How many more lives?

[Jayand]

A famous quote from Vietnam goes along the lines of, How do you ask someone to die last in Vietnam, how do ask the last person to die for a mistake?
It's a very good point and one we should be asking now about Afghanistan.
Honestly, are our politicians past and present going to be able to look into the families eyes and say their sons and daughters sacrifice was worth it?
The brave survivors of this mess will have to live with the horrors they witnessed, lost friends, injured children, constant fear of ied etc.
The horrors of war are nothing new and loss is devastating whatever the circumstances but, this war like Vietnam is pointless and unwinnable.
Does anyone really know our real objectives? are we achieving them? And in ten years time will we look back and think what a shameful waste of life?

[iRaven]

I for one have seen the removal or incarceration of several individuals that I woul not want to see walk on God's/Allah's Earth; and certainly not near me, my family or friends in the peacetime world we share. Furthermore, I have seen women and children be able to get an education in AFG these days- despite some nutter trying to stop it by throwing battery acid over young girls on the way to school. I have met members of the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) who are eternally grateful for our intervention and sacrifices. I have also seen tons and tons of explosives, mines and narcotics destroyed in an attempt to clean up what should be a beautiful country blighted by many years of corruption and war.

So in answer to your last questions, Jayand, "yes, yes and no"

iRaven

[RedhillPhil]

We went there in the nineteenth century and got whupped.
The Russians went there in the twentieth century and got whupped.
We're there in the twenty first century and getting whupped.
What is it about this bloody country Afghanistan?

[glojo]

Good afternoon IRaven,
There are any number of people whose behaviour is objectionable but are you seriously suggesting that when both the Americans and our troops pull out, the present regime will remain in power, the schools will remain open for both boys and girls?

Do you genuinely believe we are not already negotiating with the Taliban who were the very people we decided were not a fit people to govern Afghanistan?

[Wander00]

The two rules of strategy

1. Never fight a war on 2 fronts
2. Never invade Afghanistan

Simples

[Load Toad]

We went there to find & kill Osama. He's gone - he was killed in Pakistan. Go figure.

Right - that's it - we've been there too long, achieved nothing that will either will be eroded in the few weeks after we leave - or 'they' can hold onto now and forever more.

There is no need or use for us being there anymore & it is not worth one more life.

[hval]

Load Toad,

An interesting article reference Osama bin Laden in todays Sunday Times: -

To precis -

Al-Qaeda was seeking the $25m (£16m) bounty on his head and Bin Laden understood what was happening but had lost the will to live. Bin Laden had been ousted as leader “in a silent, bloodless coup” in 2003 and may have been suffering from some degenerative disease, in which he was losing his mental capacities and his physical abilities.

Al-Qaeda was broke and its motive in betraying Bin Laden was to get hold of the $25m the US had put on his head. “The supreme irony is that, if the money has been paid, then the CIA has paid to bring Al-Qaeda back to life and has [killed] somebody who was totally irrelevant to Al-Qaeda and who was dying anyway.”
--------------------------------------------------------
Some of the above is directly quoted from the Sunday Times (Sunday11 March 2012).

[P6 Driver]

How many more lives?

1. Quite a few, probably.

2. Too many.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/poppy.gif

[orca]

I would be very interested to hear a soldier's view on this. My time in theatre involves kinetics but from an air conditioned cockpit; nerve wracking and fraught but well removed from the sights and sounds of mortal combat.

We have seen the USMC urination incident, the NATO Koran burning incident and now the US Army mass murder incident.

I was always of the opinion that the progress made would be incremental and very fragile. A year's or decade's good work and incredible sacrifice could be undone by a nano-second's action.

If a soldier was to tell me that the three above events are unavoidable and someone will always let the side down due to the very nature of what we are asking of them - then we are lost and cannot win. If a soldier was to tell me that these horrendous incidents are not undoing their amazing work on the ground then I shall keep the faith.

[hval]

Orca,

Unfortunately humans can be unpredictable at an individual level. Unpredictable humans in an unpredictable environment will always lead to unpredictable events.

[Shack37]

Orca,

Unfortunately humans can be unpredictable at an individual level. Unpredictable humans in an unpredictable environment will always lead to unpredictable events.

An obituary which will be of enormous comfort to the survivors, if any exist, of this latest atrocity.

