Trident wreckage question

[0ldwolf]

Chinese Marshal Linbiao defected China to Russia in an aircraft, Trident 1E, nore than 40 years ago. Today, some aspects of his defection are still under mystery. Lin's plane, which was a Hawker Siddeley Trident 1E, crashed in Mongolia in 13, Sept. 1971. Recently, a Chinese guy took some photos of the remainings of the plane wreckages still in Mongolia, shown by some Mongolians to atract Chinese. But someone said the wreckge was not from the Trident. I post the photos here to see if any friends here can identify if this wreckage were from Trident and which part of this piece coming from. This might help solve the 40 year puzzle.

I have a preliminary guess of the wreckage. It looks like a kind of door with a window. What makes it uncommon is the three "nozzles" on one side of the "door" and the taper shape of the “window”. I tried to locate it on the surface of Trident 1E, but failed. I appreciate any effort to help.


The wreckage:
http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=190
http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=190

http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=191

http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=191

The three nozzles:

http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=194 (http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=194)
http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=194

[Dan Winterland]

I've just tried to access the links to your pictures from inside the PRC and can't. Seems the great firewall of China is at work. Perhaps there is something to your story!

[0ldwolf]

Hi, Dan,

Thanks for attention to my question.
If u are in China, u may try this address:
[]??? (http://bbs.feeyo.com/posts/529/topic-0011-5292643.html)
all of my pictures (and more) are there. No dbout， I have posted my questions there in Chinese.

Oldwolf

[FlightlessParrot]

I just tried to access the photos from New Zealand, and got "You are not authorised to download this attachment."

[spekesoftly]

If u are in China, u may try this address: []??? (http://bbs.feeyo.com/posts/529/topic-0011-5292643.html)That link also works for me in the UK, but not the original three.

[0ldwolf]

I just tried to access the photos from New Zealand, and got "You are not authorised to download this attachment."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI,Flightless,

Sorry that you cannot access. But those original adresses are British one.
maybe the following Chinese one will work:

the wreckage:
http://cdn.feeyo.com/bbs/20120201/201202011041343002.jpg

http://cdn.feeyo.com/bbs/20120201/201202011125245437.jpg

the three "nozzles":
http://cdn.feeyo.com/bbs/20120224/201202241027308691.jpg

regards

[aviatorhi]

Tail number in that set indicated it has been used as a ground trainer (MX I assume) since 1991.

http://rzjets.net/aircraft/?reg=145697

Unless the photos aren't related (seems to be some random shots in the set).

[777fly]

I flew the Trident 1C for some years from 1968. It had the identical fuselage, and therefore door arrangement, as the 1E. The damaged door section in the photograph does not resemble any of the Trident doors or hatches. It is too small to be a cargo door and too big to be the avionics access hatch. In any case, no hatch or cargo door had an access window, and none of the passenger doors had a window of that elongated shape. I would say that it does not come from a Trident.

[ion_berkley]

Hmmmm...well there's the window shape..but the rest?

Restored fillaments panel and tear drop window frame refitted. | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_lomax/5041610626/in/set-72157623942908440)

[Ocean Person]

Oldwolf;

This is a very interesting subject. The China Aviation Museum in surburban Beijing is possibly the best place to ask about those photographs. They have a couple of Tridents and they are experts at assembling and dismantling just about anything.

I'm sure you know that Chairman Mao Tze-tung gave instructions that the aircraft and its occupants were to be left were it crashed. Are there any indications that his orders were carried out exactly or is there still something to be seen of the aircraft and its people? As a student of Chinese aviation history and Chinese political history I would be very gratefull if you could throw some light on this as yet unanswered question. The address of the museum is; China Aviation Museum, Xiantangshan, Changping, Beijing 102211. Its about 45 minutes by taxi from central Beijing, dont confuse it with the Military Museum which is in central Beijing. Good hunting, Regards.

O.P.

[0ldwolf]

Hi, 777fly,

so glad to meet one flow trident. you are correct about the wreckage.
however my friend insisted that the wreckage was from some part of trident. it's him to go Mongolia and take the picture.
would there be any possibility that wreckage from central fule tank coverage? the pipes on it make me think of this.

[0ldwolf]

Hi, aviatorhi (http://www.pprune.org/members/233079-aviatorhi) ,
Maybe you entered that Chinese address. Sorry it confused you.
The Chinese caption there has stated that they are not the same plane.

[0ldwolf]

Hi, ion_berkley (http://www.pprune.org/members/226185-ion_berkley) ,

Thanks for the picture. I also noticed the shape of that window.
But the size of that window is larger and the shape of the "door" dose not fit that window part.

[0ldwolf]

Hi, O.P.

Thanks for your information and suggestion.
I will try to solve the mystery in China.
But, all know, in China it is very difficult to get information, especially the correct ones.

[tristar 500]

The doors on a Trident were different from the rest of the type. so it could be this door which is being shown.

The center door was a detactable type, in an emergency it was opened & dropped out. It was a bit smaller than the other doors.

There was a famous time at LHR when the cabin crew were alerted to a possible emergence evactuation after landing. On touchdown the crew opened the door, it fell out & the aircraft ran over it. It was then that it was found that the doors were not interchangable & it had to be rebuilt!!
Sorry for thread drift!!
tristar 500

[777fly]

Tristar500:
I believe you are referring to the overwing emergency exit doors. These had a central, normal size, oblong window in them. You can see this quite clearly in the second archive photograph of the Chinese marked aircraft.

[777fly]

Ion Berkeley:
Your photograph of the 'c' cockpit window is certainly similar in shape to the aperture in the wreckage photgraph, but it is much bigger and nevertheless a different shape altogether.
Oldwolf: The Trident 1C did not have a centre fuel tank. All fuel was carried in the wings and the only access to them was by way of the normal removal plates which can be seen removed in one of the archive photographs. I did not fly the Trident 1E, which may have had a centre tank. The Trident 2 certainly did have one, which held about 8000 kg of fuel, but there was no door, such as the one in question, on that aircraft either.

[Ocean Person]

Oldwolf;

The Military Museum in central Beijing had for many years a Trident standing in the open just inside the main gate. It was Chairman Mao Tze-tung's private aircraft. The general public could go onboard and look through the cabin but the door to the flight deck was locked. I was there a couple of months ago and noticed the Trident was missing and as the museum main building is undergoing renovations they may have moved it inside. Or they may have given it to the China Aviation Museum so the only way to locate it is to go and ask the museum people. This Trident is possibly of the same type as the one that crashed so if you can get a look at it and compare its windows with your photographs the problem can be solved. If you want technical details of the fuel tanks etc the only place to go is the China Aviation Museum.

If you do decide to visit the China Aviation Museum send me a PM before you go. Regards,

O.P.

[0ldwolf]

Hi，777fly,

You are really a great help! All your explanations are correct. Thank you very much!

When I saw a 1C service panel picture, I was curious that why it do not has central tank gauge! You solved this question!
1E do has a central tank. However, i'm not sure the "door" is from that tank. From 1E picture, I can see one door in the size and shape of wreckage in the ventral position just under the central tank. But it had no window and no pipes!
I really could not think up a place where is a need to have some pipes go through a "door" in a plane.

Someone has noticed me that the primer used in trident was all green, and the primer on the wreckage was brown, so the wreckage could not be from a trident. Is that correct?

[0ldwolf]

Hi, O.P.

It is obvious that the wreckage is unlikely from the surface part of trident, if it IS from trident. I doubt if it is useful to go Beijing just look at trident. One thing I'm sure, Mao did not have a private plane. He never took a plane to travel except in 1967 when his life under a emergent situation. But I will send you the information if i will go.

[0ldwolf]

Hi, 777fly,

I have another question:
Under emergent landing in an outfield, reverse thrust of trident should be used or not used. why?
That question also from Marshal Lin's crash. According to official report, his plane did not use reverse thrust during emergent landing.

Another one :p:
What is the lowest fuel trident fuel gauge can show?

I appreciate your help!

[Ocean Person]

Oldwolf;

I'm pretty sure those people at the Military Museum in Beijing will stick to their story that the Trident they have is Chairman Mao's aircraft. The interior is special VIP with only large well upholstered seats. The windows are adorned with frilly lace curtains and the oversized galley looks VIP. You could be correct in implying that the Chairman did not like to fly but it is news to me as I've never seen that in print.
Can't help with your questions as I dont know anything technical about the Trident. Possibly the only way to get to the bottom of this matter is to ask the Mogolian gent to take you to the site. Turn the venture into a bit of a holiday, should be very interesting. Regards,

O.P.

[Old and Horrified]

Oldwolf:

Its over 30 years since i flew the Trident, but my recollection is that there was only reverse on the two outer engines and we used it pretty much everywhere. In fact, the only time we used only reverse idle, would be on a long runway where we wanted to exit at the end, for example 10L at Heathrow.

Can't remember the fuel guage minimum.

[0ldwolf]

Hi，O.P.

Mao's last flight was in 1967, as I stated before. He was dorced to take a IL-18. He never took any flight in his life after that. The trident used his name to attract tourists. No plane in Chian was privat except the crashed 256 trident. By that time, Mao had refused to take plane, so Lin was the only one got this honour.

I would like to go to Mongolia, but Mongolians are also unbelievalble. Once they said they've got the "black box" of 256,and heard some fight on board! That is white lie! Anyway, thank you for the suggestions.

regards

[0ldwolf]

Hi, O. & H.

Thank you for your explanation. It is a longtime for 30 years.
Could you recall what is correct to do for the reverse in case you are forced to land some where other than a airfield ?

I know there was an accident in 30, June, 1966, concerning 9K-ACG (trident 1E) with a forced landing. I failed to find the accident report. Do you have any information about its reverse, as well as its gears? No one was killed in that accident, not like 256 accident which killed every one on board.

regards

[Trident Sim]

Oldwolf

...what is correct to do for the reverse in case you are forced to land some where other than a airfield ?...

The EMERGENCY LANDING & EVACUATION checklist on the Trident 1C called for:


All the engines to be shut down immediately on touchdown.


The Anti-Skid braking system to be selected OFF before touchdown.


Continuous, uninterrupted, braking to be used until the aircraft had stopped.


Therefore, by implication, reverse thrust should not have been used during the landing run, although, in theory, reverse thrust could have been used during the landing flare.


...What is the lowest fuel trident fuel gauge can show?...

The gauges would read down to Zero (empty) and were graduated in 100 kg increments.

The needles on the fuel gauges could show less than zero, and when the aircraft had no electrical power on, all the needles would drop to the “Six O’clock” position on the gauges, clearly below zero.

The quoted gauge tolerances were:


Inner Tank: Empty ± 30 kg, Full ± 200 kg


Outer Tank: Empty ± 15 kg, Full ± 80 kg


Centre Tank: Empty ± 60 kg, Full ± 300 kg (Trident 1E only, if fitted)


There was a low fuel level drill to be carried out whenever an inner tank dropped below 400 kg or an outer tank below 200 kg.


... see if any friends here can identify if this wreckage were from Trident and which part of this piece coming from...

I flew the Trident (all marks of them) for many years, and I tend to agree with 777fly in that I’m not convinced this piece of wreckage is from a Trident.

If it is, I don’t think it is an external door or hatch that would have been visible to a pilot doing an external pre-flight inspection.

However, the opinion of a Trident qualified ground engineer would be of much more use to you however than that of a pilot!


Best Regards

Trident Sim

[0ldwolf]

Hi, Trident Sim,
Thank you so much for your anwsering my questions.
I still have some more questions:
1. I would apreciate it if you could say something about the reason of shut down the reverse thrust on touch down.
2. Wold the pitch of the trident influence the accuracy of the fuel gauge?
3. That wreckage "door" picture was shot in Mongolia rural area. It is hard for them to get a fake piece of plane wreckage there. That is why I tend to believe it. I post another picture here:
http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=193
http://www.aviationphotoarchive.com/ZuluKiloBB2/download/file.php?id=193
4. I remember, there was a firefighting system in trident. What is its operational sequence? And, what is the media it uses?
Thank you again, and best regards
O.W.