Big brother is watching................ [Archive]

JTobias

16th Mar 2012, 17:33

All,

Today I landed at a hotel I regularly visit in Preston, Lancashire and on arrival I was asked to provide my full name and basic details of my flight as was my friend who also landed in his aircraft.

I've never been asked for my details at this location (or many others) and when we enquired as to why they required the information we were advised that it was a Police requirement.

This stirred my curiosity and the Manager offerred to show us the correspondence that he had received from the Lancashire constabulary. I regret not taking a copy of it, but basically, the hotel has been asked to provide details of any helicopters that land at their hotel during the run up period to the Olympics.

I'm not up to anything dodgy, so I have no real issues in supplying it, but I do feel slightly perturbed that my movements are potentially being recorded. I'm traditionally very pro-security but I'm having mixed feelings about it.

Any thoughts ?

Joel :ok:

Gordy

16th Mar 2012, 17:43

the hotel has been asked to provide details

Under what authority? Certainly on this side of the pond I would refuse to give the information. Of course over here we are protected by the constitution and Bill of Rights.

Even though you are not doing anything "dodgy", it is one more intrusion into your private life.

206 jock

16th Mar 2012, 17:59

I can say with reasonable certainly that the hotel has been visited by their local 'Project Pegasus' team, who are visiting every known place of GA activity - and probably put the fear of God into them. I had a recent visit from two very nice young ladies who came all the way from Luton, spent 20 minutes then left.

Here's (http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/0/EFC608255365BCF18025791B0035B4E0/$file/pegasus%20leaflet.pdf) a link to the GMP's Project Pegasus leaflet about it.

Make no mistake though: this is all about the Olympics.

nigelh

16th Mar 2012, 18:00

If you were not doing anything dodgy ...then why not ? There are plenty of dodgy things to do in helicopters you know !! I actually quite agree with you that it is disturbing ...just another nail in the coffin and it wont relax after the Olympics i bet .
I was told by the police that i must declare when i have a gun on board every time i call into Leeds for fuel, so they can come and check my licence .. .....now be aware that this is the opposite side of the public terminal .... On the basis that i want to be in and out in 10 mins, this didnt look very clever, as it would take them 30 mins to come around to see me ...
I told them that i refuse to do this as it would constitute a waste of police time in my book . ( Obviously the goodies will tell the police and then will ave the licence ...i imagine the baddies might just keep quiet ??...). I was then told i would be arrested if they found that i had landed and not informed them !!! For the next few weeks i studiously carried an empty gun case in and out of and around the helicopter waiting for them to pounce ....sadly they never noticed !!!!!!!!!!!!
Next time you land there say the purpose is to collect pornographic material and mind chhanging chemicals .....:D

Gordy

16th Mar 2012, 18:05

My question is this:

Under what authority do they have to collect this information? One assumes there are laws and rules of procedure....surely they cannot just make up rules?

nigelh

16th Mar 2012, 18:13

Gordy , your not from around here are you ...........!!

Helinut

16th Mar 2012, 18:58

Looked at from Blighty, no surprise about the initiative, but it does seem a bit premature, or would the excuse be that they are just practising? It will be interesting to see whether it goes away after the big event.

All sorts of rights are being suspended in the name of the Olympics. Small industries are being put at risk, lives disrupted. Woe betide anyone who seriously questions anything done in its name.

I hope it is worth it, but personally I will be keeping well clear.

Gordy asks a good question. I think the answer is that the rules are written so widely that an official can interpret almost any reaction as sufficiently subversive to make trouble for you, and warrant further "investigation".

Try making any comment about pointless, time-wasting, arbitrary, ineffectual security measures at our airports. You will be whisked away and spend a very uncomfortable time so they make their point and preserve their careers.

It is (or should be) all a question of balance, but CT security is the new "health and safety": no one is allowed to question anything done in its name no matter how marginal.

The irony is that we "oppose" terrorism because of its threat to our rights and freedoms like the right to free speech, including the right to complain about stupid rules. Terrorists can achieve their goals in more than one way.

I am just a number..........

JTobias

16th Mar 2012, 19:07

Gordy,

Technically they have no authority to ask, and there is no requirement for me to supply, it or even provide the correct information. This would then basically make a mockery of the whole thing (not unless they were a Police Officer)

It's not as if someone up to 'no good' is realistically going to provide the correct credentials, assuming of course they were stupid enough to arrive in such an attention drawing style, and in a public place.

I can see the conversation now.

Hotel Manager "Excuse me sir, would you mind answering a few questions about your machine gun-toting, missile laden helicopter. I'm going to need your name, point of departure and purpose of your journey "

Pilot "No problem, Osama bin Laden, departed from a secret location somewhere in the U.K and the purpose of my visit - Terrorism."

Hotel Manager "Thank you sir, enjoy your stay."

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Joel

CRAZYBROADSWORD

16th Mar 2012, 21:01

I have no problems with that at all if they want to know where I am and what I am doing 24/7 that's fine, which is what I said to the nice man from the CAA at Cheltneham today . But are they also at every train station and bus stop checking who is getting on and off and at every mosque to see if there is anything dodgy going on ?????

SilsoeSid

16th Mar 2012, 21:13

JT, I'm intrigued, did you book into the hotels landing site before you got there?

ShyTorque

16th Mar 2012, 21:42

Very recently, on booking a future landing at a hotel not far from there I was informed that I would need to fill out a GAR form at least two days in advance (a copy of which was sent to me by email), obviously requiring full details of the flight and persons on board, including passport numbers etc.

I asked which authority had demanded this and was told it was the local police. I refused, as this is not an international flight. The manager said that this would have to be checked with the police. It was checked out (!) and I was later told that I was correct.

misterbonkers

16th Mar 2012, 23:22

What utter ****e!!!!!!

Project Pegasus should be renamed Project Headless Chicken

As if Terrorist XYZ (no colloquialism as I've attended an EASA PC CRM Course) is gonna head for afternoon tea in a helicopter prior to committing a massive atrocity!!! God be with you. I fancy a reet nice brew n t'scones before we head off t'Stratford. Let's indulge ourselves before we meet all them t'virgins...

Get with the program PP (maybe aptly named afterall...!)

We've all seen what happens to a light helicopter when it loses an argument with the ground/a building i.e. helicopter disappears with a bang/flash. What about all those 40 tonne lorries and coaches and vans and cars in London? Or remote control planes or individuals? What about the subways/tubes/trains/buses? What about the waterways, cyclists, dog walkers, tourists.... etc etc.

My friend was recently visited by PP regarding his helicopter. During the 2 hours interrogation he was informed how he may be forced at gunpoint to fly his helicopter and commit various offences etc etc. Ironically as PP left he TOLD THEM about his firearms licence and the weapon(s) he had - they didn't even know about them!

It's all an absolute joke because they don't have a clue.

They are scared.

Terrorism wins again:mad:

Sad state of affairs.

BLUE
ARSE
FLIES

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

n5296s

17th Mar 2012, 00:20

I've always wondered about this business of forcing a pilot to do something at gunpoint - even more so in a heli. If the bad guys shoot the pilot they will certainly die without having completed their mission - so no virgins etc. Of course they may not be entirely rational. I guess it's a bluffing game and if I was on the wrong end of the gun maybe I'd go along quietly, even knowing that having helped them commit their atrocity they'd probably shoot me anyway. But still it doesn't survive a rational analysis.

(I can't comment on Project Pegasus since fortunately for me I'm 6000 miles away from the Olympics madness).

SilsoeSid

17th Mar 2012, 01:27

misterbonkers

17th Mar 2012, 08:03

Perhaps I was a little unclear; McDonalds in Euston by bus/tube for a £3 burger is certainly not a posh Hotel in Lancashire for afternoon tea by helicopter £25+landing fee...

Is there an equivalent of Project Pegasus (Project Heffer) getting every Happy Meal consumer to leave all their contact details (just in case!).

Prawn2king4

17th Mar 2012, 08:18

What’s with you guys?

The police are trying to do their job. You’d be the first to winge if by some chance you were the poor guy who was hijacked, or whatever. Or you were on the receiving end of whatever was planned. Of course the bad guys will find another way if they’re determined – or lucky. But why make it easy for them.

Put yourself in the position of whoever is responsible for aviation security prior to and during the Olympics. Would you consider helicopters a threat? Of course you would…

A quick check on the net shows 37 escape attempts from prisons using a helicopter. Two thirds were successful. And that list is far from complete.

I’m also dislike Big Brother – but sometimes methinks you protest too much.

misterbonkers

17th Mar 2012, 08:35

They're going about things the wrong way - there is clearly a distinct lack of aviation knowledge and they're asking people for information that makes no sense.

One friend that was visited was told they had problems getting hold of him to arrange a visit DESPITE his address being on G-INFO and despite his contact details being lodged with the CAA! Not knowing he had a firearms licence too? Come on! Is that modern day Policing at it's finest? How about asking a local helicopter flying school for contact details?

Another friend visited was not at home when they called so they asked lots of questions of his wife about him! They didn't know about his patriotic history with the armed forces against the Russians in Germany and terrorists in Northern Ireland. They were more interested in how many take-offs and landings he did each month - an issue more likely to lead to planning issues then terrorism!

Two GA pilots landed at a London aerodrome and we're told by visiting officers that they had committed an offence by not filing a GAR or requesting PPR - it was a local flight! The officers stood corrected.

ShyTorque

17th Mar 2012, 10:44

I’m also dislike Big Brother – but sometimes methinks you protest too much.

Easy for a retired pilot to say that and I disagree. I think sometimes we don't protest enough. If we agree to fill in a GAR on flights where there is no legal requirement, before you know it we'll be doing it for every flight, now and in the future.

I've had people aggressively demand to see my passport for an eight minute private flight from London Heliport to RAF Northolt! Yet there is absolutely no legal requirement for me to carry a passport, or even to hold a passport for internal flights within UK. My co-pilot challenged the demand and an immigration officer was immediately called. She asked us to repeat where we had flown in from and the information was repeated. Thankfully, she was more sensible and told the military person not to be so silly. Problem is, we have many people in posts of authority who do not have the intelligence to know the relevant aviation rules.

What's next, advance permission to drive to work ? Papieren, Bitte! :ugh:

SilsoeSid

17th Mar 2012, 10:56

Well said Prawn2king4 :D

So, let me get this right.
When some of you book out of an airfield for example, you (would) also refuse to give your details, either on the phone, face to face or over the radio before you lifted? Do you pre book in to a location for any kind of flight following safety measure?

What if the airfield or even the hotels need/would like the details for their records, movements, insurance, trends to analyse for improvements to be made? Does a licensed airfield have an obligation to take movement details?

I'm not up to anything dodgy, so I have no real issues in supplying it, but I do feel slightly perturbed that my movements are potentially being recorded.

Don't ever go filling in a flight plan then!

nigelh

17th Mar 2012, 12:37

Silsoe .....cheap shot . We all happily tell ATC details going from an airport ...this has as much to do with knowing our probable route in the event we go missing . This is totally different and will result in a system like Russia where you have to have permission from Moscow for any flight , anywhere , even local . We were getting permission from Moscow for 5 min hops right up in the Kola peninsular !!!!!!!
We have let the CAA grow into a monster which has smothered and killed probably 50% of all small aoc companies and we have done nothing to stop them ......now we have the spectre of the police doing the same thing and we should react before it becomes the norm . Nobody is going to charter a helicopter from A to B if it involves waiting for 30 mins for a police check .
Just politely give them name and address and refuse to play their game if it is not a legal requirement .
on a lighter note i see the police are going to demand that new recruits can at least spell their name to get onto the force ....a good move as there was no intelligence required at all previously ..........