[hval]

Shack37,

Whilst the incident is extremely regrettable one has to ask what drove this soldier to do what he did. The person involved is apparently a a Staff Sergeant and a member of the U.S. special operations forces who had been involved in training the Afghan police.

I would love to see the atrocities that are perpetrated by the Taliban raised and written about in a similar manner. They aren't. They are rarely ever mentioned; yet the Taliban carry out many, many more atrocities than do the Western forces.

I do not wish to give the impression that the atrocity carried out by the American soldier is acceptable, but I do wish that there was an unbiased view presented.

[racedo]

Invading another country you always need an exit strategy.............in 2001 there was not one for Afganistan, in 2012 there still isn't one.

11 years, countless deaths and debts and achievement not much further than 2001.

Easier to have overthrown from within but US of A needed a war after 9/11 to feel like it was doing something.

[hval]

racedo,

Invading another country you always need an exit strategy

Unless you intend to stay.

[hval]

racedo,

Easier to have overthrown from within but US of A needed a war after 9/11 to feel like it was doing something.

The West succeded in their original intention of ridding Afghanistan of Al Qaeda.

[iRaven]

I'm not a soldier, but you don't need to be to go outside the wire as an airman! I've been to Edinburgh, Dwyer, Price, Nad-e Ali, KAF, Graceland, Lash, Kabul and Bastion. I've seen the atrocities commited by the Taliban first hand - as I mentioned battery acid in the faces of young girls no older than my daughters, unable to get to water to wash it off and now scarred for life. I've seen them murder and maim local populace that we have patched up in our field hospitals having got caught in the middle of the fighting.

I would say we have been successful, measuring success in COIN and anti-terrorism is a bit like measuring the success of Flight Safety - you only really know if it would have been successful with hindsight! However, we're hardly being overun with Islamic terrorism at home are we? Is that the measure of success?

I have lost many good mates from jaunts to the Middle East and whilst I miss them very much, I would not, or I doubt they would, have changed my/their level of participation one bit. So I ask you to respect this when you claim that our efforts and sacrifices are a 'waste' - I find some of the above totally disrespectful.

iRaven

[iRaven]

PS Racedo - 2001 was mostly an air campaign and some 'special' ground work - the current ground campaign started 4-5 years later, so I make that 5 years of the main Afghan campaign.

PPS The ANSF can hold their own soon and with a minor compromise with the Taliban, I believe that a lasting solution will be enacted.

[Fareastdriver]

If Jane Fonda and all the rest of the fluffies in America who tied the US forces hands behind their back in Viet Nam had failed; none of this would have happened.

[hval]

Fareastdriver,

I would disagree (if I may) with your conclusion. Vietnam was always going to be a lost war for the USA. The involvement of the media and "luvvies" only accelerated the process.

[Samuel]

I am one of those who has argued for years that we have lost the Afghan war; that even if we stay for another ten or twenty years, we would change nothing in that corrupt medieval society.

I’m tired of the crocodile tears of politicians and politically-leaning senior officers In the wake of Tuesday night’s losses,trotting out the usual platitudes things like: ‘We must stay and finish the job.’

To which I say, complete and utter bollocks.! There is no way this century that that war can be won, and Blind Freddy himself can see that all that will happen is that more lives will be lost in a futile military excursion. Bugger 2014, someone find the guts to declare the war over and get those people home NOW.

I recall in the 60s the mass protest in the US over the Vietnam war, and the eventual conclusion by the US Government that they had been wrong to go there and wrong to stay. Perhaps a few protests in the UK on the same scale is what is required.

[hval]

Samuel,

someone find the guts to declare the war over and get those people home NOW.

Those involved are being brought home NOW. Unfortunately NOW takes a year or two to plan for. The war (was it/ is it a war?) is not over and will not be over, even when every western troop is removed from Afghanistan. War shall continue, as it it has done for hundreds of years, even without us.

Deliberate destabilisation from Pakistan, from Iran and from other interested nations does not help matters. Their interference will continue whether we are there or not.

There have been many demonstrations in the UK against war in Afghanistan.

[Lima Juliet]

"War" or "Counter Insurgency (COIN) Campaign" - I tend to believe it is a COIN Campaign, which has totally different Aims and Objectives (which aligns with I believe we are doing in Afghanistan) than War.

