Best way to recruit F.I's

[Big_Buddha36]

Hi all,

Need some advice on the best way to recruit F.I's.

Where I am at the moment is that I am looking at the work ahead and it tells me I need some extra F.I's to cover it.

Primarily, it's weekend work and our primary driver is to turn a large number of trail lessons into ppl students.

I dont have a massive advertising budget and timescales are very short.

There's plenty of flying hours for them, I'm just not sure the best way to get that message out.

Any ideas would be much appreciated

Bb

[mcgoo]

Where are you based?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Advertise on AFORS? (which is free)

Pay Pprune/Internet-Brands for a banner advert?

Phone up some of the better regarded FIC schools (WAC, On-track, Pilot Centre....) and ask if they can give you details, or pass on details of recent graduates they think are looking for jobs?

G

[offhandblackhand]

Robert Weaver is no doubt looking for a job!

[Aware]

Don't mention loads of trial lessons most will run a mile , keep that one under your hat ! If there qenuine people that want to learn to fly thats slightly different.

(unless trail is a new type of venture, best suited to 4 x 4s I think ,not aeroplanes, I would be interested sounds fun)

[gpn01]

Out of interest, what conversion rate (from trial lesson to PPL student) are you expecting the FI to achieve?

[Big_Buddha36]

The initial site is just outside Oxford (working on others). There is no expectation on conversion rates, but with such a large number of trials coming through the door, it's our aim to generate a longer-term interest.

My point is that I don't want to just process trials, I want help with converting to ppl. It's in my interest and of course, that of the instructor.

I mention the trials as most places are slow right now, but we're completely the reverse. We've got 6-7 hrs next sat and 4 sunday. What I want is F.I.'s willing to take this sort of load and help me build their own longer-term tuition. Whilst most work at the moment is weekend, that's simply down to lack of cover. I can't opening the doors during the week right now as I need the instructors - hence my call for help

Bb

[darn]

Try advertising in Flight Training News, not sure how much it costs but it's the type of thing a job-hunting FI would read.

[mad_jock]

just phone up the FII's of your choice and ask them if they have anyone that they reckon will be any good.

if you advertise you will get hundreds of CV's which you might actually use. You will then get another 100 or so that want to get them a visa and pay thier converstion costs to a UK license.

Out of the 100's you will have no really way of telling if they are useless or not. Mrs Poolie, Kev Rowel, ontrack will tell you if you are potentially employing a knob or not.

[stuclark]

What aircraft have you got?

[Big_Buddha36]

C150/pa28/pa38, also use TMG's

Use the tmg's for both trials and a popular route to the ppl(a) so I'd like to get the F.I's converted over at some point ( dual-trained)

[iburnthings]

Id bite your hand off for an FI job if I had my CPl and FI rating sorted. as I'm sure many others would.

[taff_lightning]

Might be worth stating weather you want restricted or unrestricted FIs. Seems to me there are lots of newly minted guys on the market. Can't comment on whether there lots of more experienced guys looking. I know the chap who runs the FI course at BCFT (Bournemouth) is very busy getting guys/gals qualified. Might be worth giving them a call.

My CFI did say to me the other day that although there are lots of people on the market. Good staff are still hard to come by. As always, referral is best.

Best of luck

[Big_Buddha36]

Thanks everyone for the help, but having joined the club only a few weeks ago, I was told the CAA are investigating the club and I discovered what I believe is a manipulation of time on the tech logs. I reported this to the owner yesterday, who promptly fired me, which was nice!

So no more recruiting from me.

[Big_Buddha36]

So, obviously, if you know anywhere that's looking for an experienced FI with enough integrity to lose their job over a breach of safety, please let me know!!

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

Ok I will bite whats wrong with advertising the jobs in the correct press , interviewing prospective candidates then offering the ones you like the job ? why is aviation so far behind the rest of the world ?????:ugh:

[mad_jock]

because you just get a overload of complete unknowns.

You get a large percentage that want to get a work visa and transfer thier licenses and think they are doing you a favour.

You then get a heap of folk that will apply anyway but have no interest what so ever about moving location. And even if they do they will get home sick when mummy doesn't tuck them up in bed with warm milk and does thier washing for them.

You then have a heap of FI's who have done the course but in reality they arn't suited to doing the job.

Then you have the very small amount that you would be interested in speaking to. Then its down to if thier personality fits.

Now even sifting through all the CV's will take alot of time, even more if you do the decent thing and reply to them.

Then there is the time wasters and incompetents you can't drag that out of them seeing them for 30 mins or more.

So the best bet is the opinion of someone you trust and knows the score and the knows the person over several weeks. Doesn't always work out mind. But you tend to get the right person without as much time and effort put in.

And to be honest other industrys are exactly the same with head hunting.

[MrAverage]

Big Buddha36

If you've any interest in some part-time PM me your location.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure that you are right Jock, I just can't see why that is any different to recruiting into any other professional job.

G

[mad_jock]

Thats because as much as people would like to believe its not a professional job.

The nearest thing you would get is a car driving instructor for PPL or HGV instructor for CPL.

Once you get away from thinking flying is special. Your just into employing any form of trainer be it IT, health and safety or any of the other vocational training out there. And it doesn't follow with flying that you are good at the job then move sideways into training because you have been seen to have a knack for it. Your just stuck into it when your experence level means your pretty much clueless.

The bit that instructing falls over with is that the very large majority of instructors its a means to an end to getting further up the career ladder which to be honest at the moment is broken in the middle.

Alot of people also forget is that the school is the sum of its instructors. You get even one that isn't up to grade and it pulls the whole place down very rapidly. Any falling out with the boss with a good/bad instructor that gets on with the punters also means a real hit to the cash flow. Which is why no doudt the OP got the boot as soon as they spoke up. The boss will want them out the door ASAP so that the slagging them off behind their back can commence to try and damage limit the fall out.

You get quite a few that have the gift of the gab with the punters but are utterly ****e at doing the job. This then bites you later when folk are taking 90-100 hours because all the instructor is interested in is getting 1000 hours in thier log book and the school reputation gets pulled down.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

It's not paid like a professional job unless your very busy I will grant you that but calling flight instructors unprofessional is a bit much, and I am sure driving instructors large and small might say the same ! new instructors do need lots of guidance and supervision when they start that's why they have "restricted" on their licence . I just think its a bit unfair if the only way you can get a job is to know the right people I know it helps but it does seem a bit draconian and before you ask I do have a flying job and have had for the last 10 years

[mad_jock]

I didn't call them unprofessional although there are alot out there doing the job fit that discription and the worrying thing is that they don't even know they are pish.

Just that the job isn't up there with what the majority think it is.

And currently they are pumping out over 175 FI ratings a year to CPL's for the last five years. There can't be more than 50-60 jobs going a year.

It is impossible to expect a CFI to wade through that many CV's we all know that having a CPL/FI(R) is no indication at all that they are going to be in anyway competent with real students.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I can't see that any of that makes recruiting a flying instructor special 'though Jock.

I learned a long time ago that if I don't treat the recruitment of anybody from the Cleaner to the Chief Engineer with utmost seriousness, eventually this will come back to bite me. An FI is the main customer facing company representative and needs to be the right person. It's professional insofar as it requires professionalism, a high degree of proficiency, and specific experience and qualifications.

It's also very well known that the honest opinions of reliable people or organisations are worth so much more than a CV alone, when trying to get the right person.

(One thing I do when I recruit is have a trusted, but visibly junior, member of the team show an applicant around before their interview, then after the interview, bring that member of the team into the interview room and have them give us their opinions of the person - what sort of questions, how they were to talk to informally, whether they seemed genuinely interested in what we do and how we do it.)

That you'll get hundreds of poorly qualified people applying for an FI job is hardly unique to any job application process - indeed it's pretty normal. Try recruiting a funded PhD student: I recall once recruiting somebody who had to have a first degree in aeronautics and be an EU citizen; about half my applicants were from people who either weren't UK/EU citizens, or who didn't have a degree in aero. At-least those you can just throw in the bin with a clear conscience: somebody without the courtesy to read the job advert properly, doesn't deserve an awful lot of courtesy back.

G

[mad_jock]

That is true G.

But by phoning a known good trainer you have already done most of your ground work because you have just tapped into years of experence knowing what works.

You also know that they have done the full course and have passed muster with that person. The test can never cover the complete picture with a FI.


Why get hundreds of applications your just going to bin anyway when you can phone 4 FII's up and get 10 folk for phone interview within a day and 4 in for face to face for one job.

If you don't do that your in for weeks of phone calls and emails and letters, most schools get 20 odd cv's through the post a week anyway. There is absoulutely no need to spend money advertising.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Fair point, use the FIC schools and the hungry applicants sending unsolicited CVs as a starting point.

G

[mad_jock]

Whats more to the point with this poster is...

There is a school near oxford with TMG who is runnning bent techlogs and is more than happy to sack instructors if they say anything about it.

Whats the advert going to be?

Requirement for a Flying instructor must be willing to falsify legal documents and compromise flight safety on a daily basis.

The school uses the grey areas of the law so although you will be expected to be self employed so we can sack you when we feel like it and not pay any employers national insurance you won't be allowed to have any other job. You are expected to be available 24h/365 days a year and are expected to give a months notice if leaving.


The thing is even if they did put that out you would still get applicants.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

ok I get your point now its just a shame we can't have a level playing ground for everyone oh wait that's what the CAA is meant to sort out :{

[Genghis the Engineer]

Requirement for a Flying instructor must be willing to falsify legal documents and compromise flight safety on a daily basis.

Well, to be fair, that's probably any FI weighing more than 10 stone prepared to teach on any 2 seat Cessna, with the occasionally U/S instrument.

G

[mad_jock]

U/S instruments is very rarely an issue, the required ones are relatively few.

As for the mass and balance. Yep spot on.

Anyway after a PM i suspect we might have a bun fight brewing about these techlog issues so will leave it at that.

I do feel strongly though about the current trend for all FI's to be self employed its wrong but after the court case it seems it is legal.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Anyway after a PM i suspect we might have a bun fight brewing about these techlog issues so will leave it at that.

Hard to think of many people, whatever their levels of integrity, who wouldn't make a fuss of being sacked apparently as a result of highlighting to their boss an apparent illegality in the operation. A bunfight sounds an inevitability to me.


A great many companies do, and have for years, done their best to employ a lot of "craftsman" type employees on a self employed basis. IT, university teaching, flying instruction, sales - all do it. I agree that in many ways it's poor treatment of people you rely upon, but it's common and nothing unique to flying.

There are advantages to the employee as well of-course, it makes it easier to arrange tax to your advantage, and to do bits and bobs for other people without any permission issues.

There are rules now that says if somebody has done most of their work for a single employer for several years, they have to be treated as employed, not self employed. I'm sure somebody around here who understands these rules much better than I do.

G

[mad_jock]

I don't know to be honest but from the PM I got its 50/50 who is being the fanny.

And in my experence it is more than likely going to turn out that both of them are being fannys.

[pablo]

An FI is the main customer facing company representative and needs to be the right person.

Gengis, you have a point there.

Also guys, I see a lot of you slam FI's for a number of reasons... but truth is there are some FI-I's that do not cut it. And I say this because I came across 2 very unprofessional mentors for my JAA and later on my FAA FI tickets.

Good thing about my FAA "mentor" is that as his record was very poor he was not allowed to prepare any more students for FI initial certificate. Unfortunately I didn't see this happen in Spain or Portugal.

And then employers/bosses many times are also guilty for not supervising their employees, and it's a vicious circle. But at the same time with the treatment they give to employees they set a very low standard. And sometimes it's difficult to be motivated and behave professionally when your employer is not treating you well, and the opposite also applies, it's very nice to work for an employer that respects you.

Nevertheless, if I'm ever in the position of having to hire employees I would use the recommendation of fellow colleagues whenever available.

I also liked Gengis' "good-cop/bad-cop" strategy of making 1 formal interview after a "less-formal" tour of the facilities.

[mad_jock]

Just to clarify after chatting to the CFI I don't think the tech log is bent.

The system they are using isn't your standard but it is legal the correct flight times are recorded for both maint and aircraft logbooks.

As for the bun fight, probation period, someone not fitting in etc.

As I suspected it could have been handled better but there you go.

I actually feel for the CFI he has a huge operation and dealing with that many alpha pilots will be a right pain in the bum. And to be honest as this is the first bun fight we have seen on pprune your doing quite a good job mate. :ok:

[Big_Buddha36]

Mad: I'm really not trying to be rude as you're only commenting on information you have been given, but youre simply unable to scratch the surface as to the whole deal at the club. I've seen the actual paperwork.

It's easy to remedy but for some reason, that wasn't understood and I lost my job

Bb