SilsoeSid

17th Mar 2012, 12:49

Thames Valley Police - Ports Unit (http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/crprev-ct/crprev-ct-aviat.htm)

Examination of flights

Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act gives the police powers to examine any flight arriving or departing any airfield irrespective of its destination - this includes internal flights within the UK.

How can you help?

As a pilot/owner - by being aware of your responsibilities and complying with them.
By being vigilant and notifying us of anything suspicious.
By using the statutory and voluntary flight notification forms to assist us in monitoring General Aviation flights to and from the relevant areas.

Project Pegasus

Project Pegasus is a multi-agency initiative to enhance the reporting structure within the aviation community. The aim is to increase vigilance to make it more difficult for terrorists and organised criminals to operate across borders and to reduce illegal immigration and smuggling into the United Kingdom.

Perhaps in JTs case the hotel owner has simply been asked by the local police, as a landing site operator and therefore a member of the aviation community, to assist in Op Pegasus. And what is wrong anyway with things being ramped up a bit more with the Olympics closing rapidly from the horizon?

SilsoeSid

17th Mar 2012, 13:04

Silsoe .....cheap shot . We all happily tell ATC details going from an airport ...this has as much to do with knowing our probable route in the event we go missing .

Cheap shot! Nothing of the sort.
Of course I forgot, hotel owners, when expecting you to arrive at 1400hrs, will think nothing if you don't turn up. :ugh:
How about making a point when booking in, of asking them to make enquiries if you don't appear! Much like the route cards walkers leave at pubs etc before going for a walk on the moors!

on a lighter note i see the police are going to demand that new recruits can at least spell their name to get onto the force ....a good move as there was no intelligence required at all previously ..........

And I will raise your lighter note to to add that you may well be surprised to find out how many recruits in recent years have degrees :ok:

nigelh

17th Mar 2012, 13:18

I agree ...If you book into a hotel with a landing time you would hope they may raise some alert ...just as with hill walkers . This is all sensible to me . If the hotel just want basic details of who , where from etc i see no problem .
The problem from my point of view was when the police would require you to notify them and then wait for them to come and interview you :ugh:
I am aware that the drive to get better educated police into the force is slowly happening along with accelerated promotions ....all good stuff as we have all come across the thick ones who think they are robocop ......

SilsoeSid

17th Mar 2012, 16:38

:p
I think if anyone needs educating these days, it's the pilots that JT hangs around with!

I can see the conversation now.

Hotel Manager "Excuse me sir, would you mind answering a few questions about your machine gun-toting, missile laden helicopter. I'm going to need your name, point of departure and purpose of your journey "

Pilot "No problem, Osama bin Laden, departed from a secret location somewhere in the U.K and the purpose of my visit - Terrorism."

Hotel Manager "Thank you sir, enjoy your stay."
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

As we all (well most of us) know, ObL has been dead for just over a year, which would cause the hotel manager to contact the police immediately as opposed to eventually informing them of the movement 'in due course' :rolleyes:
:p

ShyTorque

17th Mar 2012, 23:57

The point is that anyone intent on ill-deeds of terror probably wouldn't be using a hotel landing site, in any case.

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 09:07

That may well be true, and I guess a terrorist cell wouldn't dream of going on an outward bound course together either would they!

www.fas.org/irp/world/uk/july7review.pdf

Perhaps the previous lack of movement checks at sites such as hotels would have allowed the terrorist more freedom of movement for both training and meetings without the reporting constraints of an airfield!

Op Pegasus, surely we all have the responsibility to report anything suspicious rather than winge and moan saying things as ridiculous as "I'm not doing anything dodgy". You may well not be, but someone somewhere is!

In order to ask the right people the right questions, those same questions have to be asked to the wrong people. :ok:

Thomas coupling

18th Mar 2012, 10:10

Stop bleating you lot, will you! God - you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't!
Is it any skin off your nose to help the ploice in something like this? It's to do with the Olympics, of course it is - so it's in the public interest to assist.
If they did sod all and sat on their hands and the balloon went off - you lot would be the first to bitch and moan about cops doing nothing!!

get a life and take 2 minutes out of it to help towards public safety.
Rant over.

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 10:14

In order to ask the right people the right questions, those same questions have to be asked to the wrong people.

Sid, agreed, I see both sides of this but as there is no effective way of confirming that the personal details given given are correct; so it's a nugatory system because it totally depends on the honesty of the individual. The people who need catching are obviously anything but honest and would obviously never be caught in this "trap"!

There is no legal requirement / mandate for anyone visiting a hotel to give correct personal details to a member of hotel staff i.e. there's no such offence of "giving false details to a hotel receptionist"! If there was a proper check in place, using immigration or police officers (which of course is totally impractical), the helicopter would just be landed somewhere other than at a hotel, at least after the first time someone asks for personal details of the occupants of evil intent!

It could be argued that a dishonest receptionist could pass details of those using a hotel landing pad to those wanting to "hitch a ride" on the day, shall we say. Who is vetting the hotel staff with access to this information and what security system is in place to protect any details passed to them....get my drift? *Edit: we have our own "personal security" system to consider. The personal details of who we fly around are kept very much "in house" with good reason. I'm very aware that passing "in confidence" details to a hotel receptionist, or sent by fax is a potential breach of that security.

It can surely be seen that this "security system/operation" is something put in place so that those who need to cover their backsides can say that something was put in place. It can do nothing to prevent a terrorist incident but as is often the case, it will make life more difficult for those going about their legal business on a daily basis.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as aware of the threat and as keen to help prevent it as anyone (probably more aware than most members of the public) but it does seem that the fear of an incident has the authorities running around in circles.

A.Agincourt

18th Mar 2012, 10:27

I do not see a problem here, following already in place required procedures - no big deal - reporting anything suspicious, could be an issue because I seriously doubt an appropriate and timely response. I operate all over the country including the Souf and have never been approached or involved with any of these people, in any way. Nor do I envisage that changing. As a matter of interest, the Holiday Inn at Garforth require similar information to be passed to the Police as mentioned by another poster referring to a spot in Lancashire. However, I can state clearly that this has been the case for quite a number of years to my personal knowledge and nothing to do with anything more recent. Why? You tell me. :bored:

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 10:33

A.A, it's because they don't understand the actual legal requirement. As above, my point is, do you know who else gets to see (or could potentially see and act upon) the details you pass in advance to a hotel?

A.Agincourt

18th Mar 2012, 10:52

A.A, it's because they don't understand the actual legal requirement Agreed and in fact they do not care.
As above, my point is, do you know who else gets to see (or could potentially see and act upon) the details you pass in advance to a hotel? In all probability - nobody at all.

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 10:56

http://www.ffa.org.uk/documents/CAP428.pdf

CAP 428
Safety Standards at Unlicensed Aerodromes
(Including Helicopter Landing Sites)

2 Provide a movements log and ensure pilots always complete it. The local police and Customs and Excise will wish to check on flights in and out as may your local planning department if you are operating under the 28-day rule - Chapter 2, Paragraph 2.2 refers.

ShyTq
There is no legal requirement / mandate for anyone visiting a hotel to give correct personal details to a member of hotel staff i.e. there's no such offence of "giving false details to a hotel receptionist"!

I guess it would be like booking into a hotel as Mr Smith (as long as your name isn't Smith). Give all the false info you like, but the credit card will give your game away to the missus, as would the aircraft registration to the authorities.
:ugh:

What were those words, 'Im not doing anything dodgy' !!!!

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 11:54

I guess it would be like booking into a hotel as Mr Smith (as long as your name isn't Smith). Give all the false info you like, but the credit card will give your game away to the missus, as would the aircraft registration to the authorities.

Sid, I'm afraid that's a little naive. Some hotels do not charge a landing fee. In any case, whatever the method of payment, it's certainly not mandatory to use a credit card and it's incorrect to assume that landing a helicopter obliges the use of any other hotel facilities needing payment.

How often do the hotel staff actually come out and check the aircraft registration (or that of your car, if driving into the carpark)? Never, in my experience. Would the average hotel staff even recognise the type of helicopter parked on the helipad? I know that they would not. There is no legal requirement for them to check, either.

As I said, my point is that the system depends entirely on the honesty of the individuals involved, which renders it ineffective for purpose. It will certainly enable the authorities to gain some peace of mind by monitoring law abiding citizens, but it will not prevent a non-law abiding citizen from doing anything he wishes.

Agaricus bisporus

18th Mar 2012, 12:23

I agree that this is a pointless system that can have no concieveable effect on terrorism as it simply cannot achieve its purpose and is therefore an ill-concieved pointless waste of time and manpower.
Thus it will inevitably be seen (rightly or wrongly) as having some otherhidden purpose which can only be
1)A pretence by the Police of "being seen to be doing something" - ie a bureaucratic pre-emptive arse-covering exercise which is probably close to the truth. It certainly displays all the signs of the sort of baseless assumptions that the Police make about subjects on which they posess zero knowledge and have't taken the trouble to find out or think about. (ie terrorists using a hotel site in the forst place, or being honest enough to give correct details if they did) If it wasn't so staggeringly naiive it would be hilarious.
2) Something more sinsiter in terms of big brother regulation of our established right to fly freely into private sites. Unlikely that the CAA would involve the Police in such a move, or that the Police would have the resources to co-operate.
3) A continuation of the all too common overstepping of reasonable Police powers under the blanket and untouchable excuse of the Anti Terrorism Act which is imho something to be very concerned about as they seem to feel they have the right to do almost anything without any justification when they invoke this. And that's scary in a democracy.

However unless memory fails surely there has been a requirement for many years (over 20) for the owners of unlicenced landing sites to maintain a record of movements so this sort of thing is hardly new, is it? Or has something changed?

bladeslapper

18th Mar 2012, 12:29

An extra £2bn in security costs for the Olympics....... Inevitably there will be some very silly examples of how to spend it !!

With a large contingent of the military and most of the UK's police deployed in London for the event - Not to mention a vast number of the world's press watching, why would you necessarily pick on a target in the hotspot of the city. There are plenty of of high profile targets around the Country, which will be relatively unguarded, but with the world press on hand to publicise your evil deeds.

Gathering information of who went where seems pretty pointless unless you really do have some means of collation and analysis. Surely far better to spend money on educating the public (not just aviation) of how to be 'vigilant'.

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 12:43

Surely far better to spend money on educating the public (not just aviation) of how to be 'vigilant'.

But attempting to do so would be an admission that it's not already "taken care of" by other means.

The modus operandi seems to be: "Put something in place to cover the rear end, by proving we've at least thought about it and hope nothing actually happens".

nigelh

18th Mar 2012, 12:45

I can quite see the argument of people like TC about " just get on with it " etc etc and all for the greater good . That makes sense but dont forget that all the over regulation fron the CAA came creeping in in a similar way ...ie get on with it , it is for safety etc etc and look where we are now !
I said earlier that the police insisted i notify them when i am flying with guns on board and picking up fuel .....i refused ...but if that really now is "the law" it effectively means that most aoc flights taking people shooting will stop happening ( the fuzz will never get to you and inspect the guns , paperwork etc in under an hour )...thats a few million quid out of the Helicopter Pub Transport income for the year in one go !!! These things may look reasonable under the circumstances of the Olympics but please lets get some assurance that things go back to normal afterwards ........in my experience most temporary rules end up staying , we do not live in a country where the suits like giving up power remember that :=

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 12:56

Who mentioned landing fees?
My little (anal, annu, unalagee), tale, was one of that overnight 'business trip', booking in under a different name and a credit card slip that the poor lady at home will eventually notice :roll eyes:

How often do the hotel staff actually come out and check the aircraft registration (or that of your car, if driving into the carpark)? Never, in my experience.
When was the last time you put down an incorrect registration?

