Hunting Somali Pirates From The Air [Archive]

zedder

22nd Feb 2012, 08:38

The CN-235 is fine for ISR down the Somali Coast (assuming the owning Nation is happy for it to fly there), and also patrolling the Internationally Recognised Transit Corridor. However, seraching for motherships, dhows and the go-fasts that operate from them throughout the vastness of the Indian Ocean, you need a platform that can react quickly to get to a hotspot of pirate activity, can reliably detect small targets on radar, can take good photographic images that can be used as evidence in court later, and can stay there as long as possible to reduce the AOP for when the surface asset comes steaming over the horizon (which is often 24 hrs+).

The RN 2* that was running the EU Op (Atalanta) when I was there, was very vocal whenever anyone from the UK Govt came to visit about the fact that he would have loved to have the Nimrod available to him!

fincastle84

22nd Feb 2012, 09:11

Hopefully the Canuks will make available their Update 3 Auroras. I was shown around one at ZX last June, a very impressive machine. In fact, almost as good as an MRA4...........................oh b*gger, I've forgotten, where did we store them? :ugh:

Milo Minderbinder

22nd Feb 2012, 09:20

Slightly off-topic question, but just how much could the Navy's training King Airs do in the way of maritime surveillance? They've got radars - presumably they can be used for "real" to some extent?

Fareastdriver

22nd Feb 2012, 09:50

A pirate skiff with four Evinrudes could probably outrun a King Air.

Airborne Aircrew

22nd Feb 2012, 11:12

can take good photographic images that can be used as evidence in court later

Why, is it going to land on and arrest the naughty rascals? :hmm:

Quicker, easier and cheaper to sink them on the spot.

SASless

22nd Feb 2012, 11:16

Court? Court? Why not Davy Jones's Locker and let Judge Neptune hold forth?

Apply Bible Teachings to them...."Live by the Sword....Die by the Sword!" I am sure the Quran has something similar somewhere in all its teachings of Peace and Love.

Jollygreengiant64

22nd Feb 2012, 11:17

Surely a herc dropping UK estate agent leaflets would suffice? Might as well expedite the process of homing them here- It's going to happen anyway...

FODPlod

22nd Feb 2012, 11:32

...Quicker, easier and cheaper to sink them on the spot.

Yes, that always works. :ugh:Indian navy destroyed Thai fishing boat, not pirate vessel: watchdog (http://news.theage.com.au/world/indian-navy-destroyed-thai-fishing-boat-not-pirate-vessel-watchdog-20081126-6iq2.html)
...But Noel Choong, head of the International Maritime Bureau (IMB) piracy reporting centre, said the vessel it attacked was a Thai-operated fishing boat which had been seized by Somali pirates off Yemen on November 18.

"We can confirm that the incident has taken place. One Thai crew member died during the attack by the Indian navy, on the same day the vessel was hijacked by Somali pirates," he told AFP.

Choong said that one Cambodian crewman was rescued by passing fishermen four days later, but 14 other crew on the Kiribati-registered vessel are still missing.

The downed boat was owned by the Thai-based Sirichai Fisheries and was being held by heavily armed pirates at the time the Indian frigate, the INS Tabar, opened fire. Sirichai Fisheries confirmed the deep sea trawler Ekawatnava 5 had been destroyed and said the crew were tied up when it opened fire...Many more captives have been killed by their supposed 'protectors' than by the Somali pirates themselves. Moreover, trigger-happy forces have killed more captives than pirates. And please, no one quote that bogusly misleading video about the Russians knowing how to treat pirates appropriately. All their captives have either been released or handed over to the few countries willing to prosecute them.

Despite what any gung-ho keyboard warriors feel, this is not a shooting war. It is a constabulary operation mandated by international law and governed by national ROE, much akin to the police enforcing the law on the UK mainland. Similar rules apply to the gathering of evidence and the use of firearms.

charliegolf

22nd Feb 2012, 12:40

Quicker, easier and cheaper to sink them on the spot.

The picky often call that murder. Can't imagine why.

CG

PTT

22nd Feb 2012, 12:57

Despite what any gung-ho keyboard warriors feel, this is not a shooting war. It is a constabulary operation mandated by international law and governed by national ROE, much akin to the police enforcing the law on the UK mainland. Similar rules apply to the gathering of evidence and the use of firearms.Well said. Piracy is a crime and they should be treated like criminals.

