Strange Practices

[RTN11]

During a recent club checkout, the pilot I was flying with did a couple of strange things which he assured me was the way he was taught.

Firstly, when I asked him to perform a steep turn he started a turn at 30 degrees angle of bank. I joking said "that's not really a steep turn is it?" to which he replied "this is the clearing turn!". Who is teaching that you need to do a clearing turn before a steep turn? I was always taught and teach that it could be used for collision avoidance, since it gives maximum turn rate, and minimum radius. A clearing turn rather defeats the point.

Secondly, on all the stall recoveries he selected carb heat to hot before setting up the aircraft into the stall, only selecting it cold after a full power recovery had been made. The temp and dew point were well out of the carb ice risk range, we were high up with low temp and well clear of cloud and no ice had been observed for the entire flight (in a PA28 where carb icing is pretty rare anyway). On this basis, I would leave the carb heat alone since you are only reducing the power for a few seconds, and you really want full power immediately for stall recovery. I spoke to a couple of examiners about this, and both said they would be happy with the candidate selecting hot or cold carb air before a stall as long as they could justify it. This student seems to have been taught to blindly put it hot on every stall with no apparent explanation. Is this standard practice at other schools?

[Hansard]

These are both very common practice.

[Deano777]

What would you call a steep turn? 45°? 60°? I assume you do a full HASELL check before a 60° turn? If so the lookout for this is within the HASELL.
As for the 45° steep turn, I always have a good look first but I don't normally do a 30° clearing turn, or teach it. If this is what this chap wants to do then what is wrong with it? You say a steep turn is for collision avoidance, that's great, but when you practice it what are you avoiding exactly?
As for the carb heat, if my RPM goes below 2,000rpm then it goes on, period. What temperatures/dewpoints are you saying are outside the carb icing regime? I took a lesson this week and had a small amount of carb icing in CAVOK conditions and the temperature/dewpoint on the ground as +8/+2.

End of the day everyone has their quirks, and what this chap was doing doesn't sound inherently wrong but more like erring on the side of caution. I see no issue with that at all.

[mad_jock]

Jesus !!!

The ****e that is out there.

A clearing turn to do a turn. For the love of gawd!!!!

45-60 is acceptable. 30 is not.

Steep turn is for avoidance end of story, pishy slow turn in, its not a exercise in control harmony. Its a wang it in, move the aircraft out of the way of what ever and then tidy up. Hassel check before a steep turn!!!! look out!!!!!!! Arse to arse then go for it training. If you need to avoid, wang it in.

The hot/cold carb thing is a valid multiple ways of skinning a cat. Personally I wouldn't have a problem either way, even for that matter going full power then selecting cold as long as they have reduced the AoA. Its the fact they have reduced the AoA that has broken the stall, power is a bonus as any glider pilot will tell you.

[Deano777]

Agree with jock, but then if the chap wants to do it then it isn't the end of the world as I said. If he's being over cautious then that's down to him, it's his life. As for what I do, well it's all in the "work cycle" during the steep turn; Lookout - Attitude - Instruments. I was always taught to do a hasell, or at the very least a hell check before a 60° steep turn incase of an impending stall.
If this chap wants to do a clearing turn before he enters a steep turn then that's down to how he sees it, I'd rather he did it this way around rather than keep his head in the cockpit the whole time. It just isn't worth losing any sleep over.

[172_driver]

In the US they are big on position reports & clearing turns before any maneuver… I agree it's really daft but have seen students fail checkrides due to lack of proper clearing procedures, so I had to teach them. Most annoyingly when they were so focused looking outside for traffic they forgot about their own plane and lost or gained 100-200 ft. Could take them quite some time and distance travelled to re-establish the aircraft for the originally intended maneuver… now validating the use of a new position report & clearing turn ;)

Carb heat before low power maneuvers… unless you've got a carb temp gauge how do you REALLY know you don't need it? At the same time, I know that in 30 deg C Santa-Ana winds over SoCal there can't possible be any moisture to create ice. I remember that our SOP at my FTO said Carb Heat - ON, but that I told my students many times to leave it OFF for the exercise due to the environmental conditions. It's a tough one, new students easily develop habits that stick with them. So if they were taught how to fly in northern Europe and then moved to southern California I can see how they retain old habits. As long as they understand the concept of carb ice and can reasonably motivate either ON or OFF, I am happy.

So to summaries… none of the practices are strange from my viewpoint. I can understand the rationale for both. Having had the benefit of flying both in Europe and US I've learnt that things can be done in vastly different ways leading to the same outcome - safe flying.

[RTN11]

Fair enough. In 10 years of flying, multiple instructors and 3 years instructing at 5 different schools I've never had anyone say to do a HASELL check before a steep turn. A very good look out and then straight to 60 degrees angle of bank is all I've ever done, so it just seemed a bit strange to me that this guy was running pre-stall checks before a steep turn.

Likewise with carb heat, I can't remember one instructor I've had saying put it hot before a stall, and I've known examiners be dead against it, saying full power is required straight of the bat when you go for it.

[Duchess_Driver]

I teach to HASELL before advanced turning on the off chance that the student manages to enter a spiral from the turn.

Its the way I was taught, the way I was taught to teach and therefore the way I teach to teach. It's in our SOP's therefore...

Carb heat on when stalling? .... how quick can carb ice form?

[mad_jock]

In the right conditions seconds.

[fwjc]

Duchess Driver - I think you make a valid point about the spiral dive; although I was never taught to do a clearing turn before a steep turn, I can see why it would be relevant as "belt and braces"

mad_jock - abolutely agree with you there on carb ice and how quickly it can become a problem. Had it yesterday taxiing out, fortunately cleared with carb heat prior to engine run-up. With the Continental A65 it's an automatic thing to apply carb heat before closing the throttle for a descent or planned stall.

[cavortingcheetah]

Down here in South Africa we teach the HASELL checks before a stall. The lookout turn is usually a 45' steep turn. There is no clearing turn prior to the lookout turn. (Turns on turns into stalls and vertigo spring to mind.)
As the steep turn comes to its end, roll out, away from the sun, power off, carb heat hot. At the recovery carb heat in and full power, usually together. You can't really have a full power recovery with the carb heat selected on.

[mrmum]

First - I never taught or been taught to do a HASELL before ex15, although I've come across it in similar circumstanes, such a check-outs and tests. I wouldn't necessarily try and reinvent the wheel with these pilots, there's nothing unsafe about doing it, so if they want to, that's fine. However, while I'm aware of the reasoning usually given for doing it, I don't agree it's needed. Doing a turn to check it's clear to do a turn (however steep it is) seems unnecessary to me, at what AoB is it safe to just turn, without a clearing turn first? :confused:
Even if the student inadvertently enters a spiral descent, you still have control of the aircraft, so can take avoiding action if needed. Unlike when stalled or spinning, where there is a short time where you don't have perhaps full control until you take the appropriate recovery actions.

Second - common to select carb. heat on for reduced power settings, can of course depend on type and conditions on the day. Rarely in the UK to we get conditions not conducive to carb. icing though. I'd be happy to see either way, with justification, but would tend to err towards using it more than less, myself.

[foxmoth]

I agree that no clearing turn or HASELL check (though I actually teach HASTELL now - including transponder to 7004 for aeros) is needed before steep turns, disagree that Steep turn is for avoidance end of story,, steep turns as such are really a coordination exercise, maintaining height, specified bank angle and rolling out on a specific heading, avoidance is the "Emergency break" and here you are not worried about coordinating the roll in/out, specific bank angle (though it should be 45+) and if you lose or gain a little on height, for this you need to get the bank on fast and turn for just a short time, roll out does not need to be on a specific heading.
Carb heat I would go with the consensus that it can be done either way, though many aircraft the CH control can be put back to cold AS you advance the throttle, a good habit to get into if you have this set up as it means you are used to doing it and it does not get left hot in Go Arounds and T&Gs.

[mad_jock]

I have always believed it was to cover the event of ATC issuing

"Gxxxx avoiding action turn right immediately heading yyy degs"

If its pilot initated as you say heading doesn't matter.

If its a coordination exercise its a particularly poor one. We would be better doing chandles or reversing turn figure of eights.

[RTN11]

If its a coordination exercise its a particularly poor one. We would be better doing chandles or reversing turn figure of eights.

This is a very good point. I always teach steep turns as giving the max rate/min radius of turn, and handling the aircraft close to its angle of bank limit (for most training aircraft). The practical use of this is collision avoidance.

It isn't much of an exercise in co-ordination. You can fly a pretty uncoordinated steep turn and still keep level and roll out on heading. It doesn't really teach coordination either, many students will roll in first, then balance, then pull back. This achieves a steep turn eventually with no coordination at all.

Chandles or lazy eights are a much better way to teach and assess coordination.

[172_driver]

So really what are steep turns for then? :)

One of the most widely practiced maneuvers in anything from C152 to B737.. yet it's usefulness has been challenged by more than one person… I'd say it's a good exercised for quick instrument scan and hand-eye coordination, if done by reference to instruments. I'd also say it's a good way to develop the feel for an aircraft if done with outside references.

Personally I don't really buy the "escape maneuver" thing… If I wan't to avoid an object coming straight at me I'll throw in a decent amount of bank and an estimated proportional amount of rudder.. not really bothering about the position of the ball.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Steep turns may or may not be useful for sudden avoiding action (I've done that once or twice), or they may be useful to practice co-ordination, or they may well simply be fun.

But surely they are a permitted manoeuvre, which don't take the aeroplane anywhere near the corners of the V-N diagram, so surely a pilot should be able to fly there safely, and come back again? That seems to me to be enough justification for a pilot to be able to fly them safely and consistently? .


Offering an opinion about HASELL checks before steep turns - why are these necessary? Steep turns should not involve sudden reductions in power, large changes in height, large changes of position, lateral accelerations, negative g - or anything else I can think of that justifies a check that is designed to be done immediately before aerobatics. On the other hand a properly flown steep turn does include a continuous lookout around the aeroplane during entry, the manoeuver itself, and the recovery - the lookout being the only bit of the HASELL check that's really relevant to a steep turn.

G

[mad_jock]

I personally think and have been trained in all classes and types they are for avoidance and I have also used them as such.

And it is also what I teach as well.

There is a large amount of people out there that think they are an exercise for just the test and there is a huge variation of methods of doing them. From my method of wanging it in to another which is a slow smooth rotation in and out.

[foxmoth]

Be interested to hear an Examiners view of a) what they think steep turns are for, and b) what they are looking for when a student is doing one.

[mrmum]

If we look at CAA standards document 10, guidance for instructors, FIC providers and FIE's (I'd copy and paste it, but for some reason I can't:confused:)
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Stds%20Doc%2010%20v5%2009%20+%20Supplement%20v1.pdf
On page 23 we see exercise 10B stalling, which includes specifically ex.10B.1.1 Pre-stalling checks, i.e. HASELL or similar.
This is followed by exercise 11A & B spinning, recoveries from incipient and developed, containing ex.11A.1 and ex.11B.1, Pre-spinning checks, again probably referring to HASELL or an equivalent.
Whereas, on page 25 exercise 15 advanced turning, only has ex.15.1.1, orientation and lookout, no mention of any pre-turning checks.

If we then take a look at standards document 3, guidance for applicants for the CPL skill test;
Section 2 - Airwork
b.....Slow Flight....... • Consider all safety checks before the manoeuvres where necessary.....
Stalling • Consider safety checks before stalling....
c. Turns.....• Demonstrate the correct lookout technique before, during and after turns....
we again see reference to pre-stall checks, but only lookout before steep turns.

Standards document 19, guidance for applicants for the PPL skill test, which again won't copy; :*
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Standards%20Documents_srg_fcl_19_A%20v6_.pdf
says pretty much the same thing again.

Finally, looking at the JAA-PPL syllabus;
http://www.vluchtvoorbereiding.nl/documenten/jarsyllabus.pdf
we have safety checks at the beginning of exercise 10A & B and exercise 11, but no mention of them in exercise 15. So I wonder where the first idea to start doing them before steep turns came from then?


Interestingly, stds doc 10, shows normal steep turns as a separate exercise to the max rate turn, which is specifically for collision avoidance. This is how I've always taught the lesson, 60 (or 45) deg AoB level turns and the other variations as an interesting and enjoyable exercise, but the max rate or emergency break, whatever you want to call it, for late avoiding action

[mrmum]

Foxmoth,
a) what I personally think steep turns are for isn't really very relevant, I didn't have any input in writing the syllabus, thus don't know the thinking behind their inclusion. However, FWIW a 60 deg AoB turn is just a bit of fun, with no great practical application, as has been said, chandelles or lazy-eights might be better. The max rate does have use as a collision avoidance manoeuvre. Steep gliding turns can be used to help lose excessive height in a PFL type scenario, however, not without drawbacks and not my preferred method of doing that.
b) I want them to do exactly what's in std doc 19 ideally. Demonstrate the correct lookout technique, before, during and after. Maintain nominated altitude and speed. Co-ordinate the entry to achieve and maintain at least 45 deg AoB, through at least 360 deg, recover back to S&L. Having said that, I do really like 60s rather than 45s. Also, I want to see them looking out of the window, flying the attitude and checking the airspace we're about to occupy, NOT flying the perfect numbers, but on the b***dy instruments all the time, I'd much rather they selected an attitude on the horizon and lost/gained 150'.

[foxmoth]

Did not have time to look up the references last night, but from this it seems pretty obvious that steep turns as such are regarded by the authorities as a precision manouvre, not for avoidance, as the requirement is for a 360 maintaining height and speed and coordinating the roll out.
Pretty much as I thought and I would go with your comments on the practicality of it all. As far as 60 degrees of bank goes, I teach this, but for exams normally tell the student to stick to 45 as this is all that is required and they are less likely to mess it up and end up with a fail.

[S-Works]

Be interested to hear an Examiners view of a) what they think steep turns are for, and b) what they are looking for when a student is doing one.

It is an excercise in coordination. We are looking for the candidate to demonstrate a coordinated turn maintaining height and angle of bank and the ability to roll out smoothly onto the commanded heading.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

The PA28 POH is very specific about the use of carb heat. ref para 4.29

I'd prefer the stude/instructor had read that and used it as justification rather than use a "one size fits all" technique.

Similar issue with people turning off the electric fuel pump at 300 feet :uhoh: ref para 4.25

As an examiner "My Instructor told me..." and other OWTs doesn't override the POH and if theiir use of carby heat/fuel pump was contrary to the POH then I wouldn't tick the "sound knowledge of aircraft systems" box.

As for steep turns, I like to see the student show smooth co-ordination of all controls as well as being within the parameters laid out in the syllabus.

Edited to add references

[Big Pistons Forever]

I echo CFI's comment re following the POH. Too many flying schools mindlessly follow some "one size fits all" technique, often based on some flying training urban myths that are passed down to each new generation of flying instructors and blindly followed with no critical thought.

There are type specific differences and legitimate differences of opinion on carb heat use but every pilot should understand how carb ice forms and the likely effect on the engine when carb heat is applied under various conditions.

Instructors mindlessly telling students to put on the carb heat every time "because that is the way we do it here" is the root of the problem.