It amazes me that it seems there are a few professional aviators here prepared to bend rules without much thought or conscience. I really wonder how far that flexibility carries on into their aviation world. :suspect:

Are some of you really so paranoid about people knowing who you are in your helicopter at the local hotel?

Here's a good one for you;
Of course, being pilots, the young sidleys assume we all know each other and in turn I know everyone else. As a habit I say hello to most people anyway.
This is great fun when having lunch for example at the local airfield. When an ac arrives, thanks to modern technology, I search the G-INFO database on the registration and find out the name of the owner. That's 'Dave' I tell them. "Really?" They say.
Watching the people get out of the ac, an owner can sometimes be identified and of course it can be quite easy to work out the most 'senior' aviator there anyway. A dead giveaway is the post flight walk around, not done by many casual aviators I add!
As they walk past I give a welcoming smile as say hello "David", good flight? Generally most most simply return the greeting and comment on the weather. Only twice has someone asked if we actually knew each other. All I say is that I thought we met at a fly at a few months ago at EGXX. Seemed to satisfy :ok:

Would it be alright if hotels just wrote down your registration without speaking to you and just passed that on info to the authorities? Surely that would prevent any , as JT says, feelings of being "slightly perturbed that my movements are potentially being recorded".

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 13:00

I agree that this is a pointless system that can have no concieveable effect on terrorism as it simply cannot achieve its purpose and is therefore an ill-concieved pointless waste of time and manpower.

Isn't it about being seen to be doing something and in turn disrupting any undesirable activity? Prevention better than cure and all that. Don't give these people the intelligence they don't have. If any part of their well rehearsed plan doesn't go right on the day, they cannot adapt to the change.

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 13:08

I would have thought it better to do something effective, rather than wasting time and effort.

P.S. Shouldn't you be out here helping to wash the helicopter, or is it big breakfast time? :p

Sid, I've never had cause to make any false statement and so never have, but my point is that anyone could do so because the system isn't in place to prevent that from happening.

As far as real security is concerned! Let's put this in black and white for the hard of hearing...

I go about my lawful business, flying folk around the country. I make all the required bookings. The authorities can check up on me, as they obviously want to. Nothing is gained because I'm a law abiding citizen, so are my pax.

So I plan to go to a hotel to drop off some passengers. The hotel requires, in advance, my flight details. I send them, as requested. They now have details of my aircraft type, who I am, who my pax are, where I've come from and where I'm going. So they now know the capabilities of the aircraft as it arrives, including its range. They also know what date/time I'm arriving and how long I'll be there. There is no security at the hotel landing site. It's next to the public car park.....

Do you not see an issue here? Is that information kept secure? Have the hotel staff been security vetted? :ugh:

From my point of view; my operation is more secure in reality, by not passing this information to anyone who might have evil intent.

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 13:10

why would you necessarily pick on a target in the hotspot of the city. There are plenty of of high profile targets around the Country, which will be relatively unguarded,

Do you have somewhere near Preston in mind blade slapper?

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 13:14

P.S. Shouldn't you be out here helping to wash the helicopter, or is it big breakfast time? :p

While on leave? Why would I do that?
Just because you don't get on with the people you work with, there's no need to spread your envious comments here :=

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 13:19

I would have thought it better to do something effective, rather than wasting time and effort.

ShyTorque for Head of UK Security June - September 2012 :ok:
http://www.olympiccamper.co.uk/images/UK-flag.jpghttp://www.olympiccamper.co.uk/images/UK-flag.jpghttp://www.olympiccamper.co.uk/images/UK-flag.jpghttp://www.olympiccamper.co.uk/images/UK-flag.jpghttp://www.olympiccamper.co.uk/images/UK-flag.jpghttp://www.olympiccamper.co.uk/images/UK-flag.jpg

Now, please tell us, what would you be doing?

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 13:28

I'm going on leave, Sid.

Just because you don't get on with the people you work with, there's no need to spread your envious comments here

Not sure why you say that. In my time at a unit not far from yours we used to wash the aircraft on Sunday morning. We all brought in food and then cooked up the big Sunday breakfast (which I took my turn to cook and wash up after). These days we buy each other the breakfasts if we're in a position to get one.

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 13:51

Sorry, thought you were jumping on another bandwagon there :O

Before you go, can you have a word with the HS and get rid of the leave ban throughout the period :ok:

p.s. He who cooks, doesn't wash up !

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 16:28

No bandwagon here, we're supposed to be on the same side. At least you're going to be paid this summer over the period of the Olympics. I know quite a few in the aviation industry who are being made to take unpaid leave for two months.

JTobias

18th Mar 2012, 18:30

Hi

Silsoe Sid - I didn't book into the hotel. No requirement too. (Based on permission being granted to me previously to land anytime I like).

The problem with this approach, is that I don't have to give my real details and it's therefore farcical. It's also inconsistent too. I've been to three different locations this weekend and no one else has asked for my personal information so Project Pegasus is self defeating.

Also, only authorised Law enforcement personell are allowed to ask for my credentials so again asking hoteliers to obtain the information is not going to work.

Misterbonkers commented that 2 GA Pilots were accosted at a London Aerodrome recently and accused of breaking the law because no notifications had been filed. That was me also, when I arrived at Blackbushe aerodrome (should i be paranoid ???)

The daft thing is this, I'm in favour of a national identity card but we don't have one and the plans to introduce them have been scrapped. We're shortly about to transfer over to an EASA license, but it doesn't include a photograph of the holder. Thats totally ridiculous - why doesn't it ???

I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.I'll happily supply sensible details but the problem is that everyone is asking for something different and no-one knows why there asking or what, if anything, they should be asking for.

We must resist overly intrusive procedures from slowly creeping onto our aviating or else we will be required, eventually, to file some form of paperwork prior to each flight.

Joel :ugh::ugh:

Peter-RB

18th Mar 2012, 18:35

Silo,

There are quite few hot and V delicate places around Preston, One thing though the Bobbies used to go round in twos, its now threes, but I am not sure if the third one is the one going for the Kababs or the Colonel!!

Peter R-B
Too near Preston!

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 19:38

Blimey, what is it with you lot? It's like listening to Shami Chakrabarti.

I guess you don't wear seat belts, just incase you can't get out of the vehicle after the crash, or you use mobile phones while driving simply because when flying you can talk on the radio, read a map and fly all at the same time and you have decided that the mobile phone regulations are an unreasonable and un-enforceable! You may well be 'not doing anything dodgy'. But how on Earth is anyone talking to you, watching you, serving you tea, to know that?

At least you're going to be paid this summer over the period of the Olympics.
Maybe that is because I will be at work :ugh:

So I plan to go to a hotel to drop off some passengers. The hotel requires, in advance, my flight details. I send them, as requested. They now have details of my aircraft type, who I am, who my pax are, where I've come from and where I'm going. So they now know the capabilities of the aircraft as it arrives, including its range. They also know what date/time I'm arriving and how long I'll be there. There is no security at the hotel landing site. It's next to the public car park.....

Do you not see an issue here? Is that information kept secure? Have the hotel staff been security vetted? :ugh:

Probably vetted as much as the staff at your local flying club where you hire the ac from have been!! ;)

I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.
And under what authority have you can decided that? Obviously you think you are an authority on national security in the run up to the Olympics, so tell us what your plan would be!

We must resist overly intrusive procedures from slowly creeping onto our aviating or else we will be required, eventually, to file some form of paperwork prior to each flight.

You don't fill in any paperwork before flying ?!?!

It's simple folks. The world has changed. The UK has changed. We have the Olympics coming up. Aviation is seen as a threat. People are ****ting their pants over what could happen and we probably haven't even imagined what the terrorists have up their sleeve. Is it really so much of a problem for you to play ball for a while rather than be an unnecessary thorn in the side of the security services?

Yes, someone said earlier 'terrorism wins again'. That will, as we have learnt from the past, always be the case.

Don't ever forget people;
The terrorist has to get it right just the once in a thousand times, the security services have to get it right every single time !

SilsoeSid

18th Mar 2012, 20:02

And what will you be doing after April 8th, in your self important world of clandestine need to know secrecy?

You must carry Photo Id, licence and medical at all times: This used to apply only to commercial pilots, who could be “ramp checked” at any time. The new EASA rule (FCL.045) requires all pilots to carry their current pilot licence, medical and photo-id at all times. At least you don’t need to carry your logbook with you. Photo-Id could be the newer UK credit card sized driving licence or passport; other types may be acceptable.

How about playing ball :ok:

misterbonkers

18th Mar 2012, 20:20

There are plenty of good points coming out of this one and much healthy discussion.

Perhaps I could point out the aviation community itself seems to have far more intelligence on it's activities than Project Pegasus and it's the manner in which PP are going about their activities that is causing concern. There are examples of a distinct lack of intelligence AND examples of poor attitude towards those that are able to contribute. This could potentially alienate large parts of the flying community - the ones that seem to know far more the PP and it's colleagues.

I work with the Police regularly and have seen many things good and bad.

The local bobby who would rather film the Air Ambulance landing on his mobile phone than stop traffic passing an upturned vehicle with a trapped passenger.

The Police vehicle that cannot follow instructions from it's Air Support and whose driver clearly does not their LEFT from their RIGHT.

GA is a community. The Police need interact with it in a modern day fashion.

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 21:08

SS,

Maybe that is because I will be at work

But you'll get your paid leave later. You'd have something else to say if you were told your services weren't required for two months and you weren't getting paid over that period. How's your savings account?

Probably vetted as much as the staff at your local flying club where you hire the ac from have been!!

Cheap jibe, unwarranted and totally inaccurate. I don't hire from a flying club. In fact I never have. I get paid to fly someone else's aircraft. Just like you.

Quote:
I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.

And under what authority have you can decided that? Obviously you think you are an authority on national security in the run up to the Olympics, so tell us what your plan would be!

Sid, just look up the rules, will you? A GAR is definitely not required for an internal UK flight. It's not down to personal opinion. As I wrote earlier, I recently questioned the need to do this when it was demanded. It was referred to the Lancashire Police. They have confirmed the member of staff concerned was in error to demand one because the rules weren't understood.

A GAR will be required for flights into the Olympics airspace (Restricted and Prohibited areas). It's not required for all flights elsewhere, either now or during the Olympics. But I'm sure you know that.

Why don't you fill in a GAR form for all your flights that involve an off-base landing? I'll give you a clue - you won't find it in the PAOM parts 1 or II, because in this particular instance it's not a matter of an aircraft being operated under a PAOC being given an exemption. ;)

nigelh

18th Mar 2012, 21:23

Silsoe. If you look back at some of your comments in the cold light of day you will see that you appear to be losing the plot :rolleyes: I am sure you are trying to make a valid argument but making more and more posts of ramblings ( 3 in the space of 5 minutes ..!!) doesn't help your cause . maybe their is another police pilot out there who can articulate a defence better ..??
Everybody here is in favour of good security and would embrace any sensible well thought out plan ...I think we all agree on that .
Ps I don't think Joel hires an aircraft either ......!!!

