abc-news.html)



Not just ABC News who'd look silly:

"A spokesperson for the U.S.-led International Security Assistance Force told ABC News the video was taken Feb. 6 in the Paktika province in Afghanistan. Remarkably, no one on the ground was injured and the aircrew survived, the spokesperson said.

There was no enemy activity in the area and Army is currently investigating the incident, he said."

[dmanton300]

I'm not too familiar with the Apache variants but isn't this an older variant (ie not Longbow). Who flies this variant today? Netherlands?
Or is the video old or as stated fake ?

It's an AH-64D, as you can see from the extended EFABS. The US and Netherlands don't fly their Deltas with the Longbow installed in Afghanistan, the UK do.

[dead_pan]

For what its worth, the Daily Wail and Mirror are also running with this story on their web sites. I think its fair to say the video's authenticity has been verified, in current newspeak.

Anyway, back to the PPRuNe B of I. I think the ground was clearly at fault in this accident, recklessly rushing upwards at that poor, unsuspecting helicopter.

[Bubblewindow]

It's an AH-64D, as you can see from the extended EFABS. The US and Netherlands don't fly their Deltas with the Longbow installed in Afghanistan, the UK do.

Cheers for clearing that up. Don't see many round these parts .

BW

[John Farley]

The rotor disk doesn't bend at all in the impact. Wouldn't the rotors have drooped down and severed the boom in the impact?


That is what I would expect FROM a CGI

In a real case you can be sure that he would have as much RPM and pitch on as he could muster.

[BEagle]

As I know nothing whatsoever about hecilo....helcotpi....rotary wing aircraft, I can state without fear of contradiction that this was obviously gross negligence. Because I know best....

Yours,

Ba$tard Bill

[glojo]

dead Pan by name dead pan by humour :ok::D:D
I think the ground was clearly at fault in this accident, recklessly rushing upwards at that poor, unsuspecting helicopter.

Thank you for making my evening :ok:

[teeteringhead]

Bishops Court ... but at least that was hardly career-limiting .....;)

[chinook240]

... but at least that was hardly career-limiting .....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif
A hell of a lot further than me :ok:

[SASless]

I wonder what it would take to droop Mr on a 64 with both engines at max chat? I have done it with a CH-47....and it ain't pretty when it happens! It is for sure PIOO!











Before you ask....Pilot Induced OH Ouch!

[Rigex]

- and here's me thinking that they only "flew" due to the Earth rejecting them!:bored:

[Thomas coupling]

Eclan: You've got me thinking now :hmm:
The more I watch this vid, the more suspicious I am becoming. The "attempted" pull out before he belly flops on initial contact doesn't look right, the coning of the disc and the pirouetting thereafter - relatively 'intact' (minus tail rotor)...all begins to look a little "odd":suspect:

This vid went national this morning across the Uk - hope it is for real:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:


Wirbelsturm: I remember the 705 "pancake" event - I was there when they cam back into the crewroom afterwards. :D
Didn't McD lose the tip of his little finger because it was crushed under the collective during the 'recovery'?
And why did they go grey at that age anyway?

[Wirbelsturm]

TC,

I don't remember McD's injury, I do remember the boll*cking they got though! It became legend for many a Friday happy hour for years after!

Didn't it lead to everyone being a little more circumspect about wing overs (and Cab weight, they were both big chaps!) and the introduction of the 200' 'hard deck' over the Predannick excercise areas?

McD I seem to recall was a strawberry mivvie at 750 for years and CD went on to become the SPLOT of 820 in the 90's so it didn't go too bad!

Happy memories! :eek:

[Unchecked]

Seems genuine enough to me, is exactly how I'd imagine a mixture of Hi-DA/Low-Alt/tw@t-in-cockpit/Wingover to pan out. The sound of the apache rotor-disc gasping for air at the top of the manoeuvre says it all. Initially I thought the initial impact looked kosher but the out of control spiral at the end seemed a bit unreal. But rather than collapsing on first impact like a normal helo probably would, the apache is sturdy and crashworthy so probably bounced quite happily whilst the crew inside were probably a bit, shall we say, 'disorientated' ? Thereby inducing the subsequent spin.

IMHO & Conjecture.

[GreenKnight121]

The more I watch this vid, the more suspicious I am becoming. The "attempted" pull out before he belly flops on initial contact doesn't look right, the coning of the disc and the pirouetting thereafter - relatively 'intact' (minus tail rotor)...all begins to look a little "odd"

As mentioned by airborne_artist on page 2 of the thread we are in, the US military and spokesmen for the multi-national forces in Afghanistan are saying this is real... so you think they are lying?

Video: Investigation under way after American AH-64 Apache helicopter crashes in Afghanistan - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9160766/Investigation-under-way-after-American-AH-64-Apache-helicopter-crashes-in-Afghanistan.html)
An investigation is underway after extraordinary video footage emerged of an American Apache helicopter crash landing in Afghanistan.

ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) officials have indicated that the footage is of an incident that occurred in Paktika province of Afghanistan.

Two AH-64 helicopters were supporting an ISAF patrol gathering airdropped supplies when one of the aircraft crashed into the ground.

No one on the ground was injured and both members of the aircrew survived the accident which happened on February 6. The footage was only posted online 6 weeks later.

The cause of the crash is currently being investigated by the US Army but there were no reports of insurgent activity in the area at the time of the incident, suggesting mechanical failure or pilot error.

[sandozer]

Slight correction, the Royal Netherlands Air Force are equipped with the AH-64D. Not the Longbow variant, straight AH64Ds. They have no retrofit capability to Longbow.

[Heathrow Harry]

Now I know why the boss ran off an ex US Army Huey pilot for regularly pulling a similar stunt in the bush back in the '80's

he saw him do it once, made enquiries and found the guy did it every day and he was on the next flight out........

[Wwyvern]

Beagle.

Incoming PM.

Ww

[CAC Runaway]

Slight correction, the Royal Netherlands Air Force are equipped with the AH-64D. Not the Longbow variant, straight AH64Ds. They have no retrofit capability to Longbow.


Slight correction, they have Longbow aircraft just they are not fitted with the radar. There is more to being a Longbow Apache (Longbow is a radio net protocol) than having the FCR fitted. They can be fitted with the radar too but the RNLAF never bought any. The aircraft software has standard US Block 2 software so will take the FCR if fitted.... apart from that top post :ok:

[garyscott]

Got a feeling this may have taken a while to come out into the open.

Could well be the incident May 26th 2011. 1 Fatal.

ASN Aircraft accident 26-MAY-2011 Boeing AH-64D Apache (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=122755)

:(

[Ewan Whosearmy]

^^^^^

Not the same incident.

ISAF saying video was of *6 Feb* mishap, your report cites a mishap on *26 May*.

[garyscott]

True mate, but May 26 '11 is the only recorded AH-64 prang in the area of Sharana, Afghanistan? :confused:
And the markings on the bird in the video are from the same unit as the incident Apache in the link?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Hmm.

Yours was last year, Gary. This one was, apparently, shot this year. Assuming that's correct, the two incidents are not the same.

If that's not correct, you may be right.

[garyscott]

Either way, bad appraisal of conditions, poor pull-out, a hint of showboating = balls-up guaranteed. :ugh:

Kinda hoping it was CGI now . . .