Handswinging?

[RadioSaigon]

Seems the thread may have been deleted, just as I was really starting to enjoy it!!! :E

With an attitude like that...

...cracked me up -sorry morno, nothing personal, just strikes me that maybe FDW has been taking the piss!!! Some pretty amazing attitudes evident in the (apparently recently deceased) thread, particularly from some that apparently think pretty highly of themselves ;-)

To the topic: as I have stated countless times before, always treat every prop as live, all the time, every time, unless you have proven it dead. Lots of emphasis, I know -but your life may depend on it. The only way I know of to prove an operational engine/prop dead is to conduct a proper mag function/dead-cut check yourself prior to shutdown. Only then can you be sure... to a degree. Hotspots within the engine may obviate a proven dead mag, allowing the engine to fire, however briefly. It doesn't take much to kill you.

To handswinging itself: Legalities... I am unaware of any legal instruments that specifically prevent a pilot from employing the Armstrong Start method should the need arise! It's always better that prior training be undertaken prior to needing to employ an Armstrong... find a good instructor, someone that knows. The advisability? Some suggest simply finding an engineer to recharge the battery... what if it ain't the battery? Maybe the keys have been lost, maybe the nearest engineer is several hundred miles away from your out-of-contact location, or any number of other potentials that lead to contemplation of an Armstrong start. Whatever, unless the situation is desperate it is always a minimum 2-pilot operation. Think it through thoroughly, set it up carefully, execute the process deliberately. A successful outcome s likely.

caveat: on injected engines and those in the 'big-bore' range 520, 540+ etc., it's always easier if the engine is cold!!!

If your problem is a flat battery due cold-soaking, try this: set-up & prime as for a normal start, and crank (it just may start!). If it doesn't, crank the guts out of the battery IAW your AFM starter limitations. Crank as much out of the battery as you can. No start. Shut down completely including the Master. Walk away from the aircraft. Go make a cup of coffee. Give it 15-30 minutes. Go back, set-up and prime again. Have another go -you may be very happy with the results! The idea behind this is, dragging a lot of current out of the (cold soaked) battery generates a lot of heat. Let that heat warm your battery for a period of time, then have another go. The start may be sluggish, but if it's effective, who cares? ;-)

[morno]

No offence taken RS. Whether he was taking the piss or not, swearing at other ppruners (plus the private message I got afterwards abusing me) is not on.

Anyway, back to the topic. It was educational..... mostly.

morno

[jas24zzk]

I didn't see what went on much after tailie told us to get serious. And not sure I wanna know


The subject does hold some promise. :ok:

[RadioSaigon]

hmmmm ok. There must have been more to the thread than I saw then. I too have received a PM, to which a reply is unlikely.

Yeah, the thread has promise, as long as OWT's are checked at the door :ok:

[jas24zzk]

Not sure about total killing of OWT's, they do serve several useful purposes:-

1. A good giggle when you're feeling down
2. A start point for an angry conversation
or more productively
3. A start point upon which a pilot with his licence to learn can go and try to learn enough to invalidate the old wives tales.

The problem with OWT's, is they exist, and are deeply imbedded in our community. I doubt they will ever be erased.
A recently dead thread on mixtures proves that old dogs can learn new tricks. One hell of an informative thread that was. (thanx Jaba &co) Threads like that should be encouraged, and maybe our mods could do a lil more than delete threads that go haywire, esp if the topic is interesting.

[717tech]

Well that thread didn't last long...
I guess it’s relevant to this topic; the art of "testing compression" during a walk around. During my initial multi rating, they had us turning the props on a Baron 55.... Never did like the idea!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I too, got a cryptic & swearing response......

To Wannabee
GOOD-BYE!!!:}:}:}

[Wally Mk2]

To the subject at hand.Unless it's absolutely needed to survive (eg stranded outback & yr gunna die if ya can't get the beast started & fly out) I see no need for hand starting any engine that was designed to be mechanically started,it's just too dangerous & not worth the risk. Flying is dangerous enuf lets not start out an aviation adventure with a high risk of dieing even before we take off!
I was in Broome once many yrs ago & watched a guy trying to start a C210 on his own(no one else in the cockpit), it was a hot day & he had only just flown in & flattened the batt trying to restart the beast.No tnxs I thought!

Interesting story as a side note to this subject. Also in Broome in the early 80's (great place back then pre commercialization, stuffed now!) there was a Catholic Bishop by the name of Jobst who flew around the Kimberlies etc spreading the word to his parishioners in light A/C.One day he was trying to hand start his C182 at Broome (C210 came next, that's the one I used to fly) with a couple of nuns on board & after a little while the motor started & the A/C promptly moved off quite fast across the airfield & ran into a ditch where it flipped over. Result.... busted plane & busted nuns no doubt, God was I think trying to make a point on that day:) That's the story I heard anyway amongst others stories, but there for another day:)



Wmk2

[osmosis]

Without moving too far off the original thread's OP, why has no-one mentioned connecting an external power supply to the a/c? (typically a battery cart or motor vehicle)

[roundsounds]

Having spent many years flying aeroplanes requiring handstarting I would offer the following suggestions:
Do not attempt handstarting until you have received instruction from a competent person
Complete several starts under the trainers supervision
Ensure you have a competent pilot in a control seat when you handstart

The only reg I recall relates to pax, you are not permitted to have pax onboard unless there is a duly licenced pilot at the controls while the hand starting is being completed.

Here's a link to a CASA AC with some guidance to engineers re ground running engines. It makes a reference to hand starting.
http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:OLDASSET:683264594:svPath=/newrules/parts/091/download/,svFileName=ac091-240.pdf

If you need someone to provide you with instruction on handstarting PM me.

[Wally Mk2]

'os' that's a valid question but I think that comes down to be included in the common sense part of aviation(which is sadly lacking a lot), you exhaust all possible starting ways (such as you mentioned) prior to hand swinging a prop, if at all.


Wmk2

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr Saigon,

Re "Maybe the keys have been lost, maybe the nearest engineer is several hundred miles away from your out-of-contact location, or any number of other potentials that...."

May I ask, if the keys have been lost, the magneto select switch (L, R, Both) would not be able to be selected to the 'on' position.....so no amount of hand swinging is gunna do you any good, I would suggest.

Just a thought.

:ok:

[RadioSaigon]

Quite true Griffo. Losing the key does make manipulation of the key-barrel bothersome...

However, that's exactly what happened to me one day when the boss departed NZMF with the keys to my airframe in his pocket and a 206-full of tourists that had to be back in NZQN to make ongoing connections! The boss never did adequately explain how/why the keys wound-up in his pocket... oh well.

Being a very fresh CPL at that time, all manner of aviation trivia were still abundant in mind, leaving a relatively simple issue to be resolved by twisting (if memory serves) only 3 wires from the back of the key barrel together to allow 2 hot mags...

Now I'm wondering why I didn't try that other wire and see if it would have engaged the starter for me too... would have saved a LOT of Armstrong swinging to get that stubborn bitch running! :eek:

[RadioSaigon]

...why has no-one mentioned connecting an external power supply to the a/c?

To my way of thinking, contemplation of an Armstrong start pre-supposes all other avenues of achieving an engine start have been exhausted or are impractical.

I see no need for hand starting any engine that was designed to be mechanically started,it's just too dangerous & not worth the risk...

Strikes me that it was not too long ago that most if not all aircraft were started by variants of the Armstrong method -if you want to be really pedantic, they still are!!! We just use electrical and mechanical means today to apply the requisite force to the crank-shaft. We still supply the engine with the fuel, air and ignition support it needs and provide the initial motive force by whatever means we have best available. Suck, squeeze, bang, blow is still the same -we just need to get the process self-sustaining.

In my opinion, it is nonsensical to write-off handswinging as you have done. GA is fraught with possibilities for pilots to find themselves in a position where it may be the only practical, realistic opportunity to achieve their mission without major inconvenience, physical damage to an airframe (beach landing, dead battery, rising tide anyone?) or major expense getting a qualified repairer, spares and tools to the aircraft.