Sky Sports

18th Mar 2012, 21:47

As with most police operations/investigations it's all about eliminating lines of inquiry or leaving them on the maybe pile. Once they have had a little look at you and established who you are / what you do / where you go / when you go and you are no potential threat, they rule you out and move on.
When building the bigger intelligence picture, every little scrap of int, no matter how small or insignificant helps. Like it or not, if you are in aviation, you are a piece in that jigsaw.
If the police have uncovered a plot to hijack a heli at a hotel in Lancs and I was a heli user visiting hotels in Lancs, then I for one would want the police to know all the details of my visits. Makes it very easy for them to put 2 & 2 together and phone me up on 'the day' with a "police operation on a xyz hotel today, Sir, I'm afraid you can't land there." Only later when you see the 'police arrest 3 terror suspects at xyz hotel' headlines, does the penny drop and you thank god we have people working so hard in the background!

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 21:52

Everybody here is in favour of good security and would embrace any sensible well thought out plan ...I think we all agree on that .

Yes, of course we are in favour. Of course in order for this to work (especially with regard to "hearts and minds"), the rules need to be sensible and clearly published and understood by all parties involved.

From my own experience of full time police aviation, the pilot of the day was always looked upon to be the fount of knowledge of all things aviation. A police pilot giving incorrect advice to his police colleagues could cause an incident of a serious nature, especially in the heat of an enhanced security state, as we are now leading up to.

I'll give you one example, albeit from over a decade ago now: Returning from a job in a police helicopter, I was asked by ATC to look out for an aircraft that was squawking 7700, at a certain position. We soon found a small helicopter in cruise flight, in transit and outside controlled airspace. I was then urged by the excited police observers on board to pursue the aircraft and intercept it so we could land alongside, whereupon they would arrest the pilot..... I kid you not!

I told them that was definitely not required and not really a safe idea. Instead I asked them to use the on board camera zoom lens to get the registration so I didn't have to get too close. I then called the next likely ATC unit on his route and advised them of the situation so they could tell the pilot to check his transponder. They did so and all was resolved; it was an inadvertant selection by the other pilot. Had I followed the police "textbook" solution you would have probably read about it in the papers.

Whirlygig

18th Mar 2012, 22:13

Blimey, what is it with you lot? It's like listening to Shami Chakrabarti.You say that like it's a bad thing? Why?

I guess you don't wear seat belts, just incase you can't get out of the vehicle after the crash, I always wear a seat belt (except when reversing as a) is my right and b) chesty substances make it awkward
or you use mobile phones while driving simply because when flying you can talk on the radio, read a map and fly all at the same time and you have decided that the mobile phone regulations are an unreasonable and un-enforceable! My Pprune strapline indicates "hovering and talking" ... and the realisation that,at a time, the two tasks were not mutually compatible.

However, Silsoe hun, the examples you are quoting are LAW. Current LAW. However, if something is not LAW, why should anyone follow it? I believe it is my right, as an Anglo/Irish(wo)man, to go and do and say what I want provided it is not against the LAW. I do not see why (especially as I have grown up with terrorism) I need to prove who I am to those who ARE NOT recognised Government officials.

You may well be 'not doing anything dodgy'. But how on Earth is anyone talking to you, watching you, serving you tea, to know that?Magna Carta ... innocent until proven guilty ...and if the wee lass pouring me a pint in the White Horse needs to know that I come from a long line of Northern Irish terrorists, what's she going to do?? :}

Now Silsoe Sid ... I KNOW that I am providing you with heaps of ammo here ... but why not take a step back and really think about what you're writing? It seems to me to be a knee -jerk reaction without thinking about the implications?

In my current employment we have had certain intelligence that terrorist threats during the Olympics will come from outside the Olympic region i.e the North. However, none of the measures that have been written about here would curb any such terrorist activity.

C'mon guys ... we have all lived with terrorism for decades, and none of the measures made recently have made a whole helluva lot of difference. Why not learn from the past rather than simplying imposing rules that may, or may not, cover a Government Official's arse?

Cheers

Whirls

nigelh

18th Mar 2012, 22:25

It takes a girl to say it how it is ........:D

JTobias

18th Mar 2012, 23:02

Silsoe Sid,

I think we've had some sort of run-in before ??? You were wrong then also.

Please tell me on what basis I am obligated to complete a GAR form and provide it to a hotel when my flight originates and end within the United Kingdom and does not cross an international boundary ???

I'll answer it for you - there is no absolutely no basis that requires me to complete it - Olympic Games or otherwise ! (Unless of course, I'm planning on flying within the temporary boundaries defined for the Olympics, which I wasn't at the time, and in this case I would file it with the relevant authority which is NOT a hotel)

You asked me what MY plan would be - I answered it in the same sentence, but for some reason you ignored it. I said I would happily supply sensible information. I do NOT have to complete a GAR.

In terms of being an expert on National Security, I'm definateley not, but I am far more of an expert on it than you are, particularly as my business involves Law Enforcement and regularly deals with National Security.

In terms of paperwork, unless I'm mistaken, I'm not required to complete any paperwork before a flight - and I'm certainly not required to 'file' it with anyone.

Anything else ?

Joel :ugh:

JTobias

18th Mar 2012, 23:14

All,

Of course there is a far simpler solution.............

ShyTorque

18th Mar 2012, 23:27

Yes, let's all go on leave. Everbody out! :ok:

P.S. But that's what they want....

XV666

18th Mar 2012, 23:38

There are a few here who should read George Orwell ;)

http://images.cryhavok.org/d/3173-2/1984+Was+Not+an+Instruction+Manual.jpg

http://transcurrents.com/tc/1984TC0923.jpg

JTobias

18th Mar 2012, 23:51

And on another note.....................

the bad boys are all laughing their socks off at us.

We introduce these ridiculous rules and regulations that all the good boys and girls follow to the letter but the bad boys ignore completely.

Anti-money laundering rules, border controls, data protection etc etc. The terrorists don't care - they circumvent them, they hide behind the Human Rights ****e, they falsify paperwork, bribe people in positions of trust or infiltrate them with like minded individuals and loads of other ways too.

The bad guys don't follow the rules !!

We should spend more time, effort and money on searching them out, hunting them down, kicking them out and not letting them in instead of cracking the whip on those of us that are law abiding, democracy respecting, citizens.

Joel :ugh:

(My head is hurting now ;-) )

ShyTorque

19th Mar 2012, 00:06

JT, I agree. For some reason the situation we are now in reminds me of this oldie:

3SAbJjktk7E

Thomas coupling

19th Mar 2012, 09:52

Joel:

We introduce these ridiculous rules and regulations that all the good boys and girls follow to the letter but the bad boys ignore completely.

Anti-money laundering rules, border controls, data protection etc etc. They hide behind the Human Rights ****e, they falsify paperwork, bribe people in positions of trust or infiltrate them with like minded individuals and loads of other ways too

Sorry - thought for a second you were talking about the government :eek:

C'mon now - is it too much to ask for some info on your movements. After the Olympics, everything will return to "normal". The 'system' is trying to protect its citizen's.

JTobias

19th Mar 2012, 10:02

Hi Thomas,

I'm a Patriot, pro-Monarchy, absolutely pro-Law Enforcement, but I'm sorry - yes it is too much to ask - especially because it's absolutely ineffective and does nothing to deter the bad guys.

Lets not forget, that if my aircraft intentionally or un-intentionally strays into the "Olympic Area", I'm going to get intercepted in seconds by two fighter jets and if I don't follow their instructions I'm likely to get brought down or shot down.

I don't know what the plan is if a transit van or other vehicle packed with bad stuff is driven near to an Olympic venue (I'm sure the intelligence services have a plan) but to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't include people turning up at hotels in cars hundreds of miles away from providing their personal details to people that have no way of verifying them.

The problem is that our countries plans for protecting our country are Politically Correct - and they shouldn't be.

Joel :ok:

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 10:37

I put posts one after the other to separate the different replies to different posts, otherwise you end up with on long post that some people then blend the answer to one question with the answer to another. Add a few quotes in there and it all becomes a bit much for some to separate what is trying to be said.

It takes a girl to say it how it is ........:D

Apart from the fact that having normal women's lumpy bits does not exempt you from wearing a seat belt!!! And by the way, referring to people as 'hun' is sexist!

I just love this from JT;

I'll answer it for you - there is no absolutely no basis that requires me to complete it - Olympic Games or otherwise !

Immediately followed by;
Unless of course, I'm planning on flying within the temporary boundaries defined for the Olympics,
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

(Hotel Staff) Probably vetted as much as the staff at your local flying club where you hire the ac from have been!!
Cheap jibe, unwarranted and totally inaccurate.

So how well vetted are a local flying clubs staff or the staff at the location you operate your ac?

C'mon guys ... we have all lived with terrorism for decades, and none of the measures made recently have made a whole helluva lot of difference.
Oh really!!!! How can you possibly know that?
Sorry forgot, you must be MI-High :suspect:

Still waiting for answers to my questions!
But I guess some of you are happy for all the security services to sit back and do nothing. In the aftermath you can from the comfort of your armchair then say how things should have been done :roll eyes:

Oh, by the way JT, just because I don't agree with your viewpoint or you with mine, doesn't make you right! ;)

Hey ShyTorque, a bit brave putting the Smash advert up with Whirlygig here now!! Touchy subject in those parts! :p

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 10:56

JT
You asked me what MY plan would be - I answered it in the same sentence, but for some reason you ignored it. I said I would happily supply sensible information. I do NOT have to complete a GAR.

In terms of being an expert on National Security, I'm definateley not, but I am far more of an expert on it than you are, particularly as my business involves Law Enforcement and regularly deals with National Security.

In terms of paperwork, unless I'm mistaken, I'm not required to complete any paperwork before a flight - and I'm certainly not required to 'file' it with anyone.

What is 'sensible information' in your eyes?
And what should 'they' be doing about aviation in the UK in the run up and during the Olympic period?

Do you not complete any, weight and balance data, check the met, do any pre flight planning, check Notam's put a simple line on a map or even sign for a check 'A'? :=

Fly_For_Fun

19th Mar 2012, 11:13

I watched a really good film last night Sid, "How To Lose Friends and Alienate People" :ok:

Chopper Doc

19th Mar 2012, 11:39

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 11:44

Opinions on this subject and the whole Olympics issue with aviation is like the proverbial asshole, 'We all have one'.
Which one is right? Who knows until something or nothing happens?

Please tell me on what basis I am obligated to complete a GAR form and provide it to a hotel when my flight originates and end within the United Kingdom and does not cross an international boundary ???

Of course you don't have to provide a GAR to a hotel. As far as I grasp from your first post, the hotel you went to has simply been asked by the Police to keep a record of movements. Besides for flights within the UK there are indeed times when you do need to properly file a GAR.

Just because you don't have to do something doesn't mean you have to go out of your way and even upset people by making a point of not doing it!

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 11:52

I watched a really good film last night Sid, "How To Lose Friends and Alienate People" :ok:

That's the film about the guy called Sidney wanting to ingratiate himself with egotistical characters and the superficial celebrities who populate the pages of the magazine isn't it?