Airborne Aircrew

22nd Feb 2012, 15:20

The picky often call that murder. Can't imagine why.In many countries piracy is punishable by death. Thus this is known as justice...

Oh, and before we start bashing on about "moral high ground" and all that tosh I'll remind you, where terrorists, murderers, kiddie fiddlers, pirates and politicians are concerned, I have no morals. :E

atpcliff

22nd Feb 2012, 15:37

This will not work for stopping the pirates. The pirates with the money and power, who have control of the operations, live in NBO, JNB, Canada, and London. Some of them are also white.

Using an aircraft like this will not be practical in a city like London, or NBO.

To stop the pirating, then need to imprison all of the pirates who control the operation, and shut off the money flow into Somalia.

A good start would be to internationally recognize Somaliland, and use it as a base to pacify Somalia, while they imprison all of the pirate heads that are making most of the money.

cliff
KGRB

Willard Whyte

22nd Feb 2012, 16:04

This should work too.
http://xe9.xanga.com/68ff7b04c9330272371085/m217224437.jpg

BEagle

22nd Feb 2012, 17:05

WW, that's a photo of Project Baker, the second Operation Crossroads Bikini Atoll test and which involved an underwater detonation.

Surprisingly the Prinz Eugen, which being used as a weapons effect test item, survived the explosion despite being only 2000 yards from the wepaon. This was the second test wich the Prinz Eugen had survived, the first being Project Able, a low-level atmospheric test at Bikini Atoll, the ship being only 1200 yards from ground zero..... She later sank under tow on the way to Kwajalein a year later.

So would blowing pirate boats away with bombs even work?

And for all those who were once 'involved in certain activities' and might have wondered what SUPA stood for, it was 'SUpport for Project Able'!

Willard Whyte

22nd Feb 2012, 17:55

No doubt an air burst would work better. I just like the picture of boats and a bloody big bomb.

PTT

22nd Feb 2012, 18:45

In many countries piracy is punishable by death. Thus this is known as justice...UK:
The Piracy Act 1837 (7 Will 4 & 1 Vict c 88) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It abolished the death penalty for most offences of piracy, but created a new offence often known as piracy with violence, which was punishable with death. This offence still exists in the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland, but is no longer punishable by death in either country. Piracy Act 1837 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_Act_1837)

US: In the United States, criminal prosecution of piracy is authorized in the U.S. Constitution, Art. I Sec. 8 cl. 10:
The Congress shall have Power ... To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
Title 18 U.S.C. § 1651 states:
Whoever, on the high seas, commits the crime of piracy as defined by the law of nations, and is afterwards brought into or found in the United States, shall be imprisoned for life.

It's not justice in either country, apparently.

500N

22nd Feb 2012, 18:55

Have the UK actually taken any pirates back to the UK for prosecution
or have they handed them over to other countries ?

I believe the US have taken a few back, I can remember at least one.

air pig

22nd Feb 2012, 19:57

Can't we let he Russian's deal with them. Reputedly a choice between a short trip on a boat or a long trip to gulag, no questions asked.

Pirates, only way to treat them is on the end of a yardarm, but must miss all that delicate electronic equipment.

Regards

Air pig

500N

22nd Feb 2012, 20:05

What about keelhauling them ?:O

davejb

22nd Feb 2012, 20:16

It's known as justice IF the pirate has been tried in court prior to execution, otherwise it's generally referred to as 'state sanctioned murder' to execute without trial.

Just being picky, like, but you must trust politicians a damn sight more than I do if you are willing to let them sanction execution without trial.

500N

22nd Feb 2012, 20:21

Question for those who know the law.

The US sent in SEALS to shoot the 3 prates holding a US Citizen hostage.
Now the US would tell anyone who questioned it to nick off and MYOB
but where does this fall legally considering it was in international waters.

Justified on the basis of terrorism because they were holding a hostage ?

What about if they stormed a ship being held by pirates and the crew
were being held hostage but were locked in the safe room ?

Airborne Aircrew

22nd Feb 2012, 20:26

PTT:

It's not justice in either country, apparently.