I'm not about to write a treatise here explaining how I do it or how I think it should be done. I am going to repeat what I said earlier: get training!!! Personally I'd tend to chose someone that does a fair bit of it -a Tiger Moth operator, for example. They're a fairly benign aircraft to swing, there's a few of them about, the people operating them are most likely well-practised and have robust, effective systems in-place and the principles you'll learn are in broad strokes applicable to whatever you may have to Armstrong in future, with type-specific variations, of course.

It's not a process conducted solely by Captain Barry Strongjaw types solely to impress their femme fatales... it's something you need to learn, because the situation may arise at some point that you need to swing an engine. It's a fairly simple, safe process if conducted properly and underpinned by knowledge gained from proper training. Basic Airmanship, really.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr Saigon,

At the risk of repeating the 'other' thread here....it ain't all 'cheese n' bikkies' to handswing.....:=

The older taildraggers have the prop positioned in a relatively 'high' position, due to the tailwheel, and so are relatively easy, and can be done fairly safely....some, like the Tiger, even have the mag switches on the outside to enhance safety.;)
The Auster is not very 'high' and more 'caution' is required..IMHO.:)

Being in a 'high' position, enables the prop to be swung 'down' whilst standing BEHIND, with one hand on the strut for example, to ensure one's balance during this delicate manoeuvre, and the switches are ...just...there!:ok:

It doesn't require any force on the downswing - just the 'click' of the impulse mag will do the trick, then, when the donk fires, the 'other' mag switch is turned on...

More modern tri-cycle u/c acft have the prop in a relatively 'low' position, where at the point of swinging the blade down, has the swinger bending forward, and down - off balance even - towards the disc of the prop as it rotates....:eek:

On occasion, with 'someone-who-knows' - NOT just 'someone' - in the cockpit to work the switches & throttle, it is possible to rotate the prop so that the swing is horizontal - but the swinger is generally still bending down and on a point of balance....

NOT really 'safe'....IMHO.:=

'Basic Airmanship'..?? USED to be in the days of the taildraggers - days of yore...
Not so now, I fear.:sad:

'Basic Airmanship'?
EVEN - 'Airmanship'..?? NOW that's a whole new ball-game for some of the 'younger gen.' so it would seem(?) ...but that's a whole new thread..... :sad:

Hope I haven't bored anybody.....:uhoh:

Cheers:ok:

[spinex]

Must say I'm surprised at the amount of negativity toward what I consider a rather useful addition to the quiver of skills that make a pilot. It isn't difficult to do, but there are a number of traps for young players so I'd echo the advice above, get someone who genuinely knows how to do it to show you how - and I don't mean your average big city instructor here.

A few thoughts - I know Tigers are generally started from behind, but on more modern types with metal or composite props; that trailing edge is sharp and a backwards kick could spoil your day quite comprehensively. From in front you can push onto the face of the prop without curling your fingers over the trailing edge.
- know which magneto to use for starting (RTFM!)
- Use chocks.

[RadioSaigon]

We're going to have to agree to differ then, it seems Griffo. It wasn't that long ago I had to Armstrong the L engine of a high-wing twin, wearing 540's... that was a 3-man job. Another pilot at the switches, me on the prop and the 3rd member of the team hanging onto my belt assisting with providing the requisite motive force (successfully!) but primarily to keep my bits out of the propeller arc -also successfully! The necessity was there, the methodology, training and manpower were available, a successful safe outcome was achieved. It is still not something I contemplate without specific need, careful preparation or deliberate fore-thought. In that particular case, 2 type-rated pilots were available and an engineer who had unsuccessfully assisted in previous start efforts, prior to the Armstrong. It was the engineer on my belt.

BTW: Mr. Saigon (my Dad) passed away some years ago now. He had conducted many thousands more Armstrong starts than I anticipate I ever will... and died peacefully of terminal old age. You can call me Radio -or just RS, as you prefer ;)

[RadioSaigon]

Must say I'm surprised at the amount of negativity toward what I consider a rather useful addition to the quiver of skills that make a pilot...

Well spoken spinex, as am I.

You raise good points, which should all be raised and addressed in any comprehensive training for swinging. The mag you're looking for to assist your start is the IMPULSE mag on most engines, usually the Left Mag. Other engines may have Shower of Sparks Mags, again, usually the Left. If you do have a Shower of Sparks Mag, you will need someone sitting at the controls holding the key or switch to the START position whilst you are swinging the prop. Otherwise, no sparks. Know your airframe. Again, basic Airmanship.

[Frank Arouet]

Auster, like the Tiger was swung from behind port side, but with the side window open to allow you to get to the switches quickly. I've seen PA28's swung from behind, starboard side of course, but I didn't like the feel of it and have only done Yank engines from the front, but acutely aware of an escape plan etc. The Chipmunk,.. well I, and most all I know swung it from the front in an upwards motion with the right hand. Seemed sensible if the action had you walking away from the danger.

Saw a mate successfully swing a Chieftan once. Port engine. But really, I would consider alternatives before I tried it on something like that.

Given how many times I've been in the boonies with a dead battery, (PA-22 had switches under the pilot's seat which made for common flat battery's), the proceedure should be taught, or at least demonstrated.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

From in front you can push onto the face of the prop without curling your fingers over the trailing edge.

Not a comment on your opinions or methods, but from the front of the aircraft, you are pushing on the back (cambered surface) of the blade.

The face of the blade is the side you are looking at from the cockpit, ie. Lower surface of the airfoil (in a single engine tractor prop for those who want to suggest pusher or other types:rolleyes:).

[Centaurus]

Basic Airmanship'?
EVEN - 'Airmanship'..?? NOW that's a whole new ball-game for some of the 'younger gen.' so it would seem(?) .

Is there some sort of CASA paperwork that certifies a pilot is competent to hand-start an aeroplane type. Like this in my first RAAF log book date 16/4/1952. Certified

1. I have read and understood Air Board and RAAF Station Uranquinty Flight Orders relating to flying and operational limitations of the DH-82 aircraft and the Gypsy Major engine.
2. I am conversant with:-
(a) Action in the event of fire.
(b) Procedure of abandoning the aircraft.
(c) Fuel, oil and ignition systems.
(d) Starting and stopping of the engine (including airscrew swinging)

Date 16/4/52........Signed.... Trainee Pilot Centaurus.
............................................................ ...........................

Strangely enough there was no such certificate certifying that we were conversant with airscrew swinging of the Wirraway or Mustang. Maybe because they were never meant to be hand-swung. Well neither are Cessna's, Barons or a myriad other present day aeroplanes. Lawyers would have a field day if someone gets an arm chopped off simply because someone could not be bothered to fix a flat battery or crook starter motor.

PS. During the war in an emergency the props of the DC3 Dakota could be hand swung either by a human chain of four or five people linking hands and some sucker to pull the prop. Or putting a rope around the prop dome and having a jeep pull the rope to get the prop turning.

No charge for the history lesson, chaps:E

[spinex]

Wahll I'll be buggered, so it is. Will have to be sure and tell the old geezer that taught me that he had it all ar$3 about, all these years.:8

[blackhand]

Sliced Seminole (http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/VH-KBZ-ShreddedSeminole.htm)
Nobody died, but still damnable

BH

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr C,

The 'visual pic' of someone even thinking about the Merlin......I'm not even sure I could turn one 'over'... once......

As you did say, 'strange' there were no certificates for same.....:p

:ok::ok:

[Slippery_Pete]

leaving a relatively simple issue to be resolved by twisting (if memory serves) only 3 wires from the back of the key barrel together to allow 2 hot mags...

If the type of people who handswing props also think that twisting a few mag wires together is an adequate and safe solution, that tells me a lot.

My recollection is that magnetos are made dead by connecting the P lead to ground.