Doesn't the main character (Sidney) finally become successful, getting all the girls that were disgusted by him before and even catching the eye of the new rising star Sophie?

Whirlygig, get your coat, you've pulled luv!

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 12:05

Just to join the poetry and Literature club here;

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Your name will also go on the list, what is it?

JTobias

19th Mar 2012, 12:44

Silsoe,

Youve done it again, you've omitted parts of my sentences that are the critical element.

Firstly, I said there is no requirement for me to complete a GAR form for flights originating within the UK (etc, etc) UNLESS I am entering the Olympic Airspace and then I only have to provide it to the apropriate AUTHORITY. In other words I am NOT obligated to provide it to a hotel. So you banged your head on a wall for no good reason. ;-)

Am I right or wrong ??? (For the avoidance of doubt, and to avoid some attempt at distraction, do I or don't I have to complete a GAR form and provide it to a hotel ???)

You also refer to my viewpoint - but we were discussing some facts which you have conveniently sidestepped. The first one I have covered above and the second relates to the filing of paperwork before a flight.

Completeing a weight and balance (and no I don't actually - I know I'm within it most flights and when I'm unsure I do one), checking weather and NOTAM's etc is not filingpaperwork with someone prior to my flight. So I'm certain that I'm also factually correct here also.

In terms of your viewpoint, of course you're entitled to it, and I respect that. Let me tell people mine. In the course of protecting this country and it's citizens I will happily comply with anything that is sensible and apropriate regardless of whether it's the Law or not.

But it should be exactly that 'sensible and apropriate' and I don't know what constitutes that but I'm certain that being asked to provide it at some places, and not others, with no verification process isn't it.

Joel :ok:

nigelh

19th Mar 2012, 13:15

I totally agree with you Joel . Nobody has complained about the exclusion areas etc as that seems a perfectly rational and sensible thing to have .....those of us that are going about our business outside thse areas will i am sure keep an eye out for anything suspicious and will report it . I think a month hols abroad for everyone is the simplest way around it :ok:

JTobias

19th Mar 2012, 13:53

Thanks Nigel !

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 14:23

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 14:36

Firstly, I said there is no requirement for me to complete a GAR form for flights originating within the UK (etc, etc) UNLESS I am entering the Olympic Airspace and then I only have to provide it to the apropriate AUTHORITY.

If I may link that to a previous cutting comment you made on an earlier post;

Sid, just look up the rules, will you? A GAR is definitely not required for an internal UK flight. It's not down to personal opinion.

Well, clearly you do not know the rules as well as you think you do.
This is either a case of simply stating what you decide suits your argument, or perhaps a problem with your geographical knowledge. Last time I looked, Northern Ireland was still part of the UK...as in the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Of course you will know that a GAR is to be filed for a flight originating elsewhere in the UK to a landing site in Northern Ireland....wont you?
:p

JTobias

19th Mar 2012, 14:37

Silsoe Sid

Then why the facetious comments in post 67 ???

You're inference was that I was contradicting myself - which I clearly was not. We've also now established that I was correct regarding the GAR and you were not.

So lets move on to the second point. What paperwork am I obligated to file before any flight I make ? An inference you made in post 50.

Silsoe, I've read the posts carefully, and I've replied, carefully. Perhaps you should too. :-)

I await your response to the filing of paper work.

Joel :ugh::ugh:

nigelh

19th Mar 2012, 14:47

Joel , i would give up on Silsoe ...he is obviously brainwashed :eek: He is part of a minority group who are obviously happy to jump through hoops just for the sake of it !! The rest of us just want a well thought out system that will actually make the country safer and not just arse covering .

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 14:52

JT
Your words about paperwork were;
In terms of paperwork, unless I'm mistaken, I'm not required to complete any paperwork before a flight - and I'm certainly not required to 'file' it with anyone.

Nobody has said you need to file your paperwork with anybody :confused:
What troubles me though is that you have clearly said that you are not required to do any paperwork before going flying and therefore don't.

IMHO, pre flight planning, including weight and balance (that you have most clearly told us you do not do), and other aviation related tasks are paperwork. Fair enough, if you don't think so.
Much like the suitable questions that you would answer when asked, what is your definition of paperwork?

Surely to goodness, even if you scoff at W&B, checking the Met and Notam's are 'paperwork' in any aviators dictionary,

I'm sure your comment of...
Completeing a weight and balance (and no I don't actually - I know I'm within it most flights and when I'm unsure I do one),
...could become part of a CRM course sometime :ouch:

Hey Nigel, you still agreeing with JT on this?

SilsoeSid

19th Mar 2012, 15:08

JTSo lets move on to the second point. What paperwork am I obligated to file before any flight I make ? An inference you made in post 50.

Silsoe, I've read the posts carefully, and I've replied, carefully. Perhaps you should too. :-)

I await your response to the filing of paper work.
Joel :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Yes, lets read my post 50 shall we!!

Aaah Yes. You will notice I said;
You don't fill in any paperwork before flying ?!?!

Bit of a difference between your accusation that I'm saying that you had to file paperwork before flying and the actual fact that I questioned that you didn't fill in any paperwork before going flying.

Once again, please give me the decency of reading my posts before commenting on them :roll eyes:

file, fill, fuel, full, fail, :ok:

nigelh

19th Mar 2012, 15:45

OK Silsoe admit it your having a laugh arent you :ok: I also think its quite fun to wind people up on this site .....but please , its gone on long enough and surely you MUST have SOME work to do :confused: I advised Joel to ignore you because having brought up 2 children you realize when someone is arguing just for the sake of it !!!!!!!!!! Joel was in essence correct about filing paperwork ...citing N Ireland was you just being an anorak . Also , having flown for 30 years with a lot of pilots well more experienced than you i have never done a W&B ( unless axtraordinary loads or luggage ), not even on my PPL or CPL or CFI checks . I hardly ever did one in my 350 for normal pax flights as yet again i knew that unless there was something out of the ordinary it would be in limits . I think he has flown 206,s for long enough to know . You are quite at liberty to sit down and do one for every flight if that floats your beurocratic boat :ok: I dont consider looking at wx on my iphone as "paperwork " ...i dont draw a line on my map either ....so NO i dont do any paperwork either before a flight other than first of day for check A .
Now be good and go get a life ...!!!!!!!!!!

JTobias

19th Mar 2012, 16:09

Silsoe

I think we're on different conversations here and again you are doing your deflection bit.

Firstly I never said I didn't check the Met - I live on the weather website, and use various apps on my iPhone and iPad multiple times each day to check the weather constantly whether I'm flying or not. It's what I do as an aviation nut !

The same with the Notams, particularly as I use Skydemon on my iPad which has a great Notam section.

In terms of weight and balance, I know that if I carry 2 people in my Jet Ranger or even 3, maybe even 4 (99.99999% of my flights are 3 POB or less) then I'm within limits.

None of that is paperwork !!

I've also just read Nigel's response and he is right. Children 'argue for arguments' sake and rarely stick to the issue, choosing to regularly deflect onto another. it's looking familiar.

Nigel, I apologise, I should have taken your advice and ignored Silsoe Sid because he's not listening or reading.

Joel :ugh:

ShyTorque

19th Mar 2012, 20:09

Sid, You seem intent on taking this discussion well away from the original point.

However, to answer some of the questions you directed at me:

So how well vetted are a local flying clubs staff or the staff at the location you operate your ac?

Fairly well vetted, I'd say. As I said before, I don't operate from a flying club (and I don't actually see the relevance of that compared to a discussion about hotel landing sites). The staff at our base location are CRB checked in order to get an ID card. We have similar security in place to the location that you operate from (I've visited your building on a number of occasions and also been inside your unit accommodation in the past, so I do know).

Our operation is a very close knit one with a very small number of staff. Having worked from this location for well over a decade, I'm well aware of who is "local" and who is a visitor. Until last week even my actual employer was not aware of the exact location of the other main landing site I use. That site has its own company security staff and access to the main site is controlled by them, company ID cards are in place there too. The HLS has ten foot high security fencing with a lockable gate, the whole site also has CCTV. I'm personally known to the staff.

The aircraft is kept in a secure hangar at base. So, I think our operation has pretty good security, in all. Far better than any hotel system or flying club, for sure and at least on a par with your "local" security, probably better.

For example, our helicopter has never been destroyed in an arson attack.... How's your new(ish) one settling in, Sid? :E

BTW, they didn't ask for a GAR last time I visited your base, or even ask if I'd flown in from across an international border ;) ).

As far as knowing the requirements for submission of a GAR... after nearly twenty years of military flying (including time based both in NI and in Europe), followed by another similar period of civilian ops, over ten years of that based in UK in the VIP/Corporate industry (and some of it in the same role as yourself), I have become quite well accustomed to the rules (not personal opinion, note - but the legal requirement). From your earlier comments it appeared that you didn't actually know the rules but I'm sure you've since been able to look them up to continue with this debate). I also know that in your type of employment (having been in your type of work myself, albeit some years ago), you wouldn't often see a GAR because you don't usually, if ever, cross international borders or transit the Irish Sea because you mainly operate over one central area.

Might have to change for you soon under NPAS, though, eh? ;)

JTobias

19th Mar 2012, 21:05

Silsoe,

There's a tune that keeps popping into my head. I can't quite make it out, but I remember the words :-

'Oh it's all gone quiet over there'

Joel :p:p

Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

nigelh

19th Mar 2012, 23:22

Let us know when youve finished reading the regs ....;)

SilsoeSid

20th Mar 2012, 00:50

Well, it seems I have been the most consistent along the way, and waiting for my time to mention N.Ireland being part of the UK was worth the wait to see how adamant JT was that he knew the rules. Nigel of course followed along one minute agreeing with me, then with whoever had most on their side. A common trait!

Of course I read up the GAR instructions, I never claim to know everything, that is why we are able to go to official sites and get the information needed, unlike JT's top of his head knowledge and reading things to suit his arguments.

I feel there is a lot of embarrassment over the 'file and fill' mis-read earlier, especially after we were told, "I've read the posts carefully". Quite laughable that one.

Amazing that the term 'paperwork' has not moved into the modern world. Surely in anyones eyes, pre flight planning such as Met, Notams, check etc are paperwork. Just because you use an iPad/Pod/Phone it is still 'Paperwork' in the sense that the word is used.

ShyT, it's a shame that we have agreed on a few threads previously for you now to get fairly hurtful here with your comments. Don't quite understand your gripe. Of course a GAR isn't familiar territory, but at least when I read about it I knew what I was talking about, as opposed to JT's interpretation.

Nigel, you're a star.
"NO! i dont do any paperwork either before a flight other than first of day for check A . "

'I don't do any paperwork....'Other than'...classic :D

Once we get back to the main points to this thread...What would you do in the run up to the Olympics to interrupt any unwanted activity. Of course the feeling I get from some here is to stop a particular part of our society from flying. However, as that isn't going to happen what would really be wrong with everyone filing a GAR for the next few months?

Don't like big brother watching? (thread title)
Not too bad when big brother prevents your car/house/family being interfered with is it?
ShyT, does your security involve CCTV?
JT, do you ask the hotels to put their CCTV on your ac?
Nigel, earlier you said you were happy with flight following.

Yes it is all about the Olympics;
As Bertrand Russell said;

The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.