I'm glad that's cleared up then... Just two countries in the world... It should fix all the visa/passport and currency issues.. :rolleyes:

Airborne Aircrew

22nd Feb 2012, 20:28

Davejb:

Justice has absolutely nothing to do with courts of law.

As to politicians... You'll notice they appear on my list... :ok:

air pig

22nd Feb 2012, 22:34

If we tried pirates in the UK they would claim asylum when they came out of prison, send them to the US, know how to sentence people, fifty years in a supermax. The Russians have set them free into a boat that suddenly blew up, must have been poor fuel or poor seamanship obviously. :E

Regards

Air pig

SASless

22nd Feb 2012, 22:51

It's known as justice IF the pirate has been tried in court prior to execution, otherwise it's generally referred to as 'state sanctioned murder' to execute without trial.

Sorry Chum.....it is justice if they are shot out of hand upon being apprehended. Otherwise it is a Criminal Justice Proceeding if it involves a Court. Law is administered in Court....not Justice....that is done on the spot.

air pig

22nd Feb 2012, 23:20

Thread last year about Russians and pirates in military aircrew. Sort can't link.

Regards

Air pig

NutLoose

23rd Feb 2012, 00:13

I would release all captured Pirates, some little village in the middle of land locked Afghanistan would seem an ideal place.

thunderbird7

23rd Feb 2012, 04:24

As it happens, I believe we actually ARE doing something about pirates - see here. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/seychelles/9097009/Britains-anti-piracy-conveyor-belt-stretches-from-Somalia-to-Seychelles-and-back.html)

However, to suggest that a broad based UK Maritime Patrol capability is better served by a CN-235 is slightly naive. The whole point of a maritime capability is to cover a whole range of scenarios - anti-piracy or as it might be called 'Tapestry/ASUW' may be flavour of the month right now, but what do you use next week when the Iranians send some subs out to cause trouble somewhere else? (http://www.worldnewstribune.com/2012/02/19/as-iran-ships-dock-at-russian-controlled-syrian-port-u-s-sixth-fleet-and-turkey-on-alert/)

But hey! Different budget, who cares? Lets get back to Aircrew Rations.

Rosco22

23rd Feb 2012, 07:49

The captain's name is FLTLT Blunt?
:D

NURSE

23rd Feb 2012, 07:54

The Royal Navy is deploying the Maritime patrol fleet have seen footage of Merlin and Lynx on patrol of somalia.

Victor Inox

23rd Feb 2012, 08:13

The best way to combat pirates is to deny them access to their chosen prey, i.e. fend them off with the necessary deployment of ordnance.

Their is no need to re-invent the wheel - there is a century-old method known to all and sundry in dealing with piracy, it just needs to be employed properly and without the involvement of tax-payer funded human rights lawyers.

The situation off the Somali coast is a straightforward case of deploying maritime force, but only when vessels are involved that fly the flag of the countries providing naval protection. We certainly do not need to protect any ships flying flags of convenience.

Biggus

23rd Feb 2012, 08:49

thunderbird 7,

Possibly naive, but certainly more affordable than your alternative....which proved so expensive that it no longer exists, and might possibly never do so again!

Also a reasonable capability in a variety of roles:

CN-235 Persuader (http://www.airbusmilitary.com/Surveillance/CN235Persuader.aspx)

About those rations..... the rot set in many years ago when DCS disappeared!

Siggie

23rd Feb 2012, 08:52

Rosco 22,

I do hope that it wasn't just the BBC that got his name wrong, it would be nice if someone on the crew has stitched him up.

Can't wait for old 'Blunty' to return safe and sound so we can present him with his new name patch, coffee mug etc etc.

Priceless!

PTT

23rd Feb 2012, 10:26

Airborne Aircrew:
PTT:
It's not justice in either country, apparently.
I'm glad that's cleared up then... Just two countries in the world... It should fix all the visa/passport and currency issues.. :rolleyes:
If you spend more time researching the issue and less time deciding which sarcastic smiley to use you'd know that piracy in international waters is punishable under the jurisdiction of the nation who capture the pirates:
One of the oldest, clearest and least controversial rules of international law is that any country can prosecute any pirates they happen to apprehend. Piracy and International Law (http://www.globallawforum.org/ViewPublication.aspx?ArticleId=96)
So that makes UK and US law rather relevant.