From the British Army website it says:

UK Forces here are made up of personnel from the Navy, Army and Royal Air Force. The majority of this force is deployed to Helmand province in the south.
In addition, the UK has troops deployed in Kandahar and Afghanistan's capital Kabul.

UK Forces are working in a joint military-civilian plan to push back the Taliban. When we go into the villages and districts in Helmand we are supported by Afghan Army and Afghan Police who hold the ground we have cleared, to prevent the Taliban returning.

Our civilian stabilisation experts work with local officials and tribal elders to follow up security with plans for new roads, clean water and basic justice.


Doesn't sound like a war to me...:confused:

LJ

PS. The "war on terrorism" isn't a real war either!

[PRO NCA]

I have been in since 1980 seen many conflicts, all politics and too many deaths just so the those in parliament can justify their jobs, time for me to leave.

[hello1]

Samuel,

Where were you in 1940 when we really needed your optimism?

H1:ok:

[racedo]

PPS The ANSF can hold their own soon and with a minor compromise with the Taliban, I believe that a lasting solution will be enacted.

The Russian felt that when they exited and supplied weapons to the Afghan President who was holding his own as nobody was winning. Then all of a sudden lots of foreign interference with Pakistan intellegnce funded by US gave us the Taliban with the remnants of the Mudja under Osama................do you really think Pakistan is going to let go its strategic influence in Afghanistan and that the US won't still be supplying billions in weapons there ?

[Samuel]

H1:

The writing has been on the wall since the Russians failed after ten years of trying, but the problem is those wanting to "finish the job" can't see that wall because they've got their backs to it!

Before the last troops leave Afghanistan, even before they leave because the insurgent elements are already there and always have been, Karzai and his cronies will have skipped the country to live off the millions they have stolen, and the Taliban will simply carry on where they left off.

That's not failed optimism, pessimism or whatever on my part, it's realism. This war, if that's what it is, is un-winnable and never was, and I would suggest that the military hierarchy are very much aware of that fact.

[hetfield]

@Samuel


Very wise and well said.


Seems like too many people haven't learned from Vietnam..., sad, very sad!

[parabellum]

The West succeeded in their original intention of ridding Afghanistan of Al Qaeda.


Exactly!!! What so many here are choosing to totally ignore is the fact that by being in Afghanistan Al Qaeda has been prevented from using it as a base for their campaign of world wide terrorism, how many lives has that saved? Try to imagine the kind of organisation they could have developed, aided and abetted by the Taliban, if the allies had not gone into Afghanistan.

Additional to the above the civilian population have had the advantage of ten years of seeing what life without the Taliban could be like and may just be prepared to fight for it. When the allies do eventually pull out the insurgent element of the Taliban will no longer have a cause, they are there now simply to confront the West.

The invasion of Afghanistan has given ten years of relative peace and saved an unknown number of lives by preventing the proliferation of Al Qaeda style terrorism on a world wide basis.

[racedo]

What so many here are choosing to totally ignore is the fact that by being in Afghanistan Al Qaeda has been prevented from using it as a base for their campaign of world wide terrorism, how many lives has that saved? Try to imagine the kind of organisation they could have developed, aided and abetted by the Taliban, if the allies had not gone into Afghanistan.

So now they just in Somalia, Libya, Yemen, Nigeria etc etc whereas finding who is coming and going in Afghanistan would have been a far better idea.

Mind you Collin Powell was happily providing aid to Taliban for getting rid of drug production..........

[spectre150]

I have been in since 1980 seen many conflicts, all politics and too many deaths just so the those in parliament can justify their jobs, time for me to leave

PRO NCA - I am interested in your analysis of the evidence to suport your assertion that there have been 'too many deaths just so those in parliament can justify their jobs'. From a non-emotional perspective, what does that mean?

[charliegolf]

PRO NCA - I am interested in your analysis of the evidence to suport your assertion that there have been 'too many deaths just so those in parliament can justify their jobs'. From a non-emotional perspective, what does that mean?

I thought that was a bit of a stretch too.

CG

[glojo]

"War" or "Counter Insurgency (COIN) Campaign" - I tend to believe it is a COIN Campaign, which has totally different Aims and Objectives (which aligns with I believe we are doing in Afghanistan) than War.Questions, not statements ;):)

I understand what you are saying and I understand what Counter Insurgency is but......

(Polite questions)) Did we, or did we not actually invade Afghanistan? Did we or did we not remove the legal government of that sovereign state? .