ShyTorque

20th Mar 2012, 10:00

Sid, you're only getting backlash from me over this is because you unfortunately waded in very strongly indeed and upset other contributors by your "I know better than you" attitude.

In my case, you made a patronising jibe at me by insuinuating I was an ignorant PPL hiring from a flying club in order to progress your argument. Later you tried to make out that I didn't know the basic rules of my job. As a professional pilot with almost forty years of aviation experience, I did take strong exception to this and so I gave you some back. If you "deal **it out" on a professional pilots' forum, then be prepared to get some back! :E

We are now in a situation where some of those holding the keys to our industry don't seem to know the law with regard to aviation as it stands. We are very aware of Op Pegasus; a rep has visited our base (we have a local SB rep). In some cases it appears that non-aviation folk such as hotel staff have been given the wrong impression by their local law enforcers. As I posted earlier, I recently rang a hotel to get management permission to land and was told that I would have to complete some paperwork. I was happy to do this, we routinely do it but in this case a GAR was emailed to me, along with the requirement to complete it well in advance (actually more notice than is needed for an international flight). I was told this was so the local police could "approve" the flight! Total nonsense. I queried this and it was immediately referred back to the police by the hotel. Needless to say, I will still be going to that hotel but with less detail being given.

My argument that giving out too much detail to persons unknown, in an uncontrolled security environment, is actually leaving us open to an aircraft hi-jack and is therefore counter-productive. Unless the police are going to meet every flight, check out the passengers and secure the landing site. We know the answer to that one.

If the law is changed and GAR completion in advance becomes mandatory for all internal flights, so be it, we'll have to do it, but it will cause corporate helicopter pilots like myself a big problem and I'll be the first to object. We know all about the Olympics restrictions as it's highly likely to stop our ops to London for two months, our key "earner". A major London handling agent has recently advised staff that they will be laid off for the duration because GA flights will no longer be accepted. The helicopter industry is under huge pressure as it is, every time we turn and comply someone seems to put another obstacle in our way. As things are at the moment, an extra "security charge" of £1500 has recently been levied on every GA movement to LHR. This is on top of normal landing and handling fees. How many clients are going to pay this?

The only reason corporate helicopters exist at all is to provide clients with the ability to be highly flexible in where they go, at what time of day and who flies with them. The required passenger load does sometimes change at short notice, even at the point of passenger embarkation, in my case.
This is a legal right, whether you like it or not, that's the way it is, that's what we provide to make a living. That right is being eroded, little by little.

We are all aware of the need to be constantly vigilant about security. I would say that I am very much so, perhaps more than your own department has shown itself to be (sorry about mentioning the arson attack but I couldn't resist that one). I'm afraid you haven't helped win any "hearts and minds" here by your sniping and attempts to put down anyone with a different viewpoint to your own.

All I ask is that you see my viewpoint without the petty sniping. ;)

nigelh

20th Mar 2012, 11:48

Old Age Pilot

20th Mar 2012, 12:25

I once thought of helicopter pilots as cool :}

TorqueOfTheDevil

20th Mar 2012, 13:10

Just because you use an iPad/Pod/Phone it is still 'Paperwork' in the sense that the word is used.

Is anyone else reminded of the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky episode and the "That depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is" defence?

it's a nugatory system because it totally depends on the honesty of the individual. The people who need catching are obviously anything but honest and would obviously never be caught in this "trap"!

Are you sure about the first sentence? Presumably the police will instantly check the information they were given, and be able to tell there and then if the information is false or unverifiable.

I once thought of helicopter pilots as cool

OAP...totally, some of this thread is downright embarrassing:(

ShyTorque

20th Mar 2012, 14:15

Are you sure about the first sentence? Presumably the police will instantly check the information they were given, and be able to tell there and then if the information is false or unverifiable.

TOTD,

The police or other government agencies can of course check that any given passport information is correct (provided the person actually has a passport to be checked, again there is no requirement to be in possession of a passport for the type of flights we are discussing here). But there is no physical system in place to confirm who is actually in the aircraft when it lands at a private helicopter landing site. Just as no-one checks who is in a private car or hired taxicab driving between two private addresses (what is the difference, in reality).

Want to hide someone? Then don't put them on the form. Or avoid going anywhere near any sort of known HLS and just land unseen in a remote field behind a wood where a private car is waiting.

I'm certain that if someone with evil intent wanted to use a helicopter for any purpose they wouldn't be so stupid as to fill a form out and submit it in advance to the authorities for prior approval!

SilsoeSid

20th Mar 2012, 15:17

Shy,
It is no way an 'I know better then you attitude'. Nor do I question your professional standing. I am more than aware of the experience here on PPRuNe and therefore have a pause, two, three, before posting on anything written in black and white, i.e. not opinion based. It's called getting your facts right. However, when someone says that 'one' doesn't have to file a GAR for flights within the UK, highlighting how well they know the rules and how right they are, don't question me etc, what is wrong with pointing out that according to the rules in some cases you do. Not that I know better than anyone, just that I read the rules, updated myself and pointed out the flaw in their statement.

Please don't pretend that you didn't know what I meant with the flying club reference. We know each other, and even those that don't can look at your profile, so why do you say I was calling you an ignorant PPL? All I was pointing out was the staff at a hotel are probably as vetted as most staff at a flying club. So, someones flight details are as safe at the club as they possibly could be at a hotel.

I notice you said that you didn't file a GAR when visiting our place. Rightly so. However, I bet they had your details on the handling agents board. The one behind the desk that anyone walking in to the office can see.

As far as your comments on security at a personal level goes, who'd have thought that with manned security posts, fences, armed patrols and regular activity, someone would attack us? Hindsight is a marvellous thing to poke fun at people with. Good job none was injured this time. I notice the security at your old place wasn't too good (when you were there I add) until this particular incident happened. Things are different now, all round.

Anyway, back to the thread itself;
If you see being hijacked the greatest threat, are you in favour of pleasure flights and the like being cancelled during the Olympic period?

p.s. I think you may have upset some private pilots here, who in my opinion are always more than welcome.

SilsoeSid

20th Mar 2012, 15:35

Aah, Nigel.

We were talking about local flights in the UK and you have to point out the exception of N Ireland ....clever little boy .

:ugh: There was no mention of 'local flights' by anyone. Flights within the UK yes, but where is a 'local flight' mentioned in the whole GAR discussion?
What's a 'local flight', if you operate for example out of Oban, Carlisle, Blackpool, Prestwick, is NI local?

You are now backed into a corner and using any lapse of correct grammar to score points .....so ok the only paperwork i do is the first flight check A ...happy now ??
Grammar? It's the definition of paperwork I asked for :roll eyes:

Happy? With the comment early of "I don't do any....the only paperwork I do is..." in mind ecstatic :D

You may be isolated in your little job , your job may be unaffected by this but you need to see the point of view from others ...some of whom will lose their jobs and some may lose the business . You are myopic ....open your eyes and see what is happening to others .

Perhaps it is as simple as, I don't see the problem of 'booking in' with a hotel that I am visiting.

SilsoeSid

20th Mar 2012, 15:45

I am intrigued to know if those that complain about 'Big Brother', have Tracker devices fitted to their vehicles, refuse to go to fuel stations that have forecourt surveillance cameras or even question department stores by asking under what authority are they recording their actions in their shop? Even our local tip has a plate recogniser that flashes your reg on an LED display as you go in. Some here use iWhatevers for flight planning etc. I take it that you have location services switched off and take all actions to prevent being tracked.

The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/19/ads_suck_batteries/)

The researchers used three HTC smartphones for the tests: a Magic and a Passion, both running Android, and a Tytn II running Windows Mobile. Among the 21 apps tested were browsers, photo uploaders, newspaper apps, mapping, Twitter, and games like chess, Sudoku and Angry Birds.

The breakdowns are interesting: in the free Angry Birds app, the researchers found, user tracking accounted for 45 percent of power consumption, one-third of which is devoted to GPS tracking. To this the app adds the energy used in uploading user information and downloading ads.

As I said before, if a particular hotel has to keep a record of movements to show the usage of the site, would you mind giving your details then, or was it the hotels mention of the Police asking them to take your details that upsets more?

ShyTorque

20th Mar 2012, 17:53

Please don't pretend that you didn't know what I meant with the flying club reference.

No pretence here, I don't know what you meant, I just took the comment at face value.

As far as the other "Big Brother" things you mentioned, such as cameras at petrol stations etc. I don't have an issue with them because I can see that they do provide a worthwhile deterrent against bilkings and other criminal acts. In any case, at those locations I'm not required to give persons unknown what I consider to be sensitive personal details about myself and my passengers.

You asked me about CCTV at my operating locations. I did specifically mention that point prior to your question.

I don't have a Tracker on my car; I see no financial gain as it's not valuable enough to me and probably of little interest to a criminal. It's insured against theft in any case. If someone steals it they will have to damage it to gain entry and then I probably wouldn't want it back.

I have disabled "location following" on my mobile phone which was designed merely to satisfy some outfit who want to sell me their stuff, or tell others exactly where I am so they can tailor their own adverts. It's annoying how it has recently begun trying to get me to turn it back on. I do have a choice, though and will continue to make it. Haven't Google just been in the news for being warned that what they are trying to do via mobile phones is against European law and rights of the individual?

Regarding earlier comments about flight following, the ANO mentions that in the absence of a written flight plan, a responsible person should be nominated for this purpose. This doesn't have to be hotel staff and I wouldn't personally expect them to understand what this really means or to be prepared to take on this role. Instead I keep in touch with my base by phone where necessary; if I don't get in touch they often ring me to check up how we're doing. Obviously they know more or less where I should be at any one time, so do ATC because I make a point of obtaining a service of some sort or other whenever it's available; it usually is on mainland UK. If there's no radar or other more relevant unit in the vicinity, I use London or Scottish Info who provide a very good service for transit flights. They are trained to take overdue action and will do so if necessary.

Regarding booking in; I've spent much of the day finding ad-hoc landing sites for future flights. They were all given our details, including the insurance, as we always do expect to provide. However, none of them expected passport numbers of the aircraft occupants and if they had asked I would have politely declined to give them. The easiest permission to obtain was the one I thought was potentially the most difficult, on a private estate. A quick couple of phone calls, yes no problem was the reply. The only thing needed was the time of arrival so they could let our driver in to meet us. Some folk on here, or policemen on PP might go slightly faint with worry if I said where it was, so I won't. ;)

pilotmike

20th Mar 2012, 18:56

Embarrassing. Deeply embarrassing.

It was with a sense of dread, yet curious, guilty voyeurism that I felt compelled to read on, hoping that there would be more gems worthy of Basil Fawlty - and it didn't disappoint!

Amazement that the term 'paperwork' has everything to do with PAPER!

"Surely in anyones eyes, ..."???

It is widely accepted that 'surely' almost invariably introduces a weak argument!

Keep the comedy coming - it is almost too much!

ShyTorque

20th Mar 2012, 19:00

Keep the comedy coming - it is almost too much!

I'm just the straight man, but I'll try to keep up ...

....meanwhile, I've got to get back to printing off some more GAR forms. ;)

JTobias

20th Mar 2012, 20:38

Hey Silsoe,

I'm getting a bit naffed off with your arrogance now, and twisting things to suit your pathetic arguments.

1) You basically chastised me for politeley refusing to fill out a GAR form and provide it to a hotel. You asked me on what authority I decided that it was inappropriate.

Question Do I or do I not need to complete a GAR and provide it to a HOTEL ?