However, twisting some wires together by hand which could vibrate loose at any time and stop the engine... If I had been your boss, I would have told you never to try and do me any favours again, EVER. I can just imagine a light plane at low altitude, gliding with a failed engine while the pilot fiddles around under the dash with some magneto wiring. Nice :ok:

I will never hand swing a prop, period. And will never encourage a junior pilot to do so either. There may be some people with excellent training, vast experience who never make mistakes... but the reality is, that by engaging in prop swinging, you are placing yourself in a group of people where death can and does occur on a regular basis.

I survived many thousands of hours in the 90's at remote locations with unreliable GA aircraft and never swung a prop or twisted metaphorical wires together. Yes, it resulted in a few ****ty bosses at times with aircraft grounded in the bush, but they got over it. In fact, I remember hearing an owner/CP say to a junior pilot on the phone "the only thing that will cost me more $ than flying out a rescue plane with an engineer, is you trying to be a hero and chopping your arm off or my aircraft running away and pranging into a ditch".

He was a smart man.

[Wally Mk2]

'RS' I think yr drawing a very looong bow there with ref to mech devices to start engines is the same as hand swinging. Yr connection to both being technically one of the same are miles apart as a starter motor used for starting an engine is far safer than the 'armstrong' method hence we have them in the first place today! The core subject here is safety or just how safe is it with hand swinging & in my opinion ( & that's all it is) hand propping is damn dangerous & should be avoided at all costs in today's modern A/C.

'MIHC' you too are drawing a loong bow with ref to yr prop face. Whilst you are technically correct as far as the operation of a prop goes it's generally accepted that the front of the prop is the part that you face whilst holding it during the dangerous act of hand swinging same.

Still at the end of the day it's about choice. Being able to hand start an engine doesn't mean yr any better than a pilot who can't or doesn't want to, the latter may simply want to improve his chances of flying the next day:).

'slippery' I'm with you:ok:

Wmk2

[Capt Fathom]

Once hand swung a C206. It took a back-breaking 30mins! But it was worth the effort. The swim home was 60nm! :E

[Fondair]

Still at the end of the day it's about choice. Being able to hand start an engine doesn't mean yr any better than a pilot who can't or doesn't want to, the former may simply want to improve his chances of upgrading to the company twin the next day.

Fixed that one for you Wally. Lets get the job done! :E

[CHAIRMAN]

Gipsy engines and others built in the days when hand propping was the accepted method, allow you to position the prop on the crankshaft such that the compression occurs about at the horizontal position, and because most are taildraggers, the compression occurs above waist height.

On the other hand, most 2 blade Lyco engines (not sure about Contis) have a defined crank/prop position to reduce vibration/harmonics, and which, if hand swinging, places the compression point about knee height or below, a position which makes SAFE hand propping almost impossible.

ALL hand swinging should be treated with the utmost caution and full concentration (there are NO second chances if you get it wrong).

I regularly hand prop the Gipsy, but would have to be really stuck to contemplate the exercise on a Cherokee - as stated in other posts, the risks are simply not worth it, don't even think about it in a modern aircraft unless you have been trained specifically by someone very experienced on swinging the particular type.

Like the idea of the jeep on the DC3 - very inventive and above all,safety conscious:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr RS,

I note your remark re the 'high wing' twin...and that would confirm my point re the physiology of swinging a 'high' vs a 'low' mounted prop.

May the force be with you....


Frank,
'Horses for courses',....Not being a critic, just explaining why I do it the 'other way'...
I still swing the Chippy from the rear, if only because -- I can easily see, and talk to the little man in the cockpit - you know, switches off /on etc...and,
- IF the little man in the cockpit has NOT pulled on sufficient brake, then the 'thing' will simply walk AWAY from me until the leading edge of the wing touches my backside. Then I am the brake.
- Plus, I get to hold onto the engine cowl whilst I pull the prop down with my left hand, so I will not overbalance / don't have to 'step back' etc etc.
Works for me.

Whatever works for you is good too.


And Hi Pete,
I'm with you.

I would have sacked the bloke on arrival I reckon.
Imagine, you are coming up the valley into Queenstown, over water, and the wires you so carefully 'soldered together / twisted crossed', (Of course there was no soldering iron...) decided to part from each other, with the pilot sitting at the wheel....
I cannot even imagine him being able to slide the seat back sufficiently, fly the aeroplane, locate and twist the 'right' wires back again - UNDER the panel - by 'touch'..(?) and restore 'order' to the engine....

I reckon his SLF would have got very wet!! And they definitely would have missed their flight!!
However, obviously, they all 'made it' this time around......
But.......
And, this was a COMMERCIAL OP??

Cheers:ok::ok:

[Centaurus]

Former military pilots who learned to fly on Tiger Moths were taught to hand swing the prop from the front of the aircraft never the rear where the leading edge of the wing could knock you into the prop if the aircraft happened to jump the chocks, or the chocks slide on wet grass.

Extract from the Royal Air Force Flying Training Manual Air Publication 129 Revised November 1937. Reprinted June 1938. Part1 - Landplanes

Chapter 2 Hand swinging. Para 41 (i) "A qualified officer or airman is to occupy the pilot's seat, another officer or airman trained in hand swinging, is to stand in front of the aircraft.

It was clear all those years ago that the RAF knew what was dangerous when it came to hand swinging and this is what was published at Para 24 Chapter 2 of AP 129 in 1937. Maybe readers might laugh at these words now but this is what was the Truth.

General The following regulations have been laid down so that aero engines may be started with minimum danger to all concerned. The neglect of these regulations has caused many very serious accidents.

The methods of starting. It is usually impossible to start a modern high powered engine by hand swinging. The following mechanical means are employed:-

1..Compressed gas starters.
2. Compressed air starters.
3. Hand cranking gear.
4. Inertia starters.
5. Electric starters.
6. Hucks starters.

A description of these mechanical methods is given in paras48 to 54 and the standard drill for all methods of starting is laid down in paras. 44 to 47. Hand starting is not to be attempted when one of the above mentioned methods is available

Seems the Royal Air Force of 1937 paid much greater respect to the dangers of hand starting than the current generation of general aviation pilots in Australia?

[RadioSaigon]

OK, fair enough. Hotwiring Mags was not the best call I could have made -but let's not lose sight of the fact this was 30+ years ago. Things were different then. It was the end of an era when things really were done differently. Some of the stories I could relate from that time would truly get the collective PPRuNe 'gurus' panties in a bunch :E At no time did I say I thought it was a good idea -or if faced with a similar situation today that I would consider a similar course of action. I related that story to illustrate a point, not to advocate a similar course of action today. Dare I say it, the realities of being a young, fresh CPL in their 1st job at that time with hundreds of others barking at your heels for that job led many a young pilot to do things that wiser heads may not have... not all of us survived, not all that died passed due directly aviation related activities -none that I'm aware of as a consequence of Armstrong starting. Perhaps, if some of those climbing on their high-horses here are as old and experienced as their profiles and comments suggest, you may have done something back in your past career you would not consider now? Please, try to retain some balance in your comments.

My point of course is/was that handswinging should not be written off as simply too dangerous to contemplate, as some here certainly appear to be. If you are properly trained, think the process through thoroughly, plan and prepare appropriately and execute as planned, handswinging an engine may just save the day. The process must be treated with the respect it deserves. In my opinion it is just another skill that pilots need to be aware of, properly trained in and fully cognizant of the risks inherent.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr C,

I appreciate your post - however, 'horses for courses'.....

Most G/A pilots would by necessity, have to operate on their own from time to time.

As a PPL, I too was shown the RACNSW 'way' of swinging Chippies from the front, but, it did require two people.

When I was instructing on Tigers and Chippies, later, I was shown the benefits of swinging from the rear, by a VERY experienced Tiger owner / pilot who had his own croppie business, was very well respected in the industry by all - including the Regional DCA examiners of the time.
I say all of this to give the guy credibility.

I must say, I much prefer the extra safety of doing it this way - especially when solo.

I still operate my Tiger that way.

Current methodology at RACWA is 'from the rear'.

'Horses For Courses'......

Cheers:ok::ok:

[kaz3g]

1. There isn't enough space between the arc of the prop and the leading edge of the wing on a PA28 to safely swing from behind in my view.

2. Remember that at the bottom of the arc on a TW aircraft the prop is closer to your legs/private bits than it is to your head at the top if you swing from the front and vice versa... hence swing from the rear.

3. My Auster, like many others, is fitted with a Lycoming and an electrical starter.

4. Enjoy the wise words of Dick Gower, Chipmunk owner and CFI with more than 12,000 hours of instruction here http://www.ycem.com.au/images/CFS/armstrongstarter.pdf

kaz

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

'MIHC' you too are drawing a loong bow with ref to yr prop face. Whilst you are technically correct as far as the operation of a prop goes it's generally accepted that the front of the prop is the part that you face whilst holding it during the dangerous act of hand swinging same.

No apologies here. It's either right or it's not and a 100% incorrect "generally accepted" term needs to be taught correctly from the start, not perpetuated because people need to think about it. I can see what spinny meant, but this would be just another example of perpetuation if not corrected.

Hopefully, thing like this encourage people to get back to a bit of theory from time to time.:ok:

Left drift and right drift can easily be interpreted either way too.
Are we heading left to allow for left x/w or heading right to prevent being pushed left?

[osmosis]

The very fact different aero engines can be hand-started by different methods, by different people with success indicates it can be safe, yes? It has been done and will continue to be done, a matter of necessity.

But one point not really appreciated so far is swinging a 2 blade prop on the C185/188 and others of similar configuration. No prizes for realising the prop hub is high, the tail is low, and the down-swinging blade moves forward in its rotational plane. But you can't reach it of course, it's too high. You have to push the lower blade up, moving toward the prop as you do so.

It's a pity more lames didn't have more input into this thread.

[Frank Arouet]

I have, by necessity swung a PA-32 in the bush, but it's a big ask and at my age now is nothing I would contemplate.

A lot of 60-70's era, IO 500 type engined aeroplanes had external power jacks and most aeroplanes had cables. Said something of the battery technology of the day I guess. Modern battery's are better of course, but we still get caught sometimes.

Excepting Flight of The Phoenix stuff, I personally limit hand swinging to the smaller engines. As for fiddling with electrics or anything under the cowl, (except for homebuilts etc), I would expect the presence of a LAME in spite of pressure from "management".

[baron_beeza]

It's a pity more lames didn't have more input into this thread.

I am sure many LAME's here will be following this.
I have worked for the Tiger Club in the UK and that was my job there.. I can't think of one aircraft at the time that had an electric starter fitted.

I also did my share of glider towing in a Cub sans battery etc also.

I last swung a prop about 10 days ago, - a Tomahawk.
Easy to do but you have to be aware of the starter Bendix engagement and plan around that. You also need to be aware of the magneto set-up so you start on the impulsed mag only. Generally the left mag as in this case. Some aircraft will have both mags fitted with the couplings and the loop at the back of the switch opened accordingly. My own Tomahawk has that arrangement.

My experience of pilots trying to swing in this day and age has been that they have little idea. Fair enough, they have not been taught.... the best thing in that case is to not even think about attempting it.
Just look at the runaway aircraft scenario alone, - it is many more than you would expect.

I think another point being overlooked is the starting procedure of a typical 1970's GA machine.
I see guys cranking and cranking not even realising that only half the plugs are firing. If you flood the lower plugs then those cylinders are out of the equation. These guys expect an engine to basically run on two cylinders.
Often you can get a result by releasing the switch from the 'Start' position as soon as it fires. This will allow ALL spark plugs to fire and may be enough to catch the engine. Especially if it rotating reasonably fast on the starter anyway.
Some aircraft have had their HT leads arranged so that the 'Left' mag actually supplies the top plugs on both banks... it would pay to talk to the LAME if you think that may be the case with your machine.
I have also seen the mag 'P' leads reversed so that the wrong mag is trying to do the starting, - ie the Impulse is actually disabled during the start.


I think we all appreciate the risks involved in hand swinging or in getting out the jumpers. They are very real risks. We need to think and act accordingly.
Many do not..

[Frank Arouet]

Getting CASA to include anything on any training syllabus that doesn't give them Carte Blanche to make your life miserable is a waste of time, so the technique should be at least demonstrated by somebody competent during training.

[27/09]

Imagine, you are coming up the valley into Queenstown, over water, and the wires you so carefully 'soldered together / twisted crossed', (Of course there was no soldering iron...) decided to part from each other, with the pilot sitting at the wheel....
I cannot even imagine him being able to slide the seat back sufficiently, fly the aeroplane, locate and twist the 'right' wires back again - UNDER the panel - by 'touch'..(?) and restore 'order' to the engine....

I'm amazed no one else has picked up on the "twisted together" comment.

Actually just undoing the wires, "P leads", from the switch is all that's needed to make the mags live. The mag switch connects the "P leads" of the mags to earth when the mags are "OFF". The earthing or grounding of the "P lead" stops the mag producing a spark.

So there's no need to worry about the leads becoming untwisted though you would want to ensure the leads didn't come in contact with the airframe and thus earthing the "P lead". This would be very easy to ensure. Though for the engine to stop both "P leads" would need to be touching the airframe.

I would consider undoing the "P leads" as a very practical way of solving the dilemma described by RS. I cannot see why his boss should have thought about sacking him. The main issue to consider is that the mags would be "live" all the times and extreme care is required WRT to touching or going near the prop when the aircraft is parked.

[blackhand]

The earthing or grounding of the "P lead" stops the mag producing a spark.
27/09 please do not bring rational thought into this thread.

BH

[27/09]

Quote:
27/09 please do not bring rational thought into this thread.

BH

Sorry, I'm not sure what came over me, how silly of me. :E

[Lasiorhinus]

I spent over an hour yesterday trying to hand-swing the engine on the Caravan. Gave me a good workout, but I couldnt get the darn engine to start...

[27/09]

I spent over an hour yesterday trying to hand-swing the engine on the Caravan. Gave me a good workout, but I couldnt get the darn engine to start...
What were the compressions like? :O

[RadioSaigon]

Before the thread descends into farce...

You are dead right 27/09. Removing the p-leads and insulating left hot mags, with no need to twist them together. It has been many years since I have even thought of that particular event, far less had reason to consider the "mechanics" of making it happen. Memory is imperfect. As a check of my logbook reveals, that flight indeed terminated at NZQN -coincidentally our maintenance base- and subsequent flights that day were in another airframe. That also gels with my recollection of the airframe going straight to maintenance after that flight for rectification.

Further, thanks for the generosity of your comments, a rarity here in PPRuNe, where many individuals seem to affect an extreme "holier than thou" attitude. More than once I have wondered if the truth were known, how many of those individuals could say with complete honesty that they have never done anything within their aviation practice that others may justifiably level a criticism? I suspect that one finger for counting would be more than enough. I wonder how many would be honest enough to relate their errors, allowing others to critique and possibly learn? Maybe the fingers of one hand would suffice.

I see this as partially an excess of Political Correctness, partially an excessive belief in individual "rightness" and the assumed anonymity of the internet, leading people to express thoughts they would never (and in a manner they would never) in a more personal situation. This whole thread illustrates that, in my opinion.

Politicians, lawyers and the "feminisation" of society have lead to a totally risk-averse culture and fear of speaking your mind throughout every industry, instead paving the way for incompetents (those that cannot do what we do) to dictate how we do what we do. Utter nonsense.

Hand-swinging an aircraft used to be so common as to be utterly unremarkable. Certainly throughout my training, it was considered a valid and acceptable means of retrieving a situation gone pear-shaped, by whatever mechanism. That mere discussion of the technique causes such rabid responses is to me gobsmacking.

Contrary to Wally MkII's assertion that I was drawing a long bow stating that starting an engine today is just a variant of handswinging... give it a little thought perhaps. The engine is still started today primarily because a force is exerted that leads to rotation of the crankshaft. Whether that force is applied by turning a key, flicking a switch or swinging a prop, the end result is the same. The engine starts.

Not such a long bow at all, methinks.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Only another 2,485 RPM to go........

From the front or from the rear..??

[Wanderin_dave]

If you want to learn how to swing a motor into life I believe a course is being held this Saturday in Maryborough (Vic). I recall seeing the details in the current 'Trader'.

Myself, I have a few thousand Armstrong starts under my belt (in aircraft designed to be hand swung). I think, if stuck, I would have a go at swinging a modern engine. Not without a good sit down and think about it first though.

As to the whole 'behind or in front' question. It goes either way. So long as you have a solid, well thought through routine all should go well. I can't recall ever having a surprise or scare.

There is no CASA requrement for competency in hand swinging in general, but every commercial op I have flown for has required training and a demonstration of competency.

As with most things 'old school' it's a great skill to have mastered, will teach you a lot about mixture and suck, squeeze, bang, blow........or tire out that arm!

Golden rule; if your hand is on the prop you are PIC!

[Air Tourer]

You want keen? Do not try this. A commuter was having big trouble starting the stb. engine, battery about to give out, pilot grinding away on starter, engineer up close and when the engine balked on some compressions he would grab a blade and pull it through. Did that a few times, can't remember if he got it going, but didn't see any blood.

[metalman2]

OIf you want to learn how to swing a motor into life I believe a course is being held this Saturday in Maryborough (Vic). I recall seeing the details in the current 'Trader'.
I do believe the fella running that training event will be unable to be there, he crashed after takeoff recently, the advert must have been done before the accident.

[Captain Dart]

The gentleman in question was John Fisher, who had a collection of de Havilland aircraft in a little museum at Maryborough. He had also flown a Tiger from England to Australia.

The same Tiger, being flown by John, crashed and burned after takeoff at Maryborough recently, killing him and his passenger.

John received a very impressive send-off at Bendigo cathedral, which included a fly past of vintage aircraft.

[Wanderin_dave]

O Quote:
If you want to learn how to swing a motor into life I believe a course is being held this Saturday in Maryborough (Vic). I recall seeing the details in the current 'Trader'.
I do believe the fella running that training event will be unable to be there, he crashed after takeoff recently, the advert must have been done before the accident.

Thanks for the update metalman, Very sorry to hear that.
:(

[Pinky the pilot]

I made the post below about four years ago in another thread.



I was shown the technique (Handswinging a prop) by the then Chief Pilot of Douglas Airways when I started with them in January1990. This was just after Scott L and myself had completed the endorsement training on the Bongo. The CP said to us,
''Right you blokes. Now I'll show you something you might find useful. Say it's late on a Friday afternoon, you're on a strip the other side of the Owen Stanleys, you just want to get back to Moresby and go to the the Aero Club for the Friday night barbie and pissup and a starter motor goes u/s!()
So this is what you do..''

He set the park brake on the aircraft (260hp BN2a) and with ignition off set the prop to a compression stroke. Then after priming the engines normally, set the throttle of the engine to be hand started fully closed saying that the engine would start just on the idle jet. He then selected master switch and both magnetos on and climbed out and swung the prop. After about four or five swings the engine started and ran quite happily at idle.

Believe it or not but one fine Friday afternoon about 12 months later the above scenario occurred! I was indeed the other side of the Owen Stanleys desiring only to get to the Club Dero for the aforementioned BBQ and pissup and the starter on the RH engine went U/S!

After a few naughty words I set about trying the technique shown me and finally about 20 or so swings the engine started! I still remember the screams of laughter and derision being directed at me by the locals as I swung and swung at this seemingly recalcitrant piece of machinery and being somewhat thankful that I could'nt understand the 'ples tok,' otherwise I might have been offended.

But when that engine finally started, the silence from all the locals was most gratifying!! And within about four minutes I had climbed in, started the other engine and was airborne back to Moresby.

The first 'strong drink' at the Club Dero that night never tasted better!

[Wally Mk2]

"RS" I think you have totally missed my point but no matter it's all about choice at the end of the day, I'd chose not to hand start an engine as I value what body parts I have, it's simply too dangerous (for me):)


Wmk2

[baron_beeza]

He then selected master switch and both magnetos on and climbed out and swung the prop.

I have far too much respect for the engine, prop and my parts to even think about swinging with an advanced mag. Why would you want to ?
The O-540 is timed to something like 23 degrees BTDC... the chances of it firing back at you are just too large to even contemplate the exercise.

I have tried swinging an Islander with the Bendix still engaged, - after the failed start.... it did not take long to determine that Plan B was going to be the better option.

You may have been lucky on the night, possibly even very lucky.
I doubt you would ever see a LAME swinging against an advanced magneto.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

'Tis 9.30 pm on Friday evening, and I have just finished watching on ABC TV, 'Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries', and there for all to see was a man, probably the aircraft owner (?) handswinging the prop on Tiger Moth VH-PSD....and....he did it from the rear, then flicked the 'other' mag switch on!!!
Bravo!

Cheers:ok::ok:

[Lodown]

Haven't needed to do it for years, but handswung several Bonanzas, Cessnas and Pipers. Still have 10 digits. Make sure to just use the tips of your fingers on the prop trailing edge with some degree of pressure applied away from the prop so that your hand pulls out of the prop arc when the prop moves forward under its own power, and put the off foot forward: eg. right hand, right foot forward, as it minimises the (accidental) opportunity for the body to fall into the prop arc. And be prepared to jump/run like hell to the side if the guy on the brakes has still got his mind on the girl from the bar last night!

To expand on Centaurus' comments, old timers from PNG make mention about hand swinging DC-3's with a rope and a line of locals.

[27/09]

(He then selected master switch and both magnetos on and climbed out and swung the prop.)

I have far too much respect for the engine, prop and my parts to even think about swinging with an advanced mag. Why would you want to ?


Baron Beeza, I think the point of your post was lost.

I guessing you were referring to the fact that usually only one mag has the impulse coupling and therefore a retarded spark for starting. Why would you start with both mags on? I agree. Only the left mag on, is the normal for starting, though I do know of one or two aircraft that have impulses on both mags.

This raises the issue of key start aircraft without mag switches that are separate from the starter switch. My understanding is on these aircraft when the key is tuned to the start position the right mag is grounded to stop any chance of a spark from the advanced mag. How do you stop that mag from firing when swinging the prop? You can't, so you always run the risk of a back fire.

[kaz3g]

The Crash Comic has quite an article on the perils of wrapping fingers over the propellor when hand starting and Australian Flying has a useful article on how magnetos do their thing.

Each mag has a P lead and when we do our run-ups we ground the left mag when we select "right" and the right mag when we select "left". As you say, we also ground the right mag when we go past "both" to engage the starter.

Start on the left mag only when handswinging but be aware that a broken P lead on the right mag will probably cause it to backfire.

Kaz

[crwjerk]

KAZ....... it reminds me of Darwin "crash test dummy" who hand swung his dad's 210 and it went off into the bushes in about 1994. Callsign VH - CAZ

[kaz3g]

VHS-CAZ? Well, probably not as embarassing as the guy who turned one over in the RVAC engineer's hangar and chucked toolboxes and ladders to the roof when it fired without warning.

Or the DH82 owner who set the throttle a little too open and had his machine jump the chocks. He got around as far as the wingtip and, because it was trying to spear off already, grabbed hold tight. This created a short circular movement until he lost his grip...

Kaz

[kaz3g]

And for a bedtime story...

Runaway - told by Tom Ware, NSW (http://www.australianstorytelling.org.au/txt/runaway.php)

Enjoy!

Kaz

[blackhand]

Coincidently, latest Flight Safety has article on hand propping.
Go figure

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

LUVLY Kaz,.....

I do remember the 'incident'...and the RAAF NEVER did live it down....to be 'outgunned' by the RAN..!!!

Cheers:D:D

[Pinky the pilot]

baron_beeza, I concede your point as your knowlege of engine timing etc exceeds mine. However, I have since that particular event used the same technique on several occasions with the same success.

I point out that the method I described was shown to me by my then Chief Pilot, and when the event I described occurred I was with another company and my CP was the company owner and also a LAME.

After arriving back at Port Moresby he asked me exactly how I started the engine and after I told him, his only reaction was along the lines of
'Fair enough, well done.' Knowing his background as a LAME I feel that if he considered it an unsafe technique he would have told me so at the time.

[27/09]

Pinky

In all probability having the right mag on as well as the left doesn't achieve anymore than just having the left mag on. What I mean is, having the right mag on in most circumstances is pretty harmless as it's very unlikely to produce a spark so the risk of a backfire and kick back is pretty low.

The reason for the lack of spark is the right mag isn't rotating fast enough to produce enough electricity when you prop swing. At the risk of telling you how to suck eggs, the impulse coupling goes two jobs, retard the spark for starting and momentarily spin (impulse) the mag fast enough to produce enough power for a decent spark. This I believe is why it hasn't been a problem for you with both mags on.

However I think there is always a risk, albeit very small, that the right mag could produce a spark so if I were hand swinging I would leave left the right mag off if at all possible, unless I knew it had an impulse coupling as well.

[kaz3g]

Hi FSO

Yes, while there is some journalistic licence in the story as told, it did have a factual basis.

One of the things not discussed in the current thread is the need to either tie the aircraft down at the tail or have a qualified person in the cockpit to hold it on the brakes.

Amazing how many have jumped chocks!

There has been a number get away over the years. Little things like the throttle linkage being adjusted during maintenance or differences between aircraft of the same type are amongst the culprits (along with careless pilots)

Kaz (Karen ... A proud Auster owner, albeit one with an 0-320 fitted)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And....an electric start I guess Kaz..??

Many moons ago, I was offerred the opportunity to do some glider towing in an Auster, for an organisation where my son was flying the gliders.
It was nearly 20 yrs since flying an Auster, so that night I was rehearsing all the left foot forward / heel brakes bit....

Imagine my suprise to see that this particular Auster had a Lycoming in the front...& Cessna hyd. brakes!!

It was a luvly two days doing the towing for the boys.....NO handswinging req'd., and the 'endorsement' for the towing as well.

Cheers:ok:

[baron_beeza]

Thanks for that 27/09. I think that sums it up.

I last swung an aircraft about 6 hours ago, - it was a Tomahawk and it would have started on about the third swing. Possibly even the second.

I think turning the right mag off is more of a habit thing. Today I had sufficient speed in the prop that the right may have indeed tried to fire,- if turned on.

I still have scars on the inside of my right knee where the kickback from an AJS 500 single lifted this 7 stone schoolboy into the oil tank filler cap.

Each pot on an O-235 must be about 800cc..

The motorbike had a mag also, no impulse but relied on body weight to swing the piston through the TDC position in a swift manner.

I am just much happier knowing the spark is occurring the other side of TDC when swinging a prop. ie any piston movement is in the same direction as my swing. I don't fancy the blade coming back up towards me.

[kaz3g]

Auster VH-BYM does have an electric start and, so far, I haven't had to prop her :-)

She still has the heel brake pedals linked to cables operating drums which can best be described as an aid to taxiing when not wet.

We get along at 100 knots and do the rudder dance every landing, too. She keeps me very honest!

kaz

[OZBUSDRIVER]

My son is getting pretty competent at it...except...watch those fingers!
Ryan from the front-
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p638/ozbusdriver/IMGP4777640x428.jpg
Tiger from the rear-
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p638/ozbusdriver/IMGP4781640x428.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p638/ozbusdriver/IMGP4782640x428.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p638/ozbusdriver/IMGP4783640x428.jpg

[Frank Arouet]

Yes well, that's a Monasco Ryan which normally used a crank. A great bloke who was party to introducing me to flying had me in his STM Ryan and I witnessed the same Bert Skinner get a clout on the hand at Camden when a restart was needed due to leaving same crank at Bankstown. I believe he died later, but I'm unsure whether it was related to the prop strike.

I know of one Ryan that had a Gypsy Major which needed the opposite swing ala Tiger Moth/ Auster. Did away with the crank which is one thing.

BTW, Austers had mag switches on port side instrument panel where the start required sliding window open for action if needed.

As for spam cans, the trailing edge of the airscrew was rather sharp and needed finger tips for the follow through.

[CHAIRMAN]

Hey Oz, I guess they are slo-mo shots - very interesting, never seen that stuff before.
Seemed like at the end of the stroke, the young bloke was almost pushing on the prop.
Definitely too many knuckles over the edge as you say, but as close to the prop tip as he can get, which is a good thing. After seeing the shots, bet he's moved the fingers back a bit!
My young bloke does the same kind of start on our tiger - grips the cabane strut - but he's built a bit like an orangutan like yours.
I swing from the rear also, but find better foot balance without reaching back for the strut... Will have to get some slomo shots of our techniques.
Some prop swingers tend to use way too much force than necessary, also leading to an unsure footing. Just getting the prop over the compression stroke is all that's necessary, speed doesn't count.
Mate of mine swings only from the front (no knuckles over the trailing edge of the prop, only fingertips). with another pilot aboard - left hand is behind his back, and action is a bit like bowing to the Queen - that slow. He's been doing it for over 50 years, and still got all his fingers........so it works.
Obviously there are several techniques that work and are safe, just find the right one for you,,,,and get some slomo shots to prove it.

Thanks for the pics, and love the polished cowls - on both aeroplanes:cool:

[jas24zzk]

First thought, why swing one from the front, and one from the rear.
Second thought...aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i c said the blind man.....:E

[Chimbu chuckles]

First thought, why swing one from the front, and one from the rear.

This might answer that question. Note the access to magneto switches and throttle. I tend to flick the prop through compression and get my hands out of the way. Just my habit. Like Chairman (who I suspect, but don't know, lets me fly his Tiger Moth:ok: ), I don't typically hang off the cabane strut - I feel more balanced and comfortable with my feet planted firmly...no longer being built like a young Orangutang :(

LnVJCsO8BtU

Many moons ago I had to prop start a (warm) C185 at very high density altitude in PNG - alone - it was a nightmare - but I was young and dumb. Finally got it to run and made it home before dark. I promised myself that day if it ever happened again I would get on the HF (it was a starter motor problem not flat battery) and call in knowledgeable help. With another pilot sitting behind the controls it would have been all done in 5 minutes - alone took closer to an hour and about 6 false starts:=

If you're flying in remote areas its a skill you probably should have - ask a Lame* how to effect a start (alone**) on the aircraft you're flying. Then only do it as an absolute last resort.

* If you're lucky he/the boss will forbid you to do it and instruct you to call for engineers.:ok:

** Murphy's Law says the day you need to hand swing a prop there won't be another pilot/LAME within 200nm:sad:

OzBUSDRIVER I assume your boy is handy with polish too:D

[jas24zzk]

Chimbu,

I actually didn't need to go deep into the reasons why it was being started from the front, the reason became clear after my first thought...and it was a fleeting one :8

I understand the bit about magneto access, and it not being a problem with someone in the cockpit like in the ryan pic.

Issue with a tail dragger, risk of taking out kneecaps.....so why would you do it?

Second thought, after i looked again.....take another look at the Ryan pic...

Fried nuts anyone.....

[Chimbu chuckles]

Kneecaps and fried nuts?

Ever been accused of being glass half empty?:ok:

[jas24zzk]

LOL, only the fridge is half empty.....ie always a full can close by.

As for the serious bit. I'm an advocate of standing behind the prop. Looking at the ryan pic, and those exhausts poking out, i'm pretty sure with the crap they make shirts out of these days, you won't get me standing there!!!

To coin a phrase around here "best practice vs safest option"

:ugh:

I'd love to hear ozbusdrivers reason why they start the ryan from the front

[OZBUSDRIVER]

jas24zzk, combination of exhaust pipes sticking out and the front of the undercarriage leaves little area for manuevering....and he doesn't like the flames.

Chuck, all of OAC's aeroplanes look like that:ok: lots of mopping of floors and elbow grease on shinny surfaces and ...you even get to learn how to fix all of them.....lucky little so and so:sad:


EDIT- The lad just got in from work...the reason for the stronger grip on the Ryan's prop was for giving it a good follow through for priming. The actual stroke for starting is a much shorter, easier pull through compression.

For me. had it demonstarted on a C150 by our CFI, John Young. Little 0-200 had him practically touching his knees on the compression stroke....not a good posture close to a prop about to fling into a blur.

[Checkboard]

It's interesting that in nearly 80 posts so far, no one has mentioned the legality of hand swinging.

If the aircraft is designed to be hand swung, the procedure is in the flight manual and you are flying a fully serviceable aircraft in accordance with that manual - happy days :)

If the aircraft is designed with electric start (like a four cylinder Piper or Cessna) and you find the starter motor U/S, or the battery flat and you decide to hand swing it.... you are now deliberately setting out to operate an unserviceable aircraft without entering the defect in the maintenance release, and not in accordance with the flight manual starting procedure. Something the insurance lads might point out to you if you present them with a medical bill ... :hmm::{

[CHAIRMAN]

Hi Checkboard - Tiger does not have a flight manual - placards in aircraft only - no mention of starting procedure there.
Ozbus, was that John Young you mentioned from Redcliffe? He was the CFI there in the early 70's

[Tee Emm]

Knowing his background as a LAME I feel that if he considered it an unsafe technique he would have told me so at the time.

Without appearing to sound disrespectful, I would caution anyone accepting the opinion of an LAME on flying operational matters. They may have excellent detailed knowledge of the guts of an engine - but in my experience their personal opinions on operation of aeroplanes from the pilot perspective, are just personal opinions - not facts. Rarely are their operational opinions backed up by published data. Mind you the same could be said about many chief pilots:ok:

[blackhand]

Without appearing to sound disrespectful, I would caution anyone accepting the opinion of an LAME on flying operational matters.
One would think that the aircraft has to be started before it becomes an operational matter.
And right you are, never take advice of an LAME. bl00dy know it alls.

[Pinky the pilot]

Without appearing to sound disrespectful, I would caution anyone accepting the opinion of an LAME on flying operational matters. They may have excellent detailed knowledge of the guts of an engine - but in my experience their personal opinions on operation of aeroplanes from the pilot perspective, are just personal opinions - not facts. Rarely are their operational opinions backed up by published data. Mind you the same could be said about many chief pilots

Tee Emm, The LAME of whom I referred to was the Chief Pilot. He also owned the company.

I say 'was' because he is no longer with us.:sad:

Chimbu Chuckles knows of whom I speak.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ummm...nope?

You mean Richard R?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Chairman...one and the same:ok:

[kaz3g]

Tiger does not have a flight manual - placards in aircraft only - no mention of starting procedure there.

Neither does the Auster!

kaz

[CHAIRMAN]

Old Youngie! 'Aviate, Navigate, Communicate' .......... and jab in the ribs 'old boy' if you didn't get it right. Sorry for the slight thread drift.

[Checkboard]

In accordance with placards, then. :)

kaz3g - I flew with Dick Gower 20 years ago at the Royal Vic Aero Club! He must be getting on a bit :)

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Why is it LAMEs are always so grumpy with pilots?:confused:

We break stuff, they fix it.
We keep them employed!:}

[jas24zzk]

kaz3g - I flew with Dick Gower 20 years ago at the Royal Vic Aero Club! He must be getting on a bit

Check,
RG no longer instructs with RVAC, tho he is still airborne and teaching. These days he's a Life Member of RVAC, recently retired from the committee. Instructing wise, he is now the CFI at Yarra Valley Flight Training (YVFT), based at Coldstream (YCEM) for both the GA and RAA schools.

Check it out if you like. YCEM - Coldstream Airfield - YCEM 50th Anniversary (http://www.ycem.com.au)


His numbers might be adding up, but you wouldn't guess it. He is still hand swinging his chipmunk, and teaching students the joys of taildraggers and flying upside down. To watch him, you'd cough when told what his real age is.
Yep Dicks doing well, still loves his flying and flying stories. :ok:

Cheers
Jas

[jas24zzk]

Why is it LAMEs are always so grumpy with pilots?

We break stuff, they fix it.
We keep them employed!

I broke out of school into a LAME apprenticeship just when the recession we had to have hit..needless to say that didn't last long. My lasting impression was on how grumpy the tradesmen were. I eventually had the oppurtunity (the only one going at the time....3 jobs advertised at the CES and 3000 applicants) to switch trades into the auto industry. Now 20 odd years on, i am a tradesman myself (leading hand in my current job) i am as grumpy as those grumpy LAME's......................


Short answer to the Q tho....not grumpy with the pilot....grumpy because now they have to justify dollar extraction from the owner.

[StallsandSpins]

Ha i was 15 when gramps taught me how to hand swing the leopard moth (always from the front with large chocks:ok:) it never been a big deal for me although i wouldn't be too keen on hand swinging anything bigger than a gipsy.

could someone enlighten me on how cartridge starters worked? i assume the cartridge forces a charge of hot gas through the engine that turns it over right?

[blackhand]

i assume the cartridge forces a charge of hot gas through the engine that turns it over right? The one I know about drives a starter motor with the cartridge discharge.
Looked like a big shotgun cartridge.
LAMEs are non discrimatory, grumpy at everyone:cool:
justify dollar extraction from the owner.
More just getting the dollar from the owner:*

[Frank Arouet]

But there was the inertia starter, quiet common with crank handles of course.

Speaking of which, how many new Hyundi's come with a crank handle for emergency starts when the battery is stuffed.

EDIT to add, my Volvo doesn't even have one, but my Ford Tractor has, which makes one wonder how to start an aviation diesel engine without lifters. (But that's beside the point).

Different times demand different systems. Old engines should follow time practice which is usually perfectly perfected by mistakes of past.

Prop starting a "newish" engine is probably dangerous... so call NRMA, RACV or someone unless you are having a "Coffee Royal" moment.

[kaz3g]

Checkboard said : kaz3g - I flew with Dick Gower 20 years ago at the Royal Vic Aero Club! He must be getting on a bit http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Still young, just into his mid-70's now and still instructing and testing pilots in both GA and RA.

We had a 50th anniversary celebration at YCEM today, and I took Mac Job for a run in the Auster. What an extraordinary gentleman he is... 86 years old and going strong.

Dick was there, of course, with wife Liz. Marcus from the MAF re-enacted the arrival of the first aircraft at YCEM by landing in C170 BUX. And Andrew Temby exercised his Yak 52TW over the top of the field.

There were a number of other retired flyers present and it was great to see them sitting together and reminiscing about times past with many of the younger ones.

A wonderful day.

kaz

[Checkboard]

I was an instructor for about three years at RVAC in the last years of Pat Gould, around 89-90 or so. Dick taught me my first aerobatics May-July 1989 :ok: and I went on to instruct Aeros & formation at RVAC. :)

Now, at 44, flying airlines in Europe. I had the most fun in my aviation career instructing at Moorabbin :)

[jas24zzk]

Yep Kaz,
great day had by all.....lots of handswinging with all them 'old' austers floating about.

[Pinky the pilot]

You mean Richard R?

Correct, Chuckles

[Chimbu chuckles]

Pinky Richard was not a LAME (nor a businessman for that matter). He was a friendly fella - a 'gentle soul' - but not very bright - only pilot to ever have a prop strike in an Islander...in flight!!!

He finished a bottle of coke, opened the storm window, and heaved it out.:rolleyes:

I know we're not supposed to speak ill of the dead - but look how he died.:ugh:

[metalman2]

The Construction of a Light Aircraft (1943) - YouTube
want to see crazy sh1t with propellors,,,,wait till they swing the compass towards the end,,,,pretty cool old film though!

[boofhead]

It might be worth making the point that a three-blade prop is not something that a novice hand-propper should tackle. The next blade will come down to take your hand off real fast.

If you can tie the airplane down prior to start, preferably with two ropes (slip knot and long enough to release from the cockpit) you can avoid a runaway airplane. Chocks are not enough.

I make my assistant (if I have one) remove the keys and hold them up so I can see them prior to pulling the engine through before start.

I have watched a start on a round engine where the pilot pulled the prop backward into the compression, almost all the way through, then released it. As the engine came back in the normal direction, it reached max compression, the plugs fired and the engine ran. Lovely to watch, no effort at all.

Has anyone ever hand swung a float plane? If so, how?

[Pinky the pilot]

Point taken Chuckles. However, I clearly remember him telling me at one time that he had previously been a LAME. :confused:

I wasn't going to question him on it at the time. Bit late now.

[werbil]

boofhead,

I have started a Beaver on floats following an issue with the starter switch. I stood on the cockpit steps on the starboard float and held onto the upper air inlet with my left hand - I was nicely balanced and secure, my arm naturally swung clear of the prop arc, and I could see the throttle. With a radial you get a good choice of compressions to start on - very handy considering the limited propeller arc within comfortable reach to work with.

One of the beauties of the 985 is that a gentle pull will start them once you get the mixture correct, and when they do start it is a very gradual acceleration to idle.

Floatplanes start moving forward as soon as the engine fires, however the "ground" does travels with you so you can climb back on board easily.

W

[gassed budgie]

Havn't read all of the earlier posts, so someone else may have posted this. I was ploughing through the CAR's earlier today and came across these....

225 Pilots at controls
(1)The pilot in command must ensure that 1 pilot is at the controls of an aircraft from the time at which the engine or engines is or are started prior to a flight until the engine or engines is or are stopped at the termination of a flight.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(2)When, in accordance with these regulations, 2 or more pilots are required to be on board an aircraft, the pilot in command must ensure that 2 pilots remain at the controls at all times when the aircraft is taking off, landing and during turbulent conditions in flight.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(3) An offence against subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code

230 Starting and running of engines
(1)A person must not:
(a) start the engine of an Australian aircraft; or
(b) permit the engine of an Australian aircraft to be run;
if it is not permitted by this regulation.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(1A) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
(2)The engine may be started or run while the aircraft is inside or outside Australian territory if the control seat is occupied by an approved person or by a person who may, under Part 5, fly the aircraft.
(3)If the aircraft is an aeroplane that is having maintenance carried out on it, or that is being used for the provision of maintenance training, the engine may be started or run if the control seat is occupied:
(a) whether the aircraft is inside or outside Australian territory — by a person who:
(i) holds:
(A) an aircraft engineer licence that permits him or her to perform maintenance certification for maintenance carried out on the engine; or
(B) an airworthiness authority covering the maintenance; and
(ii) has sufficient knowledge of the aircraft’s controls and systems to ensure the starting or running does not endanger any person or damage the aircraft; or
(b) if the aircraft is outside Australian territory — by a person who:
(i) if the aircraft is in a Contracting State — may under the law of the Contracting State start or run engines of the same type in connection with the carrying out of maintenance, or the provision of maintenance training, as the case requires; or
(ii) has qualifications that are recognised by CASA as adequate for the purpose of starting or running engines of aircraft of the same type in connection with the carrying out of maintenance, or the provision of maintenance training, as the case requires

231 Manipulation of propeller
(1)In spite of regulations 225 and 230 and subregulation (2), the pilot in command of an aircraft which requires an operating crew of only one pilot may manipulate the propeller of the aircraft for the purposes of starting the aircraft if:
(a) assistance is not readily available for that purpose;
(b) adequate provision is made to prevent the aircraft moving forward; and
(c) no person is on board the aircraft.
(2)The registration holder, or operator, or the pilot in command, of an Australian aircraft must not permit a person to manipulate the propeller of the aircraft to start the engine if the registration holder, operator or pilot in command is not satisfied that the person who is to manipulate the propeller knows the correct starting procedures for the aircraft.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(3) An offence against subregulation (2) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

....so there you have it.

[Old but not bold]

What a great thread, Dickie Gower also organised the 30th anviverary of YCEM and requested my Cessna 170A for the re-inactment. I had the original pilot on board, I think his name was Basil? what a great guy and a great day that was. Dick was and still is a legend.
PS I have a prop swinging endorsement in my log book from 60's, I am sure others will have as well.
Oldie. :ok:

[Flying Binghi]

via Lodown; ...old timers from PNG make mention about hand swinging DC-3's with a rope and a line of locals


Heh, i've heard some stories of DC3 'Landcruiser' starter motors here in Oz.



----------------------------

And adding to the list of youtube links...

The FAA just happen to be there with a camera when the 170 just gone wild...

FAA Hand-Propping Accident Video - YouTube





.

[Frank Arouet]

I have a prop swinging endorsement in my log book from 60'

Well I don't despite owning an Auster for years without any electricity.

I guess a "prop swinging endorsement" is like a "nose wheel endorsement" as opposed to a "conventional undercarriage".

Bloody hell! No wonder I'm going sailing for a few years to get away from this ****e. I may even become a Kiwi if they'll have me.

[Checkboard]

Terrible camera work from that FAA cameraman! Three main events - the start, the pilot falling off the strut and the final crash - and the guy managed to miss ALL of them! :rolleyes:

[jas24zzk]

Sensational skill demo by the camera guy...almost better than the pilots stuntwork

[Frank Arouet]

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr13/scud_2008/aviation/Pipercubmechanic.jpg

[blackhand]

A Big Balls Air Start

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Frank...
Re...'Bloody hell! No wonder I'm going sailing for a few years to get away from this ****e. I may even become a Kiwi if they'll have me.'

And 'Pop into' Wanaka whilst you're there...Easter Weekend. You'll LUV IT!!

:p:ok:

[boofhead]

One more thing on hand propping: I would recommend that you turn off the fuel after priming and before you start the engine. There is enough fuel in the line to run the engine for 3 minutes and that gives you time to get around to the cockpit, settle the rpm and turn the fuel on again. If the airplane was to get away from you after you start it, it will not go far, especially if the throttle was to be too advanced, in which case the fuel would be burned up after a few seconds. This also would protect the occupant, if you had been using one to help with the controls. In the excitement it would be easy for a scared passenger to bump the throttle open.

[RadioSaigon]

There is enough fuel in the line to run the engine for 3 minutes...

Not in my experience. Most aircraft I have flown will shut down in a matter of seconds if the fuel selector is turned off, even at a low idle. Sort of defeats the purpose IMO.

[Flying Binghi]

...will shut down in a matter of seconds if the fuel selector is turned off...

Probably something that can be checked for your own type before its needed. Next shutdown turn off the fuel tap and see how long it takes.




.

[RadioSaigon]

Next shutdown turn off the fuel tap and see how long it takes...

Concur. Should be a regular part of a professional pilots routine -where appropriate. I always started my engines on their own tanks, then select x-feed until it was time to do the run-ups, then back to their own tanks. At least once a week, shut the engines down by selecting fuel OFF. Restart and then normal shut-down. It's comforting to know that should you ever need it, everything is likely to work as intended. Doesn't hurt to keep the mechanism free and seals etc., lubricated also.

[Captain Dart]

Sounds a good idea Saigon but what is the purpose of the the restart and 'normal shutdown' (I think I've missed something)?

[RadioSaigon]

Nah, you haven't missed anything more than me being a bit anal ;-)

Just the way it is.