There is a saying that when you 'win' a country you are responsible for the security of its people. I personally find the Taliban regime an abhorrent way of life and alien to everything I believe in, but where does this end. Name half a dozen countries with a worse regime and I will match it.

What people forget when they list the evil atrocities committed by the residents of Afghanistan against our troops is that we are an occupying force. Whether we agree with this or not it is a fact, we are being attacked by residents of a country that do not want us on their soil. it is a ruse to call these people Al Qaeda, Taliban, insurgents, or any other fancy, fashionable names, they are citizens of a country we are occupying and theyobject to our presence!

Their idea of 'payback' to avenge what they feel are the innocent slaughtering of their kith and kin is DEFINITELY repulsive, :sad: but the instant we step away from the moral high ground then we are just giving them more ammunition. We list atrocities against our troops, they list atrocities against their women and children. There are no winners.

To all those that say we are stopping attacks on our mainland then I say forget the propaganda, forget the weapons of mass destruction lies or Bin Laden hiding in Afghanistan rubbish..... Instead name just ONE Afghan citizen that has been caught committing an act of terrorism on our soil! How many Saudi names do we want? Who funded the attacks on the Twin Towers and what countries did the killers come from? How many of the hi-jackers were from Afghanistan? Yes Afghanistan was probably a training ground for terrorists but so was Southern Ireland (IRA) or not doubt a dozen other so called civilised country. Yesterday's terrorist can be tomorrow's President :*

To the best of my belief there has only been one truly successful 'war' or COIN operation and this was fought just prior to and maybe even at the start of the American attempts in Vietnam. Borneo, Borneo being a confrontation that could so easily have been the UK Vietnam. Instead we kept the hearts and minds in the bodies of the citizens of that country and won them over. Without doing that we become PRISONERS in the very country where we are allegedly conducting these so called Counter Insurgency Operations.

Yes we are the prisoners and have no real freedom of movement. We have failed in spades to win over the hearts and minds of the Afghan people and to me that war is now lost, we lost it and we lost it just because we failed to mix with, live with, play with those we believed needed our protection! You CANNOT move into a village for a month or so and then walk away!!

The evil, evil Taliban that we removed from power have grown from strength to strength and contrary to what the yes men or puppets want us to believe, the Taliban are in my opinion the government in waiting.. waiting for the day we eventually pull out of that war torn country :(

[Fareastdriver]

It is interesting that the BBC, a so called independent organisation, always trots out the total number of British service personnel killed every time there is a military death. I have never known them disclose the total number of civilian deaths every time a terrorist bomb goes off.

I remember when this whole thing started. British journanlists, both written and visual, were falling over themselves trying to get interviews with Taliban commanders so that they could sagely listen to them threaten how many British troops they were going to kill.

[green granite]

It is interesting that the BBC, a so called independent organisation

According to an ex Beeb news reader, most of the senior news staff read the Guardian and use it as their bible. Since that 'paper' is an extreme lefty liberal apologist rag then it's no wonder that the Beeb has similar views.
To give an example of the Guardian's mind-set they ran an article last week saying that it was perfectly justifiable for the noted California scientist and president of the Pacific Institute, Peter Gleick, to fraudulently obtain documents by identity theft from the Heartland Institute and possibly be the author of a forged document purported to come from them. Why? Because they say it's a heretical organization that is anti carbon induced global warming and they wanted to show it was funded by big bad coal/oil, which it isn't.

[maxred]

The invasion of Afghanistan has given ten years of relative peace and saved an unknown number of lives by preventing the proliferation of Al Qaeda style terrorism on a world wide basis.

Eh, would you like to put a figure on how many have died in various global incidents over the last 11 years?????? Take, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kenya, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Egypt, want me to go on?

If that is relative global peace then god help us all:confused:

It is a very ill divided world.

However, choosing your region in which to crusade, to impose your salavation and democracy on, and then wonder why it goes pear shaped, is IMO juvenile in the extreme. I really feel for the military here. These political incompetents from Bush/Rumsfeld, Bliar/Straw, have created one almighty mess, that frankly, I am not sure how any of us can get out of.

The next five years might be very interesting:ouch:

[KG86]

The various UK governments who have got us into, or are keeping us in, this mess seemed to have two aims. Firstly, to stop Al Qaeda from developing a home base from which to launch their attacks on the UK and its interests. Secondly, to stop the country exporting opium.

As we have heard on previous posts, we have achieved the first aim. It's not AQ that are killing ISAF troops in Afghanistan, it's the Taliban. They pose no threat to the UK (or indeed US) outside that country. They just want the infidels out of their country, so that they can return it to the dark ages, and control the drug trade. I say pull out now, and let them. UK troops are being killed because they are there. Remove them from that country, and no more will be killed by the Taleban.

As for eradicating the drug trade, we (and the US) have spectacularly failed in that regard. Last year's crop was a record high.

When we finally leave, the country will descend into those dark ages anyway. We should not lose one more UK life by prolonging this, ultimately futile, operation.

[ORAC]

The two rules of strategy

1. Never fight a war on 2 fronts
2. Never invade Afghanistan

Simples

IIRC Rule 1 was: "Never fight a land war in SE Asia". :cool:

[Wander00]

That as well!

[racedo]

Firstly, to stop Al Qaeda from developing a home base from which to launch their attacks on the UK and its interests. Secondly, to stop the country exporting opium.

As we have heard on previous posts, we have achieved the first aim.

7/7 ring any bells ?

Funny how the perps just got trained up in Pakistan instead.

[t43562]

One might ask if interfering did anything positive anywhere and get a similar set of answers. One might ask if the Roman interference in Britain was justified or effective. Here we are using their alphabet, a lot of their laws and words. And in other places like Zimbabwe these ideas have been passed on and the battle for fairness and decency is being fought out there. Perhaps this is the very beginning of a long road for Afghanistan - as long as it is anywhere else and as much in need of a push if not more.

[Melchett01]

Now, I'm not exactly what you would call a bleeding heart liberal, and when operations in Afganistan kicked off I found it a damn sight easier to explain what we were doing and justify why we were there when asked by friends and family.

But a decade on from our initial foray into the Fourth Anglo-Afghan War (the Pashtuns have very long memories and as far as they are concerned, this is just an extension of previous punch-ups), frankly, we have lost our way as a corporate entity and I and my colleagues often struggle to explain to each other exactly what we are doing there. Hardly a resounding endorsement of government policy when those charged with its execution struggle to understand why or what we are trying to achieve. And as an example and off the top of my head, in my time, the UK involvement in Afghanistan has been labelled as:

Supporting the US in the immediate post-9/11 period
Defeating Al Qaeda and ensuring they can never return to use Afghanistan as a base
Counter-insurgency 2006 onwards in support of ISAF operations against a resurgent Taliban
Lead nation for counter-narcotics
Nation-building
Creating the conditions for the political process to succeed.

So much for selection and maintenance of the aim. If I were being charitable, I would suggest that the constant shifting focus was all about politicans being pragmatic and responding to the conditions on the ground. If I were being honest, I would suggest that the constant shifting focus was all about the politicians being confused about what they actually want to achieve, and not being willing to resource it adequately or being willing to accept the financial and human costs have found themselves shifting to more what might be perceived as more achievable objectives.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the campaign, to borrow a phrase from the Army, we are where we are. And now we find ourselves being responsible for setting the conditions for the political process to lay foundations and grow. Unfortunately, that isn't working either. The Afghan regime is as corrupt as others that have gone before it, both in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the region. Coupled with this is the blatant and totally undisguised lack of trust between the main players at the strategic political level meaning that the military can launch as many operations as they like to shape and secure the environment, but until the politicians pull their collective fingers out and sort their piece out, we aren't going to achieve a damn thing.

Unfortunately, whilst in the European financial crisis where the politicians were found wanting and the bond markets effectively did what the EU singularly refused to do, there are no extra-judicial institutions capable of forcing the politicians' hands in Afghanistan. So come 2014, we will pull out and be left standing there looking at each other and asking just what the previous decade was all about.

So no, after more than 10 years in Afghanistan, I really can't see it having a particularly pretty ending. No doubt we will leave in a fanfare of glory, but the real test of whether or not we succeeded will be what happens to the Afghan government and the people at large once we have gone. And current betting is split between the country last 4 days, 4 weeks or 4 months before the Taliban take over again.

[t43562]

Expecting uncorrupted government in less than a couple of generations is like expecting a house to be built from the roof down. Where are all the people who hold corruption in check if there's no troublesome middle class that gets cross and takes action?

I think that all that can be hoped for is some time of not-terribleness during which more people can have some kind of education and can move into towns. I would imagine that in Europe this phase happened during the reign of kings and emperors after the Romans but at least the Romans built towns and roads and provided a common language (to some) so that their hand in things still mattered hundreds of years later.

[Courtney Mil]

The Romans?

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[Melchett01]

Brought peace!

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, peace. Shut up!

[Melchett01]

Are you the Judean Peoples' Front?

[parabellum]

Nope, we are the People's Front of Judea!

[Victor Inox]

In Vietnam, the military was sent in to do a job the politicians did not fully back. Remember? No bombing of Haiphong whenever Russian ships were unloading weapons for the North Vietnamese and the Cong and similar politically motivated stuff that undermined morale :ugh:

In Afghanistan, as far as there is (was) a clear enemy in the shape of the Taliban (who are/were supposed to be aiding Al Qaeda), the politicians have again got themselves in between the military and the enemy. This time around, the powerful weapon of psychological warfare has largely been taken from the military by banning effective methods such as the of spreading rumours that NATO bullets have been dipped in pork fat, etc.

Either you fight a war, or you want political correctness. The two do not go together.

It also does not help that certain female Western journalists broadcast from Afghanistan wearing a headscarf. After all, wasn't one of the messages of the NATO intervention that of improving women's rights in Afghanistan? Alex Crawford wearing a headscarf certainly does not deliver the message of Western women being free in their choice of garb.

[Jayand]

Looking at his service record I'm not surprised he and more like him have not flipped before now.
A lot of attention being given to him right now but lets not forget all the poor people and their families that for whatever reason he ruined.

[Melchett01]

Looking at his service record I'm not surprised he and more like him have not flipped before now.

And that begs the question - just how many tours is too many?

[SASless]

We had a murder of civilians by a Soldier....what War hasn't. (Yes...a statement and not a question!)

Is it a surprise.....no...not really.

Is it tragic....yes...very!

Who is to blame.....everyone of us.

We have allowed the Politicians (civilian and military) to let our involvement in Afghanistan go on way too long. We allowed them to botch the Iraq War as well which led to almost a decade of fighting.

We have seen our Troops deploy repeatedly to both Iraq and Afghanistan....see them endure horrible conditions....death...mayhem...devastating wounds....and one combat tour after another...and a another...and another.

We went shopping, went down the Pub, and carried on as if there were no Wars, bleeding, and dying. It's nothing to do with me....after all we have an all volunteer Military....fighting is their chosen profession.

We have not mobilized for War. We have not renewed conscription, we have not rationed, but we have glorified the Warriors in a most shallow manner.

We supported our Military....except where it matters.

We let them down....by not seeing them brought home as quickly as possible after turning them loose to defeat the enemy. We hampered them with ROE's and policies that prevented them from being effective. We presented a Diplomatic posture that encouraged the Enemy. We tried to play nice and be all Politically Correct all the while dealing with folks who simply see that as being weak.

Before we blame Sgt Bales.....lets really look in the mirror and think about who is also to blame for what happened that night.

He might have pulled the Trigger.....but he sure had a lot of help from the rest of us. Let's judge him fairly....and to do that we have to look at the full array of factors and evidence that played a role in this tragedy.

If we did not speak up against the War and the way it has been conducted....we really have no grounds to speak up against Sgt Bales....as we were his accomplice the way I see it.

For those of you in the Military currently.....look around you....could it be one of your mates that succumbs to the pressure, stress, and ugliness you experience in combat? The line between Duty and plain ol' Murder is very thin at the best of times.....in the worst of times it gets really skinny.

It is time to bring the Troops home. We have lost too many lives, ruined too many lives, and gained not enough for the continued cost we will have to pay for our presence there.

I am a Vietnam Veteran....I know what it feels like to do that. I would not wish that on anyone but I also know when it is time to end the current misery. The Politicians have let us down again....that is the shame of it. The Troops have done their part and done so in an admirable way. The Country has let them down....we let the Politicians get away with their failures.

[L-H]

mate.....:D!

[SunderlandMatt]

What SASless said :D

[Trojan1981]

I'm speechless. You hit the nail on the head as only a veteran could. Well said.

[glojo]

I very humbly apologise if what I say causes offence but I cannot in all good faith sit back and listen to anyone that defends the conduct of a person of any nationality\religion\creed or colour that might have allegedly blown the brains out of a defenceless two year old infant or infants, along with their mothers. Not only were these people shot, but their bodies were then allegedly set alight.

I am NOT IN POSSESSION OF THE FACTS and if there were no deaths of innocent babies along with their mothers then obviously I will apologise but until we all know the facts then should we be condoning or condemning the actions of this individual?

We are in Afghanistan to protect the very people that have allegedly been killed and yes we are facing evil people that will not hesitate to commit inhuman acts.

As soon as I heard about this incident it was to be expected that we would hear a very strong defence regarding the alleged actions, that is what defence counsel is paid to do but if what is alleged happened, did happen then I stand by my words.

Apologies if this post causes offence but I just need to say my previous silence does not in any way mean I agree with the words of a forum member whose posts I have always respected and held in the highest regard.

Respect to ALL current and retired personnel who have fallen, or suffered at the hands of our enemies.

We shall ALWAYS remember them

PS
As I type this there is a feature on Sky News showing the repatriation of the Fallen from Afghanistan... Heart breaking to watch.

Yours sincerely,
John

[Jayand]

Glojo, I couldn't agree with you more under "normal circumstances" however, given that the man has served on multiple, bloody tours in Iraq and Afhanistan where he has seen untold horrors and was indeed himself injured twice, including a brain injury and losing part of his foot! On top of that he witnessed the death of his friend the day before!
Like you say we dont know the facts yet but it would not be a surprise to me or many others
If he didn't genuinely go wibble.
Mental heath issues for our vetetans after what they have been though will be a major concern for a very long time after we finally leave that dusty ****hole.

[Robert G Mugabe]

Must back up SASless.

If you have time have a listen to the following lecture by Karl Marlantes

www.pritzkermilitarylibary.org/Home/karl-marlantes. If link does not work google it.

What he expands on about the vietnam experience could equally apply to the afgan experience.

[Thud105]

If an Afghan soldier on detachment in the US had done exactly the same, would he be allowed to stand trial in Afghanistan?

[Thelma Viaduct]

I fear that if there wasn't a true price to pay, wars based on lies would be even more frequent.

Politicians are scum, all of them.

Wake up !!!!!

[hval]

Well written SASless.

Glojo, I disagree with your thoughts on this one. What the Taliban get away with is absolutely horrendous; considerably worse than what this one soldier has done; considerably worse than what the Western forces have done. The Taliban atrocities are rarely ever mentioned. These atrocities are mainly against Afghanistan citizens.

I do not condone the actions carried out by the US soldier, but living in environments such as he has experienced is bound to cause a fair number of mental abnormalities in many people.

Life experiences are what makes you you.

[Scuttled]

This man is clearly a very broken individual in need of treatment. But he still murdered a great number of already, by accident of birth, unfortunate women and children. Their relatives aren't going to sympathise with him at all and it's probably knocked the whole coalition off what remained of the moral highground out there.

Nobody has won here and nobody can win, short of the locals being permitted to see him being beheaded on a football pitch. That's not going to happen.

What a tragedy this whole intervention/war/conflict is in terms of material progress at home and here (money spent), morality, international common understanding and acceptance of each other and - obviously - lives.

The history books will not be positive or polite about any of this mess.

[walter kennedy]

<<The history books will not be positive or polite about any of this mess. >>
Have faith in Hollywood - they can make honey out of duck sh*t.

[parabellum]

Sent to me via email this morning, relevant, I think;

Capitalism akbar
After reading the headlines about the US soldier who shot up
Afghanistan civilians, I couldn't help noticing an irony. There is
all this clamor to try this guy quickly and execute him, never mind
his having suffered a traumatic brain injury.

Yet this Major Hasan, who shot up Fort Hood while screaming Allah
akbar, still hasn’t stood trial, and they are still debating whether
he was insane, even with the clear evidence regarding his motive:
slay as many infidels as possible.
So we have a guy in a war zone who cracks, and he must be executed immediately.

But this Muslim psychiatrist who was stateside in a nice safe
office all day murders 13, wounds 29 of our own guys, and they try to
argue the poor lad suffered post-traumatic stress syndrome, from
listening to real soldiers who had actual battle experience. Two and
a half years later, they still haven’t tried the murderous bastard.