You then went off at some ridiculous tangent regarding the filing and completion of paperwork prior to a flight being conducted.

Question In the context of the type of flight I started this thread with, what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?

I'm not twisting anything or pretending I know stuff when I don't. You however, are behaving like a prat and arguing for the sake of it.

Now answer the above two questions. Or shall I answer them for you?

The answer to both of the above is that I'm not required to do either. Which makes me right on both counts and you wrong (again!)

Joel :ugh:

helicopter-redeye

20th Mar 2012, 21:28

I'm all for national security. Twice in many years have the police (or anybody) asked for details about a flight outside of controlled airspace. Both in Scotland strangely. Once on a remote island with only one policeman on it. Appeared within 10 mins of landing and asked politely for details. Information provided, he went away happy and I'm sure never called the CAA/ Scottish Information/ local FISO who knew about the flight/ anybody else, because the answers passed the reasonableness test. The other time was an airport where the locals were able to say 'och whist, he's been coming here for years Jock'. Same result.

Actually it was quite reassuring that people cared enough to check that I was not a rag-head with a chemical bomb on board.

The olympics would be just the sort of situation the bad guys would like to make something of. Let's not give them the chance.

h-r

Incidently, I've always found Preston to be a very dodgy place. Wrong side of the Pennines.

TorqueOfTheDevil

20th Mar 2012, 21:41

I'm certain that if someone with evil intent wanted to use a helicopter for any purpose they wouldn't be so stupid as to fill a form out and submit it in advance to the authorities for prior approval!

Agreed (no sh1t!). But...

Just as no-one checks who is in a private car or hired taxicab driving between two private addresses

In my limited experience, the police do exactly this. Some years back I was driving to Lossie and was making good time on the A9; a patrol car clocked me, tailed me for about a mile then pulled me over, by which time they had already checked that the car was MOD owned so my explanation of what I was doing in deepest Scotland late at night with several holdalls on the back seat tied in with what they could find out in 30 seconds of checking as they followed me. I totally take your point that no ID is required for persons on a GA flight within the UK, but maybe the point of what the police are doing is to make the baddies aware that GA is being monitored and therefore not a foolproof way of achieving their evil aims. Of course there will be ways of dodging the law, and certain officers of the law may make an a$$ of themselves as they try to monitor us going about our business, but as several people have said, doing nothing at all isn't an option. Was it Anthony Eden who said "A leaky dam is better than no dam at all?"

SilsoeSid

20th Mar 2012, 22:48

Deep intake of breath.

Question Do I or do I not need to complete a GAR and provide it to a HOTEL ?Nobody has said at any point in this thread that you need to supply a GAR to a hotel. So the answer to question 1 above is; No.

Question In the context of the type of flight I started this thread with, what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?
I would have thought and you have made it most clear that you don't agree, that by paperwork the Met, Notams, docs etc would be checked and also a check A would be completed. Just because the medium paper itself isn't necessarily used, and therefore you dont consider it paperwork per se, you are only being as picky as I can be. As I have already pointed out, I DID NOT SAY FILE, I SAID FILL

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20110217SSL17.pdf

3 PREPARATION 3.1 Paperwork
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.

So to answer question 2 above is; Apart from the above list, at least a record of a Check A being carried out.

The answer to both of the above is that I'm not required to do either. Which makes me right on both counts and you wrong (again!)

AS I haven't ever said that you need to supply a GAR to a hotel, how can I be wrong ?
Do you really not have to at least check dates and record that a check A has been completed before taking your aircraft flying?

JTobias

20th Mar 2012, 22:59

Silsoe

At last a sensible response......

And whilst I don't want to aggravate either of us, if you read your reply to my comment in one of my earlier posts, you asked me on what authority I had decided that it was inappropriate to complete a GAR form when arriving at a hotel. The inference being that there was some authority that required me to do it - and you've now agreed that there isn't. Thanks.

In terms of paperwork, my reference to it was clearly in the context of making sure we were not moving towards having to file some form of documentation prior to conducting a 'normal' domestic type flight. It was evident to the majority of people what I was referring to. It was not meant, and I don't believe could ever be interpreted, that my inference was connected to pre-flight planning by the Pilot which clearly should be done. If you consider that to be paperwork, which I don't (and I'm not being pedantic) then that's upto you.

Joel :ok:

ShyTorque

21st Mar 2012, 00:36

TOTD, I actually have no concerns about the police, immigration, CAA or any other authorised person coming over to my aircraft on landing to check my ID, licence, aircraft documents or whatever. I always carry my passport, even though there is no legal requirement for me to do so. However, no, there is no legal requirement for my passengers to carry any form of identity documents on mainland flights.

However, my concern is that there are some who have been erroneously been leaned on / given to understand the idea that all mainland helicopter flights now need advance police "approval", initiated by submission of a GAR form to hotel staff, and that it may or may not be given.

Please see my earlier posts. The debate/ verbal sparring I've taken part in here was with that in mind.

As far as I can summise, this will remain to be be the case even for the period of the Olympic games, unless the aircraft needs to enter the promulgated restricted or prohibited airspace. Unless the law is changed, it would be a brave police officer who detained an aircraft or arrested a passenger for not carrying ID when there is no legal requirement.

A leaky dam is certainly better than no dam, but you're wasting your time and money unless it's built across a river.

Now, my printer cartridge needs changing, it's overheated. All this damned paperwork... ;)

nigelh

21st Mar 2012, 01:05

I am now losing the will to live and even taking the piss out of Silsoe has lost its appeal !!! Can someone else take over and see how long we can keep him at this bone ....

on21

21st Mar 2012, 06:08

As far as I was aware we're not living in a police state. If the person at the hotel belives your a terrorist threat then he should collect his intell covertly, and pass it on to Op Pegasus. Not ask you to complete the attached pro forma. "excuse me sir, you didn't tick the terrorist yes/no box"!

pilotmike

21st Mar 2012, 09:34

@Silsoe3 PREPARATION 3.1 Paperwork
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.

Please enlighten us, which of these documents require any 'filling' prior to each and every flight? As you have made it a cornerstone of your spurious argument about paperwork that needs to be filled prior to every flight, I think we should be told.

SilsoeSid

21st Mar 2012, 10:25

And whilst I don't want to aggravate either of us, if you read your reply to my comment in one of my earlier posts, you asked me on what authority I had decided that it was inappropriate to complete a GAR form when arriving at a hotel. The inference being that there was some authority that required me to do it - and you've now agreed that there isn't. Thanks.

Not quite.
I think you will find that I have never said you are required to complete a GAR at a hotel, either by 'an authority' or the hotel itself and it cannot be inferred. (see below quotation)

As for the previous post you refer to;
I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.
And under what authority have you decided that? Obviously you think you are an authority on national security in the run up to the Olympics, so tell us what your plan would be!

All I am simply asking is, what makes you 'an authority' to decide what you are being asked is appropriate or not?

Going back to post number 1,
Today I landed at a hotel I regularly visit in Preston, Lancashire and on arrival I was asked to provide my full name and basic details of my flight as was my friend who also landed in his aircraft.

What is wrong with that?
When you queried this, if the hotel said it was for their own movement records, would that have been ok? And out of interest, what was the other inappropriate information the other hotel asked for? Perhaps we will all agree that they were asking for too much info.

SilsoeSid

21st Mar 2012, 10:27

Mike,

Nobody, at any point in this thread, has said "each and every flight" :rolleyes:

ShyTorque

21st Mar 2012, 10:40

Pilotmike,

A public transport flight does need more paperwork to be filled in, in the tech log. E.g. Check A signature block, weight and balance calculation, etc. For a private flight, the requirements are less. Maybe a slight misunderstanding over this difference is where this part of the argument took off, so to speak.

As far as the rest of what was mentioned, I'd call it flight planning, rather than paperwork.

SilsoeSid

21st Mar 2012, 10:55

Nigel,

I am now losing the will to live and even taking the piss out of Silsoe has lost its appeal !!!

Thank you for your contributions.

NO i dont do any paperwork either before a flight..... other than first of day for check A .

Classic :ok:

nigelh

21st Mar 2012, 12:40

:rolleyes:.....over and out . God help us if you ever get any authority in your life .

Helinut

21st Mar 2012, 12:47

Please stop.

pilotmike

21st Mar 2012, 13:24

I can see I'm going to have to make this really simple.

JTobias asked:what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?
SilsoeSid posted this quote:3 PREPARATION 3.1 Paperwork
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.
before answering:So to answer question 2[JTobias' question above] above is[sic]; Apart from the above list, at least a record of a Check A being carried out.
This highlights SlipperySid's subversive efforts to obfuscate, by trying to confuse 'file' and 'fill'. He clearly has included various aircraft documents in his answer to JTobias' specific question "what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?" All the nonsense about 'file' vs 'fill' looks rather stupid and infantile now this has had to be pointed out.

As the question was about actions to be taken 'before I conduct a flight', which is synonymous with 'before each flight', I believe most readers (that are still awake) would agree that SilsoeSid's discussion of documents applied 'for each and every flight', in his answer to the question above.

Sid, your comedy 'sarcastic' icon reflects poorly on you, and does nothing to help you to make a coherent case.

ShyTorque, as an ATPL holder, I am fully conversant with the various requirements for undertaking both commercial and private flights, thank you. I made no reference to either commercial or private flights in my comments, even though I believe that JTobias's original observations were intended to apply principally to private flights.

ShyTorque

21st Mar 2012, 13:36

ShyTorque, as an ATPL holder, I am fully conversant with the various requirements for undertaking both commercial and private flights, thank you. I made no reference to either commercial or private flights in my comments, even though I believe that JTobias's original observations were intended to apply principally to private flights.

No offence meant; I wasn't suggesting that it was a lack of understanding on your part. ;)

p.s. there's a space on your profile to add your licence type, it can help to avoid any uncertainty.

SilsoeSid

21st Mar 2012, 20:23

This highlights SlipperySid's subversive efforts to obfuscate, by trying to confuse 'file' and 'fill'. He clearly has included various aircraft documents in his answer to JTobias' specific question "what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?" All the nonsense about 'file' vs 'fill' looks rather stupid and infantile now this has had to be pointed out.

Mike,
Can I please refer you to post 82 on page 5 of this thread.

I have never said anyone has to file any paperwork before a flight.
I am merely defending myself from the insistence that I did.
If people would stop saying that I did, I would have no need to keep pointing out the fill/file mistake made by JT.

As the question was about actions to be taken 'before I conduct a flight', which is synonymous with 'before each flight', I believe most readers (that are still awake) would agree that SilsoeSid's discussion of documents applied 'for each and every flight', in his answer to the question above.

OK, if you read it that way so be it. I have never said you have to do any paperwork before each and every flight. However, if you want to go that way, how about this;

A pilot has to record the amount of time he/she has been flying in order to keep the aircrafts hours up to date for both technical and personal logging purposes. That means the recording of take off and landing times or taking note of a timing devices output at the end of the flight. Would you consider that recording of flight times to be paperwork?

I think I would, as it must surely be written down or entered onto something, and by virtue of the fact that this is done at the end of each flight, it follows that that same bit of paperwork is also done before the next flight....doesn't it?

JTobias

21st Mar 2012, 23:00

Silsoe

What exactly is the "fill/file" mistake I made ?
Pray tell...

Joel :ok:

SilsoeSid

21st Mar 2012, 23:26

(yawn smiley)
Please read post 82

And while you're here;

I HAVE NEVER SAID YOU HAVE TO FILE ANY PAPERWORK BEFORE GOING FLYING!

Please stop saying I did.

SilsoeSid

22nd Mar 2012, 09:45

While you're there, have a look at post 86

JTobiasSilsoe,

There's a tune that keeps popping into my head. I can't quite make it out, but I remember the words :-

'Oh it's all gone quiet over there'

Joel

Sorry, couldn't resist :p
*

Sorry, couldn't resist :p

JTobias

22nd Mar 2012, 22:16

Sorry Silsoe,

It takes me a while to sift through some of the nonsense written.

Now where were we ?
Ah yes, paperwork and the fill/file thing.

No, I don't fill in any paperwork before I fly (remember to read my answer in context). What paperwork do I have to fill in before I fly ?

Joel :ok:

SilsoeSid

22nd Mar 2012, 23:40

Clearly none Joel...none.
:ugh:

SuperF

23rd Mar 2012, 05:50

surely the flight time is recorded AFTER the flight. if you say it was recorded after the flight therefore it is before the next flight, then that is like the plod asking if you were drinking before you got into your car to drive.

why, actually yes i was drinking before i was driving, i had quite a few drinks...last week sometime.... doesnt make sense to me.

JTobias

23rd Mar 2012, 08:45

Silsoe ,

Actually, I put my signature on my tech log that confirms I've done an 'A' check on my aircraft. I'm actually very exact with my paperwork. But you still haven't answered the question.

What paperwork do I have to fill in before I fly ?
Educate me.......

Joel :ugh:

SilsoeSid

23rd Mar 2012, 08:56

Bit of a difference between drink driving and logging flying hours SuperF.

ShyTorque pointed out earlier that this is a professional pilots' forum.
With that in mind, to go flying without doing any paperwork, which according to the CAA includes 'making sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.', doesn't sound very 'professional to me.

Which is why, when this all kicked off, I merely asked the question in post 50, "You don't fill in any paperwork before flying ?!?! ". Do the ?!?! not convey an element of surprise in the question?
Coming from a military background (sorry Nigel) and now public transport flying, where I did & do have to complete paperwork before flying, is that really such an unreasonable question for me to ask?

I certainly don't think it deserved the response ,"In terms of paperwork, unless I'm mistaken, I'm not required to complete any paperwork before a flight", and all the pages of flack thereafter.

Let's just say that every single time I walk to an ac in order to go flying, I say to myself the mantra, "auth'd out, signed out, booked out, walked out." Then I do my walk round etc. I certainly don't have to do all of those things in my mantra, but it's a mental 'paperwork check' that ensures that I know all is well and I can concentrate on the job in hand rather than have any niggling doubts in the back of my head. If there's something I doubt during that process, I go back in and check.

I consider that to be a bit more than the 'kick the tyres and light the fires' attitude some may have. I'm getting the feeling even the kicking the tyres part might be a bit much for some, just incase doing what it says on a piece of paper might be considered paperwork!

SilsoeSid

23rd Mar 2012, 09:10

Actually, I put my signature on my tech log that confirms I've done an 'A' check on my aircraft. I'm actually very exact with my paperwork. But you still haven't answered the question.

What paperwork do I have to fill in before I fly ?
Educate me.......

Joel :ugh:

Uuum, I think you have just answered your own question!

Wouldn't it have been so much easier to have said that back on Page 3?

XV666

23rd Mar 2012, 09:39

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lols30rUm71qeiwtao1_500.gif

SilsoeSid

23rd Mar 2012, 10:05

Hey JT.

Perhaps there is one little bit of paperwork you should do before going flying, and that would be to read http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf

The 500 feet rule
Except with the written permission of the CAA, an aircraft shall not be flown closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-EqMvf_Odg

Around the 1:30 mark is interesting ;)

SilsoeSid

23rd Mar 2012, 10:09

What was it you said in the first post of this thread?

I'm not up to anything dodgy, so I have no real issues in supplying it, but I do feel slightly perturbed that my movements are potentially being recorded.

JTobias

23rd Mar 2012, 11:44

Silsoe,

Oh what a pathetic, cheap, and childish response. You just like controversy don't you? But, I'm pleased you're viewing my blog/youtube channel. But don't preach the 500ft rule either unless
a) you know who is flying the aircraft, and
b) you're in a position to calculate the distance, and
c) correctly able to interpret the rule, which clearly you aren't.

Now, referring to your post 126, it was evident to most people on this forum that an element of this thread was about filing some sort of documentation with a 3rd party prior to a flight. You however changed file to fill - for no apparent reason - and then droned on forever.

Nigelh - why, o why, did i NOT listen to you and leave this saddo alone?

:mad::mad:

By the way, do you operate your own aircraft or fly someone else's? Just curious?

Joel :ugh::ugh::ugh:

JTobias

23rd Mar 2012, 12:11

Silsoe,

The problem with you/your posts is that you clearly show an inability or a desire to consider the circumstances or context.

Firstly, (posts 125, 126 etc) whilst this forum is called the "Professional" Pilots rumour network, we're actually posting in the Non-airline forums section. Now I fully appreciate that this doesn't mean that if you're not airline you're not professional (i.e. commercial).

However it doesn't mean we all are either. My original post was clearly from a Private perspective and most people understood this. Even it were not, the elements relating to having to notify or advise people of our movements would still be valid in my opinion and many others too.

With respect to the paperwork element, you as a professional pilot may be obligated to complete far more detailed paperwork than a privately operated flight. You're inference was also that by not completing this type of paperwork (an expression that a few of us couldn't even agree on the interpretation) some people were being un-professional.

Let me assure you that I, and many of my non-professional aviator friends, conduct our flights very professionally, I am an obsessive compulsive and a stickler for detail.

I'm also quite happy to play around with my machine albeit in certain circumstances. On a given day, with all the right criteria, I will for a minute or so, play in my helicopter. I will do what I can to ensure it's safe, it's legal but also fun. Maybe its safe, maybe it's not. Maybe it breaks the 500ft rule, the land clear rule, or some other rule. Maybe it doesn't.

However, I can do that because I'm pilot in command, because I've evaluated the environmental conditions and applied my 25 years of flying fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft and calculated in my own mind that I can. I'm probably also flying my own personal machine at the time.

Now, I know what you're going to say. It's going to be something along the lines of "on what authority?, or what gives you the right to?, or what makes you so experienced....." etc etc.

The answer is this. I have a brain and I'm capable of applying all the various elements and making a decision. It may be the right one, it may be the wrong one, but it's MY decision - and I will deal with any consequences be they god, bad or indifferent.

And so far, thank g-d. I seem to be doing O.K.

I don;t know what you do for a living, or anything about you, but you're outspoken for outspoken sake, controversial for controversial sake and unfortunately it's doing you little good.

I can't tell you how many text messages and private messages I've had about you in the last few days. But its a few. No one comments on your piloting ability, but they do describe your personality. Maybe you should apply a bit more common sense and a little less arrogance.

I'm really trying hard, in this post, to show some gesture of cordiality. It would do your cause so much benefit if you did the same.

I remain hopeful, but not entirely convinced. Lets see.

Joel :)

SilsoeSid

23rd Mar 2012, 12:35

All because I expressed surprise that a private pilot didn't have to fill in any paperwork before flying....outstanding!

Every day is a learning day.

SilsoeSid

23rd Mar 2012, 12:59

I have not changed anything, and once again...
I have never said anyone has to file any paperwork, let alone to a 3rd party, before a flight.

The problem with going off on one JT is...

I'm also quite happy to play around with my machine albeit in certain circumstances. On a given day, with all the right criteria, I will for a minute or so, play in my helicopter. I will do what I can to ensure it's safe, it's legal but also fun. Maybe its safe, maybe it's not. Maybe it breaks the 500ft rule, the land clear rule, or some other rule. Maybe it doesn't.

However, I can do that because I'm pilot in command, because I've evaluated the environmental conditions and applied my 25 years of flying fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft and calculated in my own mind that I can. I'm probably also flying my own personal machine at the time.

Now, I know what you're going to say. It's going to be something along the lines of "on what authority?, or what gives you the right to?, or what makes you so experienced....." etc etc.

The answer is this. I have a brain and I'm capable of applying all the various elements and making a decision. It may be the right one, it may be the wrong one, but it's MY decision - and I will deal with any consequences be they god, bad or indifferent.

And so far, thank g-d. I seem to be doing O.K.

...you forget who else has gone before you :(

BBC News - Colin McRae blamed for fatal helicopter crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14803595)

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Eurocopter%20AS350B2%20Squirrel,%20G-CBHL%2002-09.pdf

Please, please don't interpret this as a cheap shot, but a possible life saver.

Tarman

23rd Mar 2012, 13:39

Time for a Harry Hill decision. . . . . . .

" Now I like Joel, but I also like Sid . . . . . .but which is best ?"

There's only one way to find out . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

FIGHT !!

Tarman

fluffy5

23rd Mar 2012, 13:45

Are you two girls finished yet. As you two are having a hissy fit, I have an opinion that JT is perfectly within his rights as he has suggested being a private pilot. Fortunately and unfortunately there are many professional pilots that have their opinion also, which can get miss interpereted for the wrong reasons, but with very good intentions. Personally I do not have time to constantly post, because I am always flying and plus the mod's delete half my stuff that I put up.
Anyhow what was this thread about.......:}

ShyTorque

23rd Mar 2012, 14:34

I think the discussion is reaching a conclusion:

rC-QG3EOKZI

SilsoeSid

23rd Mar 2012, 15:05

ROFL :ok:

Is there a part 2 to that vid Shy? The kissing and making out...sorry up!
:E:E:E:E

JTobias

23rd Mar 2012, 17:37

Silsoe,

I'm well aware of theColin McCrae and others and I appreciate your concern (which I hope is genuine) and I hope I never come anywhere near the flying situations they got themselves into.

But I'm honest enough to admit that every now and then I'm going to throw my machine around a little. I'm actually sat at EGCB watching an instructor throw an R44 around the field like there's no tomorrow.

Silsoe, it happens, loads do it. I'm honest enough to admit it. And I recall being chastised on here for a very dodgy departure I once did at Cholmondeley Pageant. I turned the wrong way and had to make a very interesting turn to ensure I didn't fly over the crowd. It looked ****e from the ground and my instructor was watching. He bollocked me properly.

It was referred to on Pprune and I voluntarily told the world it was me. Im quite happy to admit when I get things wrong. Do you ?

Anyway, I'm gonna blow you a kiss and send you a hug (we could get a room if you like) and hopefully you'll accept the gesture in good faith.

Joel :ok:

SilsoeSid

24th Mar 2012, 08:13

Joel,

Yes my concern was/is genuine and I hope that at those times when we all feel like 'doing something', just before we do, we we think back to other peoples mistakes. There are times and places for everything, yet in aviation those times and places are very few. Much like driving, today I am giving the car a blast on a track day, after all the briefings, simulator and instruction. Not totally safe, but safer than the open road and in a controlled environment.

Yes I do admit my mistakes and I would like to think in the aviation world that we all do. Better to admit your mistakes when they happen than to have someone else find them out in not very nice circumstances.

Pop over for a brew next time you're around our area, kettle's always on and there is more often than not a digestive looking for a dunking.

Happy & safe flying
SS
:ok: