2 Pilot Aircraft - Leaving the Flight Deck.

[nomorecatering]

Kicking the football around today over a coffee, one of the guys asked a question, but we cant find a definite anwer in the regs.

You have a 2 pilot aircraft. In cruise, one pilot decides he needs to visit the bathroom. Thats fine, the other pilot goes on 02 and the other goes to spend a penny. The question is, how long is acceptable to be absent from the flight deck.

The regs say that one pilot must be at the controls with his seat in such a position as to have full control over the flight controls, including the rudders. But nothing on what is acceptable about the other being out of the flight deck.

Say on a long overwater flight, can one have "lunch hr' down the back.....hypothetical question.

So whats the generally accepted practice.

[rmcdonal]

Just as an aside question, what's the requirement for the other pilot to be on o2?

[Sarcs]

I believe a quick donning mask will suffice as long as your not operating above FL450!

8.5 Paragraph 8.4 does not apply if an aircraft is equipped with a quick-donning type oxygen mask for the pilot or, if more than 1 pilot is required for the flight, each pilot. However, whenever the aircraft is operating above flight level 450, the pilot, or one of the pilots, seated at the controls of the aircraft must wear an oxygen mask that is properly fitted and supplying oxygen.

[chimbu warrior]

US FAR's provide more clarity than Australian CAR's on this. They effectively state that the duration of any absence from the flight deck should be limited to the time needed to accomplish physiological needs (or some similar wording).

In other words, it's okay to slip out for a slash or a dump, but not to take in dinner and a movie as well. :)

[Wally Mk2]

I'm with 'chimbu'on this one but either way I think some common sense should prevail here in the lack of any actual Co SOP's/Regs.
If you where a Capt in 'pornstar' for Eg & you had a 250hr low hr'd cadet F/O at the steering wheel whilst you where in the little boys room just how long do you really think you would sit there? 2 splashes & yr back like a flash I'd say!:)


Wmk2

[aussie027]

Chimbu is correct.
Wally, UR too.Exactly, Damn straight,LMAO:D:D:E:E

[porch monkey]

Some airlines, mainly US ones if I recall, require a flighty to remain in the cockpit for the duration of the "physiological needs".:ok:

[nitpicker330]

That's another issue, new locked doors and all!!

[Wally Mk2]

Gee 'Monks' I like the way you think:E Although come to think of it not too sure I'd wanna be left in the cockpit with some flighty's:E



Wmk2

[haughtney1]

funnily enough this very topic lead to a "heated" debate at my last crm refresher.
Basically, trolly troll number 1 (we do joint crm classes) wanted to know how long pilot bloggs could leave the office for....before, get this...she could report them to management..:ugh::hmm: discuss

[Kenny]

Porch,

In the US, RPT or 121 carriers as they're known, can never have 1 pilot left alone in the cockpit. So if one of the drivers needs a physiological break, an FA has to come in. The only time you don't have to do this is when you have another pilot in the jumpseat.

[Capt Fathom]

can never have 1 pilot left alone in the cockpitOf course! The land of the free! So many contradictions. :ugh:

[BraceBrace]

I don't mind cpt's stretching legs and other sorts for a while in the back, but there's one thing that I really really really don't get. And it happens every time. Why do captains have an urge to turn up the speaker volume before leaving?

You really think I'm going to be sitting in (no kidding) earblowing Indi - kgggggrrrsshhhh - disco mode for the next 10 minutes so you can hear stuff from the back? And I wonder if I'm supposed to do the same thing for the same reasons... but do I really want his mike to feedback like crazy on his first report...? No. So I leave it, volumes are good to work in.

(sorry, had to get this of my chest, for the rest no complaints at all, great chaps in our box! I'm dead serious, good guys all over)

[aussie027]

Kenny said-
In the US, RPT or 121 carriers as they're known, can never have 1 pilot left alone in the cockpit. So if one of the drivers needs a physiological break, an FA has to come in. The only time you don't have to do this is when you have another pilot in the jumpseat.

Ok, Im going to ask for the FAR 121 para reference that says that. Never ever heard of that one and I studied 121 back in the mid nineties and flew FAR 135 up until a few yrs ago.

[Kenny]

Look in CFR 49 chapter XII. under flight deck privileges.

§*1544.237***Flight deck privileges.

(a) For each aircraft that has a door to the flight deck, each aircraft operator must restrict access to the flight deck as provided in its security program.

Every 121 carriers security program has to follow TSA mandates and guidelines. You won't find any specifics on what is included because as a 121 pilot you're not allowed to talk publicly about it. Trust me though, it's SOP to never allow a single pilot in a cockpit while an aircraft is in the air.


Aussie, everything changed after 9/11 as far as 121 security is concerned. I've just returned to Oz after 10 years of flying 121 in the US.

[aussie027]

kenny, fair enough, I understand thanks for the info.:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

You really think I'm going to be sitting in (no kidding) earblowing Indi - kgggggrrrsshhhh - disco mode for the next 10 minutes so you can hear stuff from the back? And I wonder if I'm supposed to do the same thing for the same reasons... but do I really want his mike to feedback like crazy on his first report...? No. So I leave it, volumes are good to work in.

Not as silly as it sounds. If I'm the only pilot at the controls whilst Bloggs goes out for a pool-drop or whatever, I take my headset off, speaker on. Quicker to get my O2 mask on that way. Or perhaps Capt Bloggs is just helping you, after a depressurisation, to hear ATC if you forget to wind up the speaker.

[BraceBrace]

Agree, except for the fact that in cruise, we are usually already using the speaker at a perfect work volume and the headset is on the sidewall.

I can understand they increase the speaker volume so they can follow ATC calls "somewhat" from the galley (we're freight) and fear I might fall asleep or even dead. But in 99% of the cases that doesn't happen and I end up blowing my ears either because ATC calls or because my mike goes into feedback when I need to report.

I sometimes do the same thing with box 2 on 121.5 (especially when both of us start to feel tired and I go to stretch my legs). But box 1?

[Wally Mk2]

We do the reverse 'bloggsy' heads sets on, seat upright & full harness on whilst the other CM is out of the pit of cocks. That way it lessons the chance of missing a radio call whilst say yr in a reclined position & therefor more relaxed.
I think common sense is needed in most of these scenario's. Turning the speaker volume up achieves nothing I believe in fact could be distracting.:)


Wmk2

[Capn Bloggs]

We do the reverse 'bloggsy' heads sets on
Sorry Wally, your machine obviously isn't as quiet as mine! :}

[A Squared]

US FAR's provide more clarity than Australian CAR's on this. They effectively state that the duration of any absence from the flight deck should be limited to the time needed to accomplish physiological needs

Not really.

121.543

(b) A required flight crewmember may leave the assigned duty station—

(1) not relevant

(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological needs; or

(3) not relevant


I suppose that one could say that there is an implication of a time limit but it certainly doesn't say that explicitly.

[tinpis]

Pee yer pants rather than piss off a grumpy old BNE 737 checker apparently.

[Capt Fathom]

When you gotta go, you gotta go....

[halas]

Investigators have detailed an extraordinary event in which an Air India Express Boeing 737-800 was put into a steep dive moments after the captain was locked out of the cockpit.

While the twin-jet was cruising at flight level 370, en route to Pune from Dubai, the captain left the cockpit for the washroom. Almost as soon as he was gone, the aircraft started to pitch nose-down, after forward pressure on the co-pilot's control column.

India's DGAC attributes this to the co-pilot's adjusting his seat forward and inadvertently knocking the control column.

Flight-data recorder information shows that, after momentary relaxation, the forward pressure on the column increased and the jet pitched to 5° nose-down, before the pitch command briefly transitioned to nose-up.

But another "sharp" nose-down command followed, says the inquiry report, and the forward control column force gradually increased.

The 737 passed through 13° nose-down and an 'overspeed' warning showed the jet's airspeed had risen to Mach 0.82. As the airspeed increased the autothrottle reduced thrust in an attempt to keep the aircraft under control.

Outside the cockpit the captain had felt the change in pitch and attempted to re-enter the flight deck. There was no response from the co-pilot to a request from cabin crew to open the secure cockpit door, and the captain had to resort to an emergency code to gain access. He was away for about 40s in total.

Upon entering the cockpit he saw the aircraft was pitched about 26° nose-down. He responded by pulling on his control column - although the flight-data information shows that, while he was pulling with 130lb (580N) nose-up force, the co-pilot's column was experiencing an opposite pressure of 200lb nose-down.

Shortly afterwards the two columns "rejoined" and the aircraft - which reached a maximum speed of Mach 0.888 - began to pitch nose-up, having lost 6,800ft in altitude during the event. Control regained, the flight continued without further incident.

An admission of being "panic stricken" is given as the co-pilot's explanation for his failure to open the cockpit door. The inquiry report states that he attempted to contact the captain four or five times using an attendant call button.

As the aircraft departed from its planned altitude, as a result of the pressure on the control column, the increase in speed and the warning sounds from the aircraft caused a "panic situation".

The co-pilot "couldn't control the aircraft [or] open the cockpit door and answer the cabin call", the report says: "During the pitch-down attitude he tried to leave the control column to open the cockpit door but the aircraft pitch increased further and altitude [was being lost] rapidly."

It adds that the 25-year-old co-pilot - who had 968h on type - claimed to have forgotten the procedure to return to the assigned flight level.

While none of the 113 passengers was injured during the 26 May event, there had been a commotion in the cabin as a result of the upset, with items spilling into the aisle.


halas

[tinpis]

Bloody 737's

[Cirronimbus]

"It adds that the 25-year-old co-pilot - who had 968h on type - claimed to have forgotten the procedure to return to the assigned flight level."

What sort of excuse is that? Forgotten how to "return to the assigned flight level"?

Makes crashing ok if you forget how to get back up in the air?

Back to single engine piston GA flying until you remember how to climb.........bloody cadet......

[Tankengine]

I always know where the crash axe is for those kind of co-pilots.:E

[VH-XXX]

I know some foreign pilots that would do something like that without even realising. If there were no other foreign pilots next to them for moral support, they would have no idea what to do.

If you watch that show where the american truck drivers drive through the mountains of India when there's an accident and 200 people suddenly appear (for moral support), you'll know what I mean.

[tinpis]

And wearing new shoes tut..tut..:=