Airborne Aircrew

23rd Feb 2012, 10:59

So that makes UK and US law rather relevant. Only insofar as you ignore every other country in the world. Why didn't you mention Russia's treatment of pirates?

Ten suspected Somali pirates captured by the Russian navy last week may have perished after their release, a defence source in Moscow has told reporters.
Marines seized them during a dramatic operation to free a hijacked Russian oil tanker far from shore, killing an 11th suspect in the gun battle.
They were released in an inflatable boat without navigational equipment.
Within an hour, contact was lost with the boat's radio beacon, the defence source said.
"It seems that they all died," the unnamed source was quoted as saying by Russia's Interfax news agency.
Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8675978.stm)

I'm quite sure that the "unnamed source" knew a little more than he was letting on.

Simple, efficient and at the cost of a worn out rubber dinghy... and maybe some 7.62x39 ... Justice...

PTT

23rd Feb 2012, 12:10

I'm well aware of that incident. I'm also well aware that neither you (according to your profile) nor I either live in or are Russian, and I certainly wouldn't want Russian law to apply to me. Would you want it to apply to you? I don't care what the Russians do; I do care what my government does.

Airborne Aircrew

23rd Feb 2012, 13:09

PTT:

I certainly don't wish to be subject to Russian law. But, at the same time, I'm not carrying out acts of piracy in international waters... ;)

I wish my government would treat people like this in the harshest of fashions rather than coddle them and shower them with rights they don't deserve and actively deprive others of. It's similar to "Peace through superior firepower"...

PTT

23rd Feb 2012, 14:47

Then you need to lobby to get the law changed rather than advocate acting outside of it. Acting outside the law is what the pirates themselves are doing, too.

Fareastdriver

23rd Feb 2012, 14:51

PTT. I worked for fifteen years in China and was subject to Chinese Law. I have not had so much personal liberty since I left.

PTT

23rd Feb 2012, 14:54

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/Point_over_your_head.jpg
(perhaps a tad harsh, but still :P )

Airborne Aircrew

23rd Feb 2012, 15:24

PTT:

Then you need to lobby to get the law changed rather than advocate acting outside of it.You should probably take that graphic in your post above and direct it towards yourself. If you skim back through our conversation you'll note that, at no time, have I said that the UK or US should carry out such an act. I even went as far as to state "I wish my government would treat people like this in the harshest of fashions...". I have kept making the point that there are other countries capable and able to to the job the right way... You seem to have missed that point by a mile... :ugh:

Fareastdriver

23rd Feb 2012, 16:36

That childish cartoon may have been directed at me. What I mean about personal liberty is:
The liberty to walk down a street at any time, anywhere, day or night free from the fear of getting mugged or assaulted.
The liberty of knowing that your children can go to school and return by themselves without the fear of the being abducted.
The liberty of knowing that your female friends can walk home at night without the fear of being molested or raped.
The liberty of being able to enjoy yourself in your own way as long as you do not impinge on others enjoying themselves without some PC correct law stopping you.

Some people call those liberties Human Rights.

The sole example of modern piracy in China was about a decade ago when a Hong Kong/Macau ferry crossing the Pearl River was intercepted. They were caught and the inevitable bullet went into the back of their heads. There has not been a problem since.

PTT

23rd Feb 2012, 16:55

AA - apologies for misconstruing your intent there. However, I do disagree with your principle entirely. Justice must be seen to be done, not vengeance. This is not some fairy story where the characters are black and white.

Fareastdriver - not the place to go into China's human rights record, I think. Glad you had a nice time there though...

glojo

23rd Feb 2012, 19:18

I think detecting these 'pirates' in open water is the easiest part of the operation and I accept the word 'easy' is relative but the reality is that all you usually have is 'three men in a boat' armed with guns. Is carrying a loaded firearm on a fishing boat in International waters illegal? Finding the boat out at sea is one thing, getting a successful prosecution without a complainant prepared to give evidence in the country that is holding the alleged pirates is quite another.

These pirates are based in what is a lawless state and Cheri Blair will be the first to defend these innocent seafarers that are merely carrying RPG's, AK47's etc for self protection. :*:mad:

The problem as far as I understand it is the victim has to lay the complaint and the flagged country of the attacked vessel then has to deal with the arrested pirates. We are ALL innocent until proved beyond a reasonable doubt to be guilty of an offence and these pirates are just as entitled to that as any one of us.

I hate how we are being made fools of, I hate to see ships held to ransom by these individuals but I WILL NOT agree with some of the silly suggestions being voiced on this thread.

The Russian story is a good story, but just like most good stories it begins with 'Once upon a time'.

Solve the problem in Somalia and then the problem on the high seas can hopefully be eradicated.

John

Airborne Aircrew

23rd Feb 2012, 19:54

Solve the problem in Somalia and then the problem on the high seas can hopefully be eradicated.

Sorry Glojo but you sound like a candidate for Miss World... Throw in world peace why don't you, it won't make the overall problem any worse. ;)

thunderbird7

23rd Feb 2012, 20:27

As with all these problems, solving them at source is the only way to a permanent solution. Blowing the s**t out of them is easy but doesn't cure the reason they are there in in the first place. How else did we solve Northern Ireland? What about talking to the Taliban to solve AFG? Wishing the Pakistanis would sort their s**t out and decide which side they are on? Ooops! I digress.

PTT

23rd Feb 2012, 21:36

Sorry Glojo but you sound like a candidate for Miss World... Throw in world peace why don't you, it won't make the overall problem any worse. Dismissive nonsense (see what I did there?).

Any solution must be economic, since it is economic pressure which is driving them to criminality.

Airborne Aircrew

23rd Feb 2012, 21:51

PTT:

So, are we supposed to keep throwing money at the situation? It all goes down a very corrupt drain. So, let's rethink... Quit giving all that money to Africa and let them sort themselves out. The ones that deal with the piracy issue might get back on the aid train, the rest get naff all. See how long it takes for them to take control. Oh, and don't worry about the morality of what goes on there... It's not our business.

glojo

23rd Feb 2012, 22:05

Sorry Glojo but you sound like a candidate for Miss World... Throw in world peace why don't you, it won't make the overall problem any worseThank you so much for that hamlet moment... You have got me day dreaming of standing in the midst of multiple candidates for Miss World!! :O:O:ok:

Don't get me wrong.. If pirates are caught in the act of attacking a foreign flagged ship then they are in VERY deep doo doos... If they are putting innocent people in fear of their lives, then they are in deep doo doos.

However the sad reality is that every nation involved in policing that area are regularly having to simply release these unsavoury characters solely because of the lack of any real proof that would stand up in any court of law. :)

These are just a very few examples of what is really happening on station, so yes hunting these pirates from the air would be nice but they have to be filmed in the act, and not the act some of you might be thinking about!!! :bored:;)

The Royal Navy may be forced to release suspected pirates captured in the Indian Ocean because no country is willing to prosecute them. A team of Royal Marines arrested 14 Somalis on a hijacked fishing boat on Saturday and found rocket-propelled grenades, assault rifles and explosives.
Kenya and the Seychelles have tried suspected pirates in the past but both have refused to take the latest captives because their court systems are swamped. The men caught on Saturday joined two other suspected pirates already under arrest on a second Royal Navy vessel. The American, Danish and Spanish navies are between them holding a further 46 men captured during anti-piracy patrols over the last six weeks.
The U.S. Navy released nine of the 16 suspected pirates it was holding on a ship for the last few weeks, according to defense officials.
The pirates were released because the Navy did not have enough evidence to hand them over to Kenya for prosecution in court, in accordance with a recent agreement between the United States and Kenya, the officials explained.
ESPNS PATIÑO’s Commanding Officer, who experienced a pirate attack on his ship in January, decided to launch one of the helicopters to investigate and stop the skiff. After sending the boarding team, and conducting a proper investigation, there some evidences were observed that related the skiff and people onboard to piracy. Although the four suspect pirates claimed to be fishermen, no a single tool for fishing was found. The suspect pirates were examined and questioned, but as they could not be related to a recent pirate attack, they were provided with water and food, and released with the skiff.ESPS = Spanish warship

Airborne Aircrew

23rd Feb 2012, 22:37

Don't get me wrong.. If pirates are caught in the act of attacking a foreign flagged ship then they are in VERY deep doo doos... If they are putting innocent people in fear of their lives, then they are in deep doo doos. In the jurisdiction I live within, if I, as a "reasonable person", am in fear of my life or serious bodily harm I am allowed to react with deadly force with no necessity to retreat. As I type this I am about 2 yards away from a 9mm Sig with 15 hollow point rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber.* Why do we allow unarmed and unprotected ships ply their trade in these waters? Taking them to a court after they have destroyed a family/families lives is not right. Arm the ships would help.

* The Sig is in a Bio-safe... It requires my or my wife's fingerprint to be read before it opens... My daughter nor anyone else can access the safe without me allowing the safe to learn their fingerprint. My daughter is 5, it will be a couple of years or more before she is granted access... ;)

For those who might equate this with a lifestyle that is lived "in fear" I can assure you it is not. I live in an area with practically zero crime... Rolling through a Stop sign excites our local police... :rolleyes: But I'd rather be ready for the worst than wishing for a miracle if things go wrong.

PTT

23rd Feb 2012, 22:53

Why do we allow unarmed and unprotected ships ply their trade in these waters? Taking them to a court after they have destroyed a family/families lives is not right. Arm the ships would help.We do: BBC News - Somali piracy: Armed guards to protect UK ships (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15510467)
I agree this is entirely the correct response, but there are fears it will lead to an arms race, and I can see those being valid. Worst (or at least "very bad") case, pirates will start carrying something with which that can actually seriously cripple or sink such a ship should it not surrender, leading to potentially disastrous environmental consequences. While arming ships may work now, what do we do when the pirates become better armed in such a manner?

Airborne Aircrew

23rd Feb 2012, 22:53

Wow, I'm impressed.You shouldn't be. It's a sad fact of life that there are people out there that will do utterly disgusting things...

As an example, a couple of years ago, a man, his wife and daughter were the victims of a home invasion just 25 miles away in a nice quiet township. The wife and small child were killed horribly. He died by having bleach forced down his throat.

Own a gun????? Don't own a gun????

I'd rather not watch my wife and daughter die horribly as I watch helplessly only to be murdered in the worst possible way...

Your mileage may vary. :rolleyes:

Do I live in fear? No. Am I prepared? Yes... If you fly/flew aircraft you'll understand the concept... :ok:

Airborne Aircrew

23rd Feb 2012, 23:05

Ok.. Let me rephrase...

If you were a Boy Scout you'd understand the concept...

SASless

23rd Feb 2012, 23:57

AA....you are wrestling a Pig here.....you are only going to get all dirty and irritate the Pig.

Amazing things hand guns are....multi-lingual all of them!

My .45 Colt Combat Commander speaks Navajo!

Two Braves decided to relieve me of my money and car keys one afternoon out in the middle of nowhere on the their Reservation. I had given them some food, gasoline for their car....then they decided to take it a step further....and one pulled a knife and demanded money.

I pulled the ol' Colt from under my coat....informed them I was not a one man social welfare agency but was really interested in playing "Cowboy and Indians". As they had brung a knife to a gun fight....they elected to leave hastily.

Airborne Aircrew

24th Feb 2012, 01:26

SASless:

Sir, you denigrate the proud species of the Suidae family...

They are smarter, cleaner and better groomed than my esteemed foe KF... He may look like one, walk like one and grunt like one - but he is no pig. :E

When I was nine or ten years old the proud members of Lord Baden Powell's organization taught me to "Be Prepared"... A lesson sadly lost on the simpering, lily-livered, metrosexuals of today.

Agaricus bisporus

24th Feb 2012, 09:19

Anyway, back to the Pirates. The only certain solution is undoubtably economic, military means won't work all that well against Somalis. one of the most warlike people on the planet.

The solution is blindingly obvious. Stop bribing the pirates to continue being pirates with tens of Millions of dollars - that is simply criminally irresponsible insanity and is the sole and only cause of the problem. They only do it because we pay them to do it. End ransoms. End the piracy.
End of the problem.
And, incedentally, end voluntarily funding Al Shabab(?) a hideously unpleasant international terrorist organization because there is little doubt that they are behind this as a means of procuring the funds they need for their evil anti-western purposes.

Just how stupid can we be?:ugh:

And to pre-empt the inevitable hand-wringing dimwits, no I wouldn't like it if it were my family being held to ransom but you can't solve the problem any other way. Omelette = breaking eggs. Do we want to end the piracy or not? Your choice.

Airborne Aircrew

24th Feb 2012, 12:06

AB:

End ransomsThe problem is there's always one or two countries whose politicians still see the return of a few hostages and a boat full of oil as a vote getter.

What will happen when the pirates realize that they won't get money for the return of the oil? I know what I'd do... Find a bigger "hot button" and engage in environmental terrorism, "Pay me $10M or I'll dump the oil along your coastline". Job's a good 'un...

We can't beat them. We can't buy them out. We can't ask them to stop. We can eradicate them. Make piracy a certain death activity.

atpcliff

24th Feb 2012, 12:48

And, incedentally, end voluntarily funding Al Shabab(?) a hideously unpleasant international terrorist organization because there is little doubt that they are behind this as a means of procuring the funds they need for their evil anti-western purposes.

Plenty of the pirates are white christians: They are in it to make the money, period. They don't have any ideology. Cut off the money flow by putting all the current head pirates in prison, then cut off the money flow into Somalia....both by shutting down the money pipeline, and by stabilizing Somalia...that will stop the piracy.

cliff
GRB

Duncan D'Sorderlee

24th Feb 2012, 13:01

Cliff,

"Plenty of the pirates are white Christians."

Whilst not disputing this, can you offer any evidence? I've only ever seen rather dishevelled 'ethnic' Somalis. Perhaps that looks better on BBC/Sky/CNN.

Duncs:ok:

Fareastdriver

24th Feb 2012, 13:09

There was a problem with piracy in the Carribbian in the sixties. Not highjacking but stop and rob mostly for V&A items like electronics, personal items and perfumes. This led to a lot of it being transported by air which gave a second lease of life to Constellations and DC6s converted to freighters.
In the harbour at Belize I saw a tramp freighter being unloaded. On its foredeck was what looked like a Bofors anti aircraft gun on a plinth with its barrel parked below the horizontal.
I do not think they had any trouble.

atpcliff

24th Feb 2012, 13:28

I've only ever seen rather dishevelled 'ethnic' Somalis.

They only show the guys on the boats on the news. They are the pawns. The heads of the pirate organizations live in NBO, JNB, London and Canada. If their faces were on TV, then they would be arrested that day.

Interpol needs to find the money flow from the Pirate Heads into Somalia, track the Head Pirates down and put them in prison, and shut off the money flow.

It is similar to the Barbary Pirates. The money behind the scenes belonged to the Heads of the Ottoman Empire, and the governments along the Barbary Coast. They never went in the boats and did any physical pirating.

Ironically, a lot of the Barbary Pirates...the ones in the boats....came from England, The United Provinces (Netherlands today), Spain, etc.

cliff
KGRB

Duncan D'Sorderlee

24th Feb 2012, 13:44

Cliff,

Roger. I see where you are coming from; I had assumed that you had information regarding the actual perpetrators, rather than those believed to be behind the scheme. That's why I asked!

Duncs:ok:

thunderbird7

24th Feb 2012, 14:31

Blimey! I thought this thread was going to be a discussion about the usefulness of MPA and its turned into a dick dangling contest over who has the biggest gun! Well, my son has about 5 different Nerf guns, so beat that! :cool:

Party Animal

24th Feb 2012, 15:35

I'm still trying to get my around AA's claim of zero crime..... in DETROIT!!! :D

Airborne Aircrew

24th Feb 2012, 16:05

I'm still trying to get my around AA's claim of zero crime..... in DETROIT!!!I don't live "downtown" but if I put the name of the township I live in you'd have no clue where I live. Just like if you tell me you live in Ash Vale I might not know where that is but if you said near Farnborough I might.

You should come here to Detroit and see for yourself though. It has a dismal reputation but I've lived in Washington DC and just north of Philadelphia. I can assure you that south east DC and the abutting areas of Prince Georges county Maryland are far worse than Detroit. Then there's north Philly. :sad: Both are very scary places to take a wrong interstate exit into.

I have lived and worked in Metropolitan Detroit since 1993 and have yet to witness any violence. I lived in DC and north of Philly for a total of 4 years and have seen numerous acts of violence there. You can't always judge a place by it's 40(?) year old reputation.

Just to keep it on topic. Ship the pirates to Philly and DC, they wouldn't last 5 minutes. ;)

Mach Two

24th Feb 2012, 17:44

Me, I am sat by my keyboar

You've never heard of English grammar then?

Courtney Mil

24th Feb 2012, 17:47

Thank you, M2. Quite right.

500N

24th Feb 2012, 18:16

KF
"You've never heard of Google maps then?"

It might show you where he lives but not the level of crime.
Every town / city has it's bad spots.

Look at Las Vegas, if you only ever go to the hotel and stay on the
main part of the strip, you would think what a great, crime free place !

And what's with your question in post #63 ????

Milo Minderbinder

24th Feb 2012, 18:45

Detroit area crime map

Detroit, MI Crime Map - Showing Crimes in Detroit - Crime Statistics, Alerts and Reports - Crime Stops Here (http://spotcrime.com/mi/detroit)

Fareastdriver

24th Feb 2012, 19:30

Like all cities; you live in the right part of town you are OK. I would imagine the quiet parts are where the gun is in the drawer and the noisy parts are where the gun is in the street.

Property prices are good. You can buy something for the monthly rent in London.

Biggus

24th Feb 2012, 20:01

Any chance of renaming this thread - the original one is misleading...

Airborne Aircrew

24th Feb 2012, 20:11

Milo:

Here's Philly (http://spotcrime.com/pa/philadelphia).

And Prince George's County (http://spotcrime.com/md/prince+george%27s+county)

You decide...

Milo Minderbinder

24th Feb 2012, 20:17

AA
I'm not comparing anything. If you're happy with where you live, thats all that matters.
All I was doing was pointing out that while Google maps don't have crime stats, other mapping sites do. So if anyone wants to get into a pissing contest of "your place is less scary than mine" then they've got something to use to find the facts

Airborne Aircrew

24th Feb 2012, 20:23

Milo:

Ahhh... OK... Neat site, never seen it before... Thanks...:ok:

Two's in

24th Feb 2012, 20:51

So whose crime stat's are they? The mayoral team working for re-election, the Police Chief trying to get additional funding, or the Chamber of Commerce working on a new tourism drive? Everyone has a different view of "crime", especially if you are a victim. When Disraeli came up with "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" it was already an old idea. The disclaimer from that site is boiler plate "you can't sue me if it all goes wrong" but nervertheless, they are hardly standing by their word!

SpotCrime.com Disclaimer: The data made available here has been modified for use from its original source. Neither SpotCrime.com nor our data sources make any claims as to the completeness, accuracy or content of any data contained in this application; makes any representation of any kind, including, but not limited to, warranty of the accuracy or fitness for a particular use; nor are any such warranties to be implied or inferred with respect to the information or data furnished herein. The data is subject to change as modifications and updates are complete. It is understood that the information contained in the web feed is being used at one's own risk. The sources for the "crime" reports on our maps and website are police incident reports and other news sources. The alleged perpetrators have not necessarily been tried or found guilty of any crime.

glojo

25th Feb 2012, 09:50

They only show the guys on the boats on the news. They are the pawns. The heads of the pirate organizations live in NBO, JNB, London and Canada. If their faces were on TV, then they would be arrested that day.

Interpol needs to find the money flow from the Pirate Heads into Somalia, track the Head Pirates down and put them in prison, and shut off the money flow.

It is similar to the Barbary Pirates. The money behind the scenes belonged to the Heads of the Ottoman Empire, and the governments along the Barbary Coast. They never went in the boats and did any physical pirating.

Ironically, a lot of the Barbary Pirates...the ones in the boats....came from England, The United Provinces (Netherlands today), Spain, etc.

An excellent point that may well sadly fall on deaf ears.. Does anyone seriously believe that those pirates we see who are living in mud huts have the means, the know how, the capability and even knowledge to arrange the transferring of large sums of money into bank accounts that then can be easily accessed?

Not paying ransoms is so easy to say and in theory I totally support that stance, but if it were the children of a President, Prime Minister or even a politician, do we seriously for one milli-second believe they would be treated in the same way as Joe Bloggs, ransoms will always be paid but not I doubt for those without power or influence.

We need our heads of state to ALL agree to take a stance, to mount a combined operation and show the World this type of behaviour will not be tolerated. Instead we are happy to spend billions of dollars trying to police a vast area of ocean with at least one hand tied behind our backs and the other hand